I would say the man with the pictures of the dead animals won this argument. Just another case of experience beats hearsay. The outcome was predictable from the start. The people with no real experience hurl personal insults thinking it helps thier argument.

Funny stuff.

The pictures of the dead animals prove only that the guy has some digital photos. I've got lots of those too, and besides those are Blacktail deer, not whitetail, and everyone knows that those little Sitka deer just fall over at the sound of a shot, especially in the presence of a Neanderthal.

Heck, in S.E. AK I used to go with my 322 lb buddy Rankin with his diesel boat that backfired, and we would make one pass along the beach, then go ashore, and drag them by the dozens out of the bush right above tide line. We never had to fire a shot, and wasted no meat. Rankin just looked and smelled like what I would imagine a Neanderthal was like, and apparantly the deer thought he was for real.

Ketch-um-if-he-kan probably found those deer dead on the beach - downwind.

Sour grapes?

I've known the man for a long time. I do disagree with him on certain things but I trust his word. If he said he shot'em with a .223 it's gold in my book.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
I would say the man with the pictures of the dead animals won this argument. Just another case of experience beats hearsay. The outcome was predictable from the start. The people with no real experience hurl personal insults thinking it helps thier argument.

Funny stuff.

Just for grins I have a question for you TC1,

You come to Colorado as a non-resident hunter.

You’re sitting on a mountain at about 10,542 ft above sea level.

A weather front is coming for you, it’s going to dump 36 inches of snow on you within 6 hours and the deer know it too and start moving out.

The front’s winds are bouncing around at 5-8 mph with gusts around 12 mph. You are already getting snowed on.

About 300 yards down the valley 2 does and a buck step out in the clearing. It’s a big buck.

You have 2 rifles with you, one is a 223 and the other is a 30-06.

Which one would you pick up?

Or pick neither and go home and eat your paper tag?

Kabluewy, your last post just shows how out of touch you really are on the subject. Nice how you changed your post around after I replied.

MickinColo, if you have to resort to hypothetical situations you really don't have an argument.

It was good for a laugh. I still belive the guy with the dead animals.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Kabluewy, your last post just shows how out of touch you really are on the subject. Nice how you changed your post around after I replied.

MickinColo, if you have to resort to hypothetical situations you really don't have an argument.

It was good for a laugh. I still belive the guy with the dead animals.

Terry

Very convenient, isn’t it? Dismissal of anything you don’t want to deal with directly.

Not really, it was a pretend situation not based on facts or anything to do with the question at hand. You may want to base your argument on facts. They work better than pretend.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Not really, it was a pretend situation not based on facts or anything to do with the question at hand. You may want to base your argument on facts. They work better than pretend.

Terry

TC, there is one thing I know for sure, small bullets don’t hold too well in the wind. No hypothetical situations, just facts. Shot them, used them, and still use them. I done use them on deer, but if you think that wind makes no difference, I will get out of your way, Feel free to be a fool.

Facts? Don't be redicilous. Facts are nothing here. Might as well piss in the wind. This argument is long over, so I'm just cutting up, and checking your sense of humor, and to see if you can get past taking yourself seriously, which is something I have no problem with - uhh myself seriously that is. No disrespect to you.

Good luck Terry, but this horse is really dead.


KB

Kabluewy, until you beat the dead horse into dust, the argument will never die. But some fool always has the ability to resurrect the dead.

I'll end it by starting a new thread for people to lynch someone else on...

I think instead of a 223 this season, I am going to use a 17 Fireball with a light load of Blue Dot...for deer season...

Just got off the phoner with a buddy working one of them $3,500 for 3 days, no animal guaranteed, ranches down a bit south of me. Up to you if you get a deer/hog/turkey but they keep the blood lines pretty clean. Sippin' beers and catching up he said that last year 9 culls were via .204 Ruger and 4 were .17 centerfires. Gotta keep the coyotes off and ya gotta keep decent blood lines and rid of weak spikes you don't want to breed or else people stop paying big money to come hunt Texas Whitetail. We should all paypal seafire some bluedot and air ticket money. He seems sensible.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Facts? Don't be redicilous. Facts are nothing here. Might as well piss in the wind. This argument is long over, so I'm just cutting up, and checking your sense of humor, and to see if you can get past taking yourself seriously, which is something I have no problem with - uhh myself seriously that is. No disrespect to you.

Good luck Terry, but this horse is really dead.


KB

If a fellow cannot kill a deer with a .257 Roberts which has been used for decades to do just that job, then he has a problem and its not the rifle. Then the more blather a fellow makes about why it won't work is an attempt at self justification and saving face. Give it up kabluuyWY, no amount of blather will outweight dead animals at the feet of folks that know how to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I will get out of your way, Feel free to be a fool.

The people with no real experience hurl personal insults thinking it helps thier argument.

Funny stuff.

So a 223 in the hands of a few will suffice...as long as the shot is close, no wind, no brush to buck, etc.....fine!!!....but its still not the best cartridge for the job....done....over....I hunt with equipment that is best for what I want to do. No one here is saying that 22 caliber cartridges are best for the job, they're saying it can be done...and that's not good enough for me.

Guess you could shoot brown bear with a 243 too!! or elephant with a 7 x 57...its been done...but this is "yahoo land" for me...not hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I've never lost a deer shot with a 223AI, hell I've never had one go more than 5 yards. None of my pards that use it have lost one either.

Mind you (if you live and hunt in Ketchikan), it is fair to say that coastal deer are not usually big, and because of the thick rain forests on the wet coast are often shot at closer range than a deer further east.

Bullet construction is often a big deal too. Hit a deer with a very frangible bullet that is intended to red mist a gopher and the result might not be so good.

All told, and given the variables that could cause less experienced hunters to make poorer choices, there should be a lower calibre limit somewhere. No matter where it is someone will complain that they should be able to do it anyway. The 223 is popular in part because it's a military bullet, and it was designed as a wounding weapon.

The part I don't understand is the amount of emotion that always goes into this argument. Nobody claimed it was the best round, only that it was sufficient, like so many other rounds people hunt deer with it has it's limitations. It's been used too many times with success to kill too many deer to deny it's effectiveness. With the newer bullets out like the TSX it's a far more lethal cartridge than in years past. Most people with solid experience with the round like John Barsness for example say it's good out to about 200yds in the hands of an experienced rifleman.

Whitetail deer just aren't that hard to kill.

Well, that's my contribution to this thread. I don't want to get pulled too deep into this like some of you have.


Terry

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I've never lost a deer shot with a 223AI, hell I've never had one go more than 5 yards. None of my pards that use it have lost one either.

Either this guy is shooting a magic wand or that statment just is certainly not the truth on the bigger picture. It's something so contrary to stuff I have witnessed. I have never owned a 223, and probably won't, and certainly never hunted deer with one, so to some that probably disqualifies my opinion, but I just can't erase the memory of those deer I saw that were hit, and the little bullet obviously did the job it was designed to do, slow death from wound, and no surprise the deer ran off.

I was watching a show on the outdoor channel, on the use of the AR15, and one of the training experts for M&P said something like - we don't train for double or tripple tap, the training is to shoot until the threat is eliminated.

This is what the younger guys are used to in using the 223, not necesarily KETCH, but lots of others. One of the basic principals of hunting ethics is lost or violated there, which is make the first shot count. When using or advocating something to hunt deer that is widely acknowledge to need more than one shot to eliminate a human threat, IMO opinion is not responsible.

That's why with KETCH Saying that the 223 is adequate is not enough said. That statment, to be true, needs to be heavily qualified. In other words, it is not by itself an unqualified truth. And furthermore, much of the qualifying statments that should be said about the adequacy of the 223, would not even be relevant if the discussion was about a real deer cartridge.

KB

quote:

We should all paypal seafire some bluedot and air ticket money. He seems sensible.

He'll take it!!

Well, for what it's worth, my late Dad, my son snd I have killed over 150 deer in the last forty years or so with center fire .22s, mostly 22-250s, but some with .222s and .222 magnums..none with a .223..I killed my first deer sixty years ago [with a .257 Roberts] since then I've killed ungulates with at least eleven different centerfire rifles. I've lost two wounded animals, both shot with a .270 win..one I gut shot as he ran up a canyou wall, the other jumped the fence and the landowner would not allow us to retrive him. Neither was the fault of the caliber. We never lost a deer shot with a .22 centerfire. Most shot with a .22 centerfire were dropped right there, once in a while one would stagger thirty or forty yards. Most of the deer shot with .22 centerfires were in open country [west Texas western Oklahoma] and 250 yards or less, an avrage probably 150 or so. The bucks would avrage 125# field dressed, the does somewhat less.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's certainly not the truth on the bigger picture. When someone says something so contrary to stuff I have witnessed, it more that irritates me. I have never owned a 223, and probably won't, and certainly never hunted deer with one, so to some that probably disqualifies my opinion, but I just can't erase the memory of those deer I saw that were hit, and the little bullet obviously did the job it was designed to do, slow death from wound, and no surprise the deer ran off.
I was watching a show on the outdoor channel, on the use of the AR15, and one of the training experts for M&P said something like - we don't train for double or tripple tap, the training is to shoot until the threat is eliminated.

This is what the younger guys are used to in using the 223, not necesarily KETCH, but lots of others. One of the basic principals of hunting ethics is lost or violated there, which is make the first shot count. When using or advocating something to hunt deer that is widely acknowledge to need more than one shot to eliminate a human threat, IMO opinion is not responsible. That's why I have a problem with KETCH. Saying that the 223 is adequate is not enough said. That statment, to be true, needs to be heavily qualified. In other words, it is not by itself an unqualified truth. And furthermore, much of the qualifying statments that should be said about the adequacy of the 223, would not even be relevant if the discussion was about a real deer cartridge.

KB

Without knowing what bullet they were using, it's pretty hard to agree that the problem was the 223 cartrige itself or a poor choice of load for the application. I suspect the latter based on my own experiences.

As far as the TV show, well all tactical training says shoot until the threat is eliminated. Even with 00 buck in a 12 ga. That is a matter of procedure, not a statement regarding the efficacy of the 223 rifle round. It is true that there are some problems putting down jihadis instantly in Iraq with the M16 but again, that is with a FMJ that was designed to wound, not kill. A 63 gr soft point or TSX would not have the same problem.

Your comment leads one to think that you may feel police must be lousy hunters for no other reason than they are trained to "shoot until the threat is eliminated". Do you not think reasonable human beings can distinguish between that training and the proper mindset for a sporting hunt?

Or do you really belive that military ammunition which is intentionally designed to wound is what people take to the field for hunting? After all the posts about specific 223 loads that are designed for medium game, you seem unable to acknowledge that there may be a difference in performance between the two and that is simple stubborness in the face of facts, not logic or a higher moral position on the subject.

You may write carefully to avoid words that insult but the sum of the content above is insulting to both law enforcement and young people.

Culling deer at a commercial hunting ranch does not qualify a weapon as adequate for hunting. In Texas spike bucks and does don't normally weigh 75 pounds soaking wet. They are hunted from an elevated box blind, by spreading corn on the ground, not over 50 yards away. The deer are 3/4 tame anyway, because of being enclosed behind a high fence and fed all their lives. Our hero then pops one, broadside at 45 yards, and then promptly turns on his computer and expounds on his great prowess as a hunter. Even when hunting on low-fence deer leases the use of elevated box blinds and corn for bait is the normal hunting method. Under these conditions a .22 magnum is entirely adequate.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

Or do you really belive that military ammunition which is intentionally designed to wound is what people take to the field for hunting?

Absolutely - that's what I believe, and if not FMJ, then varmint or target bullets. I did a quick search on Midway and among the hundreds of 223 factory loads, I found three which may do for deer hunting - Cor Bon 62 gr TSX, Fed 60 gr Partition, and Win 64 gr. softnose. I have seen no discussion of the use of those factory loads, but handloads, and 70 tsx. So I am highly doubtful that most will be very selective as to the ammo used, and will just shoot whatever they got and feeds. This is exactly what I mean about qualifying the cartridge. Search any real deer cartridge and you will see mostly ammo for deer hunting. Search the 223, and you see varmit, target and military ammo mostly, which should be a clue.

And I don't intentionally mean to insult military, law enforcment or young people, but if they have the attitude or mindset that the 223 is an unqualified adequate deer cartridge, then I have no problem with a mild insult, if that's what it takes to make a point

KB

Kaboom

You old flock shooter you!!!!!!!!!!!

"So, I got into a cluster phuck of does running everywhere, back and forth, stopping briefly because they scattered on the first shot, and couldn't figure out where the shots were coming from. Anyway, the guys with the lease said they wanted to thin the does out, and this was a special doe season, so they said shoot all I could. I shot four times at deer standing still, and recovered one. They all ran, and the one I found went about 100 yards with a bullet through the heart, exiting. The entrance and exit looked really small to me. I'm reasonably sure that I hit them all, in a good and lethal place. None were head or neck shots, all for the center of the chest, since the range was about 125 yards. They were all standing still, broadside, when I took the shots, and I had a rest on the ledge of the deer stand. I can't think of better conditions. I checked the rifle later and it was still shooting where I aimed."

Wow, that is some impressive shooting!!! (Hotsh#t notice the flare going up, that means the previous statement is sarcastic)

Shooting a .257 at four deer standing at 125 yards and you didn't recover any of them!!!!! I guess from that EXPERIENCE you would say that the .257 Roberts is an inadequate caliber for the taking of Whitetail deer. ( As that was the OP's question to start the thread) In your hands I would have to agree with you on that idea. It looks like when you are shooting you might need a 375H&H so that your misses might be more effective. (Hotsh#t, there goes a flare)

I would agree that you should stay away from the .223 as it appears that you can't shoot for sh#t. It is best in the hands of those that could hit a deer standing at 125 yards away which would include almost everyone on this board, with a few exceptions like you and your Richoeting rifleman Hillbilly buddy. (Hotsh#t that's not sarcasm on that last one, I know this is all confusing to you so I'll go slow). Most guys here have fired a rifle before and would be capable of hitting a deer at 125 yards with almost any caliber.

I would suggest you go to your local rifle range and see if the is some instruction that you can take to help you with your marksmanship. I do know that the Boy Scouts have a rifle shooting merit badge that might be swell to look into. Clearly you are in need of some help in this area.

Interestingly P.O. Ackley did some great research based on his EXPERIENCE and publish a couple of books about the use of high velocity small calibers on big game animals. It makes for interesting reading. (Hotsh#t.....no flare on that one). Cheerio!!!

In case it matters, I'll just mostly ignore jerks who argue with personal insults. It's pointless to argue with you.

One intrepretation of someone who admits making a mistake that he's not proud of is that it's normal. We all make mistakes. That's why the 223 is so subject to human error. Someone not aflicted with arshwoleitus could see that, and if a guy can't admit his mistakes, well - whatever. Some guys are not man enough to admit mistakes and are ready to pounce on others who have no problem with it. I'm thinking the 223 is perfect for you guys who are above normal, and have big egos and denial and macho. More power to ya. For us normal people, the 223 is a poor choice.

It's interesting that you mention the 375, because I took my first blacktail about halfway up the mountain with a 375 H&H. Shot right in the neck at about 12 yards, DRT, most satisfying hunt. Would a 223 have worked? Of Course, but I worried far less about bears as I dragged the deer down off the mountain, and besides it was a good excuse to use the 375. Would I choose the 375 for deer over the 223? Heck yes, every time, but there are better choices than either for deer, but I've got over $1,500 in that 375, and it's light enough, and fun to shoot, I have lots of ammo, and it's accurate, and I'm darn sure gonna use it when I can.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

Or do you really belive that military ammunition which is intentionally designed to wound is what people take to the field for hunting?

Absolutely - that's what I believe, and if not FMJ, then varmint or target bullets. I did a quick search on Midway and among the hundreds of 223 factory loads, I found three which may do for deer hunting - Cor Bon 62 gr TSX, Fed 60 gr Partition, and Win 64 gr. softnose. I have seen no discussion of the use of those factory loads, but handloads, and 70 tsx. So I am highly doubtful that most will be very selective as to the ammo used, and will just shoot whatever they got and feeds. This is exactly what I mean about qualifying the cartridge. Search any real deer cartridge and you will see mostly ammo for deer hunting. Search the 223, and you see varmit, target and military ammo mostly, which should be a clue.

And I don't intentionally mean to insult military, law enforcment or young people, but if they have the attitude or mindset that the 223 is an unqualified adequate deer cartridge, then I have no problem with a mild insult, if that's what it takes to make a point

KB

Well, your opinion of the hunting public is so low, you're not really arguing the usefulness of the 223 for medium game but displaying your contempt for the hunting public. That would be a different topic.

If your experiences in your part of the world support that, I am sorry you have to live among so many hunting morons. We don't have that issue in any large numbers here, but we do have our share of morons with other issues.

My statment speaks for itself. I see no need to repeat myself. Intrepret it as you wish.

KB

Jimmy,

What is the twist in your two rifles? 1-9 and 1-8?

Mind sharing your loading data w us and velocity/barrel length of your two rifles?

Thanks, Andy

Terry, all along I figured that you were above all this, and I also had the notion that my high regard for your opinion would be infallible. Humm.

KB

Oh, you deleted your post. I'm glad you thought the better of it. I'm already in deeper than I want to be, no need to join this snake pit.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Terry, all along I figured that you were above all this, and I also had the notion that my high regard for your opinion would be infallible. Humm.

KB

Well, when you called a friend of mine a liar all bets were off. You will be treated the way you treat others.

Further more you have tried to discredit others actual experience with what you've seen on TV! Give me a break.

The people that use this round to kill deer do it with premium bullets and good marksmanship. Trying to portray them as slob hunters using surplus ammo is pure bullshit on your part and you know it.

Act like a man of honor and you'll be treated like one.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Most people with solid experience with the round like John Barsness for example say it's good out to about 200yds in the hands of an experienced rifleman. ...

So that is where all this is coming from. I just knew some no-nothing gun-rag hack had to be promoting this stupidity. And I must say it does seem to fit a few other things barsness has totally WRONG:
1. You can Anneal Cases with a candle. Not hardly. If he had even tried it, he would have realized how WRONG that is.
2. Any scope with an Objective larger than 40mm is not needed. Displaying a lack of Hunting "experience" where the legal Hunting Hours begin 1-hour prior to sunrise and extend until 1-hour past sunset. Small scopes have their place, but so do the Large ones.
3. CHE/PRE is pretty much worthless. As has been recently proven in a totally objective Test by a guy new to using CHE/PRE and a guy with a Haphazard SGSs(M43 outside a Lab environment) CHE blew away the Haphazard SGSs with usable Data instead of non-calibrated, guessed at dimension, fudge factored, worthless info.
4. And now a 223Rem is all a person needs to 200yds "if" they are an Experienced Rifleman. That fits right in with the rest of his great Hunting knowledge. Pitiful.

Experience trumps bullshit.

but keep trying it's always good for a laugh.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well, when you called a friend of mine a liar all bets were off. You will be treated the way you treat others.

Furthermore you have tried to discredit others actual experience with what you've seen on TV! Give me a break.

The people that use this round to kill deer do it with premium bullets and good marksmanship. Trying to portray them as slob hunters using surplus ammo is pure bullshit on your part and you know it.

Act like a man of honor and you'll be treated like one.

Terry

Normally, I don't feel inclined to explain myself, but in your case I'll make one exception.

I don't think I was the one who started with the personal insults. I believe I tried to outmanuver them, but unsuccessfully.

Sorry about your friend. Partial truths, intentionally, are lies. Anyway, the beef between your buddy and I isn't about truth or lies, it's because he turned a difference in opinion into personal insults, just like you have.

I'm not trying to discredit others. They do a plenty good job of that without my help.

You are misrepresenting the truth by saying I am basing what I say exclusively on something I saw on TV, and you know it. So my friend, that makes you a lier too.

I am certainly not trying to portray those who use premium bullets in the 223 as slob hunters. Nor am I saying that a premium bullet is even necessary, in all circumstances. I am saying that not all are so particular, and could get the wrong impression from those who don't qualify the use of the 223. Saying the 223 is an unqualified adequate deer cartridge is a lie, and IMO those who say such a thing and advocate such a thing are liers, and slobs. All deer cartridges need some qualifications to be declared to be adequate. It's just that those qualifying factors are far more extensive for the 223, and to ignore them is irresponsible.

You are making some strong and apparantly emotional claims toward me personally. I really wish you would come off your high horse.

KB

Well, at least we can agree that you haven't discredited anyone.


As far as you calling him a liar, you couldn't disprove one damn thing the man said if your life depended on it. You just don't have the experience and it shows. I'll accept his word as truth over yours anyday of the week. You have no idea what you're talking about. You just parrot information from TV shows and make up the rest. This will be just one more subject you know nothing about. You're a light weight.

quote:

I'm not trying to discredit others. They do a plenty good job of that without my help. And you are misrepresenting the truth by saying I am basing what I say exclusively on something I saw on TV. And you know it. So my friend, that makes you a lier too.

So, I'm a liar too now? What have I said to deserve that title? Nothing lightweight, nothing.



Terry

PS. One more thing you no class POS. I'm not your friend.

Uhh, Terry if you are off your meds, excuse me. Maybe we'll continue our discussion when your mood changes. Have a nice day.

KB

Get some real experience and come back and try again.

Terry

Well it's my opinion and I'm entitled to it, and I think I have plenty of experience to form a valid opinion, both on the subject of the adequacy of the 223, and the friends I choose. I really now question your merit in both.
Thankfully it's not my problem.

Incidentally, as I think about it, all my friends at one time or another have disagreed with me, and I with them, sometimes very emotionally and harshly, but what makes them worthy of friendship is that - so what. Friendship ain't about agreement.

Honestly, I think I'm very good at getting over it, and I have no space or time to hold grudges. I had way too much of that baggage at one time to let it accumulate again.

KB

You have no experience and it shows. Yes, it's the internet and you are entitled to act like an ass so carry on, you're doing a great job.

quote:

Incidentally, as I think about it, all my friends at one time or another have disagreed with me, and I with them, but what makes them worthy of friendship is that - so what. Friendship ain't about agreement.

Do you call them liars too when you don't agree with them? The way you act I seriously doubt you have any friends.

Terry

Heck yes Terry. I have friends that I've called lying bastards, generally with a big grin, but it's difficult to grin on a forum. And they have called me worse. Could be a cultrual thing - Redneck - or whatever. In some circles it's considered an honor.
I don't go so far as get amongst them in a drunken party and try that though, cause I ain't a fighter. Why do you think I chose the name of Kabluewy? Cause I'm full of bullshit is why and cherish and cultivate the art every chance I get, and likewise appreciate such an esteemed status in others.

People who take themselves and their opinions too seriously are way too predictable for me.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Well, at least we can agree that you haven't discredited anyone.


As far as you calling him a liar, you couldn't disprove one damn thing the man said if your life depended on it. You just don't have the experience and it shows. I'll accept his word as truth over yours anyday of the week. You have no idea what you're talking about. You just parrot information from TV shows and make up the rest. This will be just one more subject you know nothing about. You're a light weight.

quote:

I'm not trying to discredit others. They do a plenty good job of that without my help. And you are misrepresenting the truth by saying I am basing what I say exclusively on something I saw on TV. And you know it. So my friend, that makes you a lier too.

So, I'm a liar too now? What have I said to deserve that title? Nothing lightweight, nothing.



Terry

PS. One more thing you no class POS. I'm not your friend.

Very interesting post TC 1, I thought you said you were going to get out of this subject before your emotions got out of control.

“The part I don't understand is the amount of emotion that always goes into this argument”

That’s what I was wondering about you.

“Not really, it was a pretend situation not based on facts or anything to do with the question at hand. You may want to base your argument on facts. They work better than pretend.”

I presented a real life “experience” with caliber choices (been there done that), only I didn’t use either one of the caliber choices. I just wanted to see how you responded.