In fact he knows so much about it he couldn't effin' care less how much of a pile of shit he drops on someone else's hunt after they bother to take to time to post a hunt report.

Yes I have a hair up my ass about this and here's why.

We all can't be expected to be as knowledgeable as Larry Shores, Mike Jines, Jerry Dollar, Steve Ahrenberg, and the many others with probably over a hundred safaris between them.

Hell my first couple Safari's turned out fine but luck probably had far more to do with it then my level of do diligence at the time. The previous hunter in the Namibia location I hunted got offered a "cattle killing Lion" for $6,000 with no increase in day rates or length of Safari. That's why I can see the "other side" apparently Steve can not.

So Michael Spud Webb goes on a lion hunt and has a very close encounter and wants to share it. He does so on a hunt report. He really should have known better than doing that on this forum.

After all we have experts here. Steve Shakari undoubtedly believing himself to be the end all of authority on African Lion hunting will surely quickly weigh in unless maybe your Lion is shot in Zambia, Tanzania, or Maybe Zim. Of course I guess they could always truck a Lion up to ZIM from RSA eh Steve?

Maybe we ought to totally avoid Africa completely then.

Hey Steve how about posting up some pictures of some of the Lions you've guided hunters to before you retired.

I'd love to see the AR regulars help you age them you pompous ass! I DOUBT YOU HAVE THE BALLS TO DO THAT DO YOU?
THREAD

WHOAA! i got no posts on that thread or dog in this fight. to each his own, as long as it is legal and everyone is on the same page

Jim, possibly an alternative way to look at it; Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on the opinion or the acceptance of others regarding the OP's hunt?

For me, hunting is a private or personal experience. My pleasure is in my adventures afield, not what my AR friends think about my report. This ain't a sport that I keep score in order to best or even compete with my peers, so although I would rather they find my posts informative or interesting, it wouldn't ruffle my feathers if I was roundly condemned for something I posted on the internet. (lets keep that statement in the context of the thread you mention, not extrapolate.)

It seems to me AR is a valuable forum for the public discussion of outdoor topics. If the OP didn't want to stand for the possibility of objections to his post, he of course had the option of not. I find it sort of funny that more than one of the AR members will go to lengths to make sure we all know they won't be posting hunting reports here, but in the same paragraph will blather ad nauseum about all their experience, i.e., hunt reports. Which is it guys? You don't want to share your experiences with us or you do?

If we're comfortable enough with what we did and are bored enough to spend the time to write a report, why not? If you had a great time, it really doesn't matter what a Keyboard Commando half a world or half a block away thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Jim, possibly an alternative way to look at it; Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on the opinion or the acceptance of others regarding the OP's hunt?

For me, hunting is a private or personal experience. My pleasure is in my adventures afield, not what my AR friends think about my report. This ain't a sport that I keep score in order to best or even compete with my peers, so although I would rather they find my posts informative or interesting, it wouldn't ruffle my feathers if I was roundly condemned for something I posted on the internet. (lets keep that statement in the context of the thread you mention, not extrapolate.)

It seems to me AR is a valuable forum for the public discussion of outdoor topics. If the OP didn't want to stand for the possibility of objections to his post, he of course had the option of not. I find it sort of funny that more than one of the AR members will go to lengths to make sure we all know they won't be posting hunting reports here, but in the same paragraph will blather ad nauseum about all their experience, i.e., hunt reports. Which is it guys? You don't want to share your experiences with us or you do?

If we're comfortable enough with what we did and are bored enough to spend the time to write a report, why not? If you had a great time, it really doesn't matter what a Keyboard Commando half a world or half a block away thinks.

Hi Scott,

I think the rub comes from guys who post hunt reports in their first few posts here on AR. I can remember quite a few that were in fact post number one.

A hunter, just back from Africa, getting a Lion charge on his first safari, probably was jumping out of his skin to tell everyone and anyone who would listen.

I can't help but think about Randall's constant (Crazyhorseconsulting)call for hunters to unite. We seem to eat our own at every chance. I really don't know why.

Do we as you say, have thin skin? Perhaps that's part of it.

I know Lions seem to be the common denominator on this subject though. Personally, I would hesitate to post a Lion picture here. Even a stud lion like the one Sullivan just put up draws criticism for various reasons.

I don't think Stave did it with any malice. I think he was practicing "tough love" if anything.

Should he have just sat on his hands? Who am I to say. I probably would have, but thats just me.

Steve

All Steve did state FACTS as pertaining to this so called "hunt".

The outfitter who posted it knew exactly what he was doing.

Are you suggesting that we all keep quiet when someone tries posting something which without any doubt is not correct?

I have no objection to anyone hunting anything, in any manner, as long as it is legal in that country.

But, to portray a farm bred lion, taken off a game reserve because it was killing too many animals and claim it to be a wild lion is just plain wrong!

And all this complaining about why us hunters are not united does not make sense either.

How do we unite?

In agreeing with someone doing something and claiming it to be something else?

State your opinion, and give your reason, and be honest, and bear the consequences.

Isn't that how "freedom" is supposed to be?

Freedom comes with responsibility, and that applies to everyone, Steve included.

And ..... We're off!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
All Steve did state FACTS as pertaining to this so called "hunt".

The outfitter who posted it knew exactly what he was doing.

Are you suggesting that we all keep quiet when someone tries posting something which without any doubt is not correct?

I have no objection to anyone hunting anything, in any manner, as long as it is legal in that country.

But, to portray a farm bred lion, taken off a game reserve because it was killing too many animals and claim it to be a wild lion is just plain wrong!

And all this complaining about why us hunters are not united does not make sense either.

How do we unite?

In agreeing with someone doing something and claiming it to be something else?

State your opinion, and give your reason, and be honest, and bear the consequences.

Isn't that how "freedom" is supposed to be?

Freedom comes with responsibility, and that applies to everyone, Steve included.

Saeed I agree with you 100%

oops...I ate all my popcorn...now what do I read????

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Hey Steve how about posting up some pictures of some of the Lions you've guided hunters to before you retired.

That would be a treat.

The sad truth is that we do not even agree on the definition of "hunter" sometimes!

Free range, low fence, high fence, captive bred, farm reared, feral, artificial insemination, hybrids, baited, drugged, spot lighting, using dogs, shot from a hide, bow hunted, speared, looking for "inches", "mine is bigger than yours", poached, ....... get the picture?

.......and we have not even got to females, young, age etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
All Steve did state FACTS as pertaining to this so called "hunt".

The outfitter who posted it knew exactly what he was doing.

Are you suggesting that we all keep quiet when someone tries posting something which without any doubt is not correct?

I have no objection to anyone hunting anything, in any manner, as long as it is legal in that country.

But, to portray a farm bred lion, taken off a game reserve because it was killing too many animals and claim it to be a wild lion is just plain wrong!

And all this complaining about why us hunters are not united does not make sense either.

How do we unite?

In agreeing with someone doing something and claiming it to be something else?

State your opinion, and give your reason, and be honest, and bear the consequences.

Isn't that how "freedom" is supposed to be?

Freedom comes with responsibility, and that applies to everyone, Steve included.

Yes, but responsible people often choose to exercise those freedoms with some dignity and class. And everyone on this site is the better for it.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:
Hey Steve how about posting up some pictures of some of the Lions you've guided hunters to before you retired.

That would be a treat.

+1, you are more likely to see Capstick post a picture first.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Jim, possibly an alternative way to look at it; Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on the opinion or the acceptance of others regarding the OP's hunt?

For me, hunting is a private or personal experience. My pleasure is in my adventures afield, not what my AR friends think about my report. This ain't a sport that I keep score in order to best or even compete with my peers, so although I would rather they find my posts informative or interesting, it wouldn't ruffle my feathers if I was roundly condemned for something I posted on the internet. (lets keep that statement in the context of the thread you mention, not extrapolate.)

It seems to me AR is a valuable forum for the public discussion of outdoor topics. If the OP didn't want to stand for the possibility of objections to his post, he of course had the option of not. I find it sort of funny that more than one of the AR members will go to lengths to make sure we all know they won't be posting hunting reports here, but in the same paragraph will blather ad nauseum about all their experience, i.e., hunt reports. Which is it guys? You don't want to share your experiences with us or you do?

If we're comfortable enough with what we did and are bored enough to spend the time to write a report, why not? If you had a great time, it really doesn't matter what a Keyboard Commando half a world or half a block away thinks.

Hi Scott,

I think the rub comes from guys who post hunt reports in their first few posts here on AR. I can remember quite a few that were in fact post number one.

A hunter, just back from Africa, getting a Lion charge on his first safari, probably was jumping out of his skin to tell everyone and anyone who would listen.

I can't help but think about Randall's constant (Crazyhorseconsulting)call for hunters to unite. We seem to eat our own at every chance. I really don't know why.

Do we as you say, have thin skin? Perhaps that's part of it.

I know Lions seem to be the common denominator on this subject though. Personally, I would hesitate to post a Lion picture here. Even a stud lion like the one Sullivan just put up draws criticism for various reasons.

I don't think Stave did it with any malice. I think he was practicing "tough love" if anything.

Should he have just sat on his hands? Who am I to say. I probably would have, but thats just me.

Steve

I think AR hunt reports are one of the best consumer/client utility on this web site. I like AR even when at times it gets heated - one thing that does not last long on this site is questionable service providers, questionable products or questionable clients (who don't pay their bills). We can either go all soft or ask tough questions even if it gets heated and meandering at times.

The average buff hunt approaching $20K and wild lion at $60K-$100K - this is real money to most people. If someone wants to spend this money either get a very good booking agent or choose a very good outfitter. If you want choose your own outfitter - the AR hunt reports are awesome. This is real guys spending real money posting reports / consumer reviews. That to me counts for something. I also think members should be allowed to ask questions on the experience and even allowed to criticize it. Ask questions on equipment, hunting style, trophies ect.

On criticism the hunter can just as well ignore it - its irrelevant to the hunter the hunt is done.

Just an example - you want to hunt Zim. My default advice to someone putting aside my great hunts and recommendation for Save safaris would be CMS. You have great hunt reports from Larry Shores to Mike Jines to all the way to Shootaway. Zambia its Fairgame. Botswana - Kanana. I don't track Tanzania in my mind but in about 2 hrs on hunt report section you can find a few great outfits. There is real value as a consumer who is spending real discretionary dollars on a service where costco or american express travel does not intermediate.

I would rather have it the current rough and tumble way than have it where everyone agrees only to post good things, only offer praise and accolades or it become a platform for native advertising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_advertising).

To me the hunt report section is very much like reviews on amazon - the comments are weighted by the people making them.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Ahrenberg:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Jim, possibly an alternative way to look at it; Perhaps too much emphasis is placed on the opinion or the acceptance of others regarding the OP's hunt?

For me, hunting is a private or personal experience. My pleasure is in my adventures afield, not what my AR friends think about my report. This ain't a sport that I keep score in order to best or even compete with my peers, so although I would rather they find my posts informative or interesting, it wouldn't ruffle my feathers if I was roundly condemned for something I posted on the internet. (lets keep that statement in the context of the thread you mention, not extrapolate.)

It seems to me AR is a valuable forum for the public discussion of outdoor topics. If the OP didn't want to stand for the possibility of objections to his post, he of course had the option of not. I find it sort of funny that more than one of the AR members will go to lengths to make sure we all know they won't be posting hunting reports here, but in the same paragraph will blather ad nauseum about all their experience, i.e., hunt reports. Which is it guys? You don't want to share your experiences with us or you do?

If we're comfortable enough with what we did and are bored enough to spend the time to write a report, why not? If you had a great time, it really doesn't matter what a Keyboard Commando half a world or half a block away thinks.

Hi Scott,

I think the rub comes from guys who post hunt reports in their first few posts here on AR. I can remember quite a few that were in fact post number one.

A hunter, just back from Africa, getting a Lion charge on his first safari, probably was jumping out of his skin to tell everyone and anyone who would listen.

I can't help but think about Randall's constant (Crazyhorseconsulting)call for hunters to unite. We seem to eat our own at every chance. I really don't know why.

Do we as you say, have thin skin? Perhaps that's part of it.

I know Lions seem to be the common denominator on this subject though. Personally, I would hesitate to post a Lion picture here. Even a stud lion like the one Sullivan just put up draws criticism for various reasons.

I don't think Stave did it with any malice. I think he was practicing "tough love" if anything.

Should he have just sat on his hands? Who am I to say. I probably would have, but thats just me.

Steve

I think AR hunt reports are one of the best consumer/client utility on this web site. I like AR even when at times it gets heated - one thing that does not last long on this site is questionable service providers, questionable products or questionable clients (who don't pay their bills). We can either go all soft or ask tough questions even if it gets heated and meandering at times.

The average buff hunt approaching $20K and wild lion at $60K-$100K - this is real money to most people. If someone wants to spend this money either get a very good booking agent or choose a very good outfitter. If you want choose your own outfitter - the AR hunt reports are awesome. This is real guys spending real money posting reports / consumer reviews. That to me counts for something. I also think members should be allowed to ask questions on the experience and even allowed to criticize it. Ask questions on equipment, hunting style, trophies ect.

On criticism the hunter can just as well ignore it - its irrelevant to the hunter the hunt is done.

Just an example - you want to hunt Zim. My default advice to someone putting aside my great hunts and recommendation for Save safaris would be CMS. You have great hunt reports from Larry Shores to Mike Jines to all the way to Shootaway. Zambia its Fairgame. Botswana - Kanana. I don't track Tanzania in my mind but in about 2 hrs on hunt report section you can find a few great outfits. There is real value as a consumer who is spending real discretionary dollars on a service where costco or american express travel does not intermediate.

I would rather have it the current rough and tumble way than have it where everyone agrees only to post good things, only offer praise and accolades or it become a platform for native advertising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_advertising).

To me the hunt report section is very much like reviews on amazon - the comments are weighted by the people making them.

Mike

All valid points Mike until the majority start saying "I'll never post a hunt report on AR again".

Ever seen that sentiment? Wonder why?

I'm not saying to not discuss whether a Lion hunt is "wild" or "misrepresented" all I recommended was start a new thread in the African hunting forum with a link to it in the hunt report and post your individual expert opinion (I'm talking Shakari here) there and don't shit on the guys LEGAL hunt.

I've gotten some interesting PM's that I actually wish the senders would post on here and not send as a PM. It seems there's a bit of a question on whether Shakari is a modern Capstick. We all know where that would lead.

Post up some pictures Steve!! I'd love to see them as I'm sure anyone else on here would. Hell someone with your great heritage and many years guiding probably has some back in the day photos we would droll over.

Some hunters choosing not to post hunt reports is entirely their choice.

The same goes for those who enjoy sharing their hunts with fellow hunters by posting theirs.

The rowdy drunk shouted "the f*&^%ing king in naked" or was it a little boy? I don't remember.

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


All valid points Mike until the majority start saying "I'll never post a hunt report on AR again".

Ever seen that sentiment? Wonder why?

I'm not saying to not discuss whether a Lion hunt is "wild" or "misrepresented" all I recommended was start a new thread in the African hunting forum with a link to it in the hunt report and post your individual expert opinion (I'm talking Shakari here) there and don't shit on the guys LEGAL hunt.

I've gotten some interesting PM's that I actually wish the senders would post on here and not send as a PM. It seems there's a bit of a question on whether Shakari is a modern Capstick. We all know where that would lead.

Post up some pictures Steve!! I'd love to see them as I'm sure anyone else on here would. Hell someone with your great heritage and many years guiding probably has some back in the day photos we would droll over.

Jim,

The lion hunting thing is at best a quagmire.

I am fully with Steve Ahrenberg that lion hunting is like fight club - we are best not talking about it. Its not a socially acceptable activity but I would argue an ecologically desirable activity. I also think that canned lion hunting is the best thing going for african wild lions and should be encouraged. I want farmed lions bones to China till there is a 10 year stockpile.

By talking about lion hunts I mean posting reports pictures ect. I don't want my picture with my dead lion. I posted the picture on AR of the dead lion, lion with the PH ect. But there is no chance in hell I want my picture with the dead lion floating around in the public space. I have zero issues with a dead buff. Hell my picture is in a poster that Save Safaris uses on the DSC and SCI booth and on AHR website. I am irrelevant (and damn proud of it) in the public sphere. But I would never have a lion picture out there cause some idiot anti hunting activist could plaster it all over the web and make me a public figure. No one cares about me and a dead buff and that is the difference between buffalo hunting and lion hunting.

Why should anyone with any public profile post a lion picture is beyond me. If you are in the hunting business great - CEO of Ruger - swell post away. A CFO in a public company with AR pictures with a dead lion - guess what how would it look at next shareholder meeting when a party with an issue with the company (let it be a mining or oil and gas or drug company - something unpopular) a bunch of people buy 1 share and show up with a shirt with the cfo with a dead lion smiling away. Picture taken from AR. The board ain't going to be too happy.

At least for lions and elephants I can see why many people don't post reports. I would not. Its not the criticism on AR or people questioning the age of the lion or if its wild enough or used to being feed off a truck. AR is still publicly accessed - you post here you are in the public forum.

Mike

PS - My desire in life is to be irrelevant in the public sphere. AR is as much publicity as I ever want.

WHAT?????? lost me there( referring to ENY's post)

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Some hunters choosing not to post hunt reports is entirely their choice.

The same goes for those who enjoy sharing their hunts with fellow hunters by posting theirs.

Saeed,

I will continue to post reports and look forward to doing so after the Zim-Moz trip for Joyce and I in 2015.

I also understand the right of opinions being expressed on a very loosely moderated forum and have supported that in the past including when Zombieshit attacked my wife.

That said, a hunt report is offered in good will and should have some gentlemanly decorum. If you don't agree with the place, time, species, fence, etc. than post so elsewhere.

That's simply my opinion.

Steve thinks otherwise and now I have expressed my opinion of his actions and the fact I really doubt he can back up all his exploits as a great PH.

Again my opinion. He is certainly capable of addressing that on here. Many have questioned the veracity of Capstick's credentials as a true PH. I will say this. At least he was a good author.

You think so Shakari?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
WHAT?????? lost me there

Jerry - my comment did ?

I would not post a hunt report with a lion or a picture of a lion on AR or any public forum. I think there are a lot of other AR members like that.

It not criticism of the hunt on AR. I just don't want a picture of me and a dead lion in the public sphere.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by Beretta682E:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:


All valid points Mike until the majority start saying "I'll never post a hunt report on AR again".

Ever seen that sentiment? Wonder why?

I'm not saying to not discuss whether a Lion hunt is "wild" or "misrepresented" all I recommended was start a new thread in the African hunting forum with a link to it in the hunt report and post your individual expert opinion (I'm talking Shakari here) there and don't shit on the guys LEGAL hunt.

I've gotten some interesting PM's that I actually wish the senders would post on here and not send as a PM. It seems there's a bit of a question on whether Shakari is a modern Capstick. We all know where that would lead.

Post up some pictures Steve!! I'd love to see them as I'm sure anyone else on here would. Hell someone with your great heritage and many years guiding probably has some back in the day photos we would droll over.

Jim,

The lion hunting thing is at best a quagmire.

I am fully with Steve Ahrenberg that lion hunting is like fight club - we are best not talking about it. Its not a socially acceptable activity but I would argue an ecologically desirable activity. I also think that canned lion hunting is the best thing going for african wild lions and should be encouraged. I want farmed lions bones to China till there is a 10 year stockpile.

By talking about lion hunts I mean posting reports pictures ect. I don't want my picture with my dead lion. I posted the picture on AR of the dead lion, lion with the PH ect. But there is no chance in hell I want my picture with the dead lion floating around in the public space. I have zero issues with a dead buff. Hell my picture is in a poster that Save Safaris uses on the DSC and SCI booth and on AHR website. I am irrelevant (and damn proud of it) in the public sphere. But I would never have a lion picture out there cause some idiot anti hunting activist could plaster it all over the web and make me a public figure. No one cares about me and a dead buff and that is the difference between buffalo hunting and lion hunting.

Why should anyone with any public profile post a lion picture is beyond me. If you are in the hunting business great - CEO of Ruger - swell post away. A CFO in a public company with AR pictures with a dead lion - guess what how would it look at next shareholder meeting when a party with an issue with the company (let it be a mining or oil and gas or drug company - something unpopular) a bunch of people buy 1 share and show up with a shirt with the cfo with a dead lion smiling away. Picture taken from AR. The board ain't going to be too happy.

At least for lions and elephants I can see why many people don't post reports. I would not. Its not the criticism on AR or people questioning the age of the lion or if its wild enough or used to being feed off a truck. AR is still publicly accessed - you post here you are in the public forum.

Mike

PS - My desire in life is to be irrelevant in the public sphere. AR is as much publicity as I ever want.

Great discussion here, hope it remains cordial. My issue with hunt reports is what Jim stated, "posted with a certain amount of goodwill" when that goodwill turns into a lynching, it becomes less desirable.

People are smart, they see what happened to the last guy, surely don't want any of that.

As to Mikes point, I agree 1000% percent, there is nothing positive to posting Lion pics on FB or some other social media. We all, as sportsman lose on that one. Lion hunting, even to most domestic hunters seems so outlandish, why would we not want to keep it quiet. Unless we don't want to continue doing it.

And…Capstick was a Fraud.

As someone who has posted the "evil lion picture," and gotten roasted a bit for it here, my take is that we need to be more gentlemanly about the criticisms of our own. Please note, I am not saying that criticism should not be made, just that it should be done with a decorum of if the other guy was in the room with you and your daughter/grand daughter was in the room with you. Criticism and debate can be done civilly, contrary to what is seen on the internet daily.

I read the report in question. I suspected that things were probably not as advertised. I still think so, but I can't say absolutely. I also had some questions about the hunter's reasons for posting it, as with his screen name, I wondered if he was either an agent or wanting to become one.

I really wish that Steve would have started his own thread on "how to spot a canned hunt" instead of making his comments on the guy's thread. He has a wealth of experience, but also is probably somewhat cynical about South Africa, as he chose to get the heck out of there as he retired.

One of my favorite parts of AR is the hunting reports from our fellow hunters, from Saeed's epics to the simple hog shooting in the pig forums, by driving some away, I feel we are collectively degrading our experiences.

With the sort of welcome we give some here, we attack someone who doesn't know better personally when the ire would be better spent on the persons enabling the actions.

Again, not asking for the mods to censor, but for the community to use restraint. Any highschooler can call someone a dumb f*&^%, but it sounds better to call one's accuser a semiliterate cretin (yes, that's an oxymoron), and better yet to explain what you found to be an issue politely.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
As someone who has posted the "evil lion picture," and gotten roasted a bit for it here, my take is that we need to be more gentlemanly about the criticisms of our own. Please note, I am not saying that criticism should not be made, just that it should be done with a decorum of if the other guy was in the room with you and your daughter/grand daughter was in the room with you. Criticism and debate can be done civilly, contrary to what is seen on the internet daily.

I read the report in question. I suspected that things were probably not as advertised. I still think so, but I can't say absolutely. I also had some questions about the hunter's reasons for posting it, as with his screen name, I wondered if he was either an agent or wanting to become one.

I really wish that Steve would have started his own thread on "how to spot a canned hunt" instead of making his comments on the guy's thread. He has a wealth of experience, but also is probably somewhat cynical about South Africa, as he chose to get the heck out of there as he retired.

One of my favorite parts of AR is the hunting reports from our fellow hunters, from Saeed's epics to the simple hog shooting in the pig forums, by driving some away, I feel we are collectively degrading our experiences.

With the sort of welcome we give some here, we attack someone who doesn't know better personally when the ire would be better spent on the persons enabling the actions.

Again, not asking for the mods to censor, but for the community to use restraint. Any highschooler can call someone a dumb f*&^%, but it sounds better to call one's accuser a semiliterate cretin (yes, that's an oxymoron), and better yet to explain what you found to be an issue politely.

"He has a wealth of experience, but also is probably somewhat cynical about South Africa, as he chose to get the heck out of there as he retired."

With all do respect Sir, you know this how?

I've openly compared him to Capstick and I will stand by that until corrected by those who have actually hunted DANGEROUS GAME including LION with him or perhaps a few pictures from back in that day so to speak. Until then he has as much credence criticizing someones hunt on their report as I do as a three time Bwana. Only difference maybe being I posted my Lion and report.

Well said crbutler!

I've said t before and I'll say it again. I will NEVER post a hunt report of any kind on AR. To many trolls and a-holes and a complete lack of moderation. As Saeed mentioned it's a personal choice, but the crap that goes on here regarding hunt reports is just too chicken shit for my tastes.

I am a moderator on another hunting and shooting site and I would burn some of the notorious jack wagons on this site down in a heart beat. There is a huge difference between freedom of speech and troll control and this place doesn't get it.

I've done multiple African hunts in Zimbabwe, Tanzania and South Africa. They are to important to me to have them trashed via hunt report on AR. It is a shame that we can't have intelligent moderation here as there isn't another site that has the depth of experience and knowledge regarding hunting in general than AR. I come here and I still learn some very useful things from our members it's a valuable site. But the background noise is almost intolerable at times. I remain very subjective about what I am willing to post on AR.

The day that Shakari got his panties in a wad over the water buffalo spear hunt in Australia. Vociferously claiming that the very, totally, EXTREMELY obvious noise of the buffalo deflecting a spear with his horns was a gun shot told me that he's either senile, daft or a drunk. In any case I read his info with a large grain of salt nowadays.

Steve has provided good insight for many on this forum, but I will take issue with pissing on a thread titled as a man's "Hunt of a Lifetime."

Obviously, we haven't heard back from the OP, and likely won't.

Very educational to read this thread, reread the hunt report and all the comments, plus the Shakari linked article. After that, I had to go back and read the hunt report a third time to see for sure just how this went about. Being naïve of this stuff before I had not given it much thought other than tame or half tame cats being turned loose once the 'hunter' was on site and hooked. What a damned shame this kind of thing is allowed to happen anywhere.

I now feel the same way, this was a drugged set up cat that aroused and was very pissed at the ordeal and saw the hunter and tracker within reach for retaliation. Does sound like the two shooters were on the ball to put a stop to things that went to hell instantly.

Am I seeing this correctly?

Jim: Thanks for starting this thread, otherwise some of us may have never realized what really happened here.

Although Steve did shit on the guys hunt report I believe he feels he had/has an obligation to inform every reader of what's going on in the lion hunting games. For that, I thank him too.

George

Frostbit

Firstly: I didn't piss on the man at all but I did point out he'd been sold a pup if he thought he'd had a wild lion hunt and that is entirely correct.

I later pointed that the 'hunt' was either misrepresented to him or he was misrepresenting it to others and in either case, it could lead to others booking similar 'hunts' if that fact was not pointed out and those things are also entirely correct and bearing in mind he's an agent, VERY important.

Where have I EVER claimed to be an authority on anything? I do often express opinions and sometimes give info but I never have and never will, claim to be an authority on anything.

I also posted a link to an article on our own website on how to spot the differences between a canned lion and a proper hunt...... I've posted that link several times before so it's probably been viewed before by most here who are interested.

I also posted "I have always said and always will say that canned lion shooting gives no benefit whatsoever to the wild lion populations because wild lion populations are on quota and therefore only a set number can be shot. Therefore the only benefit of captive bred lions is to the unethical and unscrupulous bastards that sell or shoot them and that this despicable practice will be one of the major contributory facors to the eventual banning of all lion hunting and eventually all lions outside of zoos" and I stand by that opinion. hell, they even proudly advertise what they do by posting pics and vids all over the net and couldn't make things easier for the antis if they tried.

This debate has raged for years and I've posted my own views on every occasion so why start a new thread to simply recover old ground?

I've never claimed to be a great PH but I do have a fair bit of experience in a number of different African countries and have hunted a reasonable number of DG and other animals over the years...... As for posting pics, if you do a search of my previous posts, you'll find my policy on that..... I stopped doing it many years ago because of image theft and you'll find examples of many of my old pics floating about the net, including a few lions.

Another search on my old posts will show you that I've previously said to others that I don't need to and will not justify myself to you or anyone else. - I don't give a flying fuck what you or anyone else thinks about me. I am what I am. Nothing more and nothing less.

You are also shooting from the lip with your policy of Ad Hominem which if you don't know translates to 'attack the man when you can't win the argument'.

Incidentally, I've also said that a captive bred lion is often no less dangerous than a wild one (unless of course still drugged) and that these practices are not limited to SA alone and that they happen in several other African countries as well.

What's important here is that lions and lion hunting continue for the next generation not that hunters get a lion in their trophy room at any cost or that their sensibilities are offended by my perhaps slightly hard nosed comments.

The fact is that canned lion shooting is wrong and will one day come back to bite us in the arse and that I'm dead right to criticise it.

Only read the first post and would like to thank you Jim. You are spot on

I do not want to hunt a lion in SA. However, I do believe there are guys who do it in an acceptable way.
So what? Stopp being a damn b*tch and let the guy enjoy his trip and his experience.

For a post on the hunting report sections is it legitimate to ask

(1) Country where the hunt took place
(2) Name of the concession where the hunt took place
(3) Name of Outfitter
(4) Name of the Booking Agent
(5) Name of PH or PHs
(6) Animals seen in the concession
(7) Animals hunted in the concession
(8) Weapons used
(9) Hunting style used - drive and stalk, bait, wait by waterhole
(10) Was this hunt advertised on AR or another site
(11) Was this a donated hunt to SCI ect
(12) Size of the concession area
(13) Area fenced
(14) Transport to get to the area
(15) Camp facilities
(16) Skinning and dip and pack services
(17) Pictures

These are all things I see in most reports that provide me with information to compare the hunt to another hunts and to see if I would ever want to go to this location or hunt with this PH/Outfitter.

A hunt report where the only thing people by some social convention provide are varying degrees of positive accolades would for me be pretty damn boring.

On the post that this thread refers to I find it very interesting that a booking agent, professional who charges a fee for services, list nothing but a series of events that took place in the kalahari with a wild lion. A full report with any real information would be nice - maybe he is traveling back to the states and is on a flight.

But I for one rather have a hunt report than a hunt story reflecting deep personal satisfaction and everyone joining in with posts of support.

I also agree that if the hunt raises issues like wild lions, lion aging, why the damn lion is bald - it should be linked and moved to the main africa hunting page.

Mike

Mike
Your list of questions are legitimate and add interest to any hunt report. That is why some hunt reports are worth reading many times over and others just a cursory glance.

The particular hunt report in question was brief and uninformative and the OP should be encouraged to give more info on the hunt, not so the self appointed moderators can crap on him but so the rest of us who enjoy the reports can learn and understand from another hunter's experience. It would also be part of a process of gaining information to determine whether the reader would like to participate in the particular type of hunt or not.

An attack/debate on the hunter and his hunt (if it must happen) should be on another page. Joloburn and the like (or whatever her name was) must be laughing all the way through their organic, vegetarian, politically correct, ethical lunches.

JCHB
JCHB

Hi everyone

Im a great believer in having good friends and i can count steve as one of them.

To state facts and facts only im not going into the lion debate and who is wrong or not.
I try to helped steve to stay in south africa and it wasnt his decision to leave its our goverment and there rules that sent this man out of the country.

As a ph did i have the honour to do a few hunts with steve and he is a great ph and a man with a vision what the animals next step is and he have a passion for leopards.

We also differ about lion hunts but everyman to himself when he left he made me a gun rich guy when he gave me his .404 a 1939 shotgun and his pistol and a few trophies that i put up in my lodge and all his leopard and hunting gear.

So steve a fake like you guys suggested NO i have personal experience about that his a man of honour a great friend and he knows his way around the bush.

This coming from a afrikaner guy saying that about a pommie.

Luan Lombard

quote:

I try to helped steve to stay in south africa and it wasnt his decision to leave its our goverment and there rules that sent this man out of the country.

Sounds like quite a story why he left, would love to hear it,

JK

jkhunter

When you ever come thru lydenburg stop for a beer and we will have a chat.

luan

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:

Sounds like quite a story why he left, would love to hear it,

JK

Not really a complicated story buddy...... I'd run the hunting business there for something like 3 decades one way or another but for the first 2 or so, commuted between the UK & Africa and then got fed up with the travelling and make the permanent move then........ We lived near White River for about 12 years but could only get own business visas.

In 2011, when I was trying to retire, we went to renew the visa and found out the Governmunt had amended the immigration act and "we no longer fitted the criteria" for any visa or permanent residency.

So despite the fact that we owned everything we had (including a house on a very desirable secure estate just outside White River) outright, didn't owe anyone a cent, paid our taxes on time, provided employment, contributed to the local communites, supported local charities and were responsible for bringing (both directly and indirectly) a very large annual sum of hard currency into the country, we had no choice but to sell up and leave......... and we weren't the only ones caught in the situation - We knew several others who also had to do the same thing.

The last thing a home affairs official said to me just before we left was: "It's quite simple Mr Robinson. We don't want whites in South Africa and we most certainly don't want white immigrants"

At the same time of course, illegal black immigrants can walk into any home affairs office and be granted permanent residency without even having to provide proof of income, job, education, lack of criminal record or anything else.

That said, although we didn't want to leave Africa or our many good friends there, things worked out very well indeed for us and although we miss Africa and especially miss our friends there, we love it here and wouldn't choose to go back even if they offered us a cast iron guarantee of permanent residency.

Crime here in non existent, weather is good, prices are low and people are friendly and welcoming....... Even the scenery here is very like Africa so it's pretty much like living in Africa without the Africans being around to stuff things up at every opportunity.

quote:

Originally posted by luan:
jkhunter

When you ever come thru lydenburg stop for a beer and we will have a chat.

luan

JK

Take a spare liver and an overnight bag when you go because Luan is the best host and one of the finest men you'll ever meet!

Laun any good Kudu walking the hills?

Im up in Swartruggens and Groot Mariko next week

reg

JK

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:

quote:

I try to helped steve to stay in south africa and it wasnt his decision to leave its our goverment and there rules that sent this man out of the country.

Sounds like quite a story why he left, would love to hear it,

JK

He is not the first and not the last. The main criteria is the skin colour. I have a friend who has a Masters Degree in teaching, from a UK university, and has specialised in "remedial teaching." Someone this country sorely needs. After umteen years she still has not been appointed to a permanent post, the wankers in Dept of Education are still convinced that she is not qualified. Just years of crap and yet every so called refugee that creeps across our borders is a citizen in 10 minutes. Hence our visa problems with UK et al.
Steve is a straight up man and in my book is a good mate who does not have to prove anything to anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by jkhunter:
Laun any good Kudu walking the hills?

Im up in Swartruggens and Groot Mariko next week

reg

JK

Woo Hoo....... I'll say there is!

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:

He is not the first and not the last. The main criteria is the skin colour. I have a friend who has a Masters Degree in teaching, from a UK university, and has specialised in "remedial teaching." Someone this country sorely needs. After umteen years she still has not been appointed to a permanent post, the wankers in Dept of Education are still convinced that she is not qualified. Just years of crap and yet every so called refugee that creeps across our borders is a citizen in 10 minutes. Hence our visa problems with UK et al.
Steve is a straight up man and in my book is a good mate who does not have to prove anything to anyone.

Another example is my better half Susan was a theatre room (OR) manager and senior sister in the cardio thoracic unit at Guy's Hospital in london for many years, did no end of work on the development of such things as taking the baby from the womb, conducting heart surgery on it and returning it etc and has operating procedures named after her and has also been part of the voluntary teams that go to places such Nairobbery to conduct voluntary cardio thoracic surgical missions etc and yet even despite resitting the SA exams was never allowed to practice because she was the wrong nationality.