quote:

My responses are to me a form of public service, to show those who are maybe undecided, or maybe thinking the 223 is a good idea for deer, that there is an alternate view.

Our responses are a public service too. They are to remind everybody that you have no real experience with the subject at hand and are talking out your ass.

It's funny how people that don't have a clue about what they are talking about try to persuede others. You see a lot of this going on with the current administration right now. The idea of thinking you know what's best for everybody even though you have no experience to draw from is really in vogue at present. Interesting how the liberal mindset works.

is this foolishness still going on? KB I wish you would take your fight to the bow hunters with their piss-ant sharp sticks. It would do my heart good to see a bunch of bow hunters beating the pxss out of your arguments. You are clearly more concerned about winning an argument and saving face than any of the actual facts. I don't and hopefully many more just don't give a chitt about what you think as many have come to the conclusion that this is more about you and your ego rather than reality. I will hunt with what's legal in my state (.22 Center Fire including the hornet) and have no problem with doing it. Post just one picture of yourself over that moose that took you three shots to kill and I will believe that you are not somebody just trolling this website to cause trouble! Even the deer where you just shot into a "flock" of deer to kill one and lost the others would make me a believer...

quote:

Originally posted by teanScum:
...most of what you post is wrong and reveals a lack of knowledge and EXPERIENCE but is a diarrhea of opinion. An opinion without EXPERIENCE... ...

Hey Kabluewy, I hope you have not let the fools of the board run you off. The above lying sack of obummer has about as much experience with firearms as his hero obummer. Once he carries a rifle 350days/yr for 30 years, then he "might" have a different tune. But of course that would be based on him being able to think, and that does not seem possible - under any circumstances.

I'm also a strong proponent of "Experience" carrying a good bit of weight in a discussion. But..., not at the expense of common sense and a modicum of rational thought tossed in. From reading some of the above posts deriding anyone saying a 22cal is a pitiful and pathetic excuse for Game over 50#, it simply shows a high degree of actual "inexperience and a severe lack of valid, cogent reasoning".

For example, I do not need, nor do I have, any actual first-hand experience to know any of the following is a bad, repulsive idea:
1. Having a male lover.
2. Having a vacation in prison.
3. Voting for ANY democrat(teanScum's heros).
4. Jumping from 8Angels without a chute.
5. Driving into a gasoline tanker at 120mph.
6. Hunting Game over 50# with a 22cal.
7. Head shots on Game.
8. etc.

Now, I realize teanScum and some of his cohorts would want to try each of the above before they could possibly understand those are bad things where you do not need Experience to recognize it, you simply need a functional brain. And I can also see where that leaves teanScum and a few of them in the dark.

Hang in there Kabluewy. Don't let the few fools on the Board beat you down.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I do not need, nor do I have, any actual first-hand experience

Makes your opinion just priceless and worth every cent when it comes to this thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
6. Hunting Game over 50# with a 22cal.

Does this mean you think that whacking terrorists in the desert with a 223 is akin to Having a male lover? They weigh more than 50#. Kind of disrespectful to our armed forces.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
6. Hunting Game over 50# with a 22cal.

Kind of disrespectful to our armed forces.

The disrespect occurred when they gave our troops the .223 to use in Viet Nam and than never changed. roger

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Does this mean you think that whacking terrorists in the desert with a 223 is akin to Having a male lover? They weigh more than 50#. Kind of disrespectful to our armed forces.

This is a classic example of what I was talking about when I said above: "I'm also a strong proponent of "Experience" carrying a good bit of weight in a discussion. But..., not at the expense of common sense and a modicum of rational thought tossed in."

Here it is obvious the fool poster lacks both common sense and any ability for rational thought. It does fit right in with all his other posts - both pitiful and pathetic.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Does this mean you think that whacking terrorists in the desert with a 223 is akin to Having a male lover? They weigh more than 50#. Kind of disrespectful to our armed forces.

This is a classic example of what I was talking about when I said above: "I'm also a strong proponent of "Experience" carrying a good bit of weight in a discussion. But..., not at the expense of common sense and a modicum of rational thought tossed in."

Here it is obvious the fool poster lacks both common sense and any ability for rational thought. It does fit right in with all his other posts - both pitiful and pathetic.

And this would be a classic case of an idiot with no experience trying to present himself as an authority on the subject at hand. Reminds me of the time you tried to give Chuck Nelson a lesson on how his pre-64 Winchester M70 was the biggest POS ever made. Of course the rifle in the picture was a left handed M70 Classic. We'll just mark this up as one more thing you don't have a clue about.

Have you noticed it's the people with no experience with the subject protesting the loudest?

Funny stuff.

TC1 wrote to Hot Core:

quote:

We'll just mark this up as one more thing you don't have a clue about.

That's getting to be quite a lengthy list...and growing by the minute.

In fact, Saeed may need to upgrade the server if that list is going to be stored here on AR...

Hot Core, I was wondering when you would weigh into this pathetic, childish, think of the women and children first, no balls justification of using less than reasonable bullet weighted rounds for hunting deer sized animals argument again. Welcome back.

Hey Mick, What is the difference between teanScum, tc1 and bobby tomek?

Answer: Just spelling of the names!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, What is the difference between teanScum, tc1 and bobby tomek?

Answer: Just spelling of the names!

I can see you’re fired up. Go for it!

Maybe one day you'll have some experience to draw from. Till then, experience trumps hersay and you will continue to be on the losing end of this debate.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey Mick, What is the difference between teanScum, tc1 and bobby tomek?

Answer: Just spelling of the names!

I can see you’re fired up. Go for it!

hard to "go for it" with no experience to draw from. He'll either come off as a troll or a dumbass. With you as his cheerleader what more could he ask for?

TC1, You’re a fool, the same as me. The only problem you have is you can’t see it.

TC1,,,, How many deer have you killed with the 223? I want to see the multitude of deer killed by your 223. Tell me about it.

MickinColo wrote to Hot Core:

quote:

I can see you’re fired up. Go for it!

Fired up he is...like a hot air balloon...and full of the same contents.

When he has nothing valid to contribute to a discussion, he goes on and on with namecalling and other blather -- and is about as predictable as a deep-pocketed politician in a money pit.

“Name calling and other blather”? I wish we could have a sensible decision on the topic but I don’t see that happening. Bobby, I think we could get along in hunting camp, just not here, or on this subject at this time.

Mick-

I think we are closer to agreeing than you realize.

This is part of my original post:

"While a .223 is far from my first, second or even third choice for hunting, there is absolutely no denying that on smaller deer, in the hands of a skilled and patient shooter and using proper projectiles, the .223 can and will take care of the task at hand -- and has successfully done so many times.

A couple of years ago, in what amounted to an ADC-type situation, I needed to take out several hogs which were bold enough to come into rather "civilized" areas. A cursory look at the situation told me that exits would have to be avoid at all costs, so I developed a load in a TC Contender .223 that was stout enough to make it through the rib cage and into the lungs yet fragile enough so that it would not exit.

I only took broadside, into-the-lungs presentations, and the little .223 worked like a charm -- and I didn't get a single exit.

I took out the offending parties without incident, and the longest any of them ran was perhaps 55-60 yards."

---

But then you get folks involved like Hot Core who admittedly have ZERO experience yet speaking in absolutes and name-calling in the process. From there, it degraded in a hurry.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Hot Core, I was wondering when you would weigh into this pathetic, childish, think of the women and children first, no balls justification of using less than reasonable bullet weighted rounds for hunting deer sized animals argument again. Welcome back.

Wow looks like Hotsh$t woke up from all the quotes from his lackeys. I always thought that if you wanted any sh$t from Hotsh$t all you had to do was squeeze his head!!!!!!

Excuse me... that was not polite of me to say that.

If you squeezed his head you would get sh$t and opinions but no EXPERIENCE, Seems like we keep coming back to that one HUH????

Mick, I guess if experience makes me a fool then I am one. I guess we'll never be able to have a rational conversation about the subject as long as people with no experience keep adding rediculous comments about something of which they are completely ignorant. I tried to take the high road and was called a liar for my trouble.

This may or may not surprise you but at one time I was on the other side of the isle on this subject. But, instead of becoming militant and digging in my heals I kept an open mind and tried it for myself. It's amazing how actual experience can change a mans mind. I found out very quickly the cartridge kills just as fast as any with a properly placed bullet. As a matter fact I consider it less of a stunt than either handgun or bow hunting. To some of you this is hard to believe but for those of us who have done it, we know from experience it's no big deal. This isn't the ultimate deer cartridge, it never was tauted as one but under the right conditions it's as good as any. If a hunter waits for the right conditions he'll enjoy much success with the .223


It's a damn shame things turned out like they did. If you would opened your mind and listened to people with experience with the subject at hand you could have learned something. At this point in time I don't see that happening.

I saw the this definition of Expert tonight and thought of this thread..I really don't want to play here but I just can't help myself..

Definition: Expert. Ex- means USED TO BE... SPURT means a drip under pressure. So an expert is a former drip under pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobby Tomek:
Mick-

I think we are closer to agreeing than you realize.

This is part of my original post:

"While a .223 is far from my first, second or even third choice for hunting, there is absolutely no denying that on smaller deer, in the hands of a skilled and patient shooter and using proper projectiles, the .223 can and will take care of the task at hand -- and has successfully done so many times.****

IMHO your statement is quite accurate The problem as I see it stems from most deer hunters thinking they are patient and skilled. Sadly, over the years, I've not found that to be true.Also there are those who would not limit 22 calibers to small deer and as a younger person I was guilty of that also. roger

a question is rising? how many percent of deers will runaway and gone lost after a solid hit in the heart lung area with a 223 loaded with a good permium bullet like nosler , bx. rhino, etc?is it more than average 30-30 or bigger calibers? and another question is if a deer will die faster with a wrong shot from a deer rifle than being hit with a 223 in right spot?

quote:

Originally posted by yes:
a question is rising? how many percent of deers will runaway and gone lost after a solid hit in the heart lung area with a 223 loaded with a good permium bullet like nosler , bx. rhino, etc?is it more than average 30-30 or bigger calibers?

Hey yes, You have gotten to the problem. Simply speaking facts, I've Killed more Deer than teanScum, tc1, and bobby will ever live to see. Don't mean it as a brag, which I'll leave for the other fellows to do.

Using a Partition on Deer is really not needed or wanted unless they are standing 1-2 rows deep in beans, or very close behind some light weed cover. Never used a BarnesX or a Rhino, so I can't say what they will do. Used a good many of the old original Fred Barnes Bullets and they performed great.

If you are using an Adequate Cartridge, which any Hunter with a basic modicum of knowledge will do, the good old Standard Grade Bullets work great on Deer. Always have and always will.

Where the problem comes in is, as the Bullet Diameter and Impact Velocity go down, the Game just doesn't die as quickly when you compare thousands of heads of Game. Even moving from a 7mm-08 down to a 243Win will show the difference "if" the Hunter has enough actual first hand experience Killing Game - which I do.

That is why it is so funny for me to see the above fools talk about how well their 22cals Kill when they base their vast experience on a few Deer. They harp about Experience, and yet they don't have enough to know what they are talking about - aka fools.

quote:

and another question is if a deer will die faster with a wrong shot from a deer rifle than being hit with a 223 in right spot?

A wrong shot is never a good thing regardless of the Caliber. And an Inadequate Cartridge in the right spot will Kill, but not nearly as well, when thousands are compared, as an Adequate Cartridge will. Just that simple.
-----

Thoughts for the day. Is it better to buy a rag pre-64 M70 and spend 10x on it, to get it to shoot "almost as well" as a box stock Remington or Savage which costs "x" to start with? Is a person who does so a fool?

Would you want to sit next to tc1, bobby or teanScum when they are at the range? I figure they all have the same basic reloading "knowledge" as they do actual Hunting Experience.

Hot Core wrote:

quote:

That is why it is so funny for me to see the above fools talk about how well their 22cals Kill when they base their vast experience on a few Deer. They harp about Experience, and yet they don't have enough to know what they are talking about - aka fools.

AND YOU ADMITTEDLY HAVE ZERO EXPERIENCE. So in your own assessment, that makes you the real FOOL.

Come back when you actually have something worthwhile to contribute. Otherwise, save your hot air for a balloon.

Hotcore:

I'd like to know how and when you killed thousands of whitetails? What round did you use?

Hot Core wrote:

quote:

Where the problem comes in is, as the Bullet Diameter and Impact Velocity go down, the Game just doesn't die as quickly when you compare thousands of heads of Game. Even moving from a 7mm-08 down to a 243Win will show the difference "if" the Hunter has enough actual first hand experience Killing Game - which I do.

Yes, Hot Core, as Gatogordo asked, please detail your killing of thousands of head of game.

And remember, playing Cabela's Big Game Hunts on the TV in your house does not count...

By the way, did you ever get the information you were looking for? You know...the question regarding .22 caliber bullets least likely to ricochet -- information that even a NOVICE .22 caliber centerfire user would know???

TC1

quote:

Mick, I guess if experience makes me a fool then I am one. I guess we'll never be able to have a rational conversation about the subject as long as people with no experience keep adding rediculous comments about something of which they are completely ignorant. I tried to take the high road and was called a liar for my trouble.

I’m not completely ignorant about 22s, It’s been my favorite caliber for many years. Hornet, 223, 22-250, and Swift are the ones I own at this time. Back in our late teens, I watched a friend fill his doe tag with a 22 LR. According to my dad, my grandfather used a 22 LR to take a number of deer. We’ve used the 22 LR to slaughter hogs and cattle. Although it’s my favorite caliber I don’t worship at its throne. I’ve used 22s to kill everything from grasshoppers to large feral dogs (probably bigger than most eastern whitetails) and I’ve seen its limitations first hand.

I think if you look back through this thread, you’ll find that I have not said that the 22s “would not” kill deer. That would be stupid (if I did I was drinking when I said it). How many critters (humans mostly) in the 100-200 pound range have been killed since the M-16 was introduced? I even remember a few tigers falling prey to the M-16. God only knows how many other large animals have been killed with the 223 over the years.

I have said that it’s not the best choice. I have also said in other threads (not this one) that it’s inadequate. Those comments have nothing to do with the rounds themselves, after all we agree that they kill deer, but rather on the environments I hunt in (my experience).

I’ve noticed that a lot of people back east spend most of the fall and half the winter hunting. I’ve heard about people taking up to 8 deer in a year. Some people are lucky in those regards. We have no such luxury here. This year I have from sunrise on November 11th until sunset on November 16th to fill my doe and cow elk tags (that’s it, that’s all folks). I have 6 days with competition from other hunters to make those kills. I’m not going to take a rifle (such as the 223) that before I even step in the field has already set unnecessary limitations on my shot selections. I need a round that bucks wind, and hits hard past 300 yards if need be.

Our combined deer season is 4 months here in Mississippi with a bag limit of 8 deer and I don't have to pay to hunt. I never bag limit out on deer because I eat what I shoot and 8 is just more than I can consume in a year. There is never any pressure to shoot and I have enough experience to know when to leave safety in the on position. For me in my situation the .223 has worked like a charm.

I never saw the it as a question of it being the best. There is no best. I saw at as a question of weather the .223 could kill whitetail deer cleanly and humainly in the hands of an experienced knowledgable hunter. My answer has been yes it can. Use the right bullets and good shot placement and it's just as leathal as any other round. I know it can because I've done it. Whitetail deer just aren't hard to kill.

Mick, you've stayed pretty level headed though this but you are guilty of cheering on some of these idiots on this thread. You agged on HotCore into his last dumbass reply. I hope you weren't expecting something witty or even knowledgable, the guy is a moron

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
For me in my situation the .223 has worked like a charm.

I never saw the it as a question of it being the best. There is no best. I saw as a question of weather the the .223 could kill whitetail deer cleanly and humainly in the hands of an experienced knowledgable hunter. My answer has been yes it can. Use the right bullets and good shot placement and it's just as leathal as any other round. I know it can because I've done it. Whitetail deer just aren't hard to kill.

Mick, the guy is a moron

So, then what exactly is your problem?

I think I get it. You just like trolling for the opportunity to call others morons or idiots or something not nice.

IMO, you would be doing us all a great service by just taking your fantastic 223 and going hunting to gain more experience and leaving the real discussion to those who are able to have a discussion without demeaning others. Looks to me like most agree with the excerpt quoted from you post anyway.

I think you just like phuking with people, and you have no valid opinion other than you like to hunt deer with a 223. That being the case, where is the problem? Why are you so defensive?

I just arranged for three hunts this season, two for deer and one for hogs, and figure on more. The decision of which rifle to use isn't that easy, but for sure it will be a real deer rifle, like this great 308 I just acquired, or maybe the 6.5x55 Husqvarna that I got a few months ago.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I just arranged for three hunts this season, two for deer and one for hogs, and figure on more. The decision of which rifle to use isn't that easy, but for sure it will be a real deer rifle,
KB

I'm so happy you can now tell the difference between something real and something you've only imagined. Or seen on a TV show.
Seriously, here's my favorite quote of yours again.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Since I don't shoot that caliber of bullet I'm not thoroughly familiar with them.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
you have no valid opinion other than you like to hunt deer with a 223.
KB

This is just too funny.
Isn't the title of this thread ? "223 For Whitetail"

Again I'll ask you KB, "What do you do for a living?" I'm sure I can become an expert in a few minutes by watching a video on it.

I love the internet and this is a great forum. Finally I see the light, I am buying a Ruger 375 for deer and not looking back.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
you have no valid opinion other than you like to hunt deer with a 223.
KB

This is just too funny.
Isn't the title of this thread ? "223 For Whitetail"

Again I'll ask you KB, "What do you do for a living?" I'm sure I can become an expert in a few minutes by watching a video on it.

Yea - 223 for whitetail - opinion expressed - zee end. What's your problem too?

What I do to make a living is none of your business. It seems to me that just because a gunsmith can make a 223, doesn't necessarily make him an expert on its external ballistics, any more than any other person who studies the matter.

Oh yea, I forget the name of that motel - you know the one advertised saying those who stay there become an expert overnight. Well that's the one I stayed in sometime last year, and the great info I leared was on the TV in the room there. Certainly that qualifies.

KB

KB
Why is it that the less experience you have about a subject the stronger opinion and more posts you have concerning it?

Want to talk Mausers? I'm sure your strong opinions will help me further my career far beyond my wildest imagination.

The thread that just won't die...

maybe the moderator will tire of all the back and forth and just close this thread...

it seems to bring out the worst in some people..

wanna sling derogatory remarks at others?

you'll love the political forum

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
KB
Why is it that the less experience you have about a subject the stronger opinion and more posts you have concerning it?

Want to talk Mausers? I'm sure your strong opinions will help me further my career far beyond my wildest imagination.

I'm wondering why it is so important to you and some others to discredit my opinion and the opinions of others. Who says I have less experience? Measured against strong opinions? I think that would be you.

The facts are I have experience, and I have an opinion, and I expressed it. Seems pretty simple to me. I don't go wild on this forum, expressing opinion about just anything. Part of the reason I bother to express my opinion on the subject of the 223 is because others like you get so wound up about it, and aren't satisfied with just expressing your own opinion, but you get mean about it, like I stepped on your dick or something. Certainly this is not something that is safe to discuss in person because of the crazy passion and emotion, but from the relative safety of the internet, about all that is left of a bulley is a good fart in the wind, when all he has is words to work with.

Sometimes I like discussing Mausers, but right now I think there would be little value in it for me, and probably you already know it all anyway.

KB

.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Who says I have less experience? ...

The facts are I have experience,

Again, I'm just saying based on my limited experience

I'm making a distinction here between belief and opinion

I think I have and many others have acknowledged that the 223 is up to the task

I have toyed with 223 ownership for years, and just can't do it

Since I don't shoot that caliber of bullet I'm not thoroughly familiar with them.

I try to choose my words carefully

sometimes I push the line a bit. On one or two occasions I may have crossed the line a lot, but not this time.

Some people just won't make the right choice, and have to be legislated into ethics.

you have no valid opinion other than you like to hunt deer with a 223.

Either this guy is shooting a magic wand or that statment just is certainly not the truth

I think I made a mistake in engaging in this discussion

I was watching a show on the outdoor channel
KB

That's right, make a quote and cut it off in mid-sentence to skew a point. I'm flattered that your are reading and searching all my old posts.

Whaat - now you are going to try to convince us that you don't watch TV, and because of that your opinion is somehow more valid? Or is it that you watch TV but don't ever have what you see there, in some portion, contribute to an opinion? As far as I can figure, maybe you just watch the cartoon channel, in which case I can understand?

I like the myth busters show. Although not on TV, this discussion is somewhat of a myth buster - the myth being that the 223 is a real deer rifle.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Who says I have less experience? ...

The facts are I have experience,

Again, I'm just saying based on my limited experience

I'm making a distinction here between belief and opinion

I think I have and many others have acknowledged that the 223 is up to the task

I have toyed with 223 ownership for years, and just can't do it

Since I don't shoot that caliber of bullet I'm not thoroughly familiar with them.

I try to choose my words carefully

sometimes I push the line a bit. On one or two occasions I may have crossed the line a lot, but not this time.

Some people just won't make the right choice, and have to be legislated into ethics.

you have no valid opinion other than you like to hunt deer with a 223.

Either this guy is shooting a magic wand or that statment just is certainly not the truth

I think I made a mistake in engaging in this discussion

I was watching a show on the outdoor channel
KB

TFF!

Sums up his whole argument.

Terry