Just got off the phone with Mark Bansner. He said the quality of the action is excellent. He is ready today to place an order for more than one if it doesn't take 4 years. Greg if your following this thread I hope your problems are starting to be behind you. I wish you luck in being able to deliver this type of quality to your customers in a more reasonable time frame or at the least let someone know up front a more realistic time frame. Lastly Greg is not a crook or a thief, however it is a shame that having to get all of his customers together in a revolt seems to be the only way to get answers. Please Greg be honest with your customers the truth goes a long way to resolving issues and hiding only starts mass panic. Again I hope everyone involved with Mr. Hein has as happy of an outcome as I have. Best Regards Jason Stoviak

Excellent! I hope to have good news to report to you all as well today. jorge

I have yet to hear from Greg.....

quote:

Originally posted by FOsteology:
I have yet to hear from Greg.....

I haven't heard from him either and I'm just about out of patience!

Jorge,

Has Hein produced the required photo's of your rifle?

"Do you honestly think we ought to drag religion into this? It's a simple case, really. Bad businessman + bad business practices = bad business deal. Don't make it about morality when it is only about contract law."

Can I quote you on this?

I'm not certain of Saeed's original intent, but I do know that AR shines brightest when it's about accomplishment.

About the miracle of gunsmiths whose creative talents rival, well, others...

About a dedication to detail--often at the expense of time (one of our issues?)--that confounds comprehension.

A celebration.

I have no idea who Hein is, and I don't believe it's important.

I'll take Phil Shoemaker's word for it.

Because, well, Phil Shoemaker talks the talk and walks the walk.

We have just a few on this forum that do that.

Mainly it's "Here's my new beautiful rifle--fill in the name here--someone else built for me"; or, alternatively, "Here are photographs of the animals I killed on Safari in Africa," because--once again, fill in the name here--"someone else made it possible."

The names we fill in are not those of affluent folks.

The names we fill in are those who have a passion, and affinity, a dedication sometimes hard to understand, for what they do.

The names we fill in are those of folks who have chosen avenues most often considered impractical by the rest of us.

Because how are we going to send our children to college on what a gunsmith makes?

How are we going to send a child to college on what a guide makes?

Yes, there are 'smiths that do very well.

The run factories, and pay someone else to do the work.

Most recently we seen an attack on Stuart, and now Hein.

It's one of the paradoxes of the job: A great 'smith gains a reputation, fortune smiles, and just about the time he thinks he's doing well, he can't keep up with the orders.

God forbid he should have more than two clients on AR.

Part of this I see as an internet phenomena.

You guys just fuel each others' anger.

And, no doubt, each has a right to be upset.

But I don't want to hear about it.

You've turned the AR Gunsmithing Forum into the Whiner's Forum.

And I will not leave, and knowing it's not gonna make me any points, without mentioning my surprise at Forrest's recent behavior.

Which I took to be totally out of character.

Okay, Forrest, you've got a legitimate gripe with Stuart.

We'll all acknowledge that.

But I've always taken you to be a warm, nurturing, supportive person.

I'd have expected you to PM or email Stuart something to the effect of "Stuart, you're getting yourself in trouble here, is there anything I can do to help?"

"I've heard it's a painfully slow process to learn that new software. That the machines are great, but you have to spend otherwise productive time, beating them into compliance."

"Can I help?"

That's what I would have expected, Forrest.

Okay, okay.

I know too well that there is nothing I can do to influence this forum.

And there is nothing I enjoy more than a plenitude of voices expressing different opinions.

But about the time you guys make a lynch mob, and light the torches, you've lost me.

And I have to say it.

flaco

N.B. Forgive me, Phil, for dragging you into this.

Flaco, I believe if this man was had thousands of your dollors you might have a completely different outlook on the subject. Try to keep an open mind and just don't read the posts that hold no interest for you. I've read this post and haven't agreed with some of the things written, but I don't have a thin dime invested so I really don't feel like it's my place to post (until now ). I know you and I hate to see you drawn into this. Trust me, nothing good will come of it and you aren't going to change anybody's mind.

Terry

Flaco

WELL SAID!! Not to trivialize the seriousness of this problem and the legitimate complaints, but this seems more about business practice and ethics than gunsmithing. Should this thread be moved to a different forum?

quote:

Originally posted by RogerR:

Should this thread be moved to a different forum?

No! Hein solicited business on this forum.

Well, Terry, you're correct.

Almost anyone with better judgment than mine would have stayed well away from this thread.

I may have shoved my tit in the wringer again.

Ya think?

flaco

Nah, don't worry about it.

Terry

flaco you have some good points there but the fomenters will never hear you.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
And I will not leave, and knowing it's not gonna make me any points, without mentioning my surprise at Forrest's recent behavior.

Which I took to be totally out of character.

Okay, Forrest, you've got a legitimate gripe with Stuart.

We'll all acknowledge that.

But I've always taken you to be a warm, nurturing, supportive person.

I'd have expected you to PM or email Stuart something to the effect of "Stuart, you're getting yourself in trouble here, is there anything I can do to help?"

"I've heard it's a painfully slow process to learn that new software. That the machines are great, but you have to spend otherwise productive time, beating them into compliance."

"Can I help?"

That's what I would have expected, Forrest.

That's EXACTLY what I did for 18 months. I tried to help Satterlee; first with my original order and then by recommending him to friends of mine who also placed orders. I had a lot of contact with Satterlee and exchanged a lot of ideas I hoped would be helpful. It turned out that everything he had said to me for those 18 months turned out to be a LIE. He lied to me and to my friends whom I put in a position to be lied to by Satterlee.

To top it off, he lied about me to others and then insulted me on a public forum. I tried to help him at every turn and he chose to bite the hand that fed him.

I'm in pretty much the same position with Hein. I gave him an order to help him out with a new endeavor. Got my friends into it up to their necks and we've been treated worse than shit.

It's easy to sit back and judge other's behavior when you have no skin in the game. Take Terry's advice and stay out of it.

The problem with the internet and other medias, is they can act like a two edged sword.
First you benefit from the easy and free advertising, next you get exposed from your lack of customerpolicy.

When you accept a deposit, you have sold yourselv as a slave, and has to accept the beating when you do not deliver as payed for.

3 Rules of a clean concience and calm customers.

1: NEVER TAKE DEPOSITS
2: NEVER TAKE DEPOSITS UNLESS YOU INVEST IN PRODUCTS DIRECTLY TO A SPECIFIC CUSTOMERS
3: NEVER TAKE DEPOSITS PRIOR TO ACTUALY STARTING A CUSTOM JOB, AND DONT START A CUSTOM JOB BEFORE YOU CAN COMPLETE IT WITHIN A WERY SHORT TIMEFRAME.

If you folow those rules you might loose a few customers that might not have the patience, to wait until you have the time to serve them.
They might even be pissed of, but they are free to go elswhere, without waisting your time pouring out endles excuses.
Expierince tells me that there is plenty of customers outh there, and it is mutch better making a living as a free mann than as a Slave Of Deposits.

If you activly uses the internet in marketing, be extreme responding to small fires starting, or you might get burned badly.

Over the last month we have seen the efect of not realizing early enough, the backside of this media, a couple times.

Stuards whife realized the problem, and took action, and i ame sure he will surwive.
Hein could easily learn the lesson, by acting likewise

Flaco, I'm sorry, but if you want {sic} nurturing words, go see a Chaplain. While you certainly chose a good man to hang your example of credibility with Phil Shoemaker, others here have {sic} walked the walk in ways you'd never comprehend, but like you I digress.

Hein again failed to live up to expectations by missing yet another deadline and THREE (3) extensions, the last one being this past Friday. What you don't seem to grasp is this issue is about integrity and nothing else.

To sound like a broken record again; a 16 month deadline was missed, followed by over thirty (30) unanswered emails and or phone calls (except of course when money was involved).

Yet we "whine"? is that new terminology for "hey you have $5,075.00 of my money and you have not only missed three deadlines YOU PROMISED TO KEEP, but you ignore phone calls and your email inbox does not work, And you quote scripture? Well here's some "scripture": "Render on to Caesar that which is Caesar's and unto God, that which is God's," (HINT: This has NOTHING to do with God) but I'm afraid this one's more apropos: His soul might belong to Jesus but his ASS will soon belong to me." Had Hein been upfront from the outset and said " hey, I'd love to take your order, but I can't guarantee a timeline" things would have been vastly different.

This place, thanks to Saeed has incredible reach and credibility within the hunting community and those of us that have been jerked around might just want to prevent others, even you Flaco from the same fate. jorge

Jorge, you hit the nail squarely on the head... "...this issue is about integrity and nothing else." How many times have we witnessed people here getting pissed off simply because one party would not DO WHAT THEY SAID THEY WOULD DO? I've said it before and I'll say it again: if your word is no good, what good is the rest of you? I really feel for those of you who have put good money on the table and have been lied to...once or a hundred times doesn't matter.

I'll shut up now.

MKane160

The 4 stock blanks I was trading Greg showed up last night. He told me he mailed a money order in a regular letter, but that has not yet arrived.

Greg Hein is lier of the highest order. He only started returning my blanks and Jason's actions after YEARS of being late and lying about it. And the ONLY thing that prompted him to get 2 of his screwed clients off of his back was the group action that is still underway.

If Greg donated every cent he had to charity tomorrow, it would not change the fact that he is a lying dog. He may reform one day, but it will take a while to see if he can keep his word. As of today, he still is unable or unwilling to do that. He trolled this site with a lot of lines baited behind the boat. He snagged a lot of folks in the process. THis is the main forum where he did that.

He still has over $50k in deposits, as well as other gun materials, in his pocket. And these rae just what i personally am aware of. His troubles will not be our until our troubles are over. if he did not want things to turn out like this, then he should have been man enough to do things differently.

At least Greg was man enough to post on this site using his real name and location. SOme folks, even on this very thread, are not man enough to do that. No, they prefer to hide behind their keyboard with cute little screen name.

There are many folks reading this thread who have not been screwed by Greg. They are reading the posts and either believe that myself and others are telling the truth, or they believe that for some reason a lot of guys from all over the country decided to start telling the same lie about the same guy, at the same time. Me personally, i don't see how a guy could read all of our stories and think it a queer coincidence that we all magically ahd the lie pop in our heads at the same time, but I guess anything is possible. Hell, I don't even understand why folks buy Ford trucks!

Greg has made a good first step, albeit and microscopic baby step. I am hoping he decides to man up and do the right thing with everyone. So far, he has not decided to do that.

I meet with my attorney tomorrow afternoon. Will be sending out a demand letter for my deposit.

I would like to be part of the group action. Please keep me in the loop!

William

One of my best lifelong friends is a gunsmith. Like most of them he is not in a race to finish a rifle, but wants it done right. It is kind of normal to expect a craftsman to be slow. This however is quite different than being lied to. Good followup and communication isn't that hard unless you don't have the deposit money and don't have any progress to show in the work. Unfortunately it looks like this is the case in this gunmaker's story. I really liked the Hein actions and was a whisper away from ordering one myself a couple of years ago. Glad I didn't. There is no excuse for dishonesty, and if I was Jorge or one of the others, it would be difficult to wait for the lawyers and not just show up at the shop to dish out a good old fashioned ass whipping. I'm not saying that is the right thing to do, unfortunately sometimes I don't do the right thing when pushed too far. Being late is one thing, having enough work to be behind is another, being a liar and cheat is a completely different thing.

The sad and cynical part in this whole saga of CUSTOM GUNSMITHS is that most of these Custom Smiths could not give a rats rear about the stress/grief etc etc they cause , something which should be a pleasant experience turns out to be a absolute night mare....and the suckers at the end are paying for the experience...
it would be intresting if some smiths got there final payment /balance in the same ratio of time they were late in delivering there project...there may not be many in existance
Daniel

This whole mess is just plain bullshit plain and simple. Some of these folks are 2 years past the due date and greg will not even return an e-mail or phone call.
I, myself would be making a roadtrip and the MF at the final stop had better have my completed product or my cash in hand, because I would be in NO mood to talk any longer. Is this the right way to handle these matters, maybe not but it is my way and my way would make me feel good in fact reallll good.
I have been very happy with the time frame and quality from several smiths on this site,Jim Kobe,Mark Stratton,Roger (Scrollcutter) Kehr and several others. Great products and right on schedule.

Good luck to those of you waiting, hope he comes through soon.

Well gentlemen, not good news to report. As originally posted here last month, Hein agreed to a "progress" report by April 15th.

Two days prior to the 15th, I emailed Hein to give him a heads up on the upcoming headline and he responded (a miracle in itself)by indicating he was "out of town" but would have pictures to me by Thursday or Friday at the latest.

As of this morning 1230hes (EST) and two emails from me, no response. The lawyer has it come Monday. More to follow. I did not want this...jorge

Sorry to hear that jorge, I know this was to be a very special rifle for you.
I know Howard also had two barreled actions ordered and paid for. One for him and a lefty for his son. Wish there was something we could do for all of you waiting.

quote:

Originally posted by jimmyd264:
I, myself would be making a roadtrip and the MF at the final stop had better have my completed product or my cash in hand, because I would be in NO mood to talk any longer. Is this the right way to handle these matters, maybe not but it is my way and my way would make me feel good in fact reallll good.

Or it might make you feel real bad if you get beat up or arrested, and make you not feel at all if you get killed.

I had to turn on The Weather CHannel to see if Hell froze over. I agreed with 22WRF and figured the earth was spinning backwards on it axis or something!

I figured this thread needed a little levity before someone stroked out. THis situation sure has raised the blood pressure for many of us unfortunate souls.

One thing that has continued to baffle me in this thread is that a few folks tried to lecture us of how it took a long time to make a custom gun and we had unreasonable schedule expectations. THat has continued to make many of us scratch our heads. Out of those of us getting shafted, two of us are custom gunamkers and all but one of the others have commissioned multiple custom guns in the past. Some folks have more sunk into their custom guns than many readers have sunk in their house. As we used to say back in Louisiana, "This ain't my first rodeo!"

If anyone has a physical address on Waffen. Hein/Greg please contact me via PM.

Howard does. jorge

Just wanted to say that I got a money order for the cash from Greg today. It is a shame and borders on unbelievable that it took as much effort as it did. Now I can wash my hands of the man.

FOsteology-

PM sent

Like everyone else that is in or has been in this situation with Hein.... it's truly sad that it has come to this...

Greg doesn't leave one much choice due to his behavior and lack of communication.

Like you Jorge, my attorney is now involved.

Folks, Greg Hein sent me a picture of an action today along with a semi-finished stock. Where I am right now, I am not able to post the picture. If I can get one of you to post it for me, I'll email it. As most of you know, the "legal train" left the station and now he sends the picture. I'll let you know what happens, but it appears the rifle is nearing completion. What a mess this continues to be. jorge

Jorge,

I think you're hoping that was a picture of your rifle. Ask for a close-up of the serial number.

George

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
I had to turn on The Weather CHannel to see if Hell froze over. I agreed with 22WRF and figured the earth was spinning backwards on it axis or something!

I figured this thread needed a little levity before someone stroked out. THis situation sure has raised the blood pressure for many of us unfortunate souls.

One thing that has continued to baffle me in this thread is that a few folks tried to lecture us of how it took a long time to make a custom gun and we had unreasonable schedule expectations. THat has continued to make many of us scratch our heads. Out of those of us getting shafted, two of us are custom gunamkers and all but one of the others have commissioned multiple custom guns in the past. Some folks have more sunk into their custom guns than many readers have sunk in their house. As we used to say back in Louisiana, "This ain't my first rodeo!"

One thing one learns real real fast when working with people where there is a tremendous amount of emotion involved is that almost never are you working with true reality. Its almost always the "perception" of reality because we are all individuals. We all attempt to understand what they other is trying to tell us by the use of words mostly, although those words can mean many things to many people. I have always said that it seems kind of stupid that we need words in order to define words. Why can't a word mean what it means without having to define it with other words. The dictionary would be a lot thinnner.

What is my point. I don't think anyone here really thought that those who had money in this thing had unreasonable expectations. Nevertheless, What is reasonable to one may be unreasonable to another, and downright "I am ready to kill you" to another.

Its good to see that some are getting their money back and some are getting their actions.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Jorge,

I think you're hoping that was a picture of your rifle. Ask for a close-up of the serial number.

George

Correct. The letter from my attorney goes out today regardless, but I DID give him an "out" if he provides the serial number. jorge

I received an e-mail from Greg this morning. Ironically he failed to address my concerns and questions.

Posting for Jorge:




George

Notice he didn't provide a picture with the serial # as requested.....

I also need the physical address on Waffen Hein/Greg, please contact me via PM

Thanks

Mike,

PM'ed you the addresses I obtained.

Jorge:

As mentioned above, the picture does not show your serial number. IIRC, you were building a .450 Rigby or Dakota? Taking a look at the picture, it appears to me (after looking at my own .458WM) that the barrel after the chamber seems rather small for a .458 contour.

I may be wrong and, I hope I am for your sake, but this may or may not be your action. Pictures and the scale of the content can be deceiving when reproduced.

I don't mean to add to your worries. Good luck and I hope it can be resolved to your satisfaction, if that's possible at this point.

Regards,

RCG

quote:

As mentioned above, the picture does not show your serial number.

I have no dog in this fight, but from what I have read from people I know and respect, WFH needs to find happy hunting grounds elsehwere - I doubt they will get accomodating reviews, even if thier product is "above all else" due to the hell they have put CUSTOMERS through.

Lying...well, I can not accept ANY of that. You lie once, you will lie again, and again, again...

All parties who have been fucked in this process, I hope you have an acceptable outcome.