I am curious here as I received a complete Hein 404 Jeffery rifle and have written a very favorable review for Rifle magazine on the quality of the Hein action and the rifle.
I also know Dave Caboth, who works for Greg. When he worked in Alaska I had a lot of experience with him and, from all of my experience, as well as many others in Alaska, he is a superb gunbuilder who was also unusually fast at completing jobs.
I have talked with Greg at length many times and know he is busy - most likely over his head with work and the debt of new equipment - but he does not strike me as a crook. Hopefully I am not mistaken.
I do know of at least one custom gunbuilder who has received a completed single shot action that he ordered and is very pleased with it.

Hein obviously seems to be experiencing major troubles and hopefully everyone who has deposits with him will eventually either receive their actions or a satisfactory response from Greg.

458Win...just the pessimistic side of me comes out here, but by any chance did Hein know you were going to write an article for Rifle magazine when you ordered the gun?
The reason I ask this is that almost every major, and many minor, manufacturers will always have a gun ready to go when they are getting press, but when it comes to the "normal" customer, the wait can be a long time, if ever.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I am curious here as I received a complete Hein 404 Jeffery rifle and have written a very favorable review for Rifle magazine on the quality of the Hein action and the rifle.
I also know Dave Caboth, who works for Greg. When he worked in Alaska I had a lot of experience with him and, from all of my experience, as well as many others in Alaska, he is a superb gunbuilder who was also unusually fast at completing jobs.
I have talked with Greg at length many times and know he is busy - most likely over his head with work and the debt of new equipment - but he does not strike me as a crook. Hopefully I am not mistaken.
I do know of at least one custom gunbuilder who has received a completed single shot action that he ordered and is very pleased with it.

Hein obviously seems to be experiencing major troubles and hopefully everyone who has deposits with him will eventually either receive their actions or a satisfactory response from Greg.

Phil,

Let me say I have a lot of respect for you and really enjoy your articles. I also enjoyed meeting you and visiting with you in Reno this year.

Here are my facts: I placed a order with Hein the last week of October in 2005. I sent a 50% deposit (I have the cancelled check plus all my emails) to Hein the 1st week of November 2005. Hein told me the rifle would be deliverded in 12 months.......that should of been November of 2006. Well it is now April 2008. For the last 4 weeks Hein has not returned my emails or phone calls. My last phone message was for him to call me or return my deposit.

If you read through this thread you will see that there are several Hein customers that are in the same situation.

I will not do future business with him and I would caution anyone else to read this thread and understand what they are getting into when they send a deposit to Greg Hein.

PS: I hope your article wasn't to glowing about Greg Hein, because the way I fill now I might just cancell my subscription to Rifle Magazine Actually, I really enjoy the magazine.

Phil: It was that very rifle and a very nice gent named Karl Webber that convinced me to place an order with Hein. He ALWAYS answered my calls & emails, often-times the very same day. They promised me a 16month turnaround, but I knew that it would probably take longer. When I started asking for progress reports on my rifle, the emails & phone calls stopped, I must have sent him fifty of the suckers w/0 a reply. Same for phone calls. It wasn't until I threatened legal action that he finally answered my emails, then everything was fine again. I'm always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. We agreed that he was going to deliver the rifle this coming July with an interim progress report to me on 15 April (photos, etc.).
Two days ago I sent him an "heads up" the 15th was approaching and we are back to silence. Well at 0001 hours on 16 April, an attorney (who is also a good friend of mine) is sending a ltter demanding my full refund or we start legal proceedings. The bloom fell off this project about the same time he got my last check and the emails stopped. I'm still hoping he comes through by the 15th as promised, but I seriously doubt it. jorge

I came on here because I do believe all of you and the situation does sound bad. I don't want to promote a shyster but still have hope that Greg will honor his end of the deal - even if it is too late for many of you. My article only dealt with the quality of the action and the rifle - and it was superb.
When, (If ?) he does get it together, and the actions are anything like the ones I saw, it will be the action to beat. I wish all of you the best of luck and will personally try to find out why Greg is taking so long.

I condsider myself one of the lucky one's. I demanded a refund of my money (and actually received it) after being lead on concerning when my rifle would be ready. I heard every song and dance story there was.

Frankly, a man reaches a point where it does not matter if the rifle is the greatest one ever produced in the world. The situation leading up to obtaining it sours a persons attitude so bad he can never enjoy the rifle.

PS: Phil, Enjoyed the article you wrote about the Hein rifle. I still wished mine could of been built and delivered as promised.

But I am curious, could you tell this forum how long it took you to receive your Hein rifle from the time you made the initial deposit?

It took two years from when Hein asked what caliber rifle I wanted to test until I received it. That is not out of line considering other top end rifles I have received.
I placed an order for an action of my own over a year ago and - as experience has taught me - promptly forgot about it and will expect it when it arrives.
It certainly helps that I already have rifles that I can use.

Phil-

I sure do hope you did not pay any money for that action yet. In th epast when I worked certain influential jobs, I got a lot of preferential treatment as well. In the past 4 days last week I learned of over $35,000 Greg took from clients, and none of us has even seen proof that ANY work was done on our projects. I honestly do think he has not started at all on most of them, even though he promised to ship the finished rifles to some of the guys.

If Greg and his partner/your buddy are such upstanding citicense, many of us would appreciate it if you called them and asked them to at least return our phone calls or emails. It has been months since Greg responded to any communication of mine.

I have not wanted to go into too many details of this guy on a public forum, but as I learn of other stories each day, I am caring less and less. If you have anything to add or any suggestions, feel free to contact me off the open forum.

I almost fell out of my chair just now-Greg Hein emailed me!

He promised to mail me things this week. Of course, I have recieved this exact same email from him several times. All I ever recieived were more of Greg Hein's lies. Naturally, he provided no tracking information or any sort of prooof he has actually doen what he says.

An interetsing tidbit was the last line in his email, "Quit calling my home phone number."

It is just as I told several of the other Hein screw-ees, we are going to have to pressure this weasel to have a prayer of ever recovering even a portion of or our losses. For those I have emailed about it, I think if you call his home number a couple of times a day like me he may at least speak to you. Will make it easier for us to track him down for what is in the works if nothing else.

I will keep calling his home and shop numbers until I get proof he is telling me the truth. This is the EXACT same thing he has told me before. It was always a lie then and I have seen no reason to believe it is the truth now. Hopefully I am wrong, but I am dealing with Greg Hein here.

If anyone else hears from Greg or actually recieves a refund, please let us know.

Marc: What exactly are the "things" he promised to mail you? Like Taxes, the 15th April deadline looms closer for him to reply to me. jorge

I just sent him another email and it came back as undeliverable.

Marc,

What email address did Hein email you from?

22WRF:

With regard to your analogy of backing a wounded animal into a corner, I think you are off the mark; the analogy suggests an attack upon another being. Yeah, these guys are attacking to a point, but Hein has apparently brought this on himself. I know he looks at this sight because he posts here.

The other forum members may be berating the point and should probably agree to hire a lawyer en masse as the case could be heard in federal court (standing on the grounds of interstate commerce).

If a man chooses to place his work in the stream of commerce, he ought to be able to back up his claims with real products delivered in a timely, reasonable fashion. Can you really offer any examples of other craftsmen you have dealt with in the past that get away with such delays? Here, where I live, a small batch woodworker for instance, would be faced with a long, hungry winter if he pulled this kind of crap because the word would get out and nobody would want to deal with him. Seems to me the same thing is happening here.

As far as leaving messages on his machine he may not want to have his kids hearing, well, likely neither of us can report on what is the content of the messages being left. However, I imagine most of our members here are gentlemen and not leaving trash, but instead are leaving messages of anger they are surely entitled to leave given the circumstances.

Perhaps Mr. Hein should review the thread concerning Mr. Satterlee that occurred this past winter. The parallels are scary - a talented craftsman who apparently doesn't know a lick about proper business conduct. Regardless of the reality of his financial condition, Mr. Hein owes the affected members here a personal phone call, a huge apology and a realistic expectation of when they can expect their product or their deposits back.

If you can't stand the heat... well you know.

Gentlemen, like I promised to do from the outset , I was to be totally open with good & bad regarding this project. It has nothing to do with [sic] " backing a wounded animal into a corner, but rather one of common courtesy.

While I do not request nor require daily interactions with Hein or any other business entity, business is business and if a customer has a valid concern or question, it should be answered promptly. Sticking one's head in the sand hoping for a problem to go away or failing to deliver on promises is not only bad for business but bad form.

For the record, Hein did just now email me to tell me he was going to be out of the office until Thursday and to expect pictures by either Thursday or Friday. Our agreed upon deadline was Tuesday. It will give me great pleasure to be able to post pictures here Friday, but that does not detract from Hein's absurdly suicidal business practices. jorge

This is a bit off-subject but Industry giants like Ruger often promise new products - with prototype samples at SHOT - that get everyone excited and then years drag by before they start rolling off the line.

Phil I agree, it is off subject. If you and I enter into a contract involving a substantial amount of money and you miss the deadline for delivery, refuse to answer any kind of communication, phone, emails, etc, until legal action is threatened for a refund, what is a person to do? Most, if not al of us are fully aware that custom guns are not subject to precise timelines, what I cannot accept is deceit and to be ignored. jorge

My case is not a missed deadline. The missed deadlines were years ago!! He called ME and told ME he was shipping my action out to my smith on 2 different occasions in the last 6 weeks. The first time he said it was a post office error the 2nd time he disappeared. I was on his side until this happened! I feel Greg has no intention of delivering my action that has been paid for for almost 3 years. He surly was able to contact me when one of his payments was due. I was on the make 4 equal payments as the work was completed plan. On your 4th payment the action would be delivered. I made my 4th payment almost 3 years ago and my 1st payment over 4 years ago. This has no resemblance to Ruger or any other "industry Giant" I have tried to be nice for many YEARS. This isn't my 1st custom with delays . This seems to be something very different. I have asked for an explanation why I was told my action was done and sent out or to send my money back many times through email when it works and on answering machines when they work many times before I came on here and let everyone know what was going on. Still nothing from Mr. Hein Jason Stoviak

quote:

Originally posted by j stoviak:
My case is not a missed deadline. The missed deadlines were years ago!! He called ME and told ME he was shipping my action out to my smith on 2 different occasions in the last 6 weeks. The first time he said it was a post office error the 2nd time he disappeared. I was on his side until this happened! I feel Greg has no intention of delivering my action that has been paid for for almost 3 years. He surly was able to contact me when one of his payments was due. I was on the make 4 equal payments as the work was completed plan. On your 4th payment the action would be delivered. I made my 4th payment almost 3 years ago and my 1st payment over 4 years ago. This has no resemblance to Ruger or any other "industry Giant" I have tried to be nice for many YEARS. This isn't my 1st custom with delays . This seems to be something very different. Jason Stoviak

Yes, it seems like it is something different. As I stated in an earlier post, it seems like a very clear case of undercapitalization. These types of businesses should not be started until the person has at least a couple years of personal living expenses tucked away. But quite often all of the money is put into machinery and supplies, and then they have to rely on customer deposits in order to live, but they can't get the work out fast enough, and it becomes a viscious cycle of trying to catch up. I have represetned quite a few folks on the other end of this sort of problem. The good thing, at least so far, is that he has not declared bankruptcy. That means he is not seeking protection from his creditors. That means he intends to complete his business. But if he is continually hounded he may just say to hell with it and file for Chapter 7 and everyone will be lucky if they get a penny on the dollar.

So, what does this leave us with for smiths who will make an action in this country? GMA, Empire and Dakota? To that we can add the bigger factories?

Thanks for the resonse, 22WRF. I see your position as well. Mr. Stoviak, you have been blessed with the patience of 10 men. You boys all oughta get together on a conference call, find a lawyer and sue for return of funds plus interest and fees.

On another note, isn't this all just a lovely exercise in the machinations of a capitalist market???? As I said once before, the marketplace has now identified a fraud and he should be driven out. What/whom will take his place remains to be seen, but hopefully that entity will come with an appropriately developed business acumen.

jsl-

trust me, group things are in the works. Those matters are best not aired in public before it goes down.

Everyone who is waiting on Hein and has commented on this thread have been VERY restrained in what they are saying on this public forum. The quantity of compalints and facts displayed in public here do not even add up enough to be the tip of the iceberg that has been disclosed in private. Things are far worse than has been said up to this point. It speaks volumes for the integrety and professionalism of all who have been wronged and are just trying to get something back.

The finacial impact of this just keep rising. I am not planning on reporting the talley, but it rises every day. A significant amount was added from more victims this morning. These men know the truth of it all.

At the end of the day, my hope is that the wronged parties are made whole again. Afterall, excepting those members who make a living in this business, the rest of us are hobbyists and unfortunate events like this take the fun out of it all.

22WRF,

Your prose has the remarkable quality of a lawyer...

I once had to resort to sending the local sheriff by a gunsmiths shop just to see if he might of died by accident , after 4 months of calling , I have had about 8 custom rifles built and realize it is a slow process but communication is needed ,i now only buy guns that are already built mostly english or early american custom makers they also hold there value better...Paul

quote:

Originally posted by jsl3170:
22WRF,

Your prose has the remarkable quality of a lawyer...

He is....

What a shame. I own a Hein in .450 Dakota and I concur with Phil that the Hein is a superb rifle.

It is amazing to me that someone will piss away the good press and goodwill that they receive from a favorable review of their product, such as what Phil wrote in his review, by exhibiting unbelievably piss poor customer service and communication. Consequently, I corresponded with Karl while he was still there and he was always very responsive, seems like maybe it starting going to hell when he left. Does anyone know why he left?

Anyway, I feel for you guys and I sure hope it works out for everyone and you get either your rifles or your money back.

Cheers,
Andy

I talked with Greg about 3 weeks ago. He does not read or respond to posts on AR. I personally own 3 Heins with 2 more in production and 2 more on the drawing board. The first 3 averaged about 30 months and my 4th is 2yrs in the making and the 5th is now at 3 months. Greg is not a crook or a thief and as long as he is making rifles he will have my business. Sure, maybe his business skills are "relaxed" but calling him or emailing him every hour will accomplish exactly 2 things, jack & sh*t. I know everyone wants their rifles, so let the man work and you will eventually get them.

and jack left town

Carlos-

can you please tell us when you ordered and took delivery of the rifles? We have found that when Karl was there and immediately after he left, work was produced. As Greg was on his on longer and longer, less got done.

The rifles you say are at 2 years and 3 months in progress, have you actually seen nay proof any work has been done, or are you strictly basing it on what Greg tells you.

As it stands now, it looks like many people have already paid a significant amount of money and many have sent Greg components to be used in the rifles and/or actions. I am tlaking a dozen guys who are together right now with more being added each day.

NONE of the dozen have had any form of our communication returned for months, even when we contacted Greg to tell him the products did not arrive as he promised they would.

Has greg had any communication with you in th epast 3 months regarding th enew rifle? I am curious if he actually communicates to clients who still have money to send him. It has been our experience that when he has all of our money and goods, he dissappears and will not talk to us. I am eager to know if he talks to people who are in the process of sending him money.

As for what you "know," well, all I can say is I am glad you are happy with what you have. I really do mean that. Most of the rest of us are so pissed off we are at the point that any rifles or actions we get will be despised based on what Greg out us through. If you were in our position, would you feel the way you do right now?

And by the way-IF Greg should all of a sudden stop being your friend and talking to you for a few years after you send the last payment for Rifle #5, do not come crying to any of us. Hopefully he will not screw you like he screwed us, but if he does screw you like every non-national-gunwriter we are aware of over the past couple of years, well, you will find no sympathy here. But you just keep thinking positive and maybe it will be OK.

Greg just emailed me with the tracking numbers I requested yesterday. Hopefully htings will work out.

Interestingly, i checked the numbers and replied to his mail within a few minutes of recieving it, thanking him for providing the information. The email bounced back as undeliverable.

For the others out there who have been contacting me, I am still going to help you with what we have tallekd about. I have plenty of time each day and will do anything you need. This guy has really given all custom gunmakers a bad name and I will do what I can to help restore th ename of the industry. It was bad enough to begin with.

Yet another update. Greg responded and promised me photographs of my rifle by Friday at the latest. When I get them, I'll post them here.

I don't think an email or phone call every six months or so is unreasonable but when you do answer your response is curt and evasive.
And if emails go unaswered and you have my money, you can call me "gerbel" because I'll be living in your ass until you do. jorge

Marc_Stokeld

This website is the last place in the world I would look for any sympathy. Greg eventually returns my calls weather I owe him money or not.

BTW--I don't cry.

I got a tracking# today for my action. I tried to email Greg back returned undeliverable. Entered the tracking # in USPS sight and no package with that # exists at this time. Hopefully it just isn't in the system yet. I hope this time it gets here. The thing that might suck is I sent Glen Harrison of Phoenix Machine a deposit yesterday to build me an action for this very project. I have had the barrel, custom dies, custom forming dies, reamer ect for over 4 years just waiting for action. Glen promised delivery of 7-15-08 we will see.

He has yet to answer my e-mails or return my phone calls.

Just sent him another e-mail letting him know that if he fails to call me within the next 48 hours and address my concerns and answer my questions, my attorney will be in touch.

Tracked my package again and it said package with that # was in system orgin Washington State. Hopefully it is my action and stock.

Sheesh-

I'm not a Christian, but I do remember hearing something about let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I see a bunch of guys here who want the best work ever, and think that their money can buy it.

On their schedule.

When it takes a while, they bring out the lawyers.

We'll punish this son of a bitch.

Now they want to destroy the creator. Nail him to a cross.

Sound familiar, Christians?

flaco

Flaco:
I personally think you went way too far on this. On their schedule? I believe that from what I read on the posts that Mr. Hein set the schedule and then failed to follow it. I never read one post where a person put a deposit down and said to Mr. Hein, "You have my deposit, now I want it on this date." I have seen some of his work, and handled a rifle he made, but how can something be the best work ever if it is never produced? I think all of the posters have been very patient, agreeing to, or at least not making too big of a deal up to this point, of accepting the excuses and delays in the delivery of their product. Destroy the creator? Seems to me he is doing that himself. I also never read anyone post on this topic that they were Christians...and even if they did, what does that mean? Does that mean that being a Christian means you must never make a fuss if you don't get what you paid for? Does it mean that if you do give money to somoene for a product and they don't deliver, that you should just say, "Oh well, he can keep the money, and I won't have hard feelings."?
I believe that, like myself, all these posters work hard for their money and when they pay for something they expect to get it. The gunsmith, or any other artisan, worker, creator, or whatever you want to refer to them as, usually sets the delivery time and terms. Why should we be expected to pay the deposit on time, and the artisan, etc., not be held responsible for keeping their word and delivering on time? Why the double standard? I realize that there can be delays, and very valid excuses, but I don't believe in this case that that is the reason for the delays.
So, one final question...would you give me, say, enough money to buy a nice english double rifle, with the promise from me that I would pay it back within two years, and when that two years comes and goes and I haven't paid a cent back, nor communicated with you in anyway about the debt, would you say, "I am not worried one bit, he can take as much time as he wants, and I won't bother him in any way or form to try and get my money back?"
I really doubt it, but then again, if you are willing, let me know and I will send you my address to send the money.
I apoligize for the rant, and if I offended anyone, but I feel for the guys who pay hard earned money for something they want and don't get it. Again, the buyer did not set the time frame, in this case the gunsmith did, and I don't think any of you are out of line doing anything necessary to get what you paid for when it was promised to you.

And BTW flaco, what of the application of Christian principles by Mr. Hein?

Do you honestly think we ought to drag religion into this? It's a simple case, really. Bad businessman + bad business practices = bad business deal. Don't make it about morality when it is only about contract law.

quote:

Originally posted by FOsteology:
He has yet to answer my e-mails or return my phone calls.

Just sent him another e-mail letting him know that if he fails to call me within the next 48 hours and address my concerns and answer my questions, my attorney will be in touch.

Also my situation.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
Sheesh-

I'm not a Christian, but I do remember hearing something about let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I see a bunch of guys here who want the best work ever, and think that their money can buy it.

On their schedule.

When it takes a while, they bring out the lawyers.

We'll punish this son of a bitch.

Now they want to destroy the creator. Nail him to a cross.

Sound familiar, Christians?

flaco

This one definately ranks as one of the most inane posts I have seen on this site.

I'm thinking about getting into the custom gun business, so all you Christians out there send me your money and I'll let you know when you can have your rifle.

The book of Corinthians Chapter 6 should shed some light on what he's referring to.............

My action and stock arrived at Bansners Today . Mark had left for the day so I won't get a report on quality until tomorrow. I will comment tomorrow when I get a report from him. I called Phoenix machine and changed my action order from the one to replace the Hein action to a tactical 338 Lapua action. I hope my good news means others will be taking delivery shortly. Jason