I picked up some Federal 62 gn Fusion ammo in 223 today.

Now seeing as how they are tipped with a Fusion bullet will they take a 150 lbs whitetail.

Our whitetail they are only` 12 inches through the chest side to side

Whay says board.............................JJ

Ahh, another 22 deer topic... I say yes!

Flame away!

Ed

have not hunted with a 223 but have with a 243 on a 243 100 grain spitzer boatail didnt expand at all passed all the way thru the buck taking the heart out on the way had no blood at all was a 300yd shot the hay was very tall thought we missed but the deer layed down 20yds from the shot dead i like a larger caliber on deer but 1 guy claims he used a 22 lr to deer hunt so to wach his own

I've used the 223 very successfully with the 60 Sierra. Lot of deer out to 250 yards. Shot placement is critical, though.

I would only use a 223 for deer if it's all I had, but it's definitely not my first choice. I'd also make a neck shot. Too many rounds that are more appropriate. Lou

Punch it through the rib cage and start heading for the meat locker.

What do you say?

Will they take that nice buck you didn't know was there?

Do you have the disipline and ability to use a marginal bullet?

Will they shoot accurately in your rifle?

JJ I live their and I say no.

after being here a couple of years, it is amazing how seasonal this topic is every year..

in all of that time, I have come to the conclusion that lethality on deer is more the skill of the hunter, than of the round he is using...

a skilled hunter understands both the capabilities and limitations of the round and rifle he is carrying, and knows how and when to apply its abilities for the task at hand...

there is guys I know who are more lethal deer hunting with a 17 Fireball, than other guys are with an caliber up and including a 458 Win Mag at close range...

sure some round may be more capable,than another for the job at hand...but in the long run it comes down to the ability of the guy who knows how to handle his equipment, and where the bullet needs to go to get the job done....

beyond that, all topics like this are, strictly academic....

being a native of Monroe County WVa, I can attest if you can do your job on Southern WVa deer, then any round you carry will do its job..

Oh hell yes! Just spray and pray. Them mini 14s and ARs work real well for Arkansawing them little boogers. Sooner or later you're gonna hit one somewhere letal and he'll die close enough to the road so's you can see him. Milsup ammo with fmj bullets are okay. Cheap too.

If you knew that a record book buck was in the area that you hunt and you had a chance at him, would you prefer a .223 or a 30-06?

Joe A.

Here we go again..............

Yes, it should work out just fine. Do a lot of practicing with that shooter and get to know it well. If the 223 is your go to varmint rig, and if not you ought to look at that, it probably is more accurate and gets shot more than the 30-06. That particular bullet has taken a lot of game perhaps even more than the old boys with the OPINIONS but no EXPERIENCE.

.

Go for it and let us know how it comes out.

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Whay says board.....JJ

Only people who are Ballistically Challenged, Stunt Shooters and Total Fools use Inadequate Cartridges and Improper Bullets for the task at hand. If you fall into any of those catagories, then you are ready to begin Wounding.

I know of "One" Rule-of-Thumb that you can take to the Bank 99.9% of the time, "If teanscum is for it, it is an idiotic thought!"

Best of luck to you.
-----

Hey Mick, My post was to help you get started instead of holding your thoughts, fuming and getting an ulcer.

While a .223 is far from my first, second or even third choice for hunting, there is absolutely no denying that on smaller deer, in the hands of a skilled and patient shooter and using proper projectiles, the .223 can and will take care of the task at hand -- and has successfully done so many times.

A couple of years ago, in what amounted to an ADC-type situation, I needed to take out several hogs which were bold enough to come into rather "civilized" areas. A cursory look at the situation told me that exits would have to be avoid at all costs, so I developed a load in a TC Contender .223 that was stout enough to make it through the rib cage and into the lungs yet fragile enough so that it would not exit.

I only took broadside, into-the-lungs presentations, and the little .223 worked like a charm -- and I didn't get a single exit.

I took out the offending parties without incident, and the longest any of them ran was perhaps 55-60 yards.

And as I am sure you know, take whatever the self-appointed sentry of the soapbox (Hot Core) says with a grain or two of salt. When he lacks the knowledge to present anything valid in a discussion, he resorts to name calling and incessant capitalization as he did in this very thread. Here is classic Hot Core drivel: "Only people who are Ballistically Challenged, Stunt Shooters and Total Fools use Inadequate Cartridges and Improper Bullets for the task at hand. If you fall into any of those catagories, then you are ready to begin Wounding...I know of "One" Rule-of-Thumb that you can take to the Bank 99.9% of the time, "If teanscum is for it, it is an idiotic thought!""

People use a 22 cal often for deer. I use 30 caliber or larger. Just personal preference. If you shoot a 223 and can precisely place your shot-- feel free. I need a bit more room for error.

I've taken a few deer -- and a few of the somewhat tougher feral hogs -- with .22 centerfires including the .223. I've taken many more deer and hogs with larger centerfires. There has been essentially no difference in the success ratio (100%) between the .22's and the larger centerfires. I will stipulate that all of the deer and hogs taken with the .22's were at 100 yards or less, and that some of those taken with larger calibers were as distant at 400 yards.

Give me the choice between an accurate, scoped .223 with 55-65 grain hunting bullets and an open-sight .30-30 for a deer at 100 yards and I'll take the .223 every time.

There are plenty of 150-200 lb mammals reposing in military cemeteries around the world that were killed with a .223.

JJ,

IMO it depends on how far of a shooting lane you have. If it's 150yds plus I would try something different. If it's less than that then the 223 should work for you. Just make sure you know your rifle.

By all accounts they work very well under ideal conditions. I would sure hate to have a trophy present itself at a sub-optimal shot angle when i had a 223 in my hand. I guess the question would be why use a 223? The mild quarter bores can get the job done without much more fuss.

I fully intend to whack a deer or two with a .223 shooting 70 grain TSXs at 3300 this year. I do not consider it in any way shape or form a marginal load/gun. I would be happy to have that gun in my hands if the biggest deer that ever walked Minnesota decided to come out by me, and would have no thoughts or wishes I'd brought a bigger gun.

Could I make it a marginal load/gun? Yes. But... thats as foolish a question as could I make my 300 WM a marginal gun for the same job.

A few yrs ago, I found a Rem 223 case in my deer stand. I asked my friend who was shooting deer from my stand - He said "his new girl friend". NOW he's 73 yrs old!

Come to find out his "new" girl friend wanted to hunt with him some - Since she had never hunted in her life he bought her a CZ 527 in 223, scoped it and sighted it in for her. Said she was really getting into deer hunting and shooting practice, such that he could hardly keep 223 ammo around w/o her shooting it up!

In the last 3 yrs she has pulled the trigger on 9 deer and has had nine dead deer to prove it!!!

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:
By all accounts they work very well under ideal conditions. I would sure hate to have a trophy present itself at a sub-optimal shot angle when i had a 223 in my hand. I guess the question would be why use a 223? The mild quarter bores can get the job done without much more fuss.

Paul, you’re applying too much logic to the subject. The 22 caliber boys have too much emotional capital wrapped up in their justifications and arguments for the use of 22s on deer sized animals. They’re so wrapped up in the fact that they can do it that they never stop and wonder if they should do it. Deer hunting is a sporting activity but not like caught and release fishing.

Once a hole is punched into an animal, it’s pretty much a bad day for the animal, whether the shooter/hunter recovers it or not. You would think a human person would try to use a bigger caliber instead of the smaller caliber but what would I know.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Whay says board.....JJ

Only people who are Ballistically Challenged, Stunt Shooters and Total Fools use Inadequate Cartridges and Improper Bullets for the task at hand. If you fall into any of those catagories, then you are ready to begin Wounding.

I know of "One" Rule-of-Thumb that you can take to the Bank 99.9% of the time, "If teanscum is for it, it is an idiotic thought!"

Best of luck to you.
-----

Hey Mick, My post was to help you get started instead of holding your thoughts, fuming and getting an ulcer.

Hey Hotsh#t

Tell us some more about the ricochets with those TNT bullets in the 223. I'm dying to hear more about that!!!!! should be good for some giggles.

JJ

Let me tell you about some of Hot Sh#t's experience with 223's on whitetail deer...................wait a second.......he doesn't have an EXPERIENCE. It's only hot air opinions that the old boy cooks up there in the backcountry. Best not to rile him up as I not sure that he is always on his meds.

We have tried in the past to put together some funds for the old boy to get some help .................but nobody contributed.

You might want to listen to those that have EXPERIENCE in the areas that you have an interest. There should be plenty on this board willing to help you out. Best of luck to you in your .223 whitetail efforts.

.223 would not be my 1st choice. I'd look for something larger. I've tracked to many whitetail that have run. 3 in 1 year for hunters using .243's. So I would say no on a .223.

quote:

I fully intend to whack a deer or two with a .223 shooting 70 grain TSXs at 3300 this year.

While a 70 grain bullet at such speed would no doubt be effective, doesn't the 36-inch barrel necessary to reach that velocity with a .223 get in your way?

I think using a 223 is to be a bit over gunned. I took one with a 222 and one shot is all it took.

quote:

Posted 27 August 2009 06:15 Hide Post

quote:
I fully intend to whack a deer or two with a .223 shooting 70 grain TSXs at 3300 this year.

While a 70 grain bullet at such speed would no doubt be effective, doesn't the 36-inch barrel necessary to reach that velocity with a .223 get in your way?

Savage, FVSS, 26 inch tube 26.5 BLC-2, compressed. Very long throat. Worked up the loads once but forgot to log the OAL which is extremely critical on this rifle with TSXs. Went back and did the whole work up again because the numbers looked so bad. The numbers came out exactly the same the second time around without any sign of excess pressure in either work up.

My opinion? Fast barrel is some, has to be pushing things is some more, long throat helps. Still seems to me to be at least 100-150 FPS more than all that should add up to. But... it shots dime sized groups and the chrony seems right. That's close enough to my .243 pushing an 85 grain TSX at 3200 that I will have a go at it with the .223.

I am reasonably sure it won't bounce off Bambi. What TSXs have shown me leads me to believe this will be a whole lot better than cup and core bullets that weight twice as much. I never expect to find one inside a deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by JJ_Miller:
Whay says board.....JJ

Only people who are Ballistically Challenged, Stunt Shooters and Total Fools use Inadequate Cartridges and Improper Bullets for the task at hand. If you fall into any of those catagories, then you are ready to begin Wounding.

I know of "One" Rule-of-Thumb that you can take to the Bank 99.9% of the time, "If teanscum is for it, it is an idiotic thought!"

Best of luck to you.
-----

Hey Mick, My post was to help you get started instead of holding your thoughts, fuming and getting an ulcer.

What is up with all the big game 22 caliber posts of late?

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:

I fully intend to whack a deer or two with a .223 shooting 70 grain TSXs at 3300 this year.

While a 70 grain bullet at such speed would no doubt be effective, doesn't the 36-inch barrel necessary to reach that velocity with a .223 get in your way?

In addition to getting out the barrel stretcher, maybe should twist tweek that barrel some to get the twist rate sufficient for the 70 gr TSX.

Apparantly many of us have a hankering for a light weight, mild recoil rifle to zap deer like magic - boom/flop. Add me too on that list. I have toyed with 223 ownership for years, and just can't do it, because I know I'll have to try it, and justify it, and then there is the heavy bullet / twist rate problem. If I shot the 223 for deer or hogs, I would want to use the 70 gr TSX, so in my book that would require a special fast twist rate barrel. Certainly that's possible, but why?

So, to satisfy that light rifle craving, I have a mini-mauser with a 6.5 Grendel barrel in the works. That's my solution. Surely it will work on coyotes and other small stuff that I might want to make DRT. I also have a 7.62x39 CZ 527 which is fun too, but marginal on deer IMO.

I just kinda wish this continuously recycled dead-end debate over the 223 as adequate for deer or not, would fade away. I would like to know of one person - I mean just one person - who has changed his mind on this subject - either way. Please, will that person just speak up, and give us a report on that.

I'm not that person, because I haven't changed my mind, and ain't likely to. Several times, I've seen what a 223 does on deer, in the hands of a really good shot, from an accurate rifle, and I didn't like what I saw.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
.. I would like to know of one person - I mean just one person - who has changed his mind on this subject - either way. Please, will that person just speak up, and give us a report on that. ...

Hey Kabluewy, That would possibly be me. Back in one of the threads someone was talking about shooting Texas Deer. Then it finally dawned on me if the Game is under 50#, the 223Rem is certainly Adequate for the Task at hand.

Same as you can see in Bobby's flick of that teeny-tiney pig he killed. Probably not even weaned off it's Momma.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I think using a 223 is to be a bit over gunned. I took one with a 222 and one shot is all it took.

I agree, the 223 for deer has been done to death. Anyone ever use the Hornet or Bee for deer hunting? How about a comparison of the 204 Ruger and 17 Remington for such work.

Well, I do know of an individual that culled two does with a 17 HMR at about 80 yds. Not my cup of tea and highly illegal in Texas (no rimfires). But OTOH, it makes a .223 seem like a cannon.

There seem to be three positions on the 223 issue:

1. Folks that never did and never will.

2. Folks that do all it the time successfully.

3. Folks that have done it successfully but use more gun out of preference.


Who seems to be missing are the folks that made proper game shots and say it failed so miserably they'll never do it again.

quote:

Posted 27 August 2009 06:58 Hide Post

quote:
Originally posted by Stonecreek:

quote:
I fully intend to whack a deer or two with a .223 shooting 70 grain TSXs at 3300 this year.

While a 70 grain bullet at such speed would no doubt be effective, doesn't the 36-inch barrel necessary to reach that velocity with a .223 get in your way?



In addition to getting out the barrel stretcher, maybe should twist tweek that barrel some to get the twist rate sufficient for the 70 gr TSX. Roll Eyes

I know I'll have to try it, and justify it, and then there is the heavy bullet / twist rate problem. If I shot the 223 for deer or hogs, I would want to use the 70 gr TSX, so in my book that would require a special fast twist rate barrel. Certainly that's possible, but why?

I just kinda wish this continuously recycled dead-end debate over the 223 as adequate for deer or not, would fade away. I would like to know of one person - I mean just one person - who has changed his mind on this subject - either way. Please, will that person just speak up, and give us a report on that.

I'm not that person, because I haven't changed my mind, and ain't likely to. Several times, I've seen what a 223 does on deer, in the hands of a really good shot, from an accurate rifle, and I didn't like what I saw.

KB

I didn't modify the barrel on my Savage and it came with a 9 twist and shoots 70 grain TSXs into dime sized groups. It is mighty picky about seating depth, but when it's right, it's more than right enough.

I am one person who has changed his mind about using a 22 center fire to kill deer. I have in the past killed deer with 222s and not had them fail. I have killed deer with 243s and had them fail. After using Barnes TSXs in .243s I have no qualms about a .243 being adequate and in fact consider them superior to all but the heaviest constructed 30 caliber bullets I am a believer that they will go through much straighter even after hitting bone, and they will penetrate further. In my considered opinion that 85 grain TSX out of the 243 is a better way to go than a 30 caliber 150 grain core-lokt or silvertip or any of the ballistic tips. It is my opinion because I have seen well more than enough moderately constructed bullets hit bone, even rib bone and deflect. I do not consider that a bullet failure because that's going to happen with that design. It's the nature of the bullet. The Barnes bullets are designed differently and much less likey to deflect. I do not believe you can drive them too fast and cause a failure that way which I have done with cup and core.

So, if a 250 Savage with an 80 grain cup and core is OK for deer, then a 22-250 with a 70 grain TSX is certainly acceptable. The problem being with the 22-250 is that they normally come 12 or 14 twist which won't stabilize the 70 grain TSX in my experience.

It does require the ability to look at what is available and understand it. It does require an open mind about the matter. When I satisfied myself I had a round up to the job and that the rifle was sufficiently accurate to meet my standards, I changed my mind and I fully intend to whack a deer or two with it to see if I need to change it back. Being very conservative about things like this I don't think that it's likely I will change back, I took some convincing before I decided it was well more than up to the task, and I am starting at the very top of what you can do with a 22 caliber rifle. If I see the margin for error is adequate I may back down to a 53 grain TSX in my 12 twist rifle. But... I will have a good look see before I make that decision.

Miles,

What twist are you using w the 70 grain TSX?

Barnes says 1-8 but you are getting alot more velocity than manual suggests so you are probably making up for the lost RV if you are using a 1-9.

I have a 20 inch 1-9 and wanted to try it but have not.

PS The Fusion is one of best two 223 expanding bullets on the market and they work well, penetrating 16 inches or more. (Most do 11 inches or less). Retain 53 grains, about .45 caliber expansion.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
I think using a 223 is to be a bit over gunned. I took one with a 222 and one shot is all it took.

I agree, the 223 for deer has been done to death. Anyone ever use the Hornet or Bee for deer hunting? How about a comparison of the 204 Ruger and 17 Remington for such work.

I've taken several with a 223 and Sierra 52 gr Match Kings, one with a 22-250 with the same bullet and four with a 17 Mach IV loaded with a 25 gr Berger Match. Never wounded a deer but shot placement is critical; all shots but one were broadside in lungs, the other was a frontal with the 223 which penetrated to the lungs, bang-flop.

Just my personal experiences, and these deer were quite a bit bigger than Texas deer.

Now if I knew there were a good chance at a B&C buck then I'd use an archery set up.

Chris

quote:

Originally posted by CISCO:


Now if I knew there were a good chance at a B&C buck then I'd use an archery set up.

Chris

Based on much philosophy above, I think I would throw a big-ass rock at it. No substitute for mass, eh?

quote:

Savage, FVSS, 26 inch tube 26.5 BLC-2, compressed. Very long throat. Worked up the loads once but forgot to log the OAL which is extremely critical on this rifle with TSXs. Went back and did the whole work up again because the numbers looked so bad. The numbers came out exactly the same the second time around without any sign of excess pressure in either work up.

My opinion? Fast barrel is some, has to be pushing things is some more, long throat helps. Still seems to me to be at least 100-150 FPS more than all that should add up to. But... it shots dime sized groups and the chrony seems right. That's close enough to my .243 pushing an 85 grain TSX at 3200 that I will have a go at it with the .223.

Andy,

This gun is pushing them at right on 3280 without much variation. It's a safe load in this gun but I question if it would be in another.

Above is what I responded to another poster with. I do not advise you try this. It looks to me to be about 300 FPS over what it should be and like I stated above I can only account for about half that at best. I worked it up twice in this gun and came to the very same load without pressure signs in this gun. It throws 8 inch groups if I go outside +- .010 from the sweet spot for depth. The bullets do not keyhole, but they might just as well for as badly as they shoot once I get off the sweet spot.

My 12 twist gun will keyhole the 70 grainers at fifty yards. I am not quite comfortable with the 53 grain TSX for shooting Bambi. I know a lot of other people are just fine with it, but for me, I need to do this stepwise and prove to my satisfaction that I have plenty of margin with the 70s first. I have shot a couple with 222s, a long time ago, but head shots don't need much bullet performance. I fully intend to take them through the chest with this load/gun just like I would with a bigger gun. I want that basis for comparison. My 25-06 won't get used this year because I cannot make it come under an inch with TSXs yet. Dime sized groups with 70 grain TSXs I trust enough to use. 1,5 inch groups with 100 grain TSXs out of the 25-06 I don't trust enough because I have what I think is better, not because I don't believe the 25-06 would kill them too.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by CISCO:


Now if I knew there were a good chance at a B&C buck then I'd use an archery set up.

Chris

Based on much philosophy above, I think I would throw a big-ass rock at it. No substitute for mass, eh?

No No No you've got it all wrong. The next step from archery is knives my boy. Only manly man participate in this pursuit. No magnum hungry blast boys that can't hit their butt who are in the richoet business. Only manly man need apply. Sorry Hotsh#t!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:
Miles,

What twist are you using w the 70 grain TSX?

Barnes says 1-8 but you are getting alot more velocity than manual suggests so you are probably making up for the lost RV if you are using a 1-9.

I have a 20 inch 1-9 and wanted to try it but have not.

PS The Fusion is one of best two 223 expanding bullets on the market and they work well, penetrating 16 inches or more. (Most do 11 inches or less). Retain 53 grains, about .45 caliber expansion.

Andy

. Andy; I tried the 70 gr TSX in my 223 Rem VTR , it is supposed to have a 1-9 twist ... Even @ more than 3100 fps the bullets wern,t stabilized ......and @ 3000fps I was getting oval holes in the target .. My thrown together hand loads with range pickup 223 brass and a max load of 2230 powder and Win 55 gr fmj BT moly tumbled bullets is printing less than 3/4 " groups .. and 53 gr TSX are about the same .... The 70 gr were in a 6 -10 " pattern ......... So I,m pretty sure a 1-9 won,.t stabilize the 70 gr TSX @ normal 223 velocities ...............

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:
By all accounts they work very well under ideal conditions. I would sure hate to have a trophy present itself at a sub-optimal shot angle when i had a 223 in my hand. I guess the question would be why use a 223? The mild quarter bores can get the job done without much more fuss.

Paul, you’re applying too much logic to the subject. The 22 caliber boys have too much emotional capital wrapped up in their justifications and arguments for the use of 22s on deer sized animals. They’re so wrapped up in the fact that they can do it that they never stop and wonder if they should do it. Deer hunting is a sporting activity but not like caught and release fishing.

Once a hole is punched into an animal, it’s pretty much a bad day for the animal, whether the shooter/hunter recovers it or not. You would think a human person would try to use a bigger caliber instead of the smaller caliber but what would I know.

.
.
.
. So , by this logic you hunt Elk with a 460 Whby and would have to use at least a 600 OK as a min. for Brown bear .. And would need wheeled artillery for Elephant .......... Having good results with a 223 controlled expansion bullet is alot less of a trick than killing a cape buffalo with a 470 Mbogo ........ .
. I used to think the 223 was bad for deer , but with the bullets we have now . and actually being able to hit the intended part of the target animal they are more humane than a good bow hunter ........

A 60 grain .223 bullet will work fine on deer. My old boss used to shoot deer on his property with a .22 long rifle pistol. He would usually go for a head shot and it supposedly dropped them in their tracks. A .223 would make a gelatinous mess of the heart/lungs of any deer with a side shot. I don't know if I would go for a shoulder shot though.

thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
There seem to be three positions on the 223 issue:

1. Folks that never did and never will.

2. Folks that do all it the time successfully.

3. Folks that have done it successfully but use more gun out of preference.

Put me in category #3, three deer kills mostly DRT. One crawled ten yards before I put a second round in his neck with no blood trail. I've decided that I'm not a good enough shot to use a .223.