Jorge, if you booked a hunt with Mr Sharp while in Dallas, I volunteer myself & my son as gun bearers

An update folks. Hein has a court date to delare under subpoena on 2 Feb. It is called an examination of judgment debtor. Sometimes it is referred to as Debtor's Examination or Supplemental Examination. In the paperwork he was also served with a Subpoena as well.

Maybe you attorney's here can expand on what that entails and possible outcomes...jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:

Nope, settlement. Maybe someday I'll try again, but for now, I'm strictly an "off the shelf" guy again! jorge

Im Confident folks like MartiniHagn could build you a rifle that wont cause you angst or sleepless nights, but their prices are noteably higher, and that seems to tell me something about WFH.

It is only Martini now---they split the sheets. I was supposed to get an action and barrel early last fall to build an rifle for the ACGG Show and my Smith got a call last 2 weeks ago (this is after several calls by both my Smith and myself during the summer)that the actions would be finished in March or April..

I said no thanks---love the product but will do this project later---never know who is going to come out with another single shot action..

If I remember correctly:

Just because one obtains a judgment, such as here a Confession of Judgment, doesn't mean that one automatically collects the judgment unless the judgment debtor wants to pay the Judgment.

But most judgment debtors do not have much incentive to immediately pay a judgment creditor, and therefore creditor's counsel must make inquiry and take action designed to shorten the time that a judgment remains uncollected before the collection period expires (most states have a statute limited the number of years that a judgment is collectible, although many states allow a judgment creditor to apply for an extension.) Basically, that entails getting a disclosure of assets under oath because if a creditor's counsel sits too long without taking action to require disclosure of assets under oath or levying on available assets the judgment debtor will basically win the match over the judgment creditor.

Most states have statutes governing how collections can take place. These rules provide for post judgment actions, such as drafting interrogatories and requests for production of documents in order to find assets. In addition, some states also allow for an Order for Disclosure which is a bit more formal avenue for discovery of collectible assets. A judgment creditor asks the Court to issue an order requiring the debtor to provide creditor in writing the identification and location of all assets.

A more formal procedure is that of applying to the Court by affidavit for an order compelling the Judgment debtor to appear before a Court reporter or notary public to be examined under oath as to assets, liabilities, cash flow, tax returns, etc. etc. Usually some sort of writ of execution must be returned unsatisfied by the sheriff before a judgment debtor can subpoena a judgment creditor for one of these examinations, but that probably isn't true in all states.

What is probably going to happen is that creditor's counsel will queston the debtor on the record as to debtor's assets and liabilities so that some sort of formal collection action can be ordered, such as a levy on specific property, garnishment on a financial institution, etc. In some states one might also file for a Liquidation Receivership if the debtor has a business.

If the debtor doesn't appear the creditor can file a motion for Contempt of Court Order due to the debtors failure to obey a subpoena or a court order in a Supplemental Proceeding. Sanctions on the debtor could include incarceration or a fine.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
I still think that eventually everyone will get what they ordered.

Still stand by that statement?

Rusty

It appears that I spoke (wrote) a bit too soon with regard to Mr Hein. Lesson learned.

I certainly hope that Howard and Jorge's attorneys have success in locating enough assets in which to satisfy the judgment.

22WRF,
At least you find yourself in same boat as others taken by Hein. It's a sorry person who steals from his customers.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
Rusty

It appears that I spoke (wrote) a bit too soon with regard to Mr Hein. Lesson learned.

We have all done the same at some point in our lives.

BTT

Looking forward to a report about next Monday!

starts 9:30 am pacific time

Jorge, Howard and any others:

Good luck tomorrow. Give him hell!

RCG

We need an update Howard, hope the judge kicked his ass today......................

Jorge

I am sorry this has happened to you.

We are all working stiffs, in one form or another, and when we get the chance to bust loose some cash for a little reward, be it a hunt or a rifle, I know it takes on extra meaning- we think about it, dream about it, look forward to it..

Then someone comes along and basically screws us, strings us along. At first we are hesitant to raise a stink, we are patient, we believe in the others good will, and then it gets nasty. On top of all that, you have had to endure the slings and arrows from some on this forum. I know we are mostly all just log in names here, but it still can eat at a guy to be screwed then criticized.

What a disappointment!

We all make mistakes in Biz, get overbooked, etc., but I am sure if this guy had been upfront, and told you he blew it, and even sent you $50 a month (who can't afford that?) with a promise to make it right, he would still be in a category of a disappointment, a poor manager of his business. But to duck, bob and weave is truly malevolent.

It will come right- try not to let it eat at you. Your health, your sleep and your well being are more important than the money. That said..... GIT HIM!

quote:

We are all working stiffs, in one form or another, and when we get the chance to bust loose some cash for a little reward, be it a hunt or a rifle, I know it takes on extra meaning- we think about it, dream about it, look forward to it..

Then someone comes along and basically screws us, strings us along. At first we are hesitant to raise a stink, we are patient, we believe in the others good will, and then it gets nasty.

Plus one, this situation has played out many, many times before. The names and dollar amounts change.

I too have had similar problems, albeit not to the same expense. But I did not let it spin out of control, thanks to this posting and many similar that have come before.

I hope everything turns out OK for everyone involved.

Thanks for the kind words 404. Now for an update; Our attorney (mine and Howard's) were in court today and Hein FAILED TO APPEAR. subsequently, the judge issued a Bench warrant for his arrest. Now as to what happens next, who knows, but suffice to say, Hein will eventually have to appear in his orange suit & shackles and explain to the court why he failed to appear and own up to his obligations. Over to you learned attorneys for further amplifications & speculation. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks for the kind words 404. Now for an update; Our attorney (mine and Howard's) were in court today and Hein FAILED TO APPEAR. subsequently, the judge issued a Bench warrant for his arrest. Now as to what happens next, who knows, but suffice to say, Hein will eventually have to appear in his orange suit & shackles and explain to the court why he failed to appear and own up to his obligations. Over to you learned attorneys for further amplifications & speculation. jorge

Jorge beat me to it. I called him with an update earlier but this is my first chance to get to a computer.

As Jorge said he didn't show up. Our attorney requested and the judge issued a bench warrant. Eventually a deputy will get around to hunting him down and he will be cuffed and stuffed, hauled to court and required to post bail. At some point he will learn he can't continue to duck his issues. I feel bad for his family but this mess is entirely of his own doing.

Howard, You know you and the others didn't do this to him or his family. FUCK him, he did this to himself and his family. He is an outright thief, stealing parts, stock blanks and money.
You can bet your ass he will come up with bail money.
Good luck and hopefully the judge will go hard on this POS.

Pissing off a sitting judge is a real act of idiocy. Now he will have an arrest record. And if he cannot show cause as to why he failed to appear, he might be the winner of an all expense paid stay in one of our finer institutions.

With an arrest record, his FF&L will be at risk. Remember, is is a license. A license is a grant of permission from the state to engage in acts which are within the exclusive domain of the state. The state givith, and the state taketh away.

The ATF will obviously be interested in the circumstances of his mandated time out, which will probably lead them to the reason for the lawsuit in the first place. And that should trigger an audit that would make a proctologist blush. If he has used people's money as his own, he'll be lucky if all he risks is losing his license. If the ATF gathers enough evidence to form a reasonable suspicion that one of their licensees has defrauded paying customers, the matter will be referred to the US attorney. And every time he used the phone to rip people off, every time he emailed someone something untruthful in firtherance of his scheme, and every time he mailed a letter regarding the same, is a separate count of wire or mail fraud, in addition to the underlying offense. Last time I checked, the maximum penalty for wire fraud was 10 years. That's federal time, not time in the county jail.

For the want of a nail, a shoe was lost, for the want of a shoe, a horse was lost.....

His lawyer didn't even appear?

Jim: According to our lawyer, Hein stopped communicating with his own lawyer after he reneged on his confession of guilt and agreed to pay us by the 15th of October of last year. All I wanted was my friggin' rifle or at least a reasonable and truthful explanation as to what was going on. This has been one FUBAR experience and I'm out over 8K. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
With a bench warrant (I am assuming for failure to appear or for contempt) Hein can be out and about for a long time. They don't generally try to serve those types of warrants. If he gets stopped for a traffic violation then it will pop up and he will be taken into custody. However, if it happens to him in another county then they are liable to just inform him of the warrant and let him go. Often the Sheriff or police don't want to deal with that type of warrant out of county.

If I lived in the Moses Lake area (wink) and I had some time on my hands, I'd go observe Hein at home or work to verify he is present. Then I would call the local Sheriff (or police if in the city) and ask for an officer to respond. They will take the info, verify the warrant is still outstanding using the state's database system, and then serve the warrant, i.e. take him into custody. That's the best way to get him picked up. Otherwise he is liable to dodge the warrant for years. Yes, I said years.

If you can get a copy of the warrant it will make it easier. Otherwise, you will need all the pertinent data. It would also be a good idea to talk to the sheriff's office before you made the trip to let them know what you were up to. They could verify the warrant in the meantime.

I have contacts, yes its being worked on. Thankfully Douglas County has a very low work load and needs a little excitement.

One should remember that there are basically two kinds of contempt of court: criminal and civil. (criminal contempt is usually based upon a wrongdoer doing something directly against the court such as using insulting language or hitting a judge, etc.) Based upon the evidence as has been presented, it would appear that the Judge issued a bench warrant based upon civil contempt (he didn't show up for a hearing requested by the opposing party). A person usually will not go to prison for civil contempt. They might sit in a local jail for awhile, and it is often said they have the keys to the door in that if they obey the order of the court they will be released.

What was the contempt here? It was failure to appear for a hearing to provide testimony concerning his assets so that collection proceedings could continue. So if he is arrested, he will be brought in front of the Judge to make that explanation. Once he does that he would probably no longer be in contempt so far as the court is concerned, and then it would be up to the opposing party to continue collection efforts.

I am not familiar with Washington law, but I have never heard of a person being found in civil contempt for not paying a judgment (except in certain family law cases where there is a specific statute that provides for contempt). We don't have debtor's prisons in the USA.

In many states a Judgement does act as a lien on real estate in the county in which the Judgment was obtained, and you can go to other counties and register the judgment there. Sometimes you can even get In Rem and Quasi in Rem Jurisdiction for parties not resident to the state if they have property in the State. The problem with that is that in most states a certain amount of real (and personal) property is usually exempt from collection.

I hope you guys get your money.

I've been loosely following this situation. I did some EDM work for Hein a couple of years ago. Glad I insist on being paid for work before sending it out......

quote:

Last year I watched as a young man sat in a Washington court for a traffic violation. He arrived one hour late and, other than myself, the judge and he were the only ones in court. The judge chastised him for wasting her time by showing up late. She ordered him to appear in traffic court the next day and, to make sure he wouldn't be late, she had him held in the county jail overnight.

Quite a different story. That was failure to appear for a "criminal" matter. That was criminal contempt.

As I stated, he might sit in a local jail for a little while, but probably not more than for the hearing to commence.

(He will probably come in and claim that he didn't know when the hearing was because his attorneys didn't tell him when it was. They probably told him when it was when they notified him they were going to withdraw from his case, most likely becasue he failed to make a payment on his bill , but that is only speculation)

[quote]The Washington legislature has decriminalized many traffic, parks, wildlife and fisheries offenses. /quote]

Gee, maybe I should move to Washington!

Man, I wish somebody that lived close to him would do a "recce" for us and see if he is even there! jorge

Jorge,
Simply call the local Sheriff or Police Dept.
Tell them you have not been able to contact the guy who has your rifle. You want to know if he is still alive or has moved. I bet they will go check it out and call you. maybe they might have a copy of the warrant in their computer system while they are out there?

Where are all the Hein supporters now?

Do they still think that they are going to get their rifles any time soon?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Jorge,
Simply call the local Sheriff or Police Dept.
Tell them you have not been able to contact the guy who has your rifle. You want to know if he is still alive or has moved. I bet they will go check it out and call you. maybe they might have a copy of the warrant in their computer system while they are out there?

Howard, what do you think? PM or call me if this is worth pursuing. jorge

If I had sent Hein any money or blanks, I would be pretty constipated right now!

Fjold..+1 on the Hein supporters comment.
I realize you guys are already out a great deal of money, but what about hiring a skip tracer, bounty hunter, private detective or something like that locally to try and track him down? I don't know if this has been discussed already as I didn't go through all 19 pages of postings. Just a thought. Good luck and I hope you get everything that you lost, and I hope Greg gets everything he deserves!!

Just out of curiosity has anyone checked with ATF to see if he has manufactured ANY rifles in the past year or two? Manufacturers are required to file a report annually detailing their production stats.

Cheers,
Andy

just checking.

Andy: To my knowledge nobody has. The bottom line is that I'm screwed and so are countless others here. The law favors the perpetrator. If I could go "collect" my money on my own, I'd probably wind up in jail.

As I've said before, all I can do is chalk this up to a "Lesson Learned": Guys like me of modest means should never tread where the affluent frolic. The 8.5K I lost hurts a LOT and that's that. jorge

Jees Jorge, you deserve this less than anyone I know. About the time that you ordered your rifle I came very close to ordering one of Hein's supposed single shots. Instead I went with Martini and Hagn. I guess God looks out for drunks and fools, you are neither.

My best,
Josh

Any news on AR-merica's Most Wanted?

As for what can be gotten out of him in the end, grapevine info was that Greg's daddy put up the money for the busienss. The elder Hein is supposed to be soemwhat comfortable with plenty of assets to cover the gun business problems.

I have heard that WFH is an LLC, but that would not worry me if Greg was still screwing me. Well, is not the best situation, but what I am getting at is that given Greg's businses practices in general, I feel emmenintely confident that his coporate veil is quite "piercable." And that leads right back to his daddy as well. Will take longer, more work, and is not as much of a sure thing in court, but I really do think he will have no coporate protection and he will be found personably liable in the end.

I stopped reading this thread after my last post and all of the stuff going on at the time. But tonight I read Howard say there was a court appearance and i opened this thread in the hopes that Greg at leats made a payment or something like that. Anything resembling a good faith effort on his part would have been great in my book.

The only reason I am writing this post is as a warning to any business owner reading this. Get some form of corporate protection and then follow the laws regarding corporate vs. private actions. They are a royal pain in the ass to me, but I see them as a necessary evil and do it correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
As for what can be gotten out of him in the end, grapevine info was that Greg's daddy put up the money for the busienss. The elder Hein is supposed to be soemwhat comfortable with plenty of assets to cover the gun business problems.

I have heard that WFH is an LLC, but that would not worry me if Greg was still screwing me. Well, is not the best situation, but what I am getting at is that given Greg's businses practices in general, I feel emmenintely confident that his coporate veil is quite "piercable." And that leads right back to his daddy as well. Will take longer, more work, and is not as much of a sure thing in court, but I really do think he will have no coporate protection and he will be found personably liable in the end.

I stopped reading this thread after my last post and all of the stuff going on at the time. But tonight I read Howard say there was a court appearance and i opened this thread in the hopes that Greg at leats made a payment or something like that. Anything resembling a good faith effort on his part would have been great in my book.

The only reason I am writing this post is as a warning to any business owner reading this. Get some form of corporate protection and then follow the laws regarding corporate vs. private actions. They are a royal pain in the ass to me, but I see them as a necessary evil and do it correctly.

So what you are saying is that Hein should have had better corporate protection to protect his family assets after he screwed people out of their money?

quote:

The only reason I am writing this post is as a warning to any business owner reading this. Get some form of corporate protection and then follow the laws regarding corporate vs. private actions. They are a royal pain in the ass to me, but I see them as a necessary evil and do it correctly

Oh what excellent advice. Make sure you protect yourself and family so when you screw and down right steal from your customers they can do nothing about it. To hell with the customer the one without which you would have no business in the frist place.

I don't usually see eye to eye with Mr. Stokeld, but I don't think he was implying that Mr. Hein should be exonerated for stealing property and money from Howard, Jorge, and others.

Rather, I think that Mr. Stokeld was trying to give legal advice.

It may have been a bit better if he would have stated it this way:

In you intend to start a business you should pay careful consideration to the pros and cons afforded by each of the three main business entities, namely proprietorship, partnership, and the various forms of corporation. One of the benefits of choosing a corporate entity is that a corporation is a creature of the state, and as such, operates upon a charter and is given powers and privileges by the state where its charter is located. Most often, one of the privileges that the owners (stockholders) of a corporation have is that they may protect their private assets from creditors of the corporation.

For example, at one time, and possibly still to this day, Deleware Law provided:

"The certificate of incorporation may contain any of the following matters:

(6) A provision imposing personal liability for the debts of the corporation on its stockholders or members to a specified extent and upon specified conditions; otherwise, the stockholders or members of a corporation shall not be personally liable for the payment of the corporation's debts except as they may be liable by reason of their own conduct or acts."

The reasons often given for the need for limited liability are:

1. Limited liability decreases the need to monitor.
2. Limited liability reduces the cost of monitoring other shareholders.
3. Limited liability reduced costs of purchasing shares. (i.e. it makes shares fungible)
4. Limited liability makes it possible for market prices to impound additional information about the value of firms.
5. Limited liability allows more effecient diversification.
6. Limited liability facilitates optimal investment decisions.


However, you may still be subject to the Piercing of the Corporate Veil.

The law permits the incorporation of a business for the very purpose of enabling its proprietors to escape personal liability, but the priviliege is not without limits, just as free speach is not without limits. Just as you cannot go into a crowded theatre and yell "fire" the Courts will disregard the corporate form, or to use accepted terminology, will "pierce the corporate veil" whenever necessary to prevent fraud and to achieve equity. Usually, when a court looks to determine whether the "Corporate Veil" should be pierced the court will refer to the general rules of "agency". In other words, whenever anyone uses control of the corporation to further his own rather than the corporation's business, he/she will be liable for the corporation's acts upon the principle of "respondent superior" even where the agent is a natural person. And usually, such liability extends not only to the corporations commercial dealings but to its negligent and criminal acts as well.

So for example, in the Enron case, many of the corporate executives in that case were not allowed to keep monies they claimed to have earned through the corporation because they committed either grossly negligent or criminal acts.

Here, in the instant case, Mr. Hein has basically committed criminal acts, or if not, has been grossly negligent in his duties to protect other people's property in a bailment type transaction. At the very least Mr. Hein could be considered an absconding debtor.