Personally, I've lost two animals. First one was a rear quartering shot with a 270 and the then-new 140 gr Hornady boat tail. I was still-hunting and took a sitting shot. It was a big axis near Medina about 1989. The deer took off on what I thought was an uphill track. I followed for about a half hour and decided quickly that I needed a deer dog fast. It was getting dark and with no exit wound, the blood was non-existent past the point of impact.

So I go to the rancher's house; no one home and I load up the Golden Lab he always has around and off we go...for three hours I follow this lab up and down the Texas Hill Country, in the dark, his nose up and down and howling like a banshee. I finally can't take anymore and go back to the house to return the dog. The landowner asks what I was doing and I tell my tale of woe. He kinda shook his head and in that scolding way only older folks can pull off, and says "Wrong dog." By mid morning the next day, buzzards were up and we found it about 70 yards down the draw, not up the hill. I lost the meat but the shot was good. I just didn't have the experience to be a good tracker.

After that I stepped up to a 338-06 'cause I wanted an exit. Fast forward some years to 1998. I am walking down a ranch road with my buddy on his place in South Texas. It's deer season and we stayed out in blinds until about 11AM and were walking back to camp, talking in normal tones, not hunting. We round a bend and damn if there isn't a 14 pt buck standing in the road about 90 yds out staring at us with that fight-or-flight body language beginning to spool up.

My friend hisses "Shoot him" between his teeth and I drop to a sitting position while unslinging my rifle. I get down, get in position and damn if my scope caps aren't screwed on! I had a new Nightforce that year and they have very fine-thread screw-on caps front and rear. They don't come off quickly or quietly. Now I have to lower the gun, staring at this deer that's watching me in the middle of a road, sittin' on my ass with NO cover and grass about an inch high for yards around us.

All the while, my buddy is frozen, can't see what I'm doing and hissing "shoot! shoot!" in the loudest whisper he can. Each time I hear the word "shoot" I can hear the frustration level rising in him.

So I get back to the shooting position, scope clear but by now you can imagine enough time has passed that adrenaline is no longer my friend. I'm getting shakey and a bit of buck fever over this nice 14 point buck. For whatever reason it is still watching us head-on. At the shot he tumbled, got up and bolted into an oak mott. We found hair but no heavy blood. We tracked him in the sand as far as we could and called friends at camp to come help. Short story, I pulled the shot to the right and the buck had time to run to another part of the ranch and die. I found him 48 hours later.

So those are my two failures as a hunter and a big part now of why I like to see DRT with head and neck shots. Ironically, I would have passed on both deer if all I had was my .223. I have not shot a ton of game since 1998 but I haven't missed a shot at a noble game animal since. I have sent a few Hail-Mary shots downrange at distant or running coyotes over the years but I consider that a different matter altogether.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Personally, I've lost two animals. *****I have sent a few Hail-Mary shots downrange at distant or running coyotes over the years but I consider that a different matter altogether.

Nicely written.Gutsie stories. roger

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
ull Shit, it is about shot placement, If The Shot Is Placed Where It Is Supposed To Go, ...

And from being around a few thousand Hunters, it does not always go where the Annie Oakley's and Dead-Eye-Dingle's think the Bullets are going. Pick the wrong shot placement, let a wind gust ease by, a touch of Buck Fever, Peer Pressure if their buddies hear a miss, Inadequate Cartridge with the wrong Bullet, having the Game move quickly without notice, and "attempted" shot placement dosen't mean spit.

we all make mistakes. I shot one and lost it once myself with a .270Win/130 grain factory powerpoints. Now a days I mostly use a different scope brand however whose erector system seems to be more reliable.

quote:

“A hunter should not choose the caliber, cartridge and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong.” is one way to look at it, I look at it as "A hunter should be cognizant of the limitations of the situation and his equipment and often should choose not to shoot at all or endeavor for a better position to shoot from, passing on shooting at all if the circumstances seem iffy, but then I'm not the sort to be disappointed if I don't kill something every day I'm in the field."

Should be required reading and sums up better what I was thinking but not perhaps expressing. I take a gun that will get the job done in all situations. Years ago, my German friends handed me a 300 Win Mag the first time I was a guest. Now I knew I was purposely being "over gunned" just in case my shooting at targets wasn't indicative of my skill when the adrenaline was flowing.

Two hours into the hunt, I had a young red stag (the word in German is "Kniepe"--Gerry, bitte korregieren wenn noetig) run past my stand from the right, quartering into my field of fire at about 80 yards. With a 6.5 or even 7 x 57, I wouldn't have taken that shot. Probably could have killed it, but a much better chance that there would have been a long blood track with the dog and a missed evening dinner. After the 300 Win Mag barked, the young stag crashed in a heap not 20 yds from point of impact. 180 grains went through the rear left quarter, entered the rib cage at the loin and broke the front right leg. Gutting the animal on site, I found much of the gut and right side chest contents had been reduced to jelly.

Under gunned, I don't think you make that shot. Minimally gunned you don't even think about it. The few days I do go afield, I don't want to have to think if I'm taking a responsible shot if (ever!!) a trophy appeared in my scope.

quote:

Originally posted by JonP:

quote:

“A hunter should not choose the caliber, cartridge and bullet that will kill an animal when everything is right; rather, he should choose ones that will kill the most efficiently when everything goes wrong.” is one way to look at it, I look at it as "A hunter should be cognizant of the limitations of the situation and his equipment and often should choose not to shoot at all or endeavor for a better position to shoot from, passing on shooting at all if the circumstances seem iffy, but then I'm not the sort to be disappointed if I don't kill something every day I'm in the field."

Should be required reading and sums up better what I was thinking but not perhaps expressing. I take a gun that will get the job done in all situations. Years ago, my German friends handed me a 300 Win Mag the first time I was a guest. Now I knew I was purposely being "over gunned" just in case my shooting at targets wasn't indicative of my skill when the adrenaline was flowing.

Two hours into the hunt, I had a young red stag (the word in German is "Kniepe"--Gerry, bitte korregieren wenn noetig) run past my stand from the right, quartering into my field of fire at about 80 yards. With a 6.5 or even 7 x 57, I wouldn't have taken that shot. Probably could have killed it, but a much better chance that there would have been a long blood track with the dog and a missed evening dinner. After the 300 Win Mag barked, the young stag crashed in a heap not 20 yds from point of impact. 180 grains went through the rear left quarter, entered the rib cage at the loin and broke the front right leg. Gutting the animal on site, I found much of the gut and right side chest contents had been reduced to jelly.

Under gunned, I don't think you make that shot. Minimally gunned you don't even think about it. The few days I do go afield, I don't want to have to think if I'm taking a responsible shot if (ever!!) a trophy appeared in my scope.

Tiggertate,

Thanks for the stories, they gave me an insight about you. You sound like someone I could get along with. We would have fun in hunting camp. But I would have beat you like a “red headed step child” for leaving camp with a rifle that wasn’t ready to shoulder and fire.

You use the 223 to limit yourself. You know the limitations of the 223 but you never learned the limitations of yourself with your other rifles and their limitations.

I’m sure that if you had a second try at it, things would have been different. But there is no instant replay in hunting. Move on and learn from your failures. Stop using a 22 to limit yourself.

And I thought I was out of this topic. Damn!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Tiggertate,

Thanks for the stories, they gave me an insight about you. You sound like someone I could get along with. We would have fun in hunting camp. But I would have beat tried to beat you like a “red headed step child” I'm old, not dead.
for leaving camp with a rifle that wasn’t ready to shoulder and fire.

The gun was ready, I had screwed on the caps when my buddy and I started walking home. We normally don't see deer that late in the morning so we were just enjoying the walk and the conversation.
You use the 223 to limit yourself. You know the limitations of the 223 but you never learned the limitations of yourself with your other rifles and their limitations. Huh? I think I just explained my lessons.
I’m sure that if you had a second try at it, things would have been different. But there is no instant replay in hunting. Move on and learn from your failures. Stop using a 22 to limit yourself.

Well, I understand the point but asking me to do that would be the same as asking an archery fan to quit limiting himself, or asking a dedicated bill fisherman to quit using artificial bait. It just don't work that way. But I'm sure over a warm camp fire and a beer or two we could continue the conversation without me having to
bitch-slap you into place.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Tiggertate,

Thanks for the stories, they gave me an insight about you. You sound like someone I could get along with. We would have fun in hunting camp. But I would have beat tried to beat you like a “red headed step child” I'm old, not dead.
for leaving camp with a rifle that wasn’t ready to shoulder and fire.

The gun was ready, I had screwed on the caps when my buddy and I started walking home. We normally don't see deer that late in the morning so we were just enjoying the walk and the conversation.
You use the 223 to limit yourself. You know the limitations of the 223 but you never learned the limitations of yourself with your other rifles and their limitations. Huh? I think I just explained my lessons.
I’m sure that if you had a second try at it, things would have been different. But there is no instant replay in hunting. Move on and learn from your failures. Stop using a 22 to limit yourself.

Well, I understand the point but asking me to do that would be the same as asking an archery fan to quit limiting himself, or asking a dedicated bill fisherman to quit using artificial bait. It just don't work that way. But I'm sure over a warm camp fire and a beer or two we could continue the conversation without me having to
bitch-slap you into place.

LOL, we would get along.

Its good when someone gets it.

Throw those caps away. Real men don’t need caps.

I tried that. Too much dust for a lazy housekeeper like me. I switched to a different scope with flip up caps!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MickinColo:
Tiggertate,

It just don't work that way. But I'm sure over a warm camp fire and a beer or two we could continue the conversation without me having to
bitch-slap you into place.

Tee hee! you might learn not to screw with old men. Remember a morning when the self appointed king of the camp got on his horse and someone had put something under his saddle blanket. He really wasn't a rodeo star; not for long anyway.roger

And from being around a few thousand Hunters, it does not always go where the Annie Oakley's and Dead-Eye-Dingle's think the Bullets are going. Pick the wrong shot placement, let a wind gust ease by, a touch of Buck Fever, Peer Pressure if their buddies hear a miss, Inadequate Cartridge with the wrong Bullet, having the Game move quickly without notice, and "attempted" shot placement dosen't mean spit.

And that comes down to maturity and knowing whether to take the shot or not and does not have one damn thing to do with bullet placement.

If a person, ANY person works with in the limit of their abilities and properly places the bullet where it should go they will kill the animal.

Making The God Damn Choice To Take A Piss Poor Shot Has Nothing To Do With Proper Bullet Placement, It Has To Do With Making The Decision Of Taking A Shot Or Passing On It.

Even a poorly taken shot, if properly placed can and will kill an animal and the person making it does not learn one damn thing.

Blind hogs find enough acorns to stay fat.

If a person makes a BAD SHOT CHOICE BUT KILLS THE ANIMAL HOW THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO KNOW THEY WERE WRONG?????

Care to answer that?

quote:

You know the limitations of the 223 but you never learned the limitations of yourself with your other rifles and their limitations.

Yeah...right...you don't learn the limitations of you or your rifle on game. You hunt to end it quickly... put game on the ground in a heap...at point of impact when possible. Hunting isn't about discovering YOUR limitations...you know those before you go.
I know mine..like I said at the beginning..killing rhinos with a zip gun is about sport...not hunting.

Killing rhino's with a zip gun?




Too much

Terry

223 For Whitetail = 296 posts.

Capstick Was A Fraud = 204 posts.

By Gawd I Think We Have A Clear Winner With This One?

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:
If a person makes a BAD SHOT CHOICE BUT KILLS THE ANIMAL HOW THE HELL ARE THEY GOING TO KNOW THEY WERE WRONG????? Care to answer that?

Excellent question. We used Peer Pressure and education with a Decoy to explain why things often go bad. If it appeared the Hunter still didn't get it, three of us discussed the situation and the majority ruled if the person in question came back on the properties.

We simply had enough Deer to track when everything went correctly without needing to expand the tracking duties because of poor Cartridge choices or intentionally selecting poor Shot Placement locations.

The more people you are around that Hunt, the easier it is to read them. The blow-hard braggarts are usually even worse than the know-nothings like teanScum.

OK from now on I am hunting with an AR-15, with 30 rounds of 62 grain TSX bullets loaded over 24 grains of Ramshot TAC, I will just start shooting until things stop moving then will plug it a few more times just to be sure.

this is about in keeping with the rest of this BS thread but glad to contribute so it can be 297 or more posts!!

Also on head shots I don't like them, even at close range if the animal moves its head like bending down to eat something you have a problem, like half a head but also a half dead animal, and I did this once a long time ago, it took a long time for the animal to die and the theatrics did not intrigue me, so I don't anymore. Of course should you chose to do so its your business as I am NOT a democrat and will not dictate to anyone at anytime how they hunt, nor will I try to tell them what caliber to use!!!

I welcome all as fellow hunters and shooters except those that try to control the lives of the ones they don't agree with!

I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

Redemption finally. I knew if it went long enough some redeeming quality would emerge. Now we are all a lot more informed. Of course you should choose whatever caliber you want to hunt deer, if it's legal, and you will find plenty of support here for using the cartridge of your choice.
KB

quote:

I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

That sums up almost every discussion I have been party to on AR!!!

Personally...I shot my first pick-up load of deer with a .22 Hornet.

God Bless us, each and every one of us.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

That’s funny . You don’t see a pattern around here do you? ........

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

I think that was clever. But it didn't add anything real to the debate.

That would make you another useless smartass. The world is full of useless smartasses; I've had fun firing several dozens over the years. But OTOH, if you get really good at it, there is a fortune waiting for you on late night TV.

Whoa triggertate. Did they take your hall monitor badge away from you? Useful contributions to this thread stopped a long time ago.

The best cartridge choice depends on whether it's after dark and there is a light involved.

signed: unrepentant smartass.

Now THAT I can agree with. I'm pissed at my adult kids right now so my frame of mind isn't the best. But I recognize smartass better than most for the same reason!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I'm pissed at my adult kids right now so my frame of mind isn't the best.

i KNOW that feeling... 29, 26, and 23 yers old, from time to time FORGET that they left home to run their own show

but the 223 i am shooting, i bought for them 15 years ago

quote:

I'm pissed at my adult kids right now

I can understand that. One is 38 and the other one is 32. In the last few years the two of them figured out what they want to do when they grow up.

tiggertate,
Nice how you show your past power over others and your need for us to know you have had the authority to "fire" subordinates. And lets see you need a really big gun...you know what THEY say, "The bigger the gun the smaller the shoes." You have small feet don't you tiggertate? And a BIG truck, just a guess. Kudos on spotting the smartass in my post as well. You have a rare gift as I had disguised it so well. If you are unable to spot it this time, now I'm just being an ass. Besides ANYBODY that has shot three gophers knows it is where the hole is not the size of the hole that kills. A poor shooter with a .223 is a worse shooter with an 06'. OK, you can go back to running your world now.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
tiggertate,
Nice how you show your past power over others and your need for us to know you have had the authority to "fire" subordinates. And lets see you need a really big gun...you know what THEY say, "The bigger the gun the smaller the shoes." You have small feet don't you tiggertate? And a BIG truck, just a guess. Kudos on spotting the smartass in my post as well. You have a rare gift as I had disguised it so well. If you are unable to spot it this time, now I'm just being an ass. Besides ANYBODY that has shot three gophers knows it is where the hole is not the size of the hole that kills. A poor shooter with a .223 is a worse shooter with an 06'. OK, you can go back to running your world now.

lmao, you can't be more wrong about tigger ... he's a great guy, and drives a compact chevy


but inferred "little dick jokes" tell more about the joker .. why are you interested in other guy's junk?

pretty dumb line of insults, but you did choose it

Yeah it is a dumb line that's kinda the point. If he can be 12 years old I feel obliged to be the useless smartass 12 year old and prove him right. I had picked up a hint of sarcasm in his comment and figured as such he would pick up the same in mine. I wouldn't joke about that sort of stuff unless I thought the guy had a sense of humor.
So tiggertate if you are offended, I appologize, I don't you you from Adam just shootin back. If you are not offended, I'm glad you see there are still a few people with some hide left in this country.

If people didn’t see the humor in your post, they’ll just need to get over it. I saw the humor. How is it that a poor shooter with a 30-06 is not a worse shooter with a 223? Just a question, I pulled my dog out of this fight a few pages back. I'm Just curious is all. There is no right or wrong answer.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

Thank you!! Great post. And Welcome Aboard.

I feel sure tigertate took all of those positions within the thread.

Hey tiggertate, Rumor has it that young'uns can toss some "stress" in the parents direction. One of the real Tests most of must face from time to time. Surely you don't have teanScum in your list of stress inducers? I could see where that would be horrible.
-----

Hey Mic, I was just wondering this morning if this thread was good for 12-15 pages.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
I appologize, ...

Boo-Hiss!! I don't see why you should ever apologize for defending yourself. And for darn sure not apologizing for a funny post.

If you want to get on jeffe's good side, you can make jokes about what kind of man it takes to use a "Lead Sled".

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
tiggertate,
Nice how you show your past power over others and your need for us to know you have had the authority to "fire" subordinates. And lets see you need a really big gun...you know what THEY say, "The bigger the gun the smaller the shoes." You have small feet don't you tiggertate? And a BIG truck, just a guess. Kudos on spotting the smartass in my post as well. You have a rare gift as I had disguised it so well. If you are unable to spot it this time, now I'm just being an ass. Besides ANYBODY that has shot three gophers knows it is where the hole is not the size of the hole that kills. A poor shooter with a .223 is a worse shooter with an 06'. OK, you can go back to running your world now.

The reference to firing smartasses was about them, not me or my power. But that was probably said wrong anyway. And I took your post too seriously. So I'm sorry for the aggressive nature of mine as well. As to the size of my equipment, well, I don't know if or how long you've been married but the value of size equals the inverse of elapsed time as expressed in years of marriage. So after 30 years it's a non-issue for me. Jeffe, I know an Impala ain't what it used to be but "compact"? Oh well, times do change.

quote:

I'm relatively new here, but I think I've got it:
The 223 is enough gun, but not really, but the swede is ok for a ways, but the 300 Win or 338-06 is always spot on, unless you can really shoot, then the .22lr is ok as long it's a head shot, but head shots are not really recommended, so one should choose the 270WCF unless of course he is using the old silver tips or of course the unpredictable ballistic tip. So the only logical choice is still the 30-06 unless it proves to be too much recoil for kids and women to shoot strait in which case a .243 is ok...as long as you are a woman a child or a senior citizen with bad shoulders. And of course none work well with opaque lens covers left in place while shooting. Do not worry about me I have learned my lesson(s)and am now wise in the ways of deer cartidge selection!! So what do you guys think I should use?

Quintus,
One of the best posts I have ever seen on AR and certainly sums up how most of the arguments go here. It was obviously meant to be funny and anyone that could NOT figure that out...well...!!!

Excellent, and thank you for the welcome Gents. For a minute I thought y'all might not be the gun crowd I fit with. I love to read these chicken or the egg topics, but the whole site is full of GOOD information too. tiggertate I have been married long enough to understand, I just have a tendancy when attacked to try to locate, close with, and destroy. I'm geussing you may understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Quintus:
Excellent, and thank you for the welcome Gents. For a minute I thought y'all might not be the gun crowd I fit with. I love to read these chicken or the egg topics, but the whole site is full of GOOD information too. tiggertate I have been married long enough to understand, I just have a tendancy when attacked to try to locate, close with, and destroy. I'm geussing you may understand.

Sure I do. I'm the same way and unfortunately last night I was in the wrong mood to understand your post correctly. My fault.