quote:

I do think we have a problem with your set up even though your methodology was good. The reason being that the thin portion of the barrel is not the portion that receives the maximum pressure when firing a round. That would be the area directly in front of the chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Sam & Mike-

Well done, as always.

So now, for all the "believers", can we put this OSR fantasy to rest, please?

quote:

Well, Boys, thats about all I have to say on this subject, I believe this subject can come to an end on this thread and we can move on to the next project whatever that might be, right now I am building an interest in enhancing all double rifle cartridges by reducing weight of projectiles and increasing velocity and making a double rifle much more versatile than it has ever been before in history.......... How about we move towards that?

quote:

Whatever suits you and your buddy's agenda.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Whatever suits you and your buddy's agenda.

Shoothisdickoff

You finally got something right.

But unfortunately you are too stupid to even understand what you got right.

I do have an "Agenda".... Its true.... Everyone here has an agenda. Discounting you of course.

Our Agenda is Enhanced Bullet Performance..... This is Our Agenda, Mine, Sam's, Lionhunter, 505G, Todd, CCMDoc, Ledvm, pagosawingnut, Mike Brooks, Mjines, jorge, CrossL, Boomy, NE450#2, 465HH, Capoward, malek, Paul Truccolo, McKay, Zephyr, DoubleDon, and many others that have contributed and been involved in this thread..... and the many 100s of folks that watch, lurk, but never post. This is all of our Agenda, Enhance Bullet Performance that can be taken to the field, for all of us to be More SUCCESSFUL in all our endeavors in the field. This is OUR AGENDA.........

Now, I understand, that you cannot comprehend this thought, I understand that you are not capable of comprehension of this, and that is rather sad, for you. After all, I am sure there are plenty of reasons that you are a StupidAss, maybe your mom dropped you on your head when you were a baby, you may never even recall this, or any number of reasons that you have been inflicted with stupidity, that was totally out of your control. Purely the reason you are tolerated at all, we know you can't help being a StupidAss. Poor thing.



Oh I reckon that is about as much F**King sympathy as you will get from me, forever... LOL....

Idiot!

ENHANCED BULLET PERFORMANCE

In a few hours I am picking up John, From North Fork, at the airport. John is spending the weekend with us here. A good friend, and supporter of Enhanced Bullet Performance. Do not discount North Fork as well in this endeavor. North Fork is very supportive of our Agenda.

And Malek, I have worked with John at North Fork to develop an entire line of new 425 gr North Forks for the 475 B&Ms..... Which would fall right in place with discussions on the 500 Nitro thread, and this one, with enhanced Double Rifle performance. A 425 NF FPS, CPS, and Premium Soft point as well!!!!!!!!!!! I have them here. Lots of them........

Why its very possible that John and I will speak a LOT on this subject this weekend, of what we might come up with in some other calibers as well???? Hmmmmmm? Especially after much blueberry Moonshine!!!!!!!!!!!



Yes, George, I have an Agenda!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Brooks:
Not everything that exists can be replicated at will.
That fact alone doesn't eliminate the OSR.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

I do not doubt that some of those who say they have seen it actually have seen something but that does not include those that believe it only because they read about it in Wright's book - you listening Dave - as even Wright is unable to replicate the phenomena.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Gents:
I must confess I never looked at this post. My interest in double rifles is only English or Scottish pre war rifles. So, when I saw the title stating the bullet of the future I passed it by. However, tonight a gent called from the lower 48 asking my opinion on OSR. He is a friend, one whom I never see enough of nor ever will. The desert is too hot for me and I doubt he will move to sub zero winter temps. We have enough in common to keep a strong long distance friendship going and he has visited my home in Alaska and we hunted together in Australia in June of 2012. After I told him my experiences with OSR he warned me that I posted my information to prepare myself as this topic, like so many others on AR, has turned into a pissfest. Whatever the outcome, here goes:

For years I thought the myth of OSR was just that, a myth. The stories I heard of it were evidence to the nonsense: of rifling being pushed to the outside of the barrel, of a severe case where the bore was now smooth (like a shotgun) with the rifling now on the outside of the barrel, and the best one was an urban legend told me by a gent in the south. He actually saw the rifling lands pushed out of the muzzle by a monometal bullet shot in a vintage double. To put it politely, “horse shit” I thought. I wrote of my disbelief of OSR in a well known publication and on my web site.

One fella who has wrote of OSR is Graeme Wright of Australia, the author of the best book on double rifles, Shooting the British Double Rifle. When I bought the first edition of Graeme’s work I wrote him with my experiences with IMR 4198 and suggested he include it in future editions in the chapter of black powder express rifles. Long story short, Graeme was an international pilot who stopped in Anchorage for fuel between the Orient and the east coast of the US. We visited often, rode in my ‘69 Corvette, and shot a few doubles. In fact, some of the ballistic work in volume 3 was shot at my Alaska home with some of my rifles.

At an SCI convention a few years ago Graeme asked me to accompany him to see an example of OSR. At a table he handed me a gent’s rifle. It was a pre war .450-400, three inch case I believe, and I was asked to examine the rifle for OSR. I did so and could not see anything. I was then instructed to open the rifle and look down the bores while holding the rifle to the ceiling lights. I did and did not see anything. Then he asked me to look down the exterior of the barrels as the light was reflected on the surface. I could have been knocked over with a feather! There is was. For lack of a better term, shadows of the rifling was seen in the reflected light. Looking down the bore and back to the exterior several times there was no doubt what I was seeing.

Let me interject here Graeme is a fine and honest man. His writings show his logic and common sense, and his conclusions are based on experimentation, not emotion, and what he stated to me in the past was based on the above. I had to see it to believe it. I did see it and I do believe it.

The man who owned the rifle was very angry with Barnes bullets as, he relayed to me, their attitude was standoffish and refused to accept the damage to his fine rifle was caused by their bullets.

I went to Barnes and spoke of the subject. I also came away with a few boxes of Barnes Banded Solids to try in my beloved vintage .600 by John Wilkes, completed in April of 1914. I will get to my shooting shortly. First is the question of why OSR happens. There is no doubt it occurs, but why? Here is my theory. Now I don’t have as much hunting experience as many or most of you but I do have a bit of experience with doubles and shooting and researching them. OSR is due to one or more of the following:

1. Soft steel in old barrels
2. Perhaps thin barrel walls
3. Very hard bullet material
4. Bullets with no for few bands for rifling-displaced metal to flow
5. Bullets shot at too high velocity and/or too high pressure
and the big one:
6. Bullet with too large of a diameter for the bore.

Since I doubt anyone will use a vintage and expensive doubles to experiment with the jury will most likely be out forever. For those that say OSR is nonexistent they are, from what I have seen, wrong. Now I still have not read this entire post but if a barrel or bullet maker is stating OSR is a fallacy, and their economic status is based on selling a product, I would be a bit suspect. Rather than the name calling and attacks that are so prevalent here the facts speak for themselves. OSR is alive and well but the causes are still (and will continue to) be debated. From my experience with double rifles a combination of the above six factors are the key to the answer. OSR is also quite uncommon. There are not that many who have had the unfortunate experience to shoot monometal bullets in their old double.

When I shot the Barnes Banded Solids in my .600 I was confident there would be no problem. The bullets were .002 undersize, the many bands allowed metal to flow when it was cut my the rifling, and I began with a slow velocity and worked up to the factory regulated velocity of 1900 fps. OSR would not happen in my rifle as the bullets were the correct size and shot to the correct velocity.

Cheers all,
Cal

PS. I just sold a Winchester extra light weight, deluxe, .45-70 with a pencil thin barrel. Even more thin than the standard extra light barrels. With (for the time) nickel steel barrels and soft jacketed bullets (or lead) OSR was not a problem. However, I did notice the rifling was very shallow. I would guess .002”. Did Winchester, in 1902, purposely build such thin barrels with shallow rifling to avoid such a problem such as OSR? Could OSR occurred in such a thin barrel with rifling of a standard depth? Just a thought to ponder.....

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,OSR does not have to occur before a bore and its rifling is harmed.A bore needs to be treated right.I now make sure I clean my rifles right after I get back from the shooting range and they are still warm.I am also trying to avoid the copper brush as much as possible.I would rather deal with powder and carbon-copper fouling when it is still fresh and has not yet hardened.Anything hard or rock like going through the bore up against the lands is not a good idea,IMO especially if you want a long lasting accurate barrel.My longest lasting big bore barrel has shot A-frames exclusively. I like that soft sticky pure copper riding on my land instead of anything rock hard and unproven.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Barnes bullets are hard like a rock and do not compress.It is one thing for the harmless jacket to foul and another thing for a hard non compressible bullet to go down the bore.

quote:

I must confess I never looked at this post. My interest in double rifles is only English or Scottish pre war rifles. So, when I saw the title stating the bullet of the future I passed it by.

quote:

Now I still have not read this entire post but if a barrel or bullet maker is stating OSR is a fallacy, and their economic status is based on selling a product, I would be a bit suspect