quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well now, that got your attention eh? The Double Rifle Bullet of the Future! Sorta catchy I think!

HI all, those of you that don't know me, I am just Michael, I stay upstairs for the most part in the big bore forum, but I have something that is so very important, or at least I think it is, I simply must share it with you, as it pertains more to you than it does even to me. I am a bullet nut, and love solid bullets. I started the Terminal Performance Thread upstairs from you last November.

So what do I have for you, and what in the hell am I talking about, the Double Rifle Bullet of the Future?

Well here is the story! My good friend and buddy, SRose, you boys see him here from time to time. We have been working hard for many months testing new nose profiles for solids to see what we could come up with. Sam does the bullet making, I do the testing! Some time ago I handed him a sample of a bullet, and asked if he could come up with something. Well he did, several variations of the nose profile, and just so happens we hit on one, we call it the BBW #13, as it has a 13 degree nose angle! Penetration is extreme with this bullet, it's dead straight line penetration, and it seems to go across to any caliber we have tested and worked with, and that has been fairly extensive. Please, if you want to know more, got up to the Terminal Bullet Performance thread, they are posted there. Currently we are working on these bullets with Cutting Edge Bullets, new to the dangerous game bullet market. All CNC bullets, copper or brass of course. I have placed orders now for this bullet in my own .500 caliber rifles, and in addition to that .510 caliber, 474 caliber, .458 caliber, 416 caliber, to work thru my bolt guns and my own cartridges the B&M Series.

Now Sam is our double rifle fan, and expert as far as I am concerned. Sam owns a lot of double rifles, I don't know how many, I have seen a dozen different ones so far, and I am quite sure I have not seen them all! Sam wanted this BBW #13 for his double rifles too. It's performance enhances the capabilities of any and all cartridges you can put it in! But our concern was shooting monos that are ill designed in the double rifles, splitting the barrels apart and so forth, and whatever damage you can do to one. I am not a double expert, but understand the concept. Sam came up with several band designs that we have been trying and working with in his doubles. We sent prototypes to Cutting Edge Bullets, from here out known as CEB! And we received a couple of weeks ago a run of prototypes in copper, with a 2 band design.

Here are some of these samples we tested.





What is so impressive about these bullets is the consistent straight line penetration. Now it was Sam's contention that the two band design had to put less stress on the barrels than normal fmj bullets, or even multi band bullets. This obviously made good common sense to me too. Here is a comparison of a 3 band version.



Obviously as you can see, much less bearing surface, has to cause less stress. Or one would think so anyway.

I run a Pressure Trace system when I need to test pressures of any of my cartridges, and loads. Sam saw this one day, and decided we should hook the system up to a double rifle, a strain gage in the rear to measure actual pressures, and a strain gage on the barrel to make an attempt at measuring the stress put on the barrel at the point of where the strain gage is attached. With some thought on that matter, I could see no downside to at least make the effort to see what we could learn. I could not find a reason that it would not work, since that is what a strain gage does, it measures the amount of barrel stretch either by pressure, or the passage of a bullet down the bore!

The Pressure Trace had been very reliable for me on all matters in the past, and I have tested it against factory ammo, and my own case measurements and observations, so as long as the gage is attached properly, and the connections are good, then it is a viable tool that one can use to measure pressures. It may not be exact, but it has always correlated will with all other factors, including factory ammo tests.

So last week we attached the strain gages to one of Sam's 470 Nitro Double rifles, one in the rear for pressure readings, and one 5 inches from the muzzle to see if we could get a reading as the bullet passed that point on the barrel. Sam did all the loading and used the same load throughout the test, 106 grs of IMR 4831, Federal 215 Primers, New 470 Nitro brass, to keep things as consistent as possible. Sam did have some old, original Kyoch loads with Cordite that we tested in addition to the other loads. We tested the 500 gr Woodleigh FMJ and Soft Point, 500 gr Barnes Banded, 500 gr Hornady DGS, old orginal 500 gr Barnes Copper Tube bullets, a 466 gr Brass BBW #13, and a 500 gr Copper BBW#13 by CEB.

Since we did not know what the results might be we decided to test only 2 rounds for pressure, and two rounds for barrel strain. Extra rounds were loaded in case there were any foul ups, anomalies, or any questions. The only problem we had during the test, on one of the loads I had the wrong setting on the computer, and we had to use a 3rd round. Other than that, there were no anomalies or other strange happenings. Everything correlated down the line with pressure readings, barrel strain, and velocity readings, so there is a high amount of confidence in the test work, and I am very sure it can be repeated, and we already have a plan in place to do more test work, and repeatable test work.

Now, before I go further, I am very excited about this, and get carried away with it sometimes, so my apology.

I have to explain something to you--I have nothing to sell you, I am not trying to sell you anything, I am nor is Sam, in the bullet making business, I am not part of any bullet manufacturing company, and I am not looking to be, I have a job, and I don't want another one. I don't even own a double rifle, and I never have, and I probably never will, it's just not my thing. So I have time and money invested in this project, not for myself, but for you! I do love bullets, and only good ones! I shoot a lot, test a lot, and love to do it! All my stuff is primarily big bore, I dabble some in 9.3 caliber, but that is about it, the rest of my total interest is larger bore rifles. So I am not here for myself, nothing to sell you, and I could care less whether you like this, believe this, or not. It's for you, not for me, so do with it as you please, if it helps, great I will do everything I can to help you, if you don't like it, fine with me.

Something else too, I am not nor is Sam, claiming that this is 100% safe in your rifles, that's for you to decide based on the data I am getting ready to present you with. Sam says it's safe in his double rifles and that is what he is going to use, that's good enough for me, and the data speaks for itself. But if you go blow your crap up with one of these because you filled the case full of bullseye instead of IMR 4831, and then blame it on the bullet, well that's your problem, not mine, nor Sams, nor the maker of the bullet, no claims made, you make your own mind up on that.

I can tell you this, even though I have no double rifle, and don't want one, I was way more excited about this data as it came across the computer screen than any of you guys, I was dancing on the floor of the range yesterday!! Ask Sam, he was there!


My good friend Capoward has made an excellent spreadsheet that has all the data listed on it in easy order to read, I think he may post that after I do this post. In between, I am going to post the actual data reports for you to look at. I hope it's of some use to you and will assist you in future choices of bullets, but it's totally up to you to choose what you think is best, I can't tell you what is best for you. All I can tell you is what I would do, and that is all.

Please remember #1 Reports are for actual Pressure Data

#2 reports are for what I have been calling barrel strain, for lack of a better term.



Before Capo gets his spreadsheet up, I have it summary for you here;


1. 500 Woodleigh FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44899 PSI--Velocity 2110 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--23667


2. 500 Woodleigh Soft Point #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 36892 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--21903


3. 500 Barnes Banded Solid #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 46738 PSI--Velocity 2169 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22848


4. 500 Barnes Original Copper Tube Solid/FMJ #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 43214 PSI--Velocity 2126 fps
#2 Barrel Strain--21525


5. 500 Hornady DGS #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 44147 PSI--Velocity 2104 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--22533


6. 500 Kynoch Original Cordite Load #1 Pressure---45909 PSI--Velocity 2084 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--18250


7. 466 Brass BBW #13 #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 39172 PSI--Velocity 2141 fps

#2 Barrel Strain--20013


8. 500 Copper BBW #13 CEB #1 Pressure---Average Pressure 30029 PSI--Velocity 2142 FPS

#2 Barrel Strain--20265


Over the next few minutes I will be posted all the actual reports for you to look at.

Michael

quote:

Good afternoon Michael. I did in fact purchase a Chapuis double in .450-400 at the show and your folks gave me some .409’s that are no longer in production to try. However when I showed them to the guy I purchase the rifle from he told me that they were too hard, would ruin the accuracy, would imprint the rifling on the outside of the barrel, would cause too much pressure and finally would invalidate the warranty. I’m pretty sure that I read on your web site that your bullets would not harm modern doubles and I in fact want to see how they shoot in my double, but I certainly can’t afford to replace the double. Also, I have emailed Chapuis Armes and asked for their position on the matter, but have not gotten a reply. I did not mention any bullet makers name, just asked about monos. Have you any personal experience along these lines or do you know of anyone who does? I got the impression from the seller that since the barrels have to be regulated that they have a lower carbon steel hardness. May have that wrong, but he did mention steel hardness. It was good to meet you and chat. Thanks for your time, regards, Gene.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Do a search here about OSR. It's been discussed a BUNCH!
IIRC it was caused by the origional Barnes Mono's not the newer stuff such as CEB's.

quote:

Tradition is dead. RIP.

quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.

Michael's quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.


That isn't always true as it depends on what the construction of the bullets used. A 270 with Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX will cause less meat damage than a 458 with a CEB 300-400 grain noncom at 2,600 fps+.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.

Michael's quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.


That isn't always true as it depends on what the construction of the bullets used. A 270 with Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX will cause less meat damage than a 458 with a CEB 300-400 grain noncom at 2,600 fps+.

465H&H

As Cal said in one of his posts concerning a response to a question about shooting a deer with his 600NE (or was it a pig; don't remember but you get the point) and I'm paraphrasing here: "Some of us prefer to stay grounded in reality. There will simply be a hole of .620 diameter in the animal and that's it".

Good to see you are finally admitting the Non-Con to be a devastating bullet however.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.

Michael's quote:


That isn't always true as it depends on what the construction of the bullets used. A 270 with Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX will cause less meat damage than a 458 with a CEB 300-400 grain noncom at 2,600 fps+.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

"if you shoot a deer with that 458WM, there won't be anything left of him" when in fact there will be a simple .458 diameter or slightly larger hole and significantly LESS meat damage than if shot with a .270.

Michael's quote:


That isn't always true as it depends on what the construction of the bullets used. A 270 with Nosler Partitions or Barnes TSX will cause less meat damage than a 458 with a CEB 300-400 grain noncom at 2,600 fps+.

465H&H

Well, of course 465HH, you are correct to a point, it always depends on the bullet, no question about it. I don't remember exactly what the context of that quote or conversation was about, and can only defend it in general purpose terms.

I can say this as a pure fact however, deer that have been shot with any of the 458s, and the "NonComs" as you call them, actually Non-Con is proper, for Non-Conventional, but you know that already of course, just suppose that m is too close to the n on your keyboard. ---Oh, lost track there, let me get back on course--Deer shot with 458s and the noncons, there has never been one to escape that I am aware of!

Now as for deer, I don't shoot them, I don't hunt them, and don't give a rats ass about one. So for my purposes I would actually like to have a bullet that would blow them to complete pieces, much like a prairie dog by a fast moving 223 at close range--Red Mist--I might could get interested in hunting deer like that!

I don't know who would eat one of the nasty buggers anyway, just as soon eat a german shepherd myself!


HEH HEH...............


Matt, hmmmmm, rather unexpected, Thank you very much.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Not a lot more I can add to what Sam has reported above, except to say we both felt that .458 caliber was perfect for this test, as we had the most variety of bullets available, barrel available and I also used a 458 B&M to do 458 caliber barrel strains, so we had a 38000 to 44000 PSI load, depending on the bullet of course.

Sam also mentions that some of the old black powder guns were around .080 wall thickness, but did not mention that most modern rifles are around .100 or so, you may wish to measure your wall thickness just for comparison.

As Sam stated, most bullets we fired two rounds, there were a few that we only had one bullet to fire, but we fired them as well, and even at the end fired two rounds of full 65000 PSI 458 B&Ms loaded with 450 BBW#13 Solids.

Some photos of barrel and test work;







Just some extreme examples of some of the bullets;



And, the data we recorded from the measurements;



As you see there was NO CHANGE in the measurements of the barrel after firing these bullets. Some were pretty ugly, and some of these absolutely would score EXTREMELY high on the Barrel Strain Score! Some have been measured in barrel strain and gave very high readings.

Yet, no rifling has pushed through to the outside, and barrel has not expanded, and zero change in anything concerning the barrel to this point. OSR---????? Not yet!

Sam is turning the barrel down even thinner and we plan another test run next week. I think we will eventually get it thin enough to blow off the end, but at what point that will be--Who Knows??? And, I don't think there will ever be a barrel out there that will be as thin as where we are headed.

Modern Steel? Maybe.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
michael458
If you remember we had a PM conversation on OSR and I asked if you could run a test with a clean barrel and one that has been heavily oiled my thought was where does the oil go when a bullet passes through the barrel.
Once again thanks for all of your testing and more importantly a open mind

quote:

Do you need to borrow that trail camera picture of Bigfoot I posted awhile back?

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Do you need to borrow that trail camera picture of Bigfoot I posted awhile back?

I like Bigfoot, I think I saw him a time or two on the way back from having some Apple Pie? Pretty sure anyway!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Todd, I think you may be thinking of the solder joint splitting at the end of barrels not the barrels themselves splitting. This is because the barrel expand as bullet passes down the barrel and the thin walls at muzzle will expand enough to break the solder joint. I Gramme Wright's book the OSR photo shows the breech end blown out and the is probably because of pressure spike not OSR. I still think most of the problems caused in doubles has been because of filler use and not the bullets. This is my opinion from what I have seen in all our tests. I still don't like hard bullets because of pressure problems.

Sam

quote:

I still don't like hard bullets because of pressure problems

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:


I figure is you guys can’t bust the newly thinned wall barrel on you next shoot that you could push one or two oversize bullets down the tube to see if they’d do the trick. If that didn't do it then what would?

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:


I figure is you guys can’t bust the newly thinned wall barrel on you next shoot that you could push one or two oversize bullets down the tube to see if they’d do the trick. If that didn't do it then what would?

What would do the trick to produce OSR? My guess ... nothing!

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:


I figure is you guys can’t bust the newly thinned wall barrel on you next shoot that you could push one or two oversize bullets down the tube to see if they’d do the trick. If that didn't do it then what would?

What would do the trick to produce OSR? My guess ... nothing!

As evidenced by the many tests conducted by Ackley using bolt action military rifles of all manufacture - I agree!!!

But as with the many pressure tests that Michael and Sam have conducted relating to monometal bullets and DRs, why not put this one to the test as well?