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Dave The only reply that is or was directed to you directly was at 6:30 AM this morning. Nothing else was directed to you personally. Go back up top, read my 6:30 am post, to you. And yes Dave, I am quite sure Graeme Wright knows a hell of a lot more about double rifles than I will ever know, or ever give a shit about knowing, thank you! Yes, I got the post via email. Thanks, for what was not directed at you at all. Had nothing to do with you, the first part directed at Todd, cause I knew he was going to say that. And No Apology this time, as I nothing was directed to you! If I direct something to you, I will say as much!
I have found that many times many things may be "Possible". One cannot discount anything until that road has been traveled. That barrel has had now 40 test bullets shot down it of all configurations, then I shot some heavy loads down it to record velocities of that barrel length, which now I can't find! 50 rounds or so at this point. NOw, I still ask this, has ANYONE measured and see how thin .03735 is?????? Come now, I want to KNOW....................??????? OK OK OK.... Here is a HINT.......... How thick is 10 pages of COPY PAPER from Office Depot? COPY PAPER.......... Not photo, not card stock, regular old copy paper that goes in a copy machine..... So you understand, this is the question How Thick is 10 Pages Of Copy Paper? Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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This has been fun to watch today---  | |||
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OK so some seem to think the reason we aren't seeing this in the barrel we are using is because of the type of steel it is made of. I have also heard of people saying they have seen OSR first hand. Two things if you want Michael and I to take this test further. Does anyone have a early .458 barrel they would not mind donating one to use. Any barrel from a trapdoor springfield or an old winchester 45-70 or 45-90 should work. Length is not very important but bore should be in pretty good shape. Anyone having seen OSR please send or post photos of this. If you actually have a barrel or gun that shows this I would like to see it for myself. No one seems to be able to show proof of this happening. Its always "well a guy I know saw it" or "I have seen it but I have not proof". I'm just trying to find the facts for all of our sakes! Sam | |||
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Try going back in history with a search for OSR. There's a long thread with names and dates. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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srose As I've said before, I've seen it, on a 404J Bolt action. No I don't have proof because I didn't bother taking photos - which IMHO would be very hard to do - and because to be honest, seen it and moved on. Don't you believe Graeme Wright ? What you are saying is unless someone shows you photographic proof, you don't believe them ? That's like saying we don't believe Michael's bullet tests because we haven't seen photographic evidence of the penetration distance he claims. Get real. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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This Woul not shock me on a 404 since the barrel and bullet diameters have so much variance compared to most. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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That had crossed my mind. The only think I don't know is what Bullet caused it. It was the late 80's or 90's I believe. . Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Michael & Todd, Now you know why I have Dave Bush on my very short Ignore List.  Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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505, All I'm saying is I want to see it!! I have yet to see anyone show proof of it. I have seen proof of Michael's penetration tests and many other have too. Yes I understand your comments and all I'm trying to do is prove it. Hey I think hard bullets a hard on barrels but what are hard bullets? I think Michael and I have shown the differences in pressures created by different bullets when loaded with same charges. We have tried to prove as much as possible or at least give a comparison. The whole purpose of doing the OSR tests is to see what really does happen. Oh I wanted those lands to pop out to the outside of the barrel for sure when we shot some of the bullets we shot. I just don't see how there is any possible way to push rifling to the outside of a barrel toward the muzzle or even along the barrel. At the chamber throat area I think it would be possible but I have no way of doing this safely. I also think Gramme Wright has done a lot of great research and I thank him for doing it. Thanks for your comments. Sam | |||
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505G
You see, the issue is, that I don't personally doubt at all that you, other folks, have seen this so called OSR. Referred to, and described as "Candy Striping" down the barrel. In general it is "Blamed" on hard bullets going down the bore. This is where I fall off the wagon, as yet no one has said that they have watched OSR happen because of so called hard bullets going down the barrel. The story is always this "OSR is Real, I have seen it"... "I have seen OSR, candy striping down the barrel".... "I Examined rifles that had OSR"... No one yet, that has come forward and said "I witnessed OSR happen when shooting hard bullets down the bore"......... ????????? Our very own Todd Williams has seen "Candy Striping" down the barrel, from a rifle that never heard of a hard bullet, and it came from the factory that way!!!!!!!!!! See BELOW.........
Now, this is me, Michael.... Of course I believe Graeme Wright saw a couple or three barrels with "Candy Striping"..... I have no reason not to believe him. What has to be proved to ME, is it was caused by a bullet going down the bore! And not some factory rifling malfunction in the barrel! Remember, Sam and I were shooting a barrel, and the wall thickness was only 10 pages of Copy Paper thick, or thin, however you wish to think of it..... .03735..... 10 Pages Of Copy Paper Wall Thickness!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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srose Aaaahhhh, you've seen Michael's penetration tests but I haven't so I don't believe them !!! That's what you are saying. You expect us to believe something yet you say "No one seems to be able to show proof of this happening. Its always "well a guy I know saw it" or "I have seen it but I have not proof"." Graeme Wright has seen it, a person who has a hell of a lot of credibility in the marketplace yet you apply double standards Re "hard bullets", hell I use what works and go hunting !!! The only way I think you get proof is to see it yourself, either on one that OSR occured or to induce it yourself as you are wanting to do. On the 404J barrel, it was damn hard to see it and only when you got angle / light correct. Of course their may be more pronounced versions of it. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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505G, AAHHHH, Yes you can see those penetration tests for yourself if you like. It can be proved very easily and is very repeatable. Call Michael and I'll meet you there to watch. Like I said Gramme has done a lot of great research and I thank him for it. His information on hard bullets is why my original English doubles have never been poluted with a steel jacketed bullet other than an original Kynoch cordite loaded steel solid. He is the reason I was so excited about working with Michael on the pressure and barrel strain tests we did. Also it was the reason for the original two band BBW#13 being devoloped. Yes I believe a lot of what Gramme wrote. Show me the repeatable proof of OSR, Show me one photo or one barrel that has it and prove that it was a bullet that made it happen and not a button going down the barrel to make the rifling. Sam | |||
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But the bottom line is that anything that plastically deformed a barrel such as described in the definition of OSR...would definitely be found with strain gauge measurement of barrel strain. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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 http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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"and prove that it was a bullet that made it happen and not a button going down the barrel to make the rifling." Agree, the button could have made it, however if it wasn't there before but is now and the only diff is a bullet has been fired ??? A lot more questions to be answered. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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How many of us have actually really looked for it before we shot the gun? | |||
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Yes, but look closely at the claims of OSR. I have yet to see anyone claim that the barrel was clean, then a "hard" bullet was fired through it, then the stripes appeared. Every claim has been, I've seen the stripes and it was therefore caused by a "hard" bullet. I just don't understand why guys continue to claim a "hard" bullet caused barrel striping when every test conducted with a clean barrel in an attempt to produce OSR has yet to do so! If OSR is real, it should be a very simple test to confirm it. Take a new, or unmarked barrel, fire "hard" bullets down it, and if striping appears, it can be said that is the cause. If striping does not appear, then it isn't real. The striping is real, but the cause has not been proven. Michael and Sam's latest test seem to have disproven OSR. I'd say that is enough to form an informed opinion. | |||
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Gentlemen, not to get involved in any sort of Hatfield and McCoy Fued... And I did not read every post in this thread... I HAVE SEEN with MY OWN eyes, on several vintage British Doubles, evidence on the outside of the barrels, what you guys are calling OSR. ALSO, there was a fella in Australia, that had a Chapuis 9,3x74R, that whas shooting Barnes X bullets, and had the solder on his barrels come loose. He sent the rifle back to Chapuis in France and they fixed it. He then had the barrels come loose again, and sent the rifle back a second time. The Chapuis factory contacted him and asked him "what are you shooting". When he said Barnes X bullets, they told them not to shoot them in their gun... I will add that I do not thing it makes ANY difference how much effort it takes to MACHINE a certain metal. What matters is, IMHO, how much COMPRESSION does the bullet have. A lead core bullet is easier to compress than ANY monolithic bullet. The ONLY monolithic bullets safe to shoot in double rifles, again IMHO, are those that have thin rings on the bullet, with enough area between the rings for the displacement of the rings by the lands, and where the shaft of the bullet does NOT touch the barrel in ANY WAY. Not only do you have to worry about "OSR" in a double rifle you also have to worry about a bullet that expands the barrel so much that it "breaks" loose the solder between the barrel and the rib. Older doubles, and doubles with softer steel barrels, are more suspectable to this than say a new made double rifle with a quality steel Hammer forged barrel. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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good post | |||
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Is this similar to your guess about lead being harder than brass?  The steel cups seem to compress enough to accept the lands engraving. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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No Mike, the steel cup does not compress. The engraving of the lands occurs into the guilding metal surrounding the steel cup, not the steel cup itself. If the guilding metal is not thick enough to keep the lands off of the steel cup, then you are going to get some amount of damage to the lands. | |||
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Todd I know of vintage double rifles that did not have what you guys call OSR, and they were shot with the old Barnes X bullets and developed what you guys call OSR. IMHO the lands of the barrel take most of the pressure of the bullet, as it passes down the barrel. IF a bullet does not compress enough, something has to give. It could be the solder on the barrel, or on older softer steel barrels the stress on the lands caused the barrel to permentally expand, on the lands. This enables a person to see the lands on the outside of the barrel. I have never been able to FEEL the effects of OSR, and I never had a good enough tool to measure OSR, but I have SEEN it several times. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Section one out and look at it yourself. I have. That guilding is very few thousandths. The chrome plating on a 57 Chevy bumper is much thicker. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Todd That Ruger barrel could have been OSR'd at the factory shooting proof rounds. Also I know of several vintage British double rifles that had OSR, and the owners had the barrels restriked and refinsihed, removing the signs of OSR. I saw several rifles both before and after the restrike, and refinish. I always recomend against restriking a barrel with the signs of OSR. Why would you want to remove steel from the outside of an older barrel, just making it weaker. Also you do not remove metal on the part of the barrel under the ribs, so now the barrel, is not round, and even weaker away from the rib. Also as a side note, not that I think barrel bursting is related to OSR I have seen several vintage double rifles that had burst barrels. I burst the barrel on a Holland and Holland 500/465 myself. All of these barrels burst way out in front of the chamber [indicating that a high pressure load was not the cause], and they always burst away from the ribs. The ribs are soldered to the barrels on double rifles. The area between the ribs cannot ecpand as much as the rest of the barrel. SO if the rifling is Over Stressed, by a noncompressable bullet, the barrel would have to expand more away from the rib, not in a concentric manner, like a bolt rifle. Which could be why we see more OSR barrels from vintage doubles, vs vintage bolt rifles, made with the same barrel steel. Also some of the first bullets made when vintage double rifles started being shot again, were Monolithic bullets. Most bolt rifle calibres on the other hand usually had conventional bullets always being made for them. Again causing less noncompressionable mono bullets to be shot in vintage bolt rifles. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I just went and looked at Hornadys site for the DGX and DGS. http://www.hornady.com/store/DGX http://www.hornady.com/store/DGS Their artistic rendition of the bullets isn't what I see from sectioning them out. The guilding is much less and their picture doesn't show the plating of the guilding metal on the inside of the steel tube. I'd say that the cups/tubes are plated before the lead is inserted. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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Im my above posts when I mention Barnes X bullets I also include Barnes Monolothic solids, and any of the other full sized Mono bullets being made durring that time. There were several smaller mono bullet makers as well. Sorry I was not entirely clear. Even Mike Brady told me NOT to shoot his 458 Soft Points in my 450 No2, as they had a full diameter section of copper, just behind where the lead core stopped and before the "finned" area began. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Tony, If you are saying that you have seen a barrel, free of the striping, then striping appeared after firing an old style Barnes X, I'll have to take your word on it. You would be the very first person to my knowledge stating that you observed the barrel before and after firing the bullet and can irrefutably attribute the striping to the bullet. All the other claims have simply been that the striping is there, therefore it was caused by a bullet. I have seen the striping, most definitely NOT cause by a bullet being fired down the tube. Listen, I'm with you on the issue of breaching the solder joint by excess pressure or more properly strain. That would be common sense. But this OSR thing, I just can't buy. I suppose I'm really not doing a very good job of explaining my train of thought concerning it. But it revolves around the PERFECT imprint of rifling on the outside of the barrel. Firstly, when metal is worked into a shape, it helps greatly if that metal is first heated extensively to become somewhat pliable. Then, in order to get a PERFECT imprint, you need a form or template of some type for the pressure being exerted to force the metal into inorder to both cause the metal to take that PERFECT shape of the striping as well as not burst the barrel. Thinking about it critically, it would be much more likely if OSR was real, for the "hard" bullet to smear the rifling down the tube instead of causing a PERFECT imprint on the outside without a form or template of some type to help create that pattern, especially in a piece of steel that is cold and non-pliable. In other words, say you had a 12" piece of barrel with rifling. Into this barrel, you place a 12" expanding rod which expands outward with great force by use of hydraulics. Now you begin to crank up the outward pressure on the barrel by expanding the rod. Do you think this will cause the rifling inside the barrel to push to the outside or to flatten within the barrel first. Knowing that the barrel is much thicker than the height (or thickness) of the lands themselves, I'd say the rifling lands will flatten or damage in some manner first as the rifling will be much less resistant to pressure than the complete circle of steel forming the outer barrel. As you continue to expand the rod and exert more and more pressure, will the rifling push to the outside of the barrel or will it continue to flatten and even split the barrel? Then you release the pressure from the expanding rod. Will a PERFECT rifling imprint remain on the outside of that cold barrel? Even if you had a template surrounding the outside of the barrel that PERFECTLY matched the rifling on the inside of the barrel while expanding the internal rod, would steel be forced into the form exactly matching the rifling on the inside now on the outside? I just don't see how? Then consider that the expanding rod scenario is much more precise than how a bullet travels down the barrel as it pushes it way down the barrel while it is expanding the barrel as well. That is probably still lacking in explanation but it's the way my mind sees the process. It seems much more likely to damage the internal rifling than to push rifling to the outside of the barrel should a "hard" bullet pass down the tube. Especially in cold steel without an outside opposing force in the shape of a rifling template that perfectly matches the rifling. Damn, now my brain is hurting!  | |||
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Mike, I'm not sure I completely understand what you are stating here. I haven't sectioned a Hornaday bullet so bare with me. Are you saying that when you section a bullet, there is gilding metal on the inside of the steel cup as well? If so, what purpose does that serve? Also, are you saying that the gilding metal on the outside of the cup is actually thinner than the artist rendering? The point of the gilding metal over the steel cup is to take the engraving. The steel cup should NEVER come into contact with the rifling! There should be quite a few pictures of Hornady DGS and DGX recovered bullets here on AR. I don't think I've ever seen one (that remained intact) that shows signs of the rifling penetrating the copper all the way down to the steel cup. | |||
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Todd, Take one of them ,( your choice,)run a hacksaw lengthwise thru it and see for yourself. They appearantly electro plate the steel so it would be plated inside as well as the outside of the core. Yes it's thinner than they show in that picture on the web. I did just this when a 'know it all' here professed that the Hornadys weren't built as it show in the website. He was wrong. I still have the sectioned bullets here. I don't have any macro lens to be able to take a pic either. edit, like I said prove it to yourself and cut one in half yourself. You'll need to file away the lead smearing over the steel jacket afterwards. File toward the middle of the bullet so the lead isn't on the steel or guilding plating. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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It'd be interesting to be able to get an actual measurment of this layer by turning it down on a lathe until the steel is barely exposed and measure the differences. Possibly it could be reverse plated or what ever it's called. I forget. NRA Life ASSRA Life DRSS Today's Quote: Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Give a man a welfare check, a free cell phone with free monthly minutes, food stamps, section 8 housing, a forty ounce malt liquor, a crack pipe and some Air Jordan's and he votes Democrat for a lifetime. | |||
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When they eletroplate the steel jacket its probably cheaper just to plate the entire thing, rather than needlessly 'masking off' the surfaces that dont require copper plating. | |||
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Tony, I want to address something, before misunderstanding occur. This OSR thing, is merely another test to me. I could actually care less either way, as it has zero effect on me personally. It also has zero from my standpoint to do with any particular bullet make, in the barrel Sam and I are testing, nothing has caused a problem, not Woodleigh, nor Hornady, nor old barnes X or old barnes round nose full bearing surface monos. BBW#13s and NOrth Forks caused no issues either. I was actually looking forward to laughing my ass off when the Woodleigh or Hornady blew the end of the barrel out!  But, alas neither did anything to this barrel! LOL.............. Last weeks test, barrel was thin as piss on a rock..... .03735 wall thickness..... 10 pages of cheap copy paper. Measure that people and see for yourself how thin those barrel walls are.... PLEASE!!!!!!!!! And NOTHING happened, barrel did not even expand except when heated by a high friction bullet with lots of bearing surface, and in a minute it cooled and went right back to original size. Don't take a lot to heat a wall thickness.... that thin! OSR... I really don't care, another test to me is all. As stated before, I can't say much about OLD rifles, soft steel, nor european barrels at the time, seems OSR is centered on old vintage British Doubles? Having not traveled that road and done test work, I can't say one way or the other how or what would cause the candy striping, but currently I would lean towards methods of rifling that barrel myself, without definitive actual PROOF of bullets causing it.
The Old X BULLETS, without bands, along with the mono solids without Bands, produced High Barrel strains on the strain gages. Right along with Woodleigh FMJ and Hornady DGS. In some cases higher, some lower, depending on actual "Diameter" of the barnes, some barnes we tested were undersized, less barrel strain.... And so forth. So this is directly related to strain and easy to understand.
Absolutely correct, and I concur, all directly related to the amount of strain put on the barrel. And just good common sense. This very thread is loaded with the barrel strain information and data collected, and there is NO DOUBT, some bullets cause more barrel strain than others, and no doubt that those bullets should not be fired in old vintage guns, and most should not be fired in even new guns. I don't imagine all double rifles are created equal, some may be stronger, better built, better metal, even better gunsmiths putting them together, than others. There seems to be lots of makers and models out there. Old Vintage, expensive, collector guns, not sure I would shoot them at all! I don't have things like that, because I shoot, don't need anything I need to be concerned with about shooting. OSR..... Real, imagined, bullet manufacturers trashing each others bullets, gun manufacturers looking to blame something other than themselves, old vintage steel, who knows, I don't know. What I do know is Sam and I can't get OSR so far, with the thinest barrel ever tested, that is the Fact of the Matter. Now the barrel is turned down even thinner, down to .02500, which is now 7 pages of cheap copy paper thin... that is the barrel wall thickness, 7 pages of cheap copy paper! Frankly I will be totally amazed if it don't blow wide open on the first shot.... That is THIN, it is thinner than piss on a rock... in fact, its thinner than piss drying on a rock! Suppose we will find out very soon. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The hard monometal bullets called out!! ``The double rifle bullet of the future``...What a JOKE!! Whenever a barrel stops shooting and they have not been heated up like crazy and they do not have there throat eroded away,I have always suspected monometal bullets.But I will be fair as I am a fair guy and say that I do not have scientific proof to back this up and I could be wrong. | |||
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OSR or not. No Hatfields and McCoys here, just trying to see what happens for all to see. I've really enjoyed working with Michael doing all the tests we have done. Always looking for something else interesting to test that hasn't been done or maybe no one has talked about it. My first love is double rifles and I have a bunch of them. BPEs to full nitros, old 1869 to 2012s new. So I think I can say I'm doing most of these tests for myself and for my own peace of mind. Kinda like the Chicken or the egg debate, It will go on as long as time goes on. Some of my thoughts on OSR are that yes hard bullets are hard on barrels but so could soft lead be hard on them. Fillers cause weard things to happen so this could be part of the problem. Seems like most of the quote OSR guns are vintage doubles that were being shot with monos in the 60s or 70s from what I here. In those days very little was known about loading for these big cartridges. A lot of experimenting was going on. I'm sure no one had a clue of the pressures they were putting thru these guns. Bore sizes vary a lot in older guns and send a .001 to .005 oversize bullet down a thin soldered barrel is bound to have an effect on solder joints. Rifling type can have a big effect on the outward pressures to the side walls of a barrel. Has anyone recorded all the details of OSR? Bullet type,powder used,amount of powder used,filler type and amount used,age of gun,manufacturer of gun,rifling type and so on. Years of poor cleaning and shooting can also effect solder joints. Poorly boiling out barrel after soldering them can have grave effects on rib solder joints. Bluing of older guns in hot salts can weaken the joints of soft soldered ribs. So many things can being part of the issue that we have very few ways to know for sure what caused a problem. We are just trying to find out what all this OSR is about. If you have ideas of how to make it happen well I'm willing to try it. A lot of people here on AR have been very helpful in a lot of the tests Michael and I have done and we thank you for your input and stuff you sent us to try. Sam | |||
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I have never seen a case of OSR but that doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. One of the problems that I see is that we don't have an exact definition of the term that we can all agree on. Does OSR cause candy stripping on the out side of the barrel without any change in barrel diameter? Does it cause a change in outside barrel diameter? Does it force the lands into the barrel walls? It appears we have several different definitions of the results of OSR. One thing that hasn't been measured so far to my knowledge is "Does OSR cause a change in the internal barrel diameter"? If that is the case it would seem that sooner or later accuracy would suffer. As an aside I just looked at my collection of solid bullets recovered from elephants that I shot and recovered myself. I have two Hornady 500 grain DGS solids in that batch and neither show that the lands cut all the way trough the gilding metal coating over the steel cores. You can see the gilding metal jacket, steel core and lead core by looking at the base of the bullets. The thickness of the gilding metal looks sufficient to hold the lands and there is no sign of gilding metal on the inside of the steel jacket. Several Woodleigh solids shot from my 465 or 470 show that the lands have cut into the steel jackets. These were older runs and the newest runs don't show that deep of cuts through the gilding metal. It appears that Woodleigh may have increased the depth of the gilding metal jackets. Several 550 grain Woodleigh solids also show that the lands did not cut into the steel jackets. 465H&H | |||
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Very shortly after Hornady released the DGX and DGS bullets I contacted them regarding the specific depth of the copper cladding. I was informed by Hornady that they purchase the copper clad steel already bonded together and that the copper cladding – depending upon the caliber – adds 0.024”-0.032” total thickness to the steel cup diameter, or 0.012”-0.016” thickness for rifling engraving… I was also informed that as the steel within the jacket does not compress so the displaced copper will expand upwards and outwards slightly when the groove diameter is greater than the bullet diameter and that any excess displaced copper is pushed towards the base of the bullet. Can I prove this – nope cause I don’t own/use the DGX or DGS bullets, but I’ve no reason to disbelieve Hornady. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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| One of Us |
Exactly--I have an idea or two, but it would depend on the definition. If its just candy striping with no dimensional changes I am wondering about heat differential changing the blueing-just a thought | |||
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| One of Us |
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