I haven't hunted Alaska, but my Central Canada Barren Ground Caribou was shot at about 150 - 175 yards, and my Woodland in Newfoundland at maybe 200, and my Newfie Moose at about 40. I think any 45-70 I have owned would have taken any of them out. JMO

Crazyhorse
Don't you know that on this fourm a 45-70 bounces off any thing larger that a squirrel.

Dr B

Dr. B

I am very fond of the 7mm I own one that is an absolute tack driver and its lightweight. 7 1/2 lbs scoped its a great sheep and deer rifle and I have even killed moose with it. But the 7mm is not an everything in NA rifle. The bears will remove the 7mm from being practical very quickly. Can a 7mm kill a griz out at 100+ yards , sure, know a guy that has killed 2 interior griz with one. However if you are hunting the larger coastal blacks where they feed on the beaches on the fringe of the deepest darkest nastiest rainforest you have ever seen the 7mm will not put them down fast enough to keep them from getting into the jungle. On the flip side have I seen the size of the larger coastal brownies, went to the Peninsula this spring, I guarantee you with or without a guide the 7mm is not going to be what you want in your hands in the heat of the moment with the big Browns. The 7mm is a great long range flat shooter, but its not a .30 cal and that would be my minimum for everything in NA. I love the 300 WM as it can do everything from Antelope with 130's to Brown bear with 220's it can do it all. 338 WM would be just a step up from that.

As I indicated in my original post, if you can afford to hunt ALL NA game, you can afford at least 2 rifles.
A 300 Mag and a 375 H&H will do it all.
Throw in a 400 plus double and you have Africa covered.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
As I indicated in my original post, if you can afford to hunt ALL NA game, you can afford at least 2 rifles.
A 300 Mag and a 375 H&H will do it all.
Throw in a 400 plus double and you have Africa covered.

Or:
.270
.338WM
.416

Ray/ NE 450
Cost isn't what I made the post about. I allready own more guns than I can shoot.
The point was that I wanted a go to gun that I would become familure with that I would not have to think about where the saftey was that the triger pull woudn't be a suprise tha I was usted to the fit and drop.
I own several dozen shotguns but I have a Citori that I have done 98% of my Shotgun shooting with for the past 25 yr. It's totaly natural.
That is what I'm looking for in a rifle thus the one gun idea, maby I need a matched pair instead of one gun.
Dr B

I would think that, unlike Africa, hunts in NA are a single species endeavour. Thus, you can have two very similar rifles, but in different calibers. You can pick the same model rifle, the same stock design, same scope, same trigger pull, same sling, etc. Most people don't combine a coastal BB with anything else, and if you do, go with the bigger caliber.

I've chosen the Model 70 Win, one in .375 H&H and one in 30-06, both in SS/synthetic. I plan on the 30-06 being my main carry rifle, it's going to relatively lightweight, and it'll serve for most anything up to elk. The .375 H&H is going to be my bear/Cape Buff/DG rifle. I may never do Brownie hunt, but I'm planning on doing a coastal Alaskan blk bear hunt in the not too distant future.

When finally completed, both of these will have the same safetly, similar trigger pull, similar scopes - 2.5x8x36 for the '06 and 1.75x6x32 for the H&H, same mounting systems, same slings, but probably different stocks - the .375 has a Echols' Legend McMillan and the '06 will eventually have a McMillan Edge for lighter weight.

I've got a ammo can full of mil-surp '06 ammo that'll do for mucho practice. One thing about this combo is that with the different in weight the felt recoil does not that much different - at least from field positions.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Ray/ NE 450
Cost isn't what I made the post about. I allready own more guns than I can shoot.
The point was that I wanted a go to gun that I would become familure with that I would not have to think about where the saftey was that the triger pull woudn't be a suprise tha I was usted to the fit and drop.
I own several dozen shotguns but I have a Citori that I have done 98% of my Shotgun shooting with for the past 25 yr. It's totaly natural.
That is what I'm looking for in a rifle thus the one gun idea, maby I need a matched pair instead of one gun.
Dr B

I apologize for adding to the confusion, and I hope I can be of help with the following. I must tell you that I am one-gun hunter in Alaska, and use a .338WM for all my hunting. I started hunting late in life, and before I bought the .338WM rifle, I asked questions for days relating to which cartridges were the most popular in Alaska. The answers were as follows:

.30-06
.300WM
.338WM

So I chose one of the three most popular cartridges in Alaska. However, since most folks I asked preferred the .338WM when bears came into the picture, I bought a rifle of this chambering, and never looked back.

The .375 H&H, even though it could very well be an "all around" cartridge in Alaska, is not as popular as the three mentioned above, perhaps because the average .375 H&H rifle is a little too heavy for carrying around.


If you look at the answers to this poll, you will notice that the decision I made in the early '90's still holds true (not all of those polled live in Alaska, but most are):
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/showthread.php?t=240

If I lived and worked in the bear bush in AK I'd carry a tanker modified M1 Garand and keep a few rounds of ball ammo available for any ornery big brown critters.I remember reading an article recently about a Griffin and Howe custom 30-06 rifle probably using a 1903 Springfield receiver that was used to take every big game animal on the N. American continent in 1924.If the 06 did it then it can do it again,practice makes perfect.

quote:

The 338 win mag is fine for Deer out to 500 yards,elk 400 yards,moose about 300 yards,and big bears as long as they are at leasy 25 yards away.

This is pretty funny a 338 is mearly a 500 yard deer rifle... Somebody better go wake up all those elk that have eat'n dirt with a lowely little 7mags, 30-06's and 270's that were killed quite handily in the 300-400 yard range. whith what appears to be 'gopher guns'. LOL

I think the absolute perfect NA rig would be a SS Winchester or similar chambered in 338WM. There is nothing running around here minus the odd bear that would be a 1 in a 10000 chance that you'd need anyting bigger to stop him anyway... that it couldn't handle and handle well. If you need a 'wet dream stopper' you're likely going to be toast no mater what your're packing.

You can find ammo just about everywhere for the guys that worry themselves to death that their luggage gets lost but their rifle makes it... really what are the odds of that happeing anyway...

While I've not killed as many big critters as a lot of you guys, I've put a fair number of elk, deer and other big game animals on the ground just fine. 99% of the 200-250+ kills I've wintessed have been inside 350 yards, most were inside 200. I think long range rifles are over rated... not to mention the recoil involved. I'd bet that 90% of the time its not even an issue to get with in 200-250 yards of an animal.

BTW some of the rounds you guys mention would be the same price for a 100 rounds as the damn rifle costs... How practical is that?

375 H+H,without a doubt.

My choice would be a 325wsm Factory ammo comes 180 200 220 grains.The power level is slightly under a 338.It comes in lighter rifles and recoils less.I used this cartridge in Africa(not on dg)
and it made short work on Black wildebeast and other plains game.I would not feel under gunned
any where in North America Dave

A good friend on Kodiak shot the #3 record book Kodiak Brown in the road system about two years ago. He put 6 or 8 .338 win mag rounds in it. All good hits. When they got done his partner who was carrying a 30-06 made one clear statment Quote "I have got to get a bigger gun"

A 30-06 will kill it nodoubt but if things go bad you need energy! and bullet mass! which = Momentum. Through the velocity and foot pounds thing out the window. There is more to killing power than those two equations alone.

a .375 cal would be my one gun choice.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Lottfan:
A good friend on Kodiak shot the #3 record book Kodiak Brown in the road system about two years ago. He put 6 or 8 .338 win mag rounds in it. All good hits.

another example of how the bigger bears take more killing shots from the bigger rifles. use enough gun with heavy fro caliber premium bullets.

congrats to your friend.

I was at the range to day working loads for my .458 Lott and met a guy that said he shot a coastal grizz in Alaska last fall. The bear circled back on him and the PH. When they saw the bear it was closing fairly fast from behind. He shot it center in the chest at 14 yards with a Kimber chambered in .325 WSM. He said the bear barrly stumbled. The PH turned the bear with a .458 Lott and the hunter put a second shot in the bears neck and droped it. He is going after bear again this year in Alask with a shiny new .416 Rigby. He said the .325 WSM was just not enough gun. His bear squared just over 9 feet with a 25 and 7/16 inch skull.

Live by others mistakes It tends to be less painfull.

Semper Fi

Dr.B, I would really love to see one of those ironclad squirrels you are talking about. Sure as hell must be tougher than a Buffalo, if the slug from a 45/70 bounces off.

I just noticed this baby was still alive so I thought I would throw a second 2 cents into the ring. Phil Shoemaker is without question the most experienced contributor to this issue and from all I hear a great guide. I'm sure Phil will tell you that only rarely does the client accompany him on follow up work. He does the "dirty work" alone. I have always felt when hunting dangerous game with a PH or guide I had a responsibility to use a proper caliber and be proficient with it. To me that means using a 338 or more for bears. If the client had to go into an alder thicket alone after a wounded bear with a 7MM, I'm sure there would be some major league butt puckering going on! IMHO if you choose to hunt dangerous game be properly prepared!

Doc: I have a couple 7mm Mags, and while I would take on a bear with one, I'd sure want a backup gun at least 45 cal. Lots better all around rounds, even though I love the 7mms. Minimum - 300 mag, any version. Great aa caliber. Next 338 WM - 340 Weatherby class. My personal favorite, and I don't love pain - 375 HH. Load it with 210 grain Barnes for little guys, 300 Noslers for big guys. In spite of what you might think, it is not that uncomfortable to shoot, even in a carriable rifle. If I had to STOP a bear, the 375 would be mins.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
Hi
My brother and I want one gun for North America. Texas to Alaska. Including Brown Bears. We have narrowed it down to 7mm RUM vs 7mm STW. What are your thoughts, ofcourse they will be built on a ss rem 700 action (w/ Sako extractor) with a Rimrock syn stock.
Dr B

the age old discussion of one gun for all n.a. the 7mm would be a poor choice for everything ak. personally, i would rather have a .30-06.

I love the 7mm Remington Magnum, it's a wonderful round for North American big game animals. But not all of them. I would never choose a 7mm as my primary for big Browns, I would reach for at least a .30-06 every time. The '06 with 200gr. pills will go deep and hard into anything at sensible ranges. And brown bears are usually not taken at long ranges anyways, so I stand by that decision. Anything from there up works. .30 cal Magnums, also packing 200gr. bullets, are a solid choice and offer more versatility and range. The 8mm Remington Magnum is a gem in this area, too, especially with 220gr. bullets. The tried and true .338 WM is another safe bet, and the .338-06 is likewise an effective gametaker. None of these rounds are "difficult" to shoot, they all offer great ballistics and will do the job.

If you can handle more "pop" like a .340 Weatherby, a .358 STA, or a .375 RUM, then go for it. They all offer great trajectory, and despite popular belief, you can actually still kill deer with them quite well without blowing them to smithereens.

But seriously, leave those 7mm's for sniping deer at rediculous ranges. Pick up a gun which might give up a little range. Let the fat, heavy bullet do the hard part for you.

7mm STW
7mm RUM
300 Win
300 Wby
300 RUM
8mm Rem
325 WSM
338 Win
338 RUM
340 Wby
350 Rem
358 STA
9.3x62
375 H&H
375 Wby

Any and all (with the right bullet) would put any NA game's dick in the dirt that you wished. The 7-STW & 7mm RUM are smallish on bullet dia. but, I think, probably make up for some of that by sheer horsepower. Anything above the 375's ain't gonna get you the most enjoyment out of a deer hunt. Were I forced to choose one, I'd probably pick the 340 Wby. as a sensible all-around player.

Well I really like the 7mm. My "go to" rifle is a Remington model 7 in 7mmRSAUM. I shoot 160 grain partitions in it, and top it with a Leupold 3.5 X 10. I have used it without compromise for mule deer, bighorn sheep, elk, and black bear. I have never recovered a bullet, all pass throughs. Although it wouldn't be my first choice to tackle brown bears, history tells us that it is up to it.

325 WSM ???

I think you could do a lot worse than the 300 win mag in an accurate rifle shooting 168-180gr barnes or 180 noslser accubond or partitions for any north american game.

I'd just go with my .411/.416RemMag. It gives me the flexibility to shoot 400gr. BG bullets on down to pistol bullets for small game. This is the rifle I could live with if I could just have one.

Well while I would have not picked a 7mm Ultra or STW. I have being shooting an old friend of late. An old Remington 700 in 7mm Remington Mag. While its more for some and a little light for a couple of North America's big game, it would do and do it just fine, heck when its all said an done as Phil says make it an .30-06 and some good bullets. Its really all about the bullet more than anything else.

Having no experience with Grizzly type bears, I can't comment on them. I agree the '06 would be hard to beat for the things I've used it on, mostly elk, but I like more reach and believe I would prefer a bit more authority on beasties that could turn nasty. To that end, I will propose the .358 STA. I recieved mine a couple weeks ago, and initial 3-shot groups fired during barrel break-in are about 1 moa. Load development will hopefully improve that. 270 gr. Northforks traveling at somewhere over 2800 fps should dispatch any and all large antlered or toothy critters with authority. No deader than my old '06, but perhaps faster.

.338 Win. Mag., .340 Weatherby, or .375 H&H.

376 Styer would be my starting minimum. 375 H&H would be better since you are talking about big toothed bears.

I found this interesting piece on the Alaska Game and Fish Site.

http://www.wc.adfg.state.ak.us/index.cfm?adfg=huntalaska.firearms

"Because of the presence of brown and grizzly bears, many hunters have been convinced that a .300, .338, .375, or .416 magnum is needed for personal protection and to take large Alaskan game. This is simply not true. The recoil and noise of these large cartridges is unpleasant at best and plainly painful to many shooters. It is very difficult to concentrate on shot placement when your brain and body remembers the unpleasant recoil and noise which occurs when you pull the trigger on one of the big magnums.

The two most common complaints of professional Alaskan guides are hunters who are not in good physical condition and hunters who cannot accurately shoot their rifles. Because they do not practice enough they cannot shoot accurately enough. They miss their best chance at taking their dream animal or worse yet, they wound and lose an animal. Most experienced guides prefer the hunter come to camp with a .270 or .30-06 rifle they can shoot well rather than a shiny new magnum that has been fired just enough to get sighted-in. If you are going to hunt brown bear on the Alaska Peninsula or Kodiak Island, a .30-06 loaded with 200 or 220 grain Nosler® or similar premium bullet will do the job with good shot placement. Only consider using a .300, .338 or larger magnum if you can shoot it as well as you can the .30-06."

A hunter could take a Custom razzed up titanium stainless fiberglass jewelled diamond built in johnson pump rifle in a huge caliber for which no cartridges are available and that he can't really shoot all that well (off-hand, prone, kneeling, etc.), mount a $2000 dollar illuminated, range finding, neck craning, monster objective riflescope on it and be assured that he will kill bears better and be a better bear hunter.

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
A customer of my gunsmith was having redfield scope problems(3rd time "repaired") on a pre 64 mod 70 Win 375 H&H so I took him to our range to check it out the scope ,it was faulty so he took his Pre 64 Mod 70 Win 300wm to AK for his Brownie hunt and shot a record.

When you say record, do you mean B&C world record, or a bear that made the all time book, or the awards? Or are you referring to a record in a lesser scoring system?

There is one flaw in the argument about the folks that don't shoot 338's, 375's and 416's well, and that flaw is the assumption that they will do better with a 270, 7 mag or 30-06. I have yet to see any data that indicates that those folks shoot better with milder cartridges.

When someone with a small bore wounds an animal, the advice is, he didn't have enough power, get a bigger gun. When next year he wounds the same game with a bigger gun, the advise is use a smaller gun that is shot more accurately.

All along the entire issue is proper shot placement.

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt all NA game with a 270, 7 mag or 30-06, if that was all I had at my desposal. I would realize that there would be a few shots I'd have to pass on, and there would be a few rare intances where things didn't work out as planned, and I'd have been better off with a 338.

Shoot the biggest gun you shoot well, and shoot it well. Realize the bigger guns do need some heft to be shootable, and such hefty guns aren't always much fun in the field. Asside from that, it just comes down to knowing the anatomy of the game you hunt, knowing the terminal performance of the bullet you are using, and steering the bullet into the anatomy at ranges your gun can be effectively employed.

Really quite simple when we detach ourselves from the emotions we attach to our favorite chamberings and guns.

quote:

Originally posted by Whiteeyetattoo:

quote:

Originally posted by scr83jp:
A customer of my gunsmith was having redfield scope problems(3rd time "repaired") on a pre 64 mod 70 Win 375 H&H so I took him to our range to check it out the scope ,it was faulty so he took his Pre 64 Mod 70 Win 300wm to AK for his Brownie hunt and shot a record.

When you say record, do you mean B&C world record, or a bear that made the all time book, or the awards? Or are you referring to a record in a lesser scoring system?

A record for the hunter it was his largest at that time.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
There is one flaw in the argument about the folks that don't shoot 338's, 375's and 416's well, and that flaw is the assumption that they will do better with a 270, 7 mag or 30-06. I have yet to see any data that indicates that those folks shoot better with milder cartridges.

When someone with a small bore wounds an animal, the advice is, he didn't have enough power, get a bigger gun. When next year he wounds the same game with a bigger gun, the advise is use a smaller gun that is shot more accurately.

All along the entire issue is proper shot placement.

I wouldn't hesitate to hunt all NA game with a 270, 7 mag or 30-06, if that was all I had at my desposal. I would realize that there would be a few shots I'd have to pass on, and there would be a few rare intances where things didn't work out as planned, and I'd have been better off with a 338.

Shoot the biggest gun you shoot well, and shoot it well. Realize the bigger guns do need some heft to be shootable, and such hefty guns aren't always much fun in the field. Asside from that, it just comes down to knowing the anatomy of the game you hunt, knowing the terminal performance of the bullet you are using, and steering the bullet into the anatomy at ranges your gun can be effectively employed.

Really quite simple when we detach ourselves from the emotions we attach to our favorite chamberings and guns.

I fired a 375 H&H from the bench checking out a scope then went to Raahauges Shooting Sports Fair and was offered a 375 by a Sako rep I rapidly declined that is until he explained they had one with a KDF muzzle brake what a difference like shooting an 06. A similar muzzle brake can be obtained from http://www.probed2000.com I had one added to an encore 15" 06 pistol barrel tamed it down.

I hate muzzlebrakes!!! It is hard to sit and watch a bear through my binos to spot shot placement while my hunter shoots, while at the same time plug my ears to prevent permanent ear damage......(or run backwards 10 yards prior to the shot).

Even if we cover our ears, on some horseback hunts situations the poor dumb 4 footed friends get their ears assaulted far worse than normal.

Honestly, I know they do make things easier to shoot, but I think they should be left at home for range work. I also am beginning to think we have created a generation of shooters who read too much about how bad cartridges kick and are a bit psychologically damaged by it.

My little 5'3" wife shoots a .338 all the time, yet I guide big strapping gentlemen every year who can't hardly handle a .300 Mag. She does however draw the line at my .375 with max. loads with a 300 grain bullet and says it is not fun to shoot.

I have a question about the pictures above why is the scope base at least it seems to me to be a base for a short action rifle it only uses one screw in the rear to hold it down . my friend has the same base on his rem 700 in 338 RUM I myself always use both are the rum actions longer?

WHEN picking a gun where a LARGE bear may be involved, remember... and this would apply to ALL DG...
the closer the bear, the smaller the rifle gets.

Make sure when you order that 7mm that it doesn't have sights. That way it won't hurt as bad when that bear shoves it up you ass!

quote:

Originally posted by Skyline:
I hate muzzlebrakes!!! It is hard to sit and watch a bear through my binos to spot shot placement while my hunter shoots, while at the same time plug my ears to prevent permanent ear damage......(or run backwards 10 yards prior to the shot).

Even if we cover our ears, on some horseback hunts situations the poor dumb 4 footed friends get their ears assaulted far worse than normal.

Honestly, I know they do make things easier to shoot, but I think they should be left at home for range work. I also am beginning to think we have created a generation of shooters who read too much about how bad cartridges kick and are a bit psychologically damaged by it.

My little 5'3" wife shoots a .338 all the time, yet I guide big strapping gentlemen every year who can't hardly handle a .300 Mag. She does however draw the line at my .375 with max. loads with a 300 grain bullet and says it is not fun to shoot.

Skyline,

I imagine that most guides hate muzzle brakes on their client's rifles, but a muzzle break helps the client become more accurate with big guns that produce lots of recoil. What i would do if i was a guide was to carry a set of electronic ear muffs, and extra batteries for it (just in case). Electronic muffs such as the Peltor tactical 6S and others amplify ambient sounds, so you can talk and listen to your client just before he or she takes a shot, and instantly block sounds over 85 decibels.

Since most electronic ear muffs are not water-proof, I would carry it in my pocket when raining, and wear it when needed. Also, you should only turn it ON when needed to save battery power.
------

I have a KDF muzzle brake on my .338WM, and have gotten quite good at shooting this rifle, perhaps because I can shoot it often from 100 to 300 yards or so. I sight the rifle at 100 yards, and then shoot odd things (water bottles, paper plates, etc.) for fun up to 300 yards, with not pain on my shoulder whatsoever on the following day.

Now, shooting a rifle that has a muzzle brake around horses and other animals is a bad idea.

This is kinda a fun subject. AS I see from the replies more then afew of you feel the same. The thing that is kinda funny about our deer camp in Pa. is that even though we each own many different rifles we always bring the same rifle back to camp with us year in, and year out. Oh, every now, and again we may try something new or different. However, old reliable doen't miss too many hunts! I have been Blessed to have hunted much of North America. This includes Kodiak bear, as well as Dangerous game in Africa (though my expirience is limited there). I have also owned many fine rifles over the years. So, if I could only pick one rifle to carry on with the choice would not be difficult. Old reliable would be the gun. Old reliable is a 1955 vintage Model 70 Featherwieght feturing a high cimb stock. Topped of with a 2x7 Leupold scope it is a joy to own. When we get visiting hunters in camp this gun seems to draw alot of attention. What caliber is Old Reliable? Why it is a .30 Gov't06 of course! God Bless you Phil Shoemaker!