338WM/340WEA; Either with 210-250 gr bullets.

I have a lot of confidence in anything Phil Shoemaker says. He knows whereof he speaks. It's unwise to argue with firsthand knowledge born of experience.

Having said that I think that Phil is a very skilled marksman with about ANY rifle he chooses to use for a particular purpose. After all, he WAS a sniper in Vietnam and has shot competitively. He's also practiced a great deal with MANY rifles/cartridges for various scenarios, and has used a variety in actual hunting/guiding situations. And he appears cool-headed under stress!

Most of us fall somewhat to far short of all those appellations! I know I do despite being on the senior side of Phil's age.

I've worked on a "clean-kill" ballistic formula for my own purposes based largely on Phil's successful use of the .30-06 with 200gr - 220gr premium bullets on wounded trophy-size BB at "bad breath" distance. And I have to agree that the 'ole .30-06 is sufficient for such purposes, if not ideal.

However, NOT having his experience, NOR skill sets, my personal choice for BIG bear, black, brown or white, would be something that shoots .458" bullets, like the 350gr TSX. At the very least, it would give me more confidence! For the rest of North America? A 300 Win Mag.

I have both a .458 Win Mag and a .300 Win Mag, and shoot them equally as well. I think at least 2 rifles are needed in North America, unless your name is "Phil Shoemaker"!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

Having said that I think that Phil is a very skilled marksman with about ANY rifle he chooses to use for a particular purpose. After all, he WAS a sniper in Vietnam and has shot competitively.



Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Phil, in all the year's I am on here, I did not know the above. Can you confirm for us that this is accurate? Army, or Marines ?

.338 all the way around.....

Cold Zero;

The article by Phil, where he mentions having been a sniper in Vietnam, was in a Wolfe publication where he writes on "The Misunderstood Carbine", I believe. I don't have time just now to look it up, but I'm certain that was the piece. I think it was in that same issue where he mentions having been a competitive shooter. (I may be wrong about where he mentions the latter, but if memory serves, I believe it was in the same article). He can correct that if so inclined. The publication was perhaps 3 - 4 years ago.

I should add too that when I mentioned above choosing something in .458" for close encounters with a BB, I'd also include the .45-70 with modern powders and bullets. It's only a short step behind the formidable .458 WM. I have three, of which two are single shots. The other is an 1895 Marlin Classic with 22" tube that will give 4000 ft-lbs at the muzzle with the right load. My Ruger No.1 in .45-70, with a long throat, will equal any .458 WM with a 22" barrel. It's been tested by a well-known powder co. in the USA. It's far-and-away my favorite rifle.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Orig. post was Nov. "05"; have you/he yet done the AK bear hunt? How did it go?

As to the selection of all round cartridge, here is my .02 cents: I did three guided trips to AK & NWT for Dall sheep; the four Ak guides in camp all carried .338WM's; the Can. guide did not carry a gun. I felt a little undergunned with my .270Win, had we encountered a grizz.

My guide in B.C. for mtn. goat carried a S&W .357Mag., not very reassuring. I had a .300WSM. We did have a big grizz come within 100yds along the beach. (We watched from an island.)

On my second goat hunt out of Juneau, the guide packed a .300 RUM. I had my .300WSM.

My first AK BB hunt, near Port Heiden, I
carried a .338WM and my guide had a .375 H&H Mag. Second BB hunt, different area near Port Heiden, I carried the .338WM and my guide had a .458WM.

Now, here's the point: Not one of the AK guides carried anything less than a .30 Mag.
Most of the guides, outfitters, hunt consultants I have talked to over the years required a min of either .338WM or .300WM class. A few, if pushed would yield to .30-06.
This correlates with gunrag writers, for which I generally don't allow a whole lot of credence, with a few exceptions.

I think what we should be talking about is what is the OPTIMUM cartridge; not what will work.
We have all read stories about Eskimos killing polar bears with .22 cal's & Indians taking BB, etc, with the venerable .30-30. But you cannot convincingly argue they are the best for the purpose.

Things can go bad in a hurry with BB (and other critters)- and that's when you want all the power you need. Shot placement is just that and circumstances, whatever they are or their cause, may not happen. Now, if your shot is poor and you are charged what would you rather have? Its your choice.

I put my bear down at 30 yds with two shoulder shots (230gr Fail Safes), quartering towards us. My guides first shot was a clean miss. His second shot was insurance, instantly after it was down. At that distance, if I don't break it down and he misses, does someone get hurt? Shot placement was important but I also believe the cart./load were equally important.

If the question of one gun for all NA game EXCEPT BB/Grizz I would opt for .300WM, if I just had to use one gun. But, with big bears included I would opt for .338WM. I love the round: it will do it all with heavy bullets for the big stuff and lighter ones for the smaller stuff.

As for ease of use (not having to think about it, just automatic reaction) I have two Mod 70 Classic S/S, with 26" barrels, one the .338WM & one in .300WM. (I may be unique, but I never found the 26" barrels to be that much of a hindrance ,and, yes, I have spent time in
the alders). MY Kimber .300WSM seems like virtual twin to the Mod. 70.

Fortunately, I don't have to limit myself to just one gun. I have multiple other calibers and use them all for different uses,ie. antelope gun, deer gun, brush gun, mtn fifles (one for sheep another for goats) etc. I shoot and use them all: no problem with unfamiliarity.

Mind you, I am not opposed to the .30-06 or the 7mm Mag, if that's what you have and you are proficient with them: I just think there are better tools for the purpose if you are buying a new tool.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

Forget the 7mm's Get one that will do it all from Texas to Alaska a 35 Whelen!

My one gun for North America is a stainless model 70 in 338-06 and a stainless model 70 in 300 H&H. Since I only use them one at a time, my one gun can be either one.

Well I have seen the results of the 30-06 used on the big bears dating back to the late 1950'a. Most back then used those 220 grn Winchester Silver Tips.

However, some years ago, I was told by a very knowledgeable guide simply this: "If your gonna hunt the big bears, get yourself a model 70 Winchester in the .375H&H caliber. I followed his advice and some years later down the road of life, I even upped that to a .416 cal in a model 70. There is a lot to learn about bears in the wild and they are all different mind you.

So it pays to have a very experienced guide, with a very good track record, who understands your wants and communicates well on your level.

quote:

Originally posted by Blue Dog:
Well I have seen the results of the 30-06 used on the big bears dating back to the late 1550'a. Most back then used those 220 grn Winchester Silver Tips.

However, some years ago, I was told by a very knowledgeable guide simply this: "If your gonna hunt the big bears, get yourself a model 70 Winchester in the .375H&H caliber. I followed his advice and some years later down the road of life, I even upped that to a .416 cal in a model 70. There is a lot to learn about bears in the wild and they are all different mind you.

So it pays to have a very experienced guide, with a very good track record, who understands your wants and communicates well on your level.

Agree completely with Blue Dog. While the 30-06 is perfectly adequate for big bears and is my choice for a single cartridge capable of safely taking any N American big game. - If you live in big bear country or seriously plan on hunting more than one big bear, then the .375 (either H&H or Ruger) is probably your best choice.

my vote is 9.3x62,one of best rounds ever

1)375 H&H
2)340 WBY

If I mainly hunted in brown/grizzly bear country alone, then probably a .338 9,3 or .375

If I occasionally visited bear country but mostly hunted elsewhere, a .280AI

or something like that

325 WSM...the perfect choice between the 30-06 and 338 WM

This is so old I may be repeating. 338-06 BTDT with brown bear, moutain caribou, moose but yet to have a need in the lower 48. best all around NA round known to man IMHO. Yes, have and shoot the 338WM but it is not needed.

quote:

Originally posted by muygrande:
This is so old I may be repeating. 338-06 BTDT with brown bear, moutain caribou, moose but yet to have a need in the lower 48. best all around NA round known to man IMHO. Yes, have and shoot the 338WM but it is not needed.

+1

At least, to the part about this thread being so old.

I imagine since he started this thread 5 1/2 years ago that Dr B has purchased his All (North) American rifle.

But I'll still toss in my two cents. I was thinking along the lines of muygrande that the .338-06 would be the ideal split-the-difference rifle.

After reflecting on it, I just don't see what the .338-06 with 250 grain bullets could do that a .30-06 can't also do with 240 grain Woodleighs. Assuming the Woodleighs perform as advertised (and I hear they usually do) that combo would give you the kind of performance that had the old elephant hunters praising the .318 Westley Richards up one slope of Kilimanjaro and down the other. It certainly should be enough for the occassional bear, although if I were to make a steady diet of it I'd like a bit more oomph.

I'd say it depends upon the mix of hunting you plan on doing. If your emphasis is on the lower 48 and primarily game up to elk, get the .30-06. If your emphasis is on Alaska and heavy game like moose, get a .338WM. With 160 grain bullets you won't feel ridiculous when you're sniping pronghorns on one of your occasional forays south, and if your rifle shoots them accurately it's actually a pretty good long range combo.

If you plan on making a living as a bear hunter, get a .416 (sorry, Phil, I really like my .416). But then if Dr B was planning on making a living as a bear hunter, he wouldn't have been asking (5 1/2 years ago) about one gun for North America.

For a general purpose rifle you can use anywhere in North America, you really can't beat the .30-06. And given the wide range of bullets available, it's better than ever.

Most All of my shooting is done at relativily close range. Last years moose was + or - 200, my dall sheep was the same and the last bear was 50 yards or so.

On the other hand, on the same hunt I took my close sheep on my partner thru a series of unfortunate circumstances had to reach a long way for his ram and his 270 win performed admirably.

For an "all around," cartridge, I do not believe the bigger, slower, heavier models are a prudent choice. A dall ram going away fast at long range doesn't call for a big slug going slow.

A 30-06 or .300 win slinging a 180g tsx hits hard, penetrates well, carries long and comes in a managable size . No moose, bear or mtn goat can outlast a well placed shot and these same cartridges come with the capacity for extended ranges.

True, I do generally use larger cartridges an in fact last years bull fell to a 9.3. That rifle will in all likelyhood never see use outside of AK or even Dillingham for that matter. My 30-06 goes in the hard case for the airline trips.

For those of you that might have missed some good reading .... ?

quote:

" While we are talking about 45/70 and the wonderful bullets we have available from North Fork and CEB, let me put up the North Fork CPS bullets again, so you remember these two companies when ordering your bullets for 45/70!
We have the best bullets available now for 45/70 that we have ever in history produced. The North Fork 350 and 325 CPS (Cup Point Expanding) and now the 400/325 CEB BBW#13 Solids, matching NonCons at 370/295, it's never been better for 45/70. All will work through the Marlins without issue.... Michael"

Old thread.., " New Bullets " !


http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/154

PAPI

The trajectory of a .45 anything I think makes it unsuitable or at least not as suitable for long range sheep, mtn goat, caribou, etc.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
The trajectory of a .45 anything I think makes it unsuitable or at least not as suitable for long range sheep, mtn goat, caribou, etc.

True, but long range is not required for those animals. I've shot two sheep, one goat, and two caribou and all were less than 200 yards. That's easily attainable with even the lowly .45-70.

Hmmm..., looking over the chart posted on another website.

45-70 effective range
http://www.marlinowners.com/fo...p/topic,92246.0.html

The " old 45/70 " could make for a very reliable, all purpose Hunting Rifle @ " 200+ Yard ".., using the " New Bullets "

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by PAPI:
Hmmm..., looking over the chart posted on another website.

45-70 effective range
http://www.marlinowners.com/fo...p/topic,92246.0.html

The " old 45/70 " could make for a very reliable, all purpose Hunting Rifle @ " 200+ Yard ".., using the " New Bullets "

PAPI

Yeah, the Marlin is a great rifle for the .45-70--I've owned a bunch--but don't loose sight of the fact that you shouldn't load it much beyond 40,000 psi.

On the other hand, a RUGER NO.1 in 45-70 CAN SAFELY be loaded to 60,000 psi+, and I've owned and used a few of those as well. My current No.1 has been improved (long-throated) and easily matches a .458WM in ballistics. (And I've owned .458WMs as well). AND, you can use the Barnes TSXs in the Ruger. The 350 TSX leaves the muzzle of my Ruger at 2470 fps... That'll do it for at least 350 yds. And how about a 400gr spitzer at 2400 fps?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Just an " UPDATE ": R&D New Plastic Tips Inserts to improve " B.C. ".





Page # : 178
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/178

PAPI

300 wsm for me

Why the hell would anyone only want one gun?

quote:

Originally posted by JA:
Why the hell would anyone only want one gun?

I'd rather have one really good rifle and hunt more than a half dozen mediocre ones and hunt less.

quote:

Originally posted by JabaliHunter:

quote:

Originally posted by JA:
Why the hell would anyone only want one gun?

I'd rather have one really good rifle and hunt more than a half dozen mediocre ones and hunt less.

+1

When you do almost all of your hunting with one rifle, it tends to become part of you. You can take a 400 yard shot at a mule deer with confidence (though that's not a long shot anymore for a lot of folks), and take on something with teeth up close and personal because the rifle swings quickly and naturally and the sight picture is always there. My 70s vintage Rem 700 BDL in 270 fit the bill for me for the lower 48 for 30 years. That being said, I'm not there right now. I gave my 270 to my youngest son, my 500 Jeffery which I like a lot isn't a long range rifle, and is wood/blued so not a great choice for Alaska (besides weighing 11 lbs with scope). I'm hoping my new Rem XCR II in 375 Weatherby (which weighs 7 3/8 lbs with scope) will fill that gap for me eventually.

For those of you not keeping up with the " Big Bore Forum; Terminal Bullet Performance ".


370 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tips insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. .634

420 BBW#13 NonCon with a plastic tip insert: Preliminary testing estimate (458 B&M) ; B.C. .657
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/179

45-70 Effective Range: Ridgerunner665 : " Put a real bullet in those tables... "
http://www.marlinowners.com/fo...p/topic,92246.0.html

I'll take advantage of any information & improvements: " Better Bullets ", whenever possible.

PAPI

quote:

Originally posted by tsturm:
.376 Steyr or .375 H&H

My thoughts exactly. Use 270 or 300gr bullets for the big mean stuff and 225gr bullets for deer, antelope, etc. Maybe throw in the .375 Ruger.

why on earth would you want just 'one gun?'

OTOH, i guess I only want one gun... ONE MORE!