Well, I didn't respond because it had nothing to do with the question at hand. The thing is, it would prove nothing. If I would have answered the question you would have come back with a "gottcha." On the other hand I could have come up with a completely different scenario that favored the cartridge perfectly. Likewise it would have proved nothing either.

The cartridge has it's limitations. Big deal, they all do. A good hunter works around those or passes on the shot, the same way a hunter with a larger gun does at longer distances.

It seems like the guy's that don't think it works keep coming up with "situations" were it won't work. The guy's that know it does use it to their advantage and put themselves in situations where it does. I hate to break this to the nahsayers but it's been done too many times with success to say it won't work. Some folks won't use anything but a bow all year long, some folks hunt with handguns and some use smallbore centerfire rifles. With the right preparation and the right frame of mind these are all very lethal when it comes to hunting whitetail deer. the proper bullets and accurate shot placement have proven this to be a fine round for deer.

I've got a nice little patch of woods about 5 miles from the house. It's full of deer and it's a great place to waste an afternoon. It's nothing to see 10-20 deer in an afternoon. If I don't shoot, I don't care. They'll be there the next time I go. My .223 will be there this year loaded TSX's over a stout load of Ramshot TAC powder. When the time is right the deer will fall.

As far as me getting back into it. look at what got me back in it, look at his last post. What a no class act. I'm done with him though.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well, I didn't respond because it had nothing to do with the question at hand. The thing is, it would prove nothing. If I would have answered the question you would have come back with a "gottcha." On the other hand I could have come up with a completely different scenario that favored the cartridge perfectly. Likewise it would have proved nothing either.

The cartridge has it's limitations. Big deal, they all do. A good hunter works around those or passes on the shot, the same way a hunter with a larger gun does at longer distances.

It seems like the guy's that don't think it works keep coming up with "situations" were it won't work. The guy's that know it does use it to their advantage and put themselves in situations where it does. I hate to break this to the nahsayers but it's been done too many times with success to say it won't work. Some folks won't use anything but a bow all year long, some folks hunt with handguns and some use smallbore centerfire rifles. With the right preparation and the right frame of mind these are all very lethal when it comes to hunting whitetail deer. the proper bullets and accurate shot placement have proven this to be a fine round for deer.

I've got a nice little patch of woods about 5 miles from the house. It's full of deer and it's a great place to waste an afternoon. It's nothing to see 10-20 deer in an afternoon. If I don't shoot, I don't care. They'll be there the next time I go. My .223 will be there this year loaded TSX's over a stout load of Ramshot TAC powder. When the time is right the deer will fall.

As far as me getting back into it. look at what got me back in it, look at his last post. What a no class act. I'm done with him though.

Terry

You’re letting people get to you. Let us move on, there are better fights to be fought somewhere else. It’s getting boring around here.

TC1,
I think that most of the posts in this discussion don't go too far away from agreement with your last post, including mine, when you really sort it out, objectively.

The problem as I see it falls right in with your last sentence. Your post would have been perfect without it, but you and many others can't seem to help yourself. Fact is, following the thread, my last post wasn't what got you back into it.

As I said, I can't think of anything you can say or do on this forum which would cause me to take on the baggage of a grudge with you or anyone here. If you want a grudge, it's yours alone. Cherish it.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well, I didn't respond because it had nothing to do with the question at hand. The thing is, it would prove nothing. If I would have answered the question you would have come back with a "gottcha." On the other hand I could have come up with a completely different scenario that favored the cartridge perfectly. Likewise it would have proved nothing either.

The cartridge has it's limitations. Big deal, they all do. A good hunter works around those or passes on the shot, the same way a hunter with a larger gun does at longer distances.

It seems like the guy's that don't think it works keep coming up with "situations" were it won't work. The guy's that know it does use it to their advantage and put themselves in situations where it does. I hate to break this to the nahsayers but it's been done too many times with success to say it won't work. Some folks won't use anything but a bow all year long, some folks hunt with handguns and some use smallbore centerfire rifles. With the right preparation and the right frame of mind these are all very lethal when it comes to hunting whitetail deer. the proper bullets and accurate shot placement have proven this to be a fine round for deer.

I've got a nice little patch of woods about 5 miles from the house. It's full of deer and it's a great place to waste an afternoon. It's nothing to see 10-20 deer in an afternoon. If I don't shoot, I don't care. They'll be there the next time I go. My .223 will be there this year loaded TSX's over a stout load of Ramshot TAC powder. When the time is right the deer will fall.

As far as me getting back into it. look at what got me back in it, look at his last post. What a no class act. I'm done with him though.

Terry

You’re letting people get to you. Let us move on, there are better fights to be fought somewhere else. It’s getting boring around here.

Trust me, nothing that happens here has any bearing on what kind of day I'm having. Sometimes you just have to take out the trash.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Jimmy,

What is the twist in your two rifles? 1-9 and 1-8?

Mind sharing your loading data w us and velocity/barrel length of your two rifles?

Thanks, Andy

My Noveske is 1-7, it shoots 62 grain TSX bullets fairly well about an inch with a 4X scope, the 1-9 rifle I do not hunt with any longer.

This year I will probably hunt with my .257 Roberts.

As a personal note to Kabluey my reaction is to quote the bard "methinks thy protest too much". So in your case where buck fever resulted in several misses you try to extrapolate your personal shortcomings and shortfalls onto other more skilled men. Try to get a grip on yourself man! There are 12 year old children that hunt with a .223 and it works wonderfully for them, your personal failure to perform has nothing to do with someone else's abilities!

Here's a message to whom it applies. I'm sure you have heard the saying about opinions being like ass holes, everyone has one. Well lots of opinions, and grudges too are like having multiple ass holes. You might say I have no high ground, and cherish my opinion too, and you would not be accurate. I cherish the priviledge to express it, without having to endure some A.H.'s personal attack.

Once I heard a whore say that if she had a dick on her for every one she had in her, she would look like a procupine. Well, for some of you guys, if you had a hole for every opinion you cherish, you would look like a big ugly brown sponge, the exact opposite of the mental image that whore gave.

How's that for an insult? Does that measure up to your standards on this forum? I think someone should start a thread specifically to see who can render the best and most scathing personal insult. Oh, maybe this is the one.

Jimmy, I agree about the thou doth protest too much, and other respects too. However, protesting ain't what I'm up to. I've made up my mind some time ago when I got too deep in this, that in a war of words, I ain't gonna back down, and I ain't gonna take it personal. If it becomes more serious than mere words, that's different, and I'll quit immediately. I have fought many many battles with words, however I would rather not be argumentative for the sake of argument. I would rather discuss and debate like gentelmen. The problem is that too many on this forum seem to believe that the way to win an argument is to make it personal. I'm here for the duration.

Now you know why I tried to warn TC1 about getting into this farce, and I have a lot of respect for him despite his stance and insults. IMO, anyone who engages in this who lets it get to him, and becomes emotional in any way, and resorts to personal insults, is in jeprody of losing the argument, or at least defeating the core of the discussion.

That's the way I see it.

KB

I admire your tenacity .

What a tool.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Culling deer at a commercial hunting ranch does not qualify a weapon as adequate for hunting. In Texas spike bucks and does don't normally weigh 75 pounds soaking wet. They are hunted from an elevated box blind, by spreading corn on the ground, not over 50 yards away. The deer are 3/4 tame anyway, because of being enclosed behind a high fence and fed all their lives. Our hero then pops one, broadside at 45 yards, and then promptly turns on his computer and expounds on his great prowess as a hunter. Even when hunting on low-fence deer leases the use of elevated box blinds and corn for bait is the normal hunting method. Under these conditions a .22 magnum is entirely adequate.

Thanks for filling me in on how things our done on Texas ranches. I've only been here since 1974. BTW, nobody uses .22 mag, that's an evil rumour, as .22 mag would be an illegal rimfire like some of the .17s that nobody uses either. None are ever culled out of season either.

Your description of "hero" also fits about 80% of the out of state paying hunters that hunt over feeders as well as the techniques of a fair number of bow hunters.


Not sure who your computer hero is, as it ain't me. If you were trying to be insulting, you managed to insult pretty well most guest hunters we see but you didn't touch me.

Regards and happy noble pursuit of game! I just shoot em and eat em if the opportunity is there. bout as exciting as nutting pigs.

When you have a movie done of you dueling a Whitetail buck to the death with antlers strapped to your head and gore him to death with your antlers, I'll consider you to have engaged in a fair hunt. If you use weapons of any sort to defeat the mighty Whitetail, it's just varying degrees of meat harvesting with varying degrees of success. That's why sanctimonious people are so much fun to poke fun of.

Keep it up, I enjoy the laughs. Like a buddy in Messina says, "if there isn't a chance the quarry might kill you it's not very interesting hunting, it's just harvesting, nothing to brag about".

Well said. Too much made up BS on this thread. I trust the guys with the dead animals.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well said. Too much made up BS on this thread. I trust the guys with the dead animals.

Terry

Terry, you gotta relax and enjoy the BS. That's part of it, really, and it's inevitable. To expect otherwise, I can understand your frustration. You want pictures of dead animals? I've got lots of those. Posting pictures is not easy here, but if that's what you want in order to give credability to someone who is not your foe, I'll do it.

Best regards,
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well said. Too much made up BS on this thread. I trust the guys with the dead animals.

Terry

Terry, you gotta relax and enjoy the BS. That's part of it, really, and it's inevitable. To expect otherwise, I can understand your frustration. You want pictures of dead animals? I've got lots of those. Posting pictures is not easy here, but if that's what you want in order to give credability to someone who is not your foe, I'll do it.

Best regards,
KB

Who's frustrated? We've proven several things here. It's been shown you don't know what you're talking about. It's been shown you've formed your opinions from TV shows that weren't even about hunting and you have no real experience with the subject at hand. It's been shown you're a light weight with little real life experience. No emotion to that. It's been shown that you've been bested at every turn, proven a fool and you've done nothing but troll on page 6 because you know you're on the losing side of this argument. When backed into a corner you had no defense but to call me and others liars. You tried to make light of it but, I do take personal offence to that as most people with any self respect would. I'm sure you can't comprehend that for obvious reasons. I do understand though, when you've got no game you have to do something. One thing this thread has done is show you for what you are. Now who's frustrated here? Not me, I'm relaxed.

I did call you a no class piece of shit. But it's just an opinion I've formed of you. You took it as anger, but it was just an observation on my part. It's the Internet, enjoy.

Now please, tell us more of how a .223 can't kill deer. I've enjoyed this so far. Anything good on TV last night to back up your points? You're good for a laugh, I'll give you that. Sometimes I do show little patience with fools, others times I do. So please, tell us more about why we shouldn't hunt deer with a .223, that's what this is about, not you, not me. You have yet to make a valid point on the subject at hand. Of course you'll never be able to because you have no experience hunting with the round.


Terry

In you dreams. Wow. Just goes to show again that a guy with the best walnut doesn't necessarily make him a class act in all respects.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
In you dreams. Wow. Just goes to show again that a guy with the best walnut doesn't necessarily make him a class act in all respects.

KB

Ah but Kabluewy, you gotta relax and enjoy the BS, right? That's part of it.

Exactly. You sure caught on quick. The real question is having/buying nice walnut make the 223 a better deer rifle, you know, more powerful, accurate, etc? Or is it that nice walnut just buys the owner more credability in a pissing contest? Is that the way it works on this forum? If so, I've already lost this pissing match.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Exactly. You sure caught on quick. The real question is having/buying nice walnut make the 223 a better deer rifle, you know, more powerful, accurate, etc? Or is it that nice walnut just buys the owner more credability in a pissing contest? Is that the way it works on this forum? If so, I've already lost this pissing match.

KB

Walnut?

You lost because you don't have a clue about what you're talking about.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Walnut?

You lost because you don't have clue about what you're talking about.

Terry

Oh, excuse me, I meant to say Walmart lumber. Heck, I think you have a real talent in making good looking stocks from salvaged lumber off those Walmart pallets.

My point is of course that you don't win, unless your goal was to turn this into a pissing and bullshit contest. You certainly win in that regard, because debate and discussion on the core issue is over for me in this arena. Besides, I was thinking this wasn't about winning or losing, but about discussion and debate. Excuse me for not understanding the rules.

Everyone already knows where I stand on the issue. I've said it to the best of my ability, and there is no reason that I see to keep repeating myself. If disagreeing with you, to whatever degree which isn't yet real clear, and not having nice walnut stocks makes me low class white trash in your view, that's entirely your baggage, but I see no excuse in you feeling the need to say that was your view. If you want discussion respect is important, if you want pissing match insult and disrespect is a good clue of real motives.

The differences in my bullshit and your bullshit is that you don't know the difference in it and fact, and you actually believe yours, and you think others believe it too.

KB

Dang, I missed all the fun. And I thought the guy who said

quote:

I think 6.5mm's should be illegal for hunting anything bigger than gophers.

was starting a pissing match.

quote:

Originally posted by larrys:
Dang, I missed all the fun. And I thought the guy who said

quote:

I think 6.5mm's should be illegal for hunting anything bigger than gophers.

was starting a pissing match.

Naw, just an amateurish attempt as a bullshit artist, in the realm of the real deal, doesn't even warrant a reply. Way too bobvious. Real skilled artists try to pass off the 223 as a gopher gun, when really it's clearly a moose gun. Or better yet, try to convince others it's the best thing going for deer. Now that's class and clever, and worth a hoot or two.

Put a stick of nice walnut on it, and the physics of the cartridge change altogether. Everyone knows that.

KB

well this forum has gone to the dogs.

Okay guys -- I'll supply the rattan swords, ya'll all come on down to porter.. after an hour or so at a multiway free for all, i'll turn the hose on ya, and break out the beer.

ice packs for those without split skin ... superglue for those with it.

Then we'll go down to the river and catch catfish.. you'll need a $15 license to do that...

fortunately for me, I won't need a license to let ya'll beat the snot out of each other ... and I'll film it, just so we are certain of the outcome..

We'll "223" shirts and "not 223" shirts ..

Hell, I'll even bbq.

This is pitiful. Here you have a handful of folks genuinely trying to provide facts to eliminate the fiction, and then you have a couple with no experience and nothing to contribute dominating various parts of the thread.

TC1, I applaud your effort to stand tall through the BS.

Unfortunately, in the case of a few, it is falling on deaf ears.

Jeffe, I can't think of anything more fun than chasing you around the yard with a bamboo stick

Bobby, thank you for the kind words. I think we all know what we're dealing with here.


Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
This is pitiful. Here you have a handful of folks genuinely trying to provide facts to eliminate the fiction, and then you have a couple with no experience and nothing to contribute dominating various parts of the thread.

TC1, I applaud your effort to stand tall through the BS.

Unfortunately, in the case of a few, it is falling on deaf ears.

Bobby, I think if you look back, I started with careful wording deliberately trying to avoid the personal insults, and presenting facts, and making light of it all, and trying to have some fun. Then TC1's friend made some unneccessary personal insults, then later TC1 jumped right in there, heavy on the personal insults. How can you possibly claim he is standing tall, when he obviously stooped low?

I have no qualms about sticking with this thread even if all you righteous SOB's think I'm nuts.

I think the guys like TC1 ought to use a little self-restraint regarding emotional responses, and especially "feeling" the need to slander and personally insult another member, who has merely tried to engage in discussion. Frindship is good, but enabling juvenile behavior with an electronic internet hug and pat on the back is not friendship, it's patronizing at best.

I am not a fan of any of the 224's for deer, but I have seen lots of deer and hogs killed with 222's and 223's.

If it is what a person wants to use and it is legal WTFC.

Some states allow the 224's and some don't, some only allow 243 and bigger.

I ain't a fan of 243's either, but do like the 257 Robert's, I don't think a single person on this site or any other could tell which one killed a deer, unless they were the one pulling the trigger.

I can pretty well guarantee the deer won't know the difference, and would not know the difference if it had been shot with one of the 224's.

If a person has good success with a particular caliber/cartridge who are we to decide that they are wrong.

I have seen these goofy assed arguements go the other way with folks claiming that anything larger than a 243 for deer should be outlawed.

For anyone that has that big a problem with it. petition your state to restrict the caliber size allowed.

Well said CHC. I think there are bigger and more worthy problems to worry about, if that's what one wants to do, than messing with a law to regulate a basic freedom of choice.

Kb

Kabluewy-

This is what TC1 kept saying:

"I would say the man with the pictures of the dead animals won this argument. Just another case of experience beats hearsay. The outcome was predictable from the start. The people with no real experience hurl personal insults thinking it helps thier argument.

Funny stuff."
---------------

And then even more name-calling ensued. Maybe TC1 finally got caught up in the fray after tiring of the childish antics and being insulted time after time. I don't know that because I stopped reading most of this thread a good while back -- when it turned down a rather predictable path and started being dominated by elementary-school actions.

But it it weren't for the unnecessary BS that you claim is both "fun" and "inevitable," threads could actually be entertaining and educational instead of a reflection of immaturity and in-house bickering that does nothing but divide hunters. I'm sure the antis love those type of individuals because it gives THEM more ammo.

Bobby,

I responded to TC1s statment. I have lots of pictures of dead animals too, but I haven't used them to prove my case. What's the point of showing a dead deer shot in the neck with a 375? Dead deer shot with a 223, are just nice pictures of dead deer, dinner.

Then he implied that I have no experience and rely on hearsay, and later says it ought right slanderously. Then he accuses people of hurling insults, which he did a good job of himself, with little restraint. He has no high ground, and I never claimed any, because I made up my mind that if these AHs want to tork this down to petty BS, I can play that game too.

My fun and inevitable thread was a demonstration of that, and I was trying to state the obvious regarding the direction this thread had taken entirely independent of my involvment, not because of it. I was trying to make a point in an indirect way, since apparantly direct wasn't working and I was just open to snipes and criticism. It was a reflection of me getting tired of childish antics and insults and immaturity, and bickering, and division of hunters, and feeding the antis.

I believe that any "insults" I have thrown are subject to intrepretation either way, and some mature guys chose to intrepret them as non-insults. Your sensetive buddy TC1 has little sense of humor.

I also believe that I have been reserved and held back from really nasty remarks, and really personal insults. If you saw some of the words I edited out before posting, you would know what I mean.

I also believe that among gentlemen, I shouldn't have to defend my self or suffer personal insults, nor should others participating in this thread. Also, apparantly there are some participants on this thread who aren't gentlemen and thus can't participate as a gentleman can, and instead will readily jump to personal insults to "win" an argument, when to some of us this isn't a competition about winner or loser of the game. We're playing with different rules, thus inevitable is a word that comes to mind. I could just walk away from this, but I ain't gonna. I'll finish what's started based on terms that evolve. I stated clearly in several ways that my preference is discussion and debate, but I also said that I can slander with the best too.

The thing that dissappoints me most about this thread is that I didn't expect it from TC1. Somehow I had him on a pedistal above it all, perhaps from his appreciation of fancy wood. Oh well, that was my error of judgment.

KB

Here's the deal KB. It wouldn't matter if you posted a 1000 pics of dead deer. None of them would have been shot with a .223 so it would be completely irrelevent to the conversation. Shooting deer with a .223 is what this thread is about and it's very obvious to all involved you have no real experience with the subject at hand.

When shown proof through photographs from a source I trust you called him a liar. This is something I don't take lightly and it say's something about you as a person. Words mean things and when make accusations like that it only shows you have no honor. While I'm sure you'll reply saying why his story can't be true we'll all know you have no proof and you really should learn to hold your tongue.

You keep telling me I need to relax while you call me a liar and hurl insults. It seems you've been the one with his panties in a wad the whole time. It's obvious to all you really don't have a grasp of the subject at hand. Your arrguments are weak and have no substance. It's funny how you seem to be able to dish it out but protest when it's your turn to take it. You call me a liar and then are surprised that I state you're a no class act? You told me to get off my high horse when this all started and now you don't seem to be too happy with the results.

What's all this with the wood comments? Do they even have a place in this conversation or is it just another attempt to attack me from a different direction and why did you delete some of your posts last night? It's kind of lame but I guess that's what people do when they have no real defense for the comments they've made.

Where this ends is your choice but trust me on this, people see you for what you are and if you want be held in a higher reguard you should start acting accordanly.

Terry

TC1, I called you a lier regarding your specific statment that I based what I was saying on some TV show, and I accused you of knowing that statment wasn't true. My accusation wasn't broad scale - then - it was specific. If my accusation wasn't correct, and you didn't know that you were lying, then the alternate probable accusations make a lier look pretty good.

Now I'm accusing you of compounding that lie by trying to justify it and acting all indignant and righteous about it, and calling me trash, etc. Maybe that makes you a double lier, or sociopathic lier. I don't know. Maybe just emotional, or irrational, it's anyone's guess.

I considered appology, but figured it was not appropriate, and it wouldn't do any good. So what if you didn't actually know what you were saying was obviously a lie, your intent in saying it was clear enough, and you rationalized saying it to yourself. Now it's even more clear.

Nevertheless, about my real experience with the 223. Between you and I it ain't about that, and juvenile acquaintance, I have had lots of experience with liers, and irrational, and emotional people - heck I was married twice.

I deleted most of the post about the 257, because I found out that jerks on this forum will not look at it like gentlemen, but use it to make some skewed point, and act like they have never made mistakes. I figured it wasn't worth the cyberspace,and just deleted it.

I may deal with this more later. But it ain't worth the time now.

KB

quote:

But it ain't worth the time now.

Does this possibly mean that we can stick a fork in this one because it is done???????????????????

I'm ok with that.

But I think TC1 should stand before the class, and write on the chalk board 100 times " I appologise for calling KB trash, etc.".


KB

Friend of mine shot an ele with a .44Mag Blackhawk with an anti-human-oriented defense load once...cos he happened to have it with him as a sidearm elephant hunting in case he just felt like plinking...



...course the ele was dead already and he just wanted to see how far into an ele the load would go into one of the softer bits of ele...didn't go in very far. Wouldn't have been a fatal wound. A smarter man would have used a .17HMR or something with some power to it to kill a dead elephant...Wonder what it takes to kill this thread, giant EMP caused by nuclear war?

I'll offer the suggestion that will probably kill this thread. It needs a giant enema. I can hear the grunting, farting, splashing and flushing sound already.

Then what will be left is a few cowboy hats and boots and some rodeo belt buckles, one white ball cap worn backwards, sun glasses, camo jackets, ground hogs, some really fun-to-shoot and effective 223 rifles, including those McMillan stocked and walnut stocked, and maybe a few gentlemen.

KB

Hey Kaboom you old flockshooter;

Any luck on those shooting lessons?

I would get on right away as the hunting season will fill up a lot of those slots quickly and from your own words, you need some help in the accuracy department.

I agree with you; you should stay away from hunting any whitetails with a .223, Heck from your own words you should stay away from hunting whitetails with a .257 Roberts.

The OP was asking a question about the use of a .223 for Whitetails and the answer is yes shoot away but do so accurately and you will be just fine.

WHAT a friggin tool is right. Damn shame that load weren't swallowed.

Terry, tell me he DON'T sound like JO....

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Terry, tell me he DON'T sound like JO....

Yes he does. Watching his melt down has been sad but funny.

Terry

so, Terry's the only one that's manned up to take a beating in my backyard... you other couple wanna come and take part? WHo needs 223 and non 223 tshirts, and in what size?

They'll be red for one, black for the other ... ratan swords might tear skin, and I dont' want the ladies distrubed by pouring blood

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
so, Terry's the only one that's manned up to take a beating in my backyard... you other couple wanna come and take part? WHo needs 223 and non 223 tshirts, and in what size?

They'll be red for one, black for the other ... ratan swords might tear skin, and I dont' want the ladies distrubed by pouring blood

Who said I was gonna take a beating? You're buying the beer and before it's over with I'm gonna make you say UNCLE!

Sounds like fun. We need to meet up again next time I go to Houston.

Terry