Bullet construction also make a big difference on expansion. If I really wanted to shoot from asshole to lungs on a bear with a 7mm cal I would use a 160 failsafe. Even if you drove it hard out of a big 7mm the bullet is going to get there. Infact if you ask me the failsafes alsmost need to be driven hard to expand enough. But you are not going to be shooting a bear in the ass with any round. You will be shooting him broadside and you only need to get into the lungs and the bear is dead. I know for a fact a 175 Partition or X bullet or 160 Failsafe would break the shoulder and make it into the lungs or through the ribs. I have shot through the webbing of an old Rail road track with a 7mm mag and 175 Partitons at 50 yards. I was just making the point that people think you need an elephant gun to kill a bear and you dont. You might need a bigger gun for a charge but that is what your guide is for. Hell I have had some people tell me on here that a 375 H&H is not big enough for BB's you need a 40+ cal to do the job. When I go I will be packing a 375 H&H improved but I am not going with a guide. I am going with my B-law. If I was going guided and didnt have the 375 I would take the 300 win or the 7mm STW and call it a day.

I like the .375 H&H but you would be better off with a .300 of some kind due to bullet selection. they can be loaded for small to large for brown bears.

quote:

Originally posted by JBabcock:

...But the first priority is to take away their wheels. Then you kill them...

That's a cool way to think about it, from a Bus Driver's perspective...

Since the Topic IS about ALL game in North America, then the .338 is a pretty good projectile to launch.
It's enough to put the brakes on most anything here, and it will still 'fly' and 'penetrate' at distances most hunters won't or shouldn't be shooting at.

quote:

Since the Topic IS about ALL game in North America, then the .338 is a pretty good projectile to launch.
It's enough to put the brakes on most anything here, and it will still 'fly' and 'penetrate' at distances most hunters won't or shouldn't be shooting at.

I gave up on the one gun concept many years ago, even for Alaska. What's great for hunting brown bear in the alder thickets and devils club usually isn't the rifle I want to lug to the top of a mountain and make a 400 yard shot on a Dall Sheep or Mountain Goat. Throw in differing terrain, different animal sizes, different hunting styles (stand hunting, still hunting, spot and stalk, etc...) and I don't think we can ask one rifle/cartridge combo to all things equally well across this great country of ours.

Guess what it really comes down to is matching the gun and cartridge (and bullet) to the game hunted and the way it will be hunted. A half dozen would be better. I suppose you could perform admirably with 3 or 4. When you get down to two, either you will miss fleeting opportunities or you won't hunt as effectively as you could with a rifle/cartridge combo more tailored for the job.

Even when thinking about deer hunting, still hunting or tracking deer through a thick nasty swamp or cutover pine thicket would call for a different rifle than one you would use sitting over a big beanfield or sendero, seems to me.

I think we owe it to the game we hunt use the most effective rifle/cartridge/bullet combo for that particular animal and hunting situation.

If you are looking to build a super expensive custom rifle in one chambering, do that with the one that matches the most of the hunting you will do (both animals and hunting type). But then pick up a rifle/rifles (and make sure it is dependable and works as necessary) for whatever the first rifle isn't ideal for. Depending on your income (Dr? Doctor?) it may or may not take a few years to save up for another rifle or two after the custom rifle commission.

quote:

Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

Of the two I would pick the RUM.

Personally, I would like something that makes a bigger hole to use on big bears.

Living in the lower 48, if I could only own one rifle, I would pick a 30 caliber something.
In all honesty probably a 30-06 or 300 WM.

If I was living in Alaska, probably a 338-06 or 338 WM.

o.k., rolling up the sleeves.

how about a winchester m70 classic in .30-.06 with either a handloaded 200 n.p. loaded hot or in a factory load federal h.e. 180 n.p.

for scope how about a zeiss conquest in 3.5-10x44m.

i would feel comfortable going up against anything in n. america with this set up, deadly.

works great for me...

If this forum is for picking one rifle for ALL N AM game including bears (instead of simply who's favorite big bore is potentially a better bear slayer) and all you are looking at is one or two bears in a lifetime then anything from the .270 thru the .338 will fit the bill perfectly. My vote is with the 30-06 because I have one that I have used all over the globe but I certaily wouldn't argue with anyone who chooses a 7mm or 300 magnum either.

i think phil is making sense here.

i tried to take my .30-.06 brown bear hunting but the guide would not allow a .30 cal.

for most bears with the proper shot placement i think it will get the job done. however, i think that the over 10' bears are like a different animal and a larger gun is required. shot placement with an adequate load is the key here. not who has just come out with the latest magnum. the bear won't know...

for the 8'6" to 9' + bears, the .30-.06 with the right load is plenty of gun for the job. i do not like to shoot any animal in the lungs, i like shots into the shoulder, hopefully at an angle to hit both shoulders or the neck. high in the neck if the shot is close and lower in the neck farther out. drops them like nobodys busines. no tracking required.

The 06 with any of the new premium bullets is perfectly adequate for ANY Brown Bear including "ten footers". Anyone who claims different has either not tried it or is commenting on their marksmanship.

.458 win:

we have a slight difference of opinion here.

I am a great beleiver in the .30-.06 and the set up that i have on mine. I feel that it is perfectly adequate for most of the b.b.,in most situations. However, I feel that the over 10' bears are much harder to kill and cling to life greater.

If hunting trophy bears over 10' only, then .30-06. is a marginal choice i.m.h.o.. who would spend $15,000 on a brown bear hunt and not use premium quality bullets? no one that should be hunting brown bear.

as for experience, actually i do, except my bear was closer to 11' feet and not ten. i beleive had I used my .30-06, as was my original intention, my bear would have escaped into the brush. had i not seen this situation unfold with my own eyes, I would not have beleived it. I was prepared to bet my own life on the .30-06, i have that much faith in it. Fortunately, I have the whole episode on video.

As for my marksmanship, 5 hits on 5 shots, out to 300 yds. all fatal hits, including one running shot is nothing to be embarrased about...I doubt if you could have done any better.

Cold Zero - In twenty-five years my clients have killed quite a few bears that made B&C with skulls over 28 inches, a few over 29 inches and one that went 30 8/16" by AK F&G measurements. By my measurements none have been much over an honest 10 foot when laid flat on the ground. How big was the skull on your eleven foot bear?
I have personally killed ten foot bears with my 30-06 that clients had wounded with larger rifles so will stand by my assessment that the 30-06 is a perfectly adequate rifle so long as the shooter is up to it.
But, since I have never killed an eleven foot bear and don't believe in shooting dangerous game at 300 yards I will have take your advice that the 06 is minimal.

.458;

I am well familiar with your record. in fact, i advised a fellow s.c.i. chapter member to go with you for his bear and he decided on another outfitter on kodiak and ended up with 0. what you should be proud of is your record of satisfied customers, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder many times.

It sounds like the bears you shot were already wounded by clients shooting heavy calibers. maybe the ten footer/s go down a little easier after your clients already have put 1-4 bullets into the bear?

I too don't beleive in shooting dangerous game at 300 yds. after running the gun dry, 4 shots to the chest. By the time i could rip one round off the buttstock and chamber it, the bear had already gotten up and ran 100 yds., one bound from going into the high alders. Of course i am going to take the 300 yd. shot, the alternative is tracking an angry wounded bear in the heavy brush. This is part of the reason guides like to keep shots close, increases fatal hit probability and deceases the chances of having a wounded bear escape.

Skull was 28 and 3. D. & C. expediters said it was the largest bodied bear that they had ever had thru there. Another long time outfitter present, said it was the largest bodied one he ever saw in the field or out.

What i said was, "it is marginal on the larger (read 10' + ) bears". i think .30-06 is perfectly adequate for grizzly or the avg. size brown bear.

Most guys hunt b.b. one time in their life, why handicap yourself on the angles shots can be taken and the distance, 100 vs. 200 yds. I would rather tilt the odds towards success, not away. if a guy shot a 10' + bear with his .30-06 and then the bear got up and ran and the guide had to put it down, how many guys would be happy about that? How many guys with .30-06 in hand, would turn down a 200 yd. shot on a B. & C. bear at an angle, near brush with no chance to move up? I think we know the answer.

Like you said and i said above, more guys should concentrate on shot placement, marksmanship and matching the gun to the hunter's ability to handle it, instead of what the newest super magnum that came out yesterday is capable of. Guns that can shoot 600 yds., hunters can not be accurate at the distances that technology or marketing is trying to convince them of.

cold zero. Sounds like your 28 inch bear was a real good one. I also agree completely on your opinions with the exception of the 30-06 being adequate for big bears. As you know they can carry a lot of lead under some circumstances and that is not related in any way to their size as far as I can tell. I have seen many 9 foot bears soak up round after round of .338 and .375 bullets as well. I have no doubt the one you killed could take a lot of killing but I'd bet a .338 would have made little -if any -difference. There is not much difference in performance between a 220gr .308 Partition and a 250 gr .338 Partition.
I am not recommending the 30-06 as the best bear round - just pointing out the fact that in capable hands it is adequate. And I'll stick to that. The SD and construction of top quality 200 and 220 .308 bullets are as good as, and often better, than many other highly reguarded big bear rounds.

458win;

you and I agree 99% of the time and maybe we have a small disagreement here. there is no else on this site with your experience and shooting one bear does not make me an expert, just someone with an opinion.

If I did not see it with my own eyes, how much lead a bigg bear could carry I would not have beleived it. I am glad that i have great video of it, because looking back, i still can't beleive it. I thought with 2 thoroughly broken shoulders and heart and both lungs and liver shredded they would not be able to run, especially uphill at a high rate of speed. The only way to stop him cold was the final shot was a neck shot.

I have a Winchester that I bought the first year that win' re introduced the claw extractor as "The Classic". I bought it in .30-06 with the Boss system in stainless steel and synthetic stock, then had it bedded and a trigger job and a 3-9x40mm Nikon scope on it. This is what I wanted to use with 220 gr. n.p. bullets for the b.b.. The outfitter would not take me with a .30 caliber.

I should have made it more clear above, that I did use a .340 wthby. with 250 gr. n.p. This may have been the perfect set up for the situation I was in with a leupold 2.5-8x40mm on it. That gun hits like thunder coming down out of the heavens and it still could not kill the bear fast enough. I could knock him down everytime, but he would not stay down. I emptied the gun into him and it was not enough. I carry with an empty chamber, so that gives me 3 in the magazine. I hand loaded the chamber before the shooting started so that I would have 4 bullets in the gun and that was not enough. One round made a hole in the chest about the size of my size 8 hiking boot could fit into. We found several mushroomed bullets resting up against the hide on the far side. Great penetration at a distance with no exit. The hide was like thick , wet stinky elastic. This is the reason that I say that the .30-06 set up that I mentioned above would not have done as well as the set up that I did use, that also did not do so well. The first shot broke both shoulders and should have dropped and killed him on the spot. Dropped him yes, killed him no.

I dug the photo album out of the basement and know womeone with a photo scanner that will scam the photos for me. If you would like me to send you the photos let me know.

I still love the .30-06 and still feel that it is adequate for all n. american big game, although not perfect in all situations for all animals.

Cold zero would love to see the pic, and that bear must have been one tough animal !!

Not trying to argue with anybody here, specially 458, simply because compared to him I have no experience in relation to bear hunting. All I have to say is that I completely agree that the 220-grain .30-caliber bullet does have a great SD, even more than a 250-grain .338-caliber bullet. However, since I am a big chicken when it comes to bears, I feel much more confident with a 250-grain bullet coming out of a .338 barrel at nearly 2700 fps than any 220 grainer coming out of a .308.

Again, I am not trying to argue. That's the way I stand relating to my own sense of security, that's all.

I have learned that it doesn't really matter a whole lot what rifle a bear hunter carries IF HE CAN USE IT. This afternoon I was just re-reading Jim Reardon's new book where he discusses the world record Brown Bear hunt. That bear, which they estimated weighed 1300-1400 pounds, squared an honest (as opposed to streched) 10' 5". Ray Lindsey killed it at 30 yards with his 30-06 and 180 gr bullets - which he prefered over the .405.
If using bigger rifles make you feel better then use one. I carry my 458 when guiding for the same reason, but to argue that the 30-06 is insufficient for big bears is to ignore facts.

I have seen lots of animals take hits from rifles over and over and they did not want to go down and the rifle was plenty big. A few years ago I watched a whitetail deer take 4 hits through the ribs with a 7mm STW and kept going. After finding it when we opened it up there was no vitals left heart and everything was gone. Would I say this rifle is to small for deer? No way just some animals take more killng then others. If 458 says the 7mm or 30/06 will work for all BB's then I will take his word for it.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I have learned that it doesn't really matter a whole lot what rifle a bear hunter carries IF HE CAN USE IT. This afternoon I was just re-reading Jim Reardon's new book where he discusses the world record Brown Bear hunt. That bear, which they estimated weighed 1300-1400 pounds, squared an honest (as opposed to streched) 10' 5". Ray Lindsey killed it at 30 yards with his 30-06 and 180 gr bullets - which he prefered over the .405.
If using bigger rifles make you feel better then use one. I carry my 458 when guiding for the same reason, but to argue that the 30-06 is insufficient for big bears is to ignore facts.

Phil: A few years ago I saw a picture of a large bear killed in Kodiak by a woman. her husband and her where hunting bears, and this bear charged her a close range. She shot it on the head one time with a 7mm mouser, killing the bear instantly. I have no idea of what bullet she used, but saw the picture and read the story at a gas station in Glenn Allen. Supposedly she made the records book for being the first woman killing a brown bear in Kodiak during a charge.

quote:

Originally posted by dakor:
I have seen lots of animals take hits from rifles over and over and they did not want to go down and the rifle was plenty big. A few years ago I watched a whitetail deer take 4 hits through the ribs with a 7mm STW and kept going. After finding it when we opened it up there was no vitals left heart and everything was gone. Would I say this rifle is to small for deer? No way just some animals take more killng then others. If 458 says the 7mm or 30/06 will work for all BB's then I will take his word for it.

Now that you mention it, there is a hunter who has posted here in the past. He was telling a bear hunting story that happened to him and his hunting partner. Both of them were "brown" hunting, and found one. He was carrying a .338WM with 250-grain bullets, and his friend a .375 H&H (loaded with 300 grainers I assume). The both shot the bear several times each, and the bear ran. They waited a few minutes before tracking it, and the bear charged them while they tracked it. Again they fired both rifles several times, stopping and killing the bear when it was almost on top of them. These guys swore to never again use any rifle smaller than a .416 when hunting brown bears.
-----
I imagine that most of the shots had not been lethal, but even so I can only assume that some bears can take quite a lot of lead before dropping. I have heard quite a lot of stories like the one above.

In terms of muzzle and retained bullet energy generated by a relatively heavy bullet I have to vote for the 338 Winchester Magnum. It also provides this killing power in a reasonable weight rifle with "acceptable" recoil. When used in conjunction with 250 grain Nosler Partition bullets in the Federal High energy loads it has met my expectations for a variety of large game animals. I must admit though when I have been in grizzly country I backed up my wife who carried the 338 with a 458 Winchester Magnum with 400 grain Woodleigh Protected Point bullets.

I think it comes down to what you shoot well and what makes you feel comfortable. Like Ray I'm way more comfortable with a 338 or 416 in my hands than a 30/06 or 7mag when in bear country.If a person is is bothered by alot of recoil,I've always liked the 35whelen with a premium 250gr at 2500-2550 fps.
458- do you have much experience with the 35 whelen used on brown bear by yourself or clients?
thanks

Why have one rifle for North American when you can have one rifle for the world. Of coarse I'm talking about the .375 H&H. Actually my do all rifle is a .375 RUM because I prefer hunting rifles with short barrels, and I get the same velocity with my 21" barrel as is normal with a 26" H&H. With the huge range of high quality bullets available in .375 caliber there isn't much it wont do.

I had this rifle built on a Brno 602 for polar bear work, and I also carry it for caribou, moose and seals. Next summer it will accompany me to Tanzania for buffalo.

.338 Win Mag will cover just about everything on North America...

If I were to only have one caliber for all N. Amer. hunting, including throwing in the great bears, it would be either the 338-06 or 35 Whelen. Take the big bears out of the equation, and I'd be happy with a 6.5x55 or .260 Rem.
A 45-70 loaded properly would do it all too, if the fellow was a real hunter, and not just another "I need a big belted mag to kill stuff at 300 yds kind of guy". Heck, I have friends who hunt everything, including brown bears, with a longbow, infact ,I think that Monte Browning might still have the record books with his longbow killed Alaskan brownie.
Regards
Woody

300 winchester

will do just about everything you could ever want in NA

In any respect you must accept some compromise. The Brown bear hunt would be the main concern for a 7mm. But being that you are not an Alaska resident you must have a guide which means someone with a big boomer will be backing up your shot. Bison would be the other problem. The 7mm would be fine for all but probably two hunts you will ever do. Then again, If you can ever afford a big bear hunt you should be able to afford a 338 or 375 as a second rifle.

.35 Whelen

--- --- . 416 Model 70 or Mauser ; --- and forget the open country , long-range stuff . ----- You have to give something up the minute you specify " Brown Bear " .

---------------- MMCOUGAR .

45/70 If it was good enough for Geronimo, It's good enough for me

I'll throw in my 2 bits here.

My "go to" gun is a .300 win mag that I generally use for just about everything I go after down in the Southeast area. It's a custom piece by Steve Romans based on a Rem 700 action, and it's easily the most accurate gun I've ever personally shot.

I also have Ruger #1 in .416 Rigby that I break out on occasion when I really feel "ornery", and so far I haven't had any problem killing deer with the .416.

Just me, choosing from what I have, if I were out in Alaska or somewhere moose/bear hunting, and a big grizzly broke through the underbrush charging towards me, and I could have my pick of rifles in my hand ... I'd want that .416 single-shot and take my chances on needing to reload.

And if you could build it up on a bolt-gun, so much the better. Lever guns like the BLRs and Marlin 18xx series are good, and excellent guns, but to me there's always the risk that they give a false sense of confidence knowing you've got a follow-up shot. I think the single-shot guns like the Ruger #1s of the world really make a person focus harder - even if just subconsciously, about putting that round where they want it.

Still - for dangerous game, I think a beefy lever gun like a .450 Marlin or a custom .50 Alaskan are solid and viable choices.

I wonder if Browning could do a BLR in .416 Rigby?



One gun to cover the NA hunting spectrum is great for theory, and if I had to pick one, I'd say .416Rigby first and .375HH second. My own opinion on things is when you're looking at tough, dangerous game that MIGHT KILL YOU on one end of the spectrum, that's the focal point that needs to be addressed, and everything else is secondary. If you're worried about recoil or accuracy on a bigger round, there's lots of things that can be done to help with recoil management on a rifle, but the most important of anything is to just shoot the gun enough that it's second nature to you.


I wouldn't look at it as the 7MM being "enough for 95%" of your shooting, but as the 7mm isn't enough for the 5% that's critically important to stop - RIGHT NOW.

We hash over these "one gun" questions quite a bit, and it seems to me that once we include the Brownies/Grizz we get stuck because it takes a fair amount of energy, penetration, diameter and momentum to deal with them under bad conditions in an ethical and safe manner. This simple fact leaves us with a caliber that is either excessive or lacks the trajectory for other applications in the west.

Given their habitat and stealth, it is sensible to carry a caliber that meets some of the DG requirements in Africa...at least the notion of an ancoring first shot. Like it or not, the threshold for stopping an aroused or even angry Brownie/Griz is the 375 H&H with 300 grain premium bullets. Yes this is overkill for most of the other game in NA, but we are stuck with it because of the big bear requirement.

The only way to match the 375 H&H and its proven ability to anchor DG with a smaller caliber is to go with a 338 RUM and live with the ammo availability problem as well as the lack of positive extration in current factory offerings. However, the RUM does get you to a flat shooting rifle suitable for very long shots in the west.

Here is my answer to the long range big game rifle question.....

Browning Abolt II in 338 RUM, burris euro blackdiamond 3-12x50 ballistic plex, 225gr Nosler Accubond @ 3150fps. Weighs in right at 8 1/2 pounds. Its a little long for dragging around in the brush, but you could live with it. Thank god I can have and use as many guns as I want. I couldn't handle only having one gun for all my big game needs. I like variety too much.

I have no idea why anyone tries to hunt everything with one gun. My opinion is that you probably need at least 2 guns for the best results in what you want to do, and neither is what you are considering. That said, I'm sure you can get it all done with any 7 mag. Neither caliber you mentioned offers any real world advantage over the other. Pick one.

Personally, I like the 30-06 for an all-around rifle. The 7 mags are very inefficiebt cartridges that shoot best in rifles heavier than needed for 95% of the hunting you will ever do in NA. If you are set on a 7 mag get it and practice putting bullets where they need to be under field conditions. A good brown bear guide will get you in a position where you can use a 7 mag and will also know what to do if the bear doesn't drop at your shot.

7 mm diameter is not the best alternative to deal with bears ... surely they will kill them, but you have to consider every hunting situation that might arise ...

My choices will be either 338 WM or 375 H&H (my own favorite is the latter)

Sorry to be ANOTHER person to have to tell you this but.....

If you must use a 7mm (of any chambering) You will be ok and i stress only ok with most big game untill you hit brown bears, in which case you will quickly and surely be turned into bear poop.

Schmaus

300 Winchester Magnum!! Available everywhere! 200 gr partition loads for the big stuff and 180's or 165's for everything else. Personally, I like larger calibers for the large animals, and smaller calibers for the deer sized critters, but the 300 wm seems to work for everything just fine!

Everything from the 06 up would be fine. But I were having a rifle built to do it all with ease it would be a 35whelan ackley imp or a 35 gibbs. The 225 sierra and 250 swifts are all the bullets you need. 35s are cool!

338 Win Mag with 200 or 210 gr bullets for open country, and 250 or 275 gr for close work on Big Bears.