Jorge,

If you use a long drop tube of maybe 12 to 18 inches you can get more powder into the case which will aid in seating the CEBs.

Sam

Jorge,

You really should measure what max OAL is for the CEB is in your rifle. Due to the geometry of the CEB ogive compared to round-nose bullets...you may have more room than you think.

The drop tube (I use a 24" when I need one) is also a good idea.

Thanks guys, Yeah I need to precisely measure, but I did take the CEB's ogive into account as well as 450Ne' tips on the OAL he uses and I guess I'm being lazy but I used a drop tube and no issues with 100grs of powder. Ken if you are reading this, do you by any chance have the measurments of your VC 450 handy? jorge

Jorge,

While probably slightly crude...it always worked for me:

Take your cleaning rod and stick it in your barrel to find where the muzzle ends on it and get a rough estimation of that spot. Then take a 6" strip of masking tape and fold it around your cleaning rod length wise wher about an 1" will be sticking out with the rod in the barrel with the tip against the fence.

Now stick the rod in the barrel with the tip against the fence and with a rigid blade placed squarely across the crown...cut a ring in the tape with the blade marking the end of the muzzle.

Step 2 is easier with a helper to mark for you. Take a pencil and with the eraser tip...push a bullet into you chamber against the lands. Have the taped rod still in the barrel. By pushing with each hand against each other...manipulate the bullet a few times in and out of the throat until you are sure the bullet is "just touching the lands". Have your helper mark the spot on the rod with the blade just like in the first step.

Take your caliper and measure the length between the 2 marks and you have MAX OAL for that bullet in that chamber.

It takes only 10 mins and requires buying nothing. You can get it done by yourself if you have to.

I am sure you did not need my description...but I thought I would throw it out there anyway.

Why not just seat bullet long and take your barrels off your gun and drop cartridge in the chambers. You can either mease how much of the case is sticking up or you can seat bullet until rim is flush with breech.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why not just seat bullet long and take your barrels off your gun and drop cartridge in the chambers. You can either mease how much of the case is sticking up or you can seat bullet until rim is flush with breech.

That's how I do it as well.

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why not just seat bullet long and take your barrels off your gun and drop cartridge in the chambers. You can either mease how much of the case is sticking up or you can seat bullet until rim is flush with breech.

I just find it quicker and easier to use the "cleaning rod method". I comapred it to Stoney Point Gauge measurements in cartidges in which I had the threaded case. I found it to be as accurate. Takes me 5 min to establish OAL for my rifle with a given bullet.

Once measured how far of the lands are you seating the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why not just seat bullet long and take your barrels off your gun and drop cartridge in the chambers. You can either mease how much of the case is sticking up or you can seat bullet until rim is flush with breech.

That's how I do it as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
Once measured how far of the lands are you seating the bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Why not just seat bullet long and take your barrels off your gun and drop cartridge in the chambers. You can either mease how much of the case is sticking up or you can seat bullet until rim is flush with breech.

That's how I do it as well.

A good starting place rule of thumb is 0.030" off the lands then see where your rifle likes it.

Busy day yesterday. Lot of shooting work going on here, bits and pieces trying to get everything done before leaving in a couple of weeks, and then too, real work that pays the bills has to be done as well.

Completed the 500 Nitro Barrel Strains early yesterday morning. Here is how it played out.






This data is available on the B&M website, "Additional Research" 500 Nitro! Or, direct to the link below.

http://www.b-mriflesandcartrid...--Barrel-Strain.html


Michael

Not knowing what the double * means, why the high pressure with Hawk Bullet

Zephyr

The Hawks are and have always been extremely soft--I think they are slugging up a bit tight. Also, the Hawks are not as consistent as I would like. In terminal performance I can see little use for a Hawk bullet, over many of the other bullets.

Michael

The Hawk bullet has a long bearing surface also. These bullets were the .025 jcket thickness so I think Michael is right on that they are slugging up.

I have been shooting Hawk Bullets as an inexpensive practice round in my 450NE, my thought at the time was a SOFT BULLET would be kind to the barrels. Perhaps I have to rethink my practice ammo. Any thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
The Hawk bullet has a long bearing surface also. These bullets were the .025 jcket thickness so I think Michael is right on that they are slugging up.

Because it's true, I'll post it here as well:

Excellent work Michael and Sam.

It's good to see fact instead of fantasy and am glad that you post data instead of dreams.

I see you found some 570 grain GS Custom FN bullets. I thought those you were sent were 540 grainers. I'm still interested in the rationale for their diameter - which is no error in your measurement as it is what is posted on the website.

Good stuff and once again thank you for doing the heavy lifting for the rest of us.




And now I have to dig up the 577 work you and Sam have done for the new inhabitant of my gun safe.

Zephyr,

I too used to shoot a lot of Hawks for practice. In the 500 especially I notice more recoil and felt the load was too hot. Strain gage proved it out and if I use them any more it will be with light loads.

Sam

Michael, any data for the Hornady DGX?

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Michael, any data for the Hornady DGX?

The DGX is there at the bottom of the data. Second highest barrel strain right behind the Woodleigh FMJ and just above the DGS.

Still looks like the CEB is the way to go!

Thanks, missed it the first time. Man, SOMEBODY needs to send Michael a 450NE for testing!

Ok guys, back from a couple of range sessions and from my limited data (about 20 rounds), the standard more velocity rule worked to bringing is acceptable groups. Also seating the bullet deeper appears to also improve accuracy. All loads were with H-4831 for my 450NE VC:

Accuracy standard, DGX 50 yds(98gr) 2120~ fps:


25& 50 yds 480 BBW 99gr (OAL 3.995):


25yd BBW 100gr (3.935):


50yds 480 BBW 100gr (four rounds, fifth was under a black sticker patch. 3.935



Velocities ranged from 2095-2130 with the one grain delta not making appreciable difference in velocities. As an aside, Woodleigh softs are about on a par with DGXs accuracy-wise. I'll also add I have a tendency to cant the rifle a bit "right wing down" off the bags and you can tell when I forget to check myself!jorge

Lookin' good Jorge!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Thanks, missed it the first time. Man, SOMEBODY needs to send Michael a 450NE for testing!

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If I had a 450 nitro double the last person I would send it to is a serial hacksaw barrel molester.

465H&H

okie-doke...

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If I had a 450 nitro double the last person I would send it to is a serial hacksaw barrel molester.

465H&H

Oh man, I really love to help all you guys out with these things, especially my buddy Sam! He is coming this week to pick up his 500 Nitro and 470 Nitro, he is going to love these shorter barrels I have for him! Both of them down to 18 inches, they handle great. Had a little bit of a hard time doing the re-crown with a flat bastard file (all I had on hand) but doubles are for short range anyway, so no worries. Touched everything up with some cold-blue, can hardly tell anything was done! Some reason it looks a little uneven, but only if you look real hard, never could cut straight anyway! Well, I reckon the pointy part of the bottom you could just sharpen up a bit and use it like a bayonet or something if you run out of ammo. A few other things broke of, not sure what those extra parts were, but I just duct taped everything back that broke, so it should be fine. Oh, and I put duct tape back over where the strain gages were attached, they were a little hard to remove to begin with, but that bastard file got everything off, but the cold blue didn't take so well, so I just covered it with duct tape too.

Yeah Man, anyone wants to send something for me to use for test work, I don't mind go ahead and get it on the way, I will sort it out for you!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
If I had a 450 nitro double the last person I would send it to is a serial hacksaw barrel molester.

465H&H

Oh man, I really love to help all you guys out with these things, especially my buddy Sam! He is coming this week to pick up his 500 Nitro and 470 Nitro, he is going to love these shorter barrels I have for him! Both of them down to 18 inches, they handle great. Had a little bit of a hard time doing the re-crown with a flat bastard file (all I had on hand) but doubles are for short range anyway, so no worries. Touched everything up with some cold-blue, can hardly tell anything was done! Some reason it looks a little uneven, but only if you look real hard, never could cut straight anyway! Well, I reckon the pointy part of the bottom you could just sharpen up a bit and use it like a bayonet or something if you run out of ammo. A few other things broke of, not sure what those extra parts were, but I just duct taped everything back that broke, so it should be fine. Oh, and I put duct tape back over where the strain gages were attached, they were a little hard to remove to begin with, but that bastard file got everything off, but the cold blue didn't take so well, so I just covered it with duct tape too.

Yeah Man, anyone wants to send something for me to use for test work, I don't mind go ahead and get it on the way, I will sort it out for you!

If the bastard file didn't quite get the re-crown to your liking, you can always touch it up with a dremel tool!

Hey I love short barrels as long as they are regulated fine by me.

As far as 450-400 and 450 you'll have to get Michael a bolt gun or at least a falling block for him to work with. I think he is about doubled out. I was going to get an Encore with all the NE barrels to do tests with and I thought he was going to pitch a fit.

I think anything with more than one barrel confuses and frustrates the old codger.

465H&H

Who was it that made that monstrocity bolt action double rifle I used to see at SCI???

Maybe that design is what Michael should work on for a new B&M.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who was it that made that monstrocity bolt action double rifle I used to see at SCI???

Maybe that design is what Michael should work on for a new B&M.

No, that won't work because it has two barrels AND a bolt. That will cause him quadruple confusion. I'll bet he would work the bolt after every shot and spew loaded rounds as well as empties all through the bundu!


465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I think anything with more than one barrel confuses and frustrates the old codger.

465H&H

TWO BARRELS! I never could figure out why there are not TWO SETS OF SIGHTS? I keep looking for a right and a left sight? Two rifles glued together, I reckon they got to cheap to add a set of sights for each barrel! As much as the things costs, looks like they would pop for an extra set of sights, would be easier to regulate too I figure!

Oh Hell, I can duct tape two B&M Win M70s together and have a double bolt gun! Just have to have a left hand and a right hand gun is all! And of course figure out how to work the left one?

What will they think of next you reckon?



Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
Who was it that made that monstrocity bolt action double rifle I used to see at SCI???

Maybe that design is what Michael should work on for a new B&M.

No, that won't work because it has two barrels AND a bolt. That will cause him quadruple confusion. I'll bet he would work the bolt after every shot and spew loaded rounds as well as empties all through the bundu!


465H&H

Simple solution to that is to have both barrels fire with a single trigger pull! No need to worry 'bout loaded ammo being thrown around with that solution.

Well gents, another session with the CEBs and given the powder space I'm working with and the fact I am not willing to experiment with different powders, I am satisfied with 2-2.5" groups @ 50 yards with the solids and an average MV of 2120 fps, particularly when the first round always cuts center on the bull and hits to POI with DGXs (factory and handloads) DGS (factory) and Woodleigh Softs. Thanks Michael!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Well gents, another session with the CEBs and given the powder space I'm working with and the fact I am not willing to experiment with different powders, I am satisfied with 2-2.5" groups @ 50 yards with the solids and an average MV of 2120 fps, particularly when the first round always cuts center on the bull and hits to POI with DGXs (factory and handloads) DGS (factory) and Woodleigh Softs. Thanks Michael!

Jorge

I am pleased they are working for you, to your satisfaction. You may or may not be at the best you will get with your rifle, but I think it's certainly adequate to accomplish the mission of a double, close. 50 yards to me, is getting way out there, both for double and irons, and for Dangerous Game to begin with regardless of action. At 25 yds, good proper distances, then you are in excellent shape for any scenario that might present itself! I concur!

No Thanks needed, enjoy!

Michael

Well men, just got back from the range after trying out Michael's 450gr Non-Cons and I have to say I think I am now firmly convinced. Accuracy and less barrel strain and that combibed with the excellent reports from the field from Doc and the rest, I'm all in and now I have four different bullets Woodleighs, Hornadys and Non-Cons(six if you count the BBW and Hornady solids). Four shots @ 50 yards off the bags:

Nice shootin Jorge.

Excellent Jorge! Excellent!

Now I am not so sure you guys down here have been paying much attention to the Terminal Thread upstairs, but I have been pulling my hair out for days on end with Low Velocity Shear Points. During this test work I discovered at Low Impact Velocity the TIPS we had just were not worth a damn hoot in hell--In the medium and big bores. So I have tested all week long, and between us we got the TIPS fixed and sorted out. If you currently have any tips now for your NonCons, they are OBSOLETE---Beware of Impact Velocities below 2000 fps or so. I would think, that if anyone down here has any tips they would be the long pointy ones, they are more fragile and work better than some of the shorter tips with the flat meplats, which are tough, and not very fragile and screws you at low velocity impacts.

Now, this week we have an entirely NEW DESIGN--new shape, shorter, very much more appealing and is just plain damned WICKED! The NEW tips will have a small hollow point in the nose which I believe we are getting some hydraulics working for us, in addition to making the tips fragile upon impact. So far with only two tests, and nothing conclusive yet, I am getting Low Velocity Shear Points with the Tips added that is 50-60 FPS LESS than what a straight NonCon will shear at! Which was an unexpected + if it holds true in further tests, which we will learn later. Also the stud that keeps the tip in place has been improved as well.

I am sure that CEB will be working on getting the New Tips in production in the various calibers as soon as possible. I am using the new tips in both 9.3 and .500 starting the end of next week in South Africa for some thin skinned shooting, and I will know how they work in the field from that. I can't see any downsides.

Now for you double guys, this is a NO BRAINER. Since you don't feed from a magazine the tips are just not an issue. While you are not looking for any long range work with your doubles, the great advantage is that the Tips provide you with a LOT more Velocity At Impact at ANY RANGE, and Especially Close range to 50 yds! Under most circumstances you are going to impact 150 fps faster with the tips at 50 yards, than without! That is significant with these NonCons, as the more velocity at impact, the more trauma produced! If I was a double guy, every NonCon I had would have a New Designed HP Talon Tip in the end!

Just FYI---

Michael

Thanks for the update Michael. So are the Non-Cons equipped with these tips?

I've got the "long pointy" tips for the 375 Flanged but haven't had the chance to try them out yet - either on paper or game.
I suspect they will be OK but look forward to some field reports with these.

Jorge,

A small bag of the Talon Tips are included with an order of the ESP Raptor bullets. Additional Talon Tips can be purchased separately from the Raptors...though you'll have to look on the CEB website in the section for Raptors.

If you look on page 227 of the Terminal Bullet Performance Thread you'll find the new production Talon Tip in .416 caliber.