quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Right now, this minute, we have already tested a barrel that is almost 1/2 the wall thickness of most all standard double rifle barrels, and no OSR, no barrel expansion, no nothing. What we do from this point forward is just seeing how thin you can go before blowing the damned thing off, not much more than that. There are no barrels available as thin as what we have already tested.

If there was such a thing as OSR observed anywhere in past history, I contend it has shit to do with the bullet, and everything to do with a sorry ass made barrel that might have been soft, might have not been made proper, or came that way from the factory to begin with. Things happen, I had a .474 barrel that did not engrave .474 caliber bullets. I have two .477 caliber barrels on rifles that are supposed to be .474. Don't tell me that you can't get a fluke barrel from time to time. I am also beginning to think that I am very jinxed when it comes to .474!
Michael

One thing to consider is that the report said that it was visable, (on a blued barrel) and not measureable IIRC.
Since you're using a machine finishe tube and not polished or blued there may be a difference.

I don't see what bluing would have to do with OSR. Bluing salts don't change temper of barrel as temps are less than 375 degrees. Sure when a gun is blued the bore is blued too but a few shots and it is slick inside. I did polish the outside of barrel after turning it down so we could see rifling popping out.

I was thinking, (scarey huh? ) that the blueing would help to see it. Strickly optical nothing to do with the salts or heat.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Right now, this minute, we have already tested a barrel that is almost 1/2 the wall thickness of most all standard double rifle barrels, and no OSR, no barrel expansion, no nothing. What we do from this point forward is just seeing how thin you can go before blowing the damned thing off, not much more than that. There are no barrels available as thin as what we have already tested.

If there was such a thing as OSR observed anywhere in past history, I contend it has shit to do with the bullet, and everything to do with a sorry ass made barrel that might have been soft, might have not been made proper, or came that way from the factory to begin with. Things happen, I had a .474 barrel that did not engrave .474 caliber bullets. I have two .477 caliber barrels on rifles that are supposed to be .474. Don't tell me that you can't get a fluke barrel from time to time. I am also beginning to think that I am very jinxed when it comes to .474!
Michael

One thing to consider is that the report said that it was visable, (on a blued barrel) and not measureable IIRC.
Since you're using a machine finishe tube and not polished or blued there may be a difference.

Really? I mean REALLY??? First it's that there is a thin line of solder down the length of the barrel that makes it susceptible to pushing the rifling to the outside (as evidenced that no one complains about the risk of OSR in anything other than a double rifle). Now it's blueing??!!! YGBSM!!

Let me see. Oh yeah, here it is again:



Sorry Mike. Nothing personal. Just having a bit of fun ya know!

Fun? I'm all for that.
But go dig up that old necro thread and go thru it for facts and details. The solder wasn't the cause from what I remember. Try contacting the ones that saw this. I didn't see it I just read it.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Fun? I'm all for that.
But go dig up that old necro thread and go thru it for facts and details. The solder wasn't the cause from what I remember. Try contacting the ones that saw this. I didn't I just read it.

Mike,

I'm a non OSR believer as you can tell. Until someone can explain in a logical, scientific manner, how a bullet that is softer than the cold steel barrel it is being driven down can cause rifling to appear on the outside of the barrel without bursting the barrel from excessive pressure first, I'll remain dubious! And yes, I've read and responded to many of those old OSR threads.

If you dig up some of my old posts, you'll see that I reported having a Ruger M-77 in 338WM back in the early 1980's that had a candy cane appearance down along the barrel when held just right to the light. Trouble is, it was that way straight out of the box before any bullet was fired down it. It certainly didn't get that way because of a monometal bullet being fired down the tube as I don't remember any monometal bullets to be in existence at the time. At least to my knowledge. But again, it came that way from the factory. I always attributed it to the technique used by Ruger to hammer forge the barrel.

Another salient point however is that that Ruger rifle was a tack driver. Whatever the reason for that very faint striping down the barrel that could only be seen under perfect light conditions, didn't affect the way it performed in any way shape or form.

Still Mike, just was poking a bit of fun as I've done repeatedly on the OSR subject. There is NO logical rational for it. The barrel would surely split long before poking the rifling to the outside. I'm about to take delivery of my 4th double rifle. With the exception of 7 A-Square lion loads fired in my Merkel 500NE, I've shot nothing but Barnes TSX, BBS, or CEB Non-Cons, and BBW#13's in all of those rifles. I'm not a one box a year shooter either. I shoot them on a regular basis. I don't know how many, but it is in the 500's of rounds with the 500NE and 9.3 Chapuis (with the thin little barrels BTW), and probably a couple of hundred rounds in the 577NE. The Barnes bullets were some of the original suspects. Of course that was supposed to be the old style X and solid but I've been beat about the head and shoulders several times on this forum for shooting the TSX bullets in my doubles as well.

What is really interesting is all of the old opinions on what is or isn't safe to shoot in a double rifle. Most, if not all of that has been disproven with Michael and Sam's research. Some still cling to the old wives tales instead of believing the data they developed. Personally, I like evidence. Just haven't seen any evidence of OSR, and thinking about it logically, I just can't see how it can occur. Think about what a blacksmith must go through to work a piece of metal. Heat it up and pound it and even then the shape takes repeated applications of same. To think that a relatively soft bullet can cause an exact and precise imprint (or outprint) on the outside of a cold piece of steel without first splitting the barrel, just doesn't seem reasonable to me.

But that just my opinion and worth what you paid for it. But, my grandmother told me as a little kid, of her encounter with bigfoot one time. Haven't found evidence of him at the old place either. Notwithstanding that trail camera picture!

And my point is that if people with sterling reputations say that they have seen it then there's a very good chance that it happened.

Are you calling your granny a liar just because you haven't seen it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
And my point is that if people with sterling reputations say that they have seen it then there's a very good chance that it happened.

Oh I don't doubt that they completely believe what they are reporting. But how many times did and do guys with sterling reputations even today state that the Woodleigh FMG and Hornady DGS bullets are easier on your double rifle barrels than a brass solid such as the CEB's or even the copper North Fork bullets. I'm sure they believe that to be the case but the evidence Michael and Sam produces indicates otherwise.

BTW, this little experiment on OSR they are conducting also indicates otherwise concerning OSR. There were many men of sterling reputations that once believed the earth was flat! Just saying ya know!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:

Are you calling your granny a liar just because you haven't seen it?

Naw man. I jest said, Bless her little heart!

I'd rather err on the side of caution and stay away from the old Barnes mono's that supposedly caused this "problem".

Something tells me this whole OSR thing is something invented by Shootaway! Now tell me that ain't !!!

Except I 'qualified' my statements by saying "Sterling Reputation". That won't happen with your example!

Todd you have brought up an interesting point. You say you had a rifle with a candy stripe down the barrel on the outside. This could have very easily been caused when a turned barrel was button rifled after being contoured or it might possibly show up even if turned down after being button rifled. A button is basicly a carbide bullet pulled down a smooth bore to produce rifling in the barrel. This may be where the OSR myth has started. Stress on steel causes different hardness where it is work hardened. Perhaps when a barrel is button rifled the bumps from the rifling being formed are a different hardness or grain structure and can cause a discoloration in the steel when blued. I think this may be very possible as I have seen color differences in blued metal that had different hardness in the same piece of metal. Say where a place was welded or near where a sight was soldered on. If a barrel wasn't stress relieved after rifling you might actually get the appearence of OSR but it is really just a result of how the barrel was made.

Sam

From my understanding softs push out on the barrel and this might have something to do with the candy cane barrel. That and solids with too much bearing surface.

quote:

I reported having a Ruger M-77 in 338WM back in the early 1980's that had a candy cane appearance down along the barrel when held just right to the light. Trouble is, it was that way straight out of the box before any bullet was fired down it.

This would have been during the era Ruger purchased their barrels from numerous makers...

This does remind me though of some of the pictures of early hammer forged barrels from Europe. Looked like a rope candy if they didn't contour the barrels after the hammer forging; even when they did you could see the candy cane twist effect down the length of the barrel.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Except I 'qualified' my statements by saying "Sterling Reputation". That won't happen with your example!

No doubt!! Cheers mate.

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd you have brought up an interesting point. You say you had a rifle with a candy stripe down the barrel on the outside. This could have very easily been caused when a turned barrel was button rifled after being contoured or it might possibly show up even if turned down after being button rifled. A button is basicly a carbide bullet pulled down a smooth bore to produce rifling in the barrel. This may be where the OSR myth has started. Stress on steel causes different hardness where it is work hardened. Perhaps when a barrel is button rifled the bumps from the rifling being formed are a different hardness or grain structure and can cause a discoloration in the steel when blued. I think this may be very possible as I have seen color differences in blued metal that had different hardness in the same piece of metal. Say where a place was welded or near where a sight was soldered on. If a barrel wasn't stress relieved after rifling you might actually get the appearence of OSR but it is really just a result of how the barrel was made.

Sam

Sam,

You had mentioned the button rifling briefly before. Thanks for the explanation as I was unfamiliar with the term and process. From your description, I would assume the barrel is buttoned while hot and the steel is pliable?

Again, thanks for all the tests you and Michael have gone through. Must be fun to have two mad scientists living close enough to each other to keep the laboratory from developing cob webs!!

Todd, Nope the button is pulled through cold as far as I know.

OSR.......................



More details tomorrow....................................

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OSR.......................



More details tomorrow....................................

Michael

Tease! Inquiring minds want to know what you found!! You can borrow that Sasquatch trail camera picture if you want!

OSR Humm!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
OSR.......................



More details tomorrow....................................

Michael

Tease! Inquiring minds want to know what you found!! You can borrow that Sasquatch trail camera picture if you want!

I think, that we stand a FAR FAR better chance of Finding Sasquatch than we do this thing called "OSR".............

Details and measurements coming............

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:


I think, that we stand a FAR FAR better chance of Finding Sasquatch than we do this thing called "OSR".............


Michael

That's been my position all along! I'm very interested to see what you and Sam put together.

OSR is a Myth!

Well, there you go, I said it, and will probably suffer the ill will of many ole timers that think there is such a thing. Sorry..... My opinion, based thus far on the study Sam and I have been conducting, doing our best to create OSR, doing our best to blow the end of the barrel off the rifle, but would have to be done by what is said to cause OSR...... A Hard Bullet. I can't see how it is possible for BRASS or COPPER to PUSH STEEL.......... Only Steel can Push Steel. A softer metal cannot push a harder metal.

Last test we conducted had a "Wall Thickness of .05675 inches, with a .458 caliber hole in the middle. We shot everything we could get our hands on in .458 caliber, measured every single round that went down the barrel.......... NO CHANGE found with ANY BULLET TESTED...........

Yesterday, 2/19/2013, we only tested 2 rds of each bullet, 6 different bullets, again measured after each and every round and found.......... NO CHANGE WITH ANY BULLET TESTED.....

Our Barrel Wall Thickness was .03735 inches. Common normal barrel wall thickness is .1000, the smallest Sam has ever seen or heard of in one old black powder gun I believe was .08000. There has never been a barrel made in any big bore caliber ever at .03735 inch wall thickness!!!!!!

And we still could not expand the barrel, cause OSR, nor could detect or measure any difference whatsoever with anything we could do, with a bullet going down the bore...............


I don't believe there is such a thing. I think what has been seen in the past is the rifling tech that Sam and Todd spoke about earlier, and nothing more than that.

Even though I still feel that some bullets are harder than others and cause higher pressures with same load the pushing of the rifling to the outside of the barrel is pure BS. A bullet is fully engraved by the rifling after it has passed the throat of a barrel. There may be more bearing surface on some bullets and it may take more prssure to do this engraving but after the bullet is engraved there is no way it can push rifling out to the outside of the barrel. Some people have said they have seen OSR and others say they have seen candy stripe effect on outside of barrels. Well where are as those guns now and where are photos of it. If anything the candy stripe might be caused by button rifling a barrel or hammer forging one but it ain't because a bullet pushed the rifling out. The only photo I've seen of a quote OSR barrel damage was a blown up barrel from a hard bullet. Now was it the hard bullet that caused the barrel to split. I don't think so. I think it was either the load or the type of filler used in the case that caused the problem. How thin can we go with this barrel to check OSR? Well if I thought it would happen I would keep turning it down. I might just for the heck of it but I think it is a waste of time and bullets. OSR is BS!!!!!!!

Sam

Ok, for the record (and my curiosity), who is the Sam Hell, actually believed this OSR bullshit? Come on, grow a pair and fess up (I'm too lazy to go back and read all the posts). jorge[FLASH_VIDEO] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=player_detailpage [/FLASH_VIDEO]

I believe softs are the problem that cause candy stripe barrels Sam. Softs continue to push out under the extreme pressure in the barrel where solids just go forward and bearing surface is the only variable. I could be wrong but that is what I think happens.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I believe softs are the problem that cause candy stripe barrels Sam. Softs continue to push out under the extreme pressure in the barrel where solids just go forward and bearing surface is the only variable. I could be wrong but that is what I think happens.

Hey Boomie, here's your sign:

OK Boom stick maybe I'll turn the barrel down another .010 to .020 and shoot some pure lead bullet thru it.

I am referring to the Minié ball affect or effect whatever. This affect or effect would be most measureable where pressure is highest and thickness is the lease and not so much at the tip.
The lead swells to create the seal. My theory is that thin jacketed bullets or soft lead and older thin barrels under constant pressure in the barrel push out along the whole path of te barrel. That times a few thousand could cause this. It's not so much the hardness of the metal but the outward force under pressure. Or is the blue of the barrel wearing off different

It is awesome to see a forum version of myth busters

BoomAway?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
OK Boom stick maybe I'll turn the barrel down another .010 to .020 and shoot some pure lead bullet thru it.

I have some BIG LEAD BULLETS................

Sam, I don't think anyone believes us on the 500 Nitro..... Not a Peep All Day?
LOL.....
Michael

Michael...Please no!
I don't want to wear the snow mobile helmet!!!
I am not stating my opinions as facts but a hypothesis that is not my own about an uncommon phenomena. The Minié ball thing is well documented though.
Thin copper jacketed soft lead is the most likely culprit here. Was this not more common in Damascus barrels?

quote:

Michael...Please no!
I don't want to wear the snow mobile helmet!!!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Ok, for the record (and my curiosity), who is the Sam Hell, actually believed this OSR bullshit? Come on, grow a pair and fess up (I'm too lazy to go back and read all the posts). jorge[FLASH_VIDEO] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=player_detailpage [/FLASH_VIDEO]

Graeme Wright does. He describes it in detail starting on page 225 of his book Shooting the British Double Rifle (3d Edition). So do all the British double rifle makers.

quote:

Graeme Wright does. He describes it in detail starting on page 225 of his book Shooting the British Double Rifle (3d Edition). So do all the British double rifle makers.

Could this have been caused by oversized copper coated steel jacketed bullets going down undersized barrels; e.g., the steel jacket being a larger diameter than the barrel's bore diameter?

Damn guys! I get off the computer for just a little while and come back and all of you are pickin' on someone. Todd, you're again.
You guys..............

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Ok, for the record (and my curiosity), who is the Sam Hell, actually believed this OSR bullshit? Come on, grow a pair and fess up (I'm too lazy to go back and read all the posts). jorge[FLASH_VIDEO] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...re=player_detailpage [/FLASH_VIDEO]

Graeme Wright does. He describes it in detail starting on page 225 of his book Shooting the British Double Rifle (3d Edition). So do all the British double rifle makers.

Yes Dave and all of them also believed monometal bullets cause more barrel strain than conventional bullets such as the Woodleigh FMJ. Michael and Sam put that wives tale to rest some time ago. Now, this wives tale is debunked as well.

But Dave, I'm willing to listen! Can you explain to me how a bullet, which is significantly softer than the steel barrel it is traveling down, can possibly cause the rifling inside said cold steel (read non-pliable) barrel, to transfer the rifling pattern to the outside of the barrel? Seriously, how much outward pressure would it take to cause this type of outprint (opposite of imprint). Do you for one second believe that the amount of pressure necessary to cause this rifling pattern to transfer to the outside of a piece of cold steel would be less than the amount of pressure necessary to cause the barrel to burst? Not to mention that the pressure caused by the bullet traveling down the barrel is not just pushing outward but would also have to be pushing a bulge DOWN the barrel at the same time. How would the effect of pushing this "bulge" down the barrel affect the supposedly "perfect" transfer of the rifling pattern to the outside of the barrel?

I'm sorry fellas, but if you think this OSR thing through critically, I just don't see how it can be possible. An overpressure of this type would have to burst the barrel before this could happen. Yea, I've seen a barrel with the candy striping. Had one. On a Ruger M-77 in 338WM before monometals hit the market. The barrel was that way before the first round was fired down it, post factory testing. There is simply NOTHING about soldering two barrels together that would cause this phenomenon to be reasonable. If that statement is true, then why would we never hear of the OSR threat to a bolt action or single shot rifle? For the life of me, I cannot make a logical argument that would make this plausible. Regardless of what GW said about it in his book!

Todd:

Don't kill the messenger.

Do you have the book? Chapter 13, Damage to Double Rifles is ten pages long. If you don't have the book, I'll do my best to try and tell you what Graeme's points are.