Jorge

No, tips are not supplied with the standard NonCons, they are an option. When the NEW Designs are completed in each caliber, then they will be well worth the extra, especially in the field on DG like buffalo, lion, leopard and what have you. These Noncons, LOVE VELOCITY--add that tip and feed them more velocity downrange. That's what I intend to do, even in my bolt guns in the future, 1st round in the chamber, NonCon with a tip!

But gotta wait on the NEW TIPS to be done!

Doc

Those Long Pointy tips are much better than any of the others as they are more fragile. However, they are not as good in terminals as the new tip is going to be. Having tested now in 9.3, .416, and .500 the new tips are kicking! Actually IMPROVING the terminals of the NonCons at all velocities and especially at low end velocity shear points. Play with the long ones, but go to the field with the new ones coming.


In the beginning I did not care much for the tips! After this weeks work, I want that new designed shorter tip with the hollow point in the end of it in every caliber I take to the field! Downrange terminal performance has been enhanced greatly. Bolt guns, we will just follow on with standard noncons or solids, but that first round up will have a new Talon HP Tip in it.

I have a lot of work left to do on this, but all the work done now in the 3 calibers and tips tested has been extremely positive. I am sold! When I return, I will continue the work, and hopefully Dan will have some other calibers done by then and we will investigate much further at that point.

Michael

OK Michael thanks. That extra 30 or so fps will bring the NONs to 2150-60 fps in my double. Let us know when the tipped ones are in stock and I'll order some of those as well. jorge

Michael,Sam and all, I recieved my order for the .470 noncons and solids from Cutting Edge Bullets and will start load development in my Chapuis double. I have had very good results using Reloader 15 with the Woodleigh softs and solids and the Hornaday DGX and DGS softs and solids. I am using the Kynoch foam wads and my question is for anyone using this powder, are you using the foam wads? With these longer bullets are the wads still necessary for good powder burn? For the softs, my load data is: Jaminson brass, Win LR mag primer, 87.5 grains of current lot# Reloader 15 using the Kynoch wad for 2150fps and good regulation. For the solids I'm using 85.0grains other data the same. I have several pounds of this lot # left for those bullets and 8 pounds of a new lot to work with the noncons and solids so I'll back down and work back up for these loads.

375ej,

I've mostly used IMR4831 at 106 grs in the 470 but RL-15 works. You do not need to reduce the load for CEB solids as the solid and non con are basicly the same bullet the non con is just a little lighter. You may even have to increase the load to get velocity up as the CEB will be lower pressure and velocity than a conventional cup and core bullet. If you can hear powder rattle in the case I would use a wad.

Sam

Thank's for the responce Sam. I just wanted to get in the ballpark before I started working up my loads. I've always used the foam wads so I'll keep using them (trimmed abit to allow for the extra length of the CEB's) for this load development. Had the Chapuis .470 out a few days ago after having my gunsmith inlet a very nice sling base on the butt (really did not want to screw in the sling stud provided on this fine rifle). Two screw base looks much better than a big wood screw! The "little beastie" is sure fun to shoot!

I posted this on the Terminal Bullet Performance thread but I wanted to post it here as well:

I have been trying to work up some baseline load data with my Chapuis 9,3X74R with both the 280 grain BBW#13s as well as the 286 grain North Fork Cup Points. In this gun I would normally shoot a Hornady case, Winchester large rifle magnum primer, 55.7 grains of Reloder 15, and a 286 grain Hornady bullet. That load normally runs about 2238 fps and regulates perfectly.

For the first go around with the North Forks and the BBW#13s, I simply dropped that load down to 53 grains of Reloder 15. They were running almost exactly the same. The North Fork Cup Points were running 2097 fps and the BBW#13s 2091 fps. In this particular gun, the North Forks seem to work a little better. The North Forks give you much more latitude in seating depth and because of the "truncated cone" you don't have to be concerned with the North Forks being seated into the lands.

I plan to bump the load up a grain and a half and let you know how it goes.

Well more testing men, but I think I have the Non-Cons dialed in. Four shots off the bags. This Verney's a JOY to shoot. Still working on the solids but it seems they prefer longer seating depth (to the next to last cannelure):



WWoodleighs and Hornadys also ROCK!:

Gents just tried the solids again only this time seating them out like Doc's picture. Rifle hated them that way so I'm sticking with seating them all the way into the last cannelure and crimping. jorge

Not so fast! I went out today with carefully loaded BBW solids seated with the last driving band exposed 3.95 OAL. Two shots at 25 and two at 50. I think I have a winner. MV 2135-2155. Even though I had good results with the Non-Coms seated deep, I'm going to try seating them long as well as that seems to be the conventional wisdom. I also used a Lee Factory Crimp die with a good crimp. Thoughts?

Been Swapping notes with Jorge this spring while he has been working up loads for his new rifle in 450ne. Finally got a warm enough day (mid 80's) here in Vermont to toss a few 480grn CEB solids down range through my Gibbs 450ne and her 28" barrels. Using 100grn of H4831 and Hornady brass,(which has been regulating very well with 480grn Woodleighs) I loaded 4 rounds just below the first band and after talking with Jorge loaded 4 rounds on top of the first band. The gun shot well with the longer bullets and chronied at a 4 shot average of 2145. The shorter bullets crossed and chronied at a 4 shot average of 2212. Interesting what a few thou deeper can do. Will run Non-Cons when the weather warms up again (it was 25*f this am).
Would have posted pics of targets but forgot my camera and besides who wants to compare themselves to Jorge and his fine marksmanship
Thanks to all for their comments in regards to loading the CEB bullets.

Seating bullet deeper is just like adding filler. Pressures go up as the powder burns better. When pressures go up velocity most of the time goes up but not always.

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Not so fast! I went out today with carefully loaded BBW solids seated with the last driving band exposed 3.95 OAL. Two shots at 25 and two at 50. I think I have a winner. MV 2135-2155. Even though I had good results with the Non-Coms seated deep, I'm going to try seating them long as well as that seems to be the conventional wisdom. I also used a Lee Factory Crimp die with a good crimp. Thoughts?

I think you should listen to your "doc" LOL

Whatever works!

To be honest, so far I've been extremely lucky in that all of my V-Cs have been very happy with anything I've fed them.

I was so impressed with seating them out longer Paul that I loaded up a batch of the Non-Cons seated longer as well, although the accuracy of them seated deeper was outstanding. I'll report back as soon as I shoot. jorge

I seat mine under the top band as well for my .500 NE.

A question on bullet weights pressures and velocities and equal powder charges.

Gents, a simple mathematical question, but since it involves doubles, that is a huge factor in my book. Ok so 100gr of H-4831 pushes a 480gr (450NE)@
Woodleigh: 2100
DGX: 2140
BBW Solid: 2150
All to POI, no pressure issues that I can see.

So what can we expect the velocity of of a 450gr bullet to be? (that's about 7% lighter). I'm getting excellent accuracy with the 450 Non-Cons with velocities right at 2203 consistently. From what I know, the extra 50 fps should not be a pressure issue. Thoughts?

Jorge

quote:

A question on bullet weights pressures and velocities and equal powder charges.

I'm getting excellent accuracy with the 450 Non-Cons with velocities right at 2203 consistently. From what I know, the extra 50 fps should not be a pressure issue. Thoughts?

Ok, you are getting 2203 fps with the matching 450 NonCon with equal powder charges with the 480 BBW#13 as I understand it. This is pretty good actually, as normally the 450 will only run 20-30 fps faster with the same powder charge in many 458 cartridges. The 450 is actually running LESS pressures with the same charge, in your cartridge from 3000-5000 PSI. Every pressure trace I have ever run with the Solid/NonCon combo this is common. Weight builds pressures, same charge, less weight, same bearing surface, same bullet length, LESS PRESSURE. This I guarantee.

In all my bolt guns I normally run the NonCon with a couple of extra grains to gain velocity, and in those POI does not change R/L--the faster NonCon prints slightly higher. Couple of grains with the NonCon normally equals the pressures of the Solid.

Michael

That's exactly what Doc said and what my thoughts were Michael. Pics of target to follow and incidentally, I found no variation in velocity regardless of seating depth (3.995 V 3.920) although w the Non-Con my rifle appears to like the shorter length. Simply marvelous jorge

Here you go. The reactive target were the NCs 450gr seated long (two in one hole from the right barrel):


And short:


And as mentioned no difference in velocity. All crimped with Lee Factory Crimp die.

Nice shooting Jorge.
I need to take some lessons from you!

CEB #13 Solid and Non-Con - accurate and deadly.
The perfect combination

Looks fantastic, where is the project now?

For you 500 Nitro guys, if you recall some time ago we tested LVSP (low velocity Shear Point) on the .510 NonCons, and I found the LVSP to be too high at 1800 fps. We decided to widen the cavity of the BBW#13 NonCon to get LVSP down to a lower velocity for shear of the blades. We did this on both the .500s and the .510 NonCons. It was a great success as you will see below. This is reported up on Terminals, but just wanted to make sure most of you 500 Nitro guys see it.




Also, this is a new bullet in .510 that Sam ordered up, another .510 matching pair, 510 Solid and 475 NonCon. He is trying this out in his 500 Nitro and will let us know how it does.







Michael

Good work getting the shear points down. I'll be taking them with this October!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Good work getting the shear points down. I'll be taking them with this October!

Todd

I was very very pleased with this LVSP. We needed that badly. Yes, I have been thinking in particular of you, and your trip this October! Well, your bullet is going to do a bang up job, and you need not worry about shear, it's gonna!

Might want to tell us a bit, on this thread, about the 255 9.3 and your bear--with your double! Or copy from your thread some. Good place to have that info here as well. For those that might miss your thread.

Michael

No problem Michael. And thanks for working on the 510 Non-Con!

For the 9.3, I recently shot a black bear with the 255gr Non-Con. I was using a 9.3X74R Chapuis UGEX double, firing the bullet at 2300fps. The shot was taken at 116 yards. The bullets were purchased prior to the development of the nose inserts so were used without them.

Observations of performance. The NC's worked exactly as reported elsewhere on this forum. The entrance wound was large enough to put my fist into. I only recovered 2 petals but they really did their work. The shot was a bit high into the shoulder but everything in the body cavity was soup. Liquified! Of note, the entrance and exit holes in the actual skin, were both 9.3. There was no huge blown out exit as is typical with the TSX Bullet. I assume this is because the exit is just like a solid.

My opinion is that the NC's worked as expected. Certainly a bullet I 'm going to stick with.

Entrance into the shoulder:



Entrance into the chest cavity after passing through the shoulder:



A couple of recovered petals:

I loaded up some of the new CEB .510 light weights for my 500 NEs today. My VC 500 did not like them much with the loads I chose. I started with 97 grains of RL-15 and then 98 grains and last 100 grs. I used both the 475 gr Non Con and 510 grain solids. LS stands for long seat and SS stands for short seat.


I then used same loads in my Sabbati 500 which liked them. I tried but seated deep and to the first groove. Not much difference in the two. I want to note that I used Tula large magnum primers in all loads and do not like these primers. I had a few slight hang fires which could be the cause of the one wide shot with the VC 500. All loads had 2 .062 Walters wads on top of powder to make it tight.



Sam

I forgot this last target is two Non Cons and two solids.

Michael, Here is a curve ball for you. After all that work you did on the LVSP in the .510, it looks like the 500NE will be staying home this October after all. I'll be taking the .577NE instead. Any idea what the LVSP is on the .585 Non-Cons!

Sam has already provided me with some good loads to work up to. Much appreciated Sam!

Todd

No man, the LVSP on the .510 was very important, not just for your trip coming, but to increase the effectiveness of the bullet, and we have done so. Also, making the change was needed in both .500 and .510 as well.

As for the .585 NonCon--don't know exactly, but I can tell you this with very high confidence, don't worry about it, it will shear at any reasonable range you might shoot it at. When I had Docs 600 OK here I took it down in the low 1400s and perfect shear, perfect performance in every way. I am very confident the .585 will do exactly the same. Hammer down without worry on that one.

Michael

When I get done picking blueberries maybe Michael and I can do a 577 new exploration with my new VC 577. I don't mind gluing gages to it.
We can do the LVSP then.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
When I get done picking blueberries maybe Michael and I can do a 577 new exploration with my new VC 577. I don't mind gluing gages to it.
We can do the LVSP then.

Oh for Joy! More "Double Trouble"-------

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Todd


As for the .585 NonCon--don't know exactly, but I can tell you this with very high confidence, don't worry about it, it will shear at any reasonable range you might shoot it at.

Michael

Actually Michael, of that, I have no doubt. Just offering a new branch of the knowledge tree to explore!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Todd


As for the .585 NonCon--don't know exactly, but I can tell you this with very high confidence, don't worry about it, it will shear at any reasonable range you might shoot it at.

Michael

Actually Michael, of that, I have no doubt. Just offering a new branch of the knowledge tree to explore!

Yes, and you had to get Sam started--now off we go, load data, barrel strains, regulation and and and and and---like I said;

More "Double Trouble"------- cuckoo




Oh well, someone has to do it I suppose! LOL......

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Todd


As for the .585 NonCon--don't know exactly, but I can tell you this with very high confidence, don't worry about it, it will shear at any reasonable range you might shoot it at.

Michael

Actually Michael, of that, I have no doubt. Just offering a new branch of the knowledge tree to explore!

Yes, and you had to get Sam started--now off we go, load data, barrel strains, regulation and and and and and---like I said;

More "Double Trouble"------- cuckoo




Oh well, someone has to do it I suppose! LOL......

I guess I'm going to have to start looking for some old cordite 577s and new factory ammo for tests. Man I know those will cost me! Hey its worth it to get the data.
I guess I should change my handle to Double Trouble but I think its taken.

quote:

For the 9.3, I recently shot a black bear with the 255gr Non-Con. I was using a 9.3X74R Chapuis UGEX double, firing the bullet at 2300fps. The shot was taken at 116 yards. The bullets were purchased prior to the development of the nose inserts so were used without them.

Observations of performance. The NC's worked exactly as reported elsewhere on this forum. The entrance wound was large enough to put my fist into. I only recovered 2 petals but they really did their work. The shot was a bit high into the shoulder but everything in the body cavity was soup. Liquified! Of note, the entrance and exit holes in the actual skin, were both 9.3. There was no huge blown out exit as is typical with the TSX Bullet. I assume this is because the exit is just like a solid.

My opinion is that the NC's worked as expected. Certainly a bullet I 'm going to stick with.

Entrance into the shoulder:

Todd:

Good job, thanks for sharing, been extremely busy here, have not been able to check all the posts. Well its life, you do the things that you do not like to do and neglect the things that you love to do.

Obviously the non con 9.3 bullets have done a fabulous job on your bear.

I am going to give them a try myself in both my Sabatti and Chapius.

Best regards

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Michael:

As much as this thread been very interesting and informative, I have not been able to follow it for the last few months, heck it has been almost a year.
Any way I am doing some load development for couple of my 9.3 x74 doubles and would like to give the non con and the solids a try.
At one point if I recall correctly I saw on one of your posts a .366 bullet offered where one end was a non con and the other end was the sold.
Are you offering these and what weight are they (only 255) and I don't see on your thread any more the link to your bullet making site.

Best regards

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Contact Cutting Edge Bullets www.cuttingedgebullets.com and you can find these bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by malek:
Michael:

As much as this thread been very interesting and informative, I have not been able to follow it for the last few months, heck it has been almost a year.
Any way I am doing some load development for couple of my 9.3 x74 doubles and would like to give the non con and the solids a try.
At one point if I recall correctly I saw on one of your posts a .366 bullet offered where one end was a non con and the other end was the sold.
Are you offering these and what weight are they (only 255) and I don't see on your thread any more the link to your bullet making site.

Best regards

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Hi Malek

Well, regardless of your absence we are glad you are back!

Yes, while you were out we all worked on what we call the Raptors--double ended solid one end, NonCon the other. Great bullet. However we did run into major stability issues because of the design, and all Raptors had to be light for caliber to shorten them up some, they are designed basically for bolt guns, seated deep, and add the tip to work through the magazine. At times, just adding the tip would cause the to go unstable. Faster twists are very desirable for the Raptors.

What I know about 9.3X74 Doubles you could balance on the head of a pencil, so you see, it's not much. Taking a wild guess, I would say you might have a slower twist. I can stabilize the 9.3 210 Raptor fine in my 1:12 twist 9.3 B&M rifles. Much slower than that I am not sure?

I have often wondered about the doubles and these bullets? But I am just not sure if they would regulate and or if they would be stable if they did? Depends on the twist rate of course.
I suppose one could give them a try.

I know that the 280/255 combo is excellent, and you can always use those.

Michael

Hi there:

Boom Stick:

Thank you for posting the link.

Michael:

It is good to be back even for a short while, in matter of fact I never left, the only thing I could not find the time even to work on ssome over due projects and to go out and do the most fun thing, shooting my doubles.

Thanks for the info on the Raptors, I think for time's sake and not knowing the twist rate on the rifles, I will leave them alone for the time being, I will stick to working with the solids and non cons.

I will see how they will work in each rifle, but for the time being I am going to start with the solids in the 9.3 and the non con in the .410.

any load data/info recommendations for the 280 sold in 9.3x74?

Best regards

Malek
Good hunting/shooting and God's best

Congratulations guys I just saw a review for the Raptors in July/Aug issue of Sports Afield magazine. Very nice stuff!