quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
OK, but folks like that are unlikely to listen to either of us.

Yup! I have to agree with you on that.

PS

“There seem to be three positions on the 223 issue:

1. Folks that never did and never will.

2. Folks that do all it the time successfully.

3. Folks that have done it successfully but use more gun out of preference.”

There is a fourth category:

4. Folks that can’t. There are states (at least one anyway) were it’s illegal to use less than a 6mm on deer.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
OK, but folks like that are unlikely to listen to either of us.

Yup! I have to agree with you on that.

PS

“There seem to be three positions on the 223 issue:

1. Folks that never did and never will.

2. Folks that do all it the time successfully.

3. Folks that have done it successfully but use more gun out of preference.”

There is a fourth category:

4. Folks that can’t. There are states (at least one anyway) were it’s illegal to use less than a 6mm on deer.

You missed at least one other

Those that have with mixed results.
This was me in the 60s when I lived in Grand junction. Started with the 22 Varminter; had some good and some bad on mule deer.
Built the 6mmx270 IMP. Mule deer with the right bullet fantastic, mule deer with normally great cup and core ** not so good. Elk? DISASTER!
25-06 IMP on mule deer was a real mixed bag.Sorry GHD, but that's the way it was moving West.
Now one might say that this thread was slanted toward white tails and not mule deer. Quite so, but let me point out that the biggest deer killed in the US was a 409 # white tail in Maine.
My limited experience indicates to me that as a general rule for the average hunter it is not prudent if he or she takes to the field with the intent of killing deer with a 22 caliber rifle or pistol.
In time of need I've fed the familly with deer killed cleanly with a 22 long rifle. I will not ,however, indicated that the Rim fires are the thing to use on an evening hunt.
I addmitt you can drive a 1/4' slotted round head screw with a 3/16" blade screw driver*** but why would you want to do that when it is more sensable to use the right tool? roger

Bartsche, You invited a lot of trouble on yourself with your post.

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:

My limited experience indicates to me that as a general rule for the average hunter it is not prudent if he or she takes to the field with the intent of killing deer with a 22 caliber rifle or pistol.

My experience indicates to me that, as a general rule, the average hunter it is not prudent nor particularly accurate in shot choice or placement. People who are accurate and choose their shots do fine with .223 more often than not. This is of course limiting but then so is any choice of implement for any animal hunted. The laws and belly aching about whether or not .223 is an adequate Whitetail round are because of the fact that most people over-estimate their abilities/aptitudes needed to hunt successfully. I'm as guilty as anyone of taking shots I shouldn't have and missing shots I should have made over the years as anyone, though I like to think my aim and judgement have improved over the past many decades, so I'm not being sanctimonious here.

Within their performance envelopes, all of the 22s can kill a deer short of perhaps CB caps. Whether or not it's a good idea to try it, provided it isn't against game laws, should be determined on a case by case basis by a person that doesn't kid themselves about their abilities and judgment. Those people are hard to find, unfortunately.

Perhaps one could look at it like proper bow hunters look at the world? No matter how much money they spend on gear and how good they are, there are arrows they shouldn't let fly and they're OK with that limitation.

And might I add, ducking behind cover?


I propose it's now time to go around the merry go rounder with "are head shots acceptable on deer?" Just for a change of pace. It fits in with the 22 "theme".

I think Kabluewy, bartsche, and Precision Man, and a few others can hold their own in a war of words. They sure as h_ll don’t need me.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I love all the stupid people that have never used something explaining how it ain't no good.

People are idiots.

You may think me an idiot because I haven’t shot a deer with a 22 and voice my opinion about it. That’s OK, I don’t have to shot a deer to imagine that it’s not the best choice for an all around deer rifle nor do I need to hit my thumb with a hammer to imagine that it would hurt. I don’t worry about the sportsmen and marksmen here on Accurate Reloading. I’m sure you’ll recognize the limitations of the round and hunt/shoot accordingly. I’m concerned about the real idiots that will hang on every word of the 22 caliber advocates. A lot of these people are of the mindset that if it’s good for 100 yards it’s good for 400. And that rule applies to any 224-chambered rifle no matter how broken down it is. If you’ve shot for any length of time you know of or have ran into them many times.

Let’s take a 223 Remington, topped with a 53 grain Barnes TSX FB, shot out of a 24-inch barrel (sighted in at 200 yards), and pushed at a moderate speed of 2950 fps. Once it gets to 400 yards it has dropped almost 33 inches, and is speeding along at 1400 fps, and has a whooping 230 ft-lbs of energy left. Can it kill a deer? Hell yes but you better be on target.

Let’s compare the 223 Remington to a 243 Winchester (which I have used on deer and antelope). I think most people would agree the 243 has a fairly mild recoil. Because everyone is excited about the TSX I’ll use the 85-grain TSX BT pushed a moderate speed 3000 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. Seems like the 243 has dropped 21 inches, is speeding along at 1985 fps, and has a punch of 744 ft-lbs.

If we compare those 2 rounds with what some people consider a true “classic deer round”, the 257 Roberts, with a 24” barrel, using the 100-grain TSX BT pushed at the moderate speed of 2800 fps. We see a drop of 24 inches at 400 yards, it’s still speeding along at 1490 fps, and punching away with 793 ft-lbs of energy left.



What does all this mean? It means absolutely squat! It means that I have computer programs. And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.

Methinks much is lost on you. Not bragging, just stating fact. Much humor in the retards that because they can't open a pickle jar without directions they figure no one else can.

Got anything else besides guesses? Knowing trumps guessing, but you can only guess at that (that one is free, the rest are gonna cost you dearly)

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:


You missed at least one other

Those that have with mixed results.
This was me in the 60s when I lived in Grand junction.

Damn, Roger! That was almost 50 years ago. A lot has changes since the war, son

Bullets ain't changed any since the 60's, nor has the Edsel he's driving.


Hope you didn't have a bad go with women in the 60's.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
I love all the stupid people that have never used something explaining how it ain't no good.

People are idiots.

You may think me an idiot because I haven’t shot a deer with a 22 and voice my opinion about it. That’s OK, I don’t have to shot a deer to imagine that it’s not the best choice for an all around deer rifle nor do I need to hit my thumb with a hammer to imagine that it would hurt. I don’t worry about the sportsmen and marksmen here on Accurate Reloading. I’m sure you’ll recognize the limitations of the round and hunt/shoot accordingly. I’m concerned about the real idiots that will hang on every word of the 22 caliber advocates. A lot of these people are of the mindset that if it’s good for 100 yards it’s good for 400. And that rule applies to any 224-chambered rifle no matter how broken down it is. If you’ve shot for any length of time you know of or have ran into them many times.

Let’s take a 223 Remington, topped with a 53 grain Barnes TSX FB, shot out of a 24-inch barrel (sighted in at 200 yards), and pushed at a moderate speed of 2950 fps. Once it gets to 400 yards it has dropped almost 33 inches, and is speeding along at 1400 fps, and has a whooping 230 ft-lbs of energy left. Can it kill a deer? Hell yes but you better be on target.

Let’s compare the 223 Remington to a 243 Winchester (which I have used on deer and antelope). I think most people would agree the 243 has a fairly mild recoil. Because everyone is excited about the TSX I’ll use the 85-grain TSX BT pushed a moderate speed 3000 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. Seems like the 243 has dropped 21 inches, is speeding along at 1985 fps, and has a punch of 744 ft-lbs.

If we compare those 2 rounds with what some people consider a true “classic deer round”, the 257 Roberts, with a 24” barrel, using the 100-grain TSX BT pushed at the moderate speed of 2800 fps. We see a drop of 24 inches at 400 yards, it’s still speeding along at 1490 fps, and punching away with 793 ft-lbs of energy left.



What does all this mean? It means absolutely squat! It means that I have computer programs. And it has about as much credibility as some bragger claiming that he has shot 100s of deer with a 223.

Methinks much is lost on you. Not bragging, just stating fact. Much humor in the retards that because they can't open a pickle jar without directions they figure no one else can.

Got anything else besides guesses? Knowing trumps guessing, but you can only guess at that (that one is free, the rest are gonna cost you dearly)

Yes in deed, me thinks much is lost in you. All you can see is your valor but nothing of your deed which is more feat than valor.

Yep, a real stunt. If it helps you sleep better at night I used a 25 caliber (250AI) for my last bear.

Funny, you can add .019" in diameter to a bullet and 10 more grains and suddenly it's an acceptable deer slayer.

Guessing the concept of watching everything unfold through the scope is lost on you, or flinging thousands of 223AI's downwind throughout the year helping.

Killing deer is easy, drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies. Nothing magical about it but I'm sure you could phuck that up also.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Yep, a real stunt. If it helps you sleep better at night I used a 25 caliber (250AI) for my last bear.

Funny, you can add .019" in diameter to a bullet and 10 more grains and suddenly it's an acceptable deer slayer.

Guessing the concept of watching everything unfold through the scope is lost on you, or flinging thousands of 223AI's downwind throughout the year helping.

Killing deer is easy, drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies. Nothing magical about it but I'm sure you could phuck that up also.

Keep typing Ketchikan, I’ll remember all you’re saying down the road. A 250 AI? Interesting. But it does play into your mindset of using the least amount of power you can when trying to kill something.

Cuzz I spent years killing shit with a 30/06 and 35 Whelen and I finally realized that with the bullets we have, and with proper placement, killing shit ain't difficult.

For the record deer shot with the 30/06 have traveled further than deer shot with a 223AI. This shit ain't tough but keep trying to make it so, I'm sure that will help you sleep at night.

Also find it funny +P that you use the word 'POWER' when describing my mindset on killing. Here's another hint for ya, power don't kill critters. Give me enough velocity for the bullet to properly expand, or a big cast bullet that don't, and I'll kill critters all day long.

Better run, you're new Field & Stream magazine is waiting for you.

quote:

For the record deer shot with the 30/06 have traveled further than deer shot with a 223AI. This shit ain't tough but keep trying to make it so, I'm sure that will help you sleep at night.

Can you site the study for me, I’m having trouble finding it on Google.

To tell the true Ketchikan, you’re a hell of a lot more fun than Field & Stream. You are a pit bull for sure, wrong in some ways right in others but a pit bull non the less.

No google fu used in any of this, it's a novel concept to actually have experience with something for some folks.

I don't give a flip what someone wants to use and don't want to use. If they had a bad LSD experience in the 60's and can't get their brain around the fact that bullets have changed, that is fine by me and may Elmer Keith meet them at the Pearly Gates.

When someone says that it's a 'stunt' and throws words like 'energy' and 'power' around without having a clue about it, GoDaddy.com not withstanding, don't endear me much.

Got no bones if you don't want to use one, but don't assume for a moment it's a stunt or because if you can't type with 10 fingers whilst conveying an intelligent thought don't mean others can't.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
gumboot458

quote:

So , by this logic you hunt Elk with a 460 Whby and would have to use at least a 600 OK as a min. for Brown bear .. And would need wheeled artillery for Elephant .

I think you’ll find a long list of calibers and cartridges between 22 and 460-600 that work just fine on deer. Don’t overstate my position on the subject, it undermines your argument.

“The 22 caliber boys have too much emotional capital wrapped up in their justifications and arguments for the use of 22s on deer sized animals.” When you overstate my position, you show your emotions. Myself, on the other hand? I don’t feel the need to defend my choice of calibers or cartridges.

.

.
/. Whats the yammering about emotional capitol .. Shooting a deer isn,t like hunting brown bear in thick brush , where you have to get some real work done on the animal or you may start to bleed and no make it out of the brush ,,,, Shooting a deer is just that . If the depth of penetration , and expansion is there , what is the difference between a 223 , 53 gr tsx @ 3150 fps , or a 44 mag. 240 @ 1350 fps .. They both make simular wound channels ......
. Ketchikan is right in that people shouldn,t try LONG shots on deer with a 223 ... But 90 % of the deer I,ve shot were under 100 yards . So that isn,t a problem ........... Are the 30/30 hunters going to say there we told you .. They arn,t worth a hoot much past 150 yards max ...................

quote:

I don’t have to shoot a deer to imagine that it’s not the best choice for an all around deer rifle nor do I need to hit my thumb with a hammer to imagine that it would hurt.

Forgive me but shall have to disagree on your hammer and thumb theory. We have all done stuff to lead us to the belief that a hammer on the thumb is gonna hurt! (Mostly, actually hitting our thumbs with a hammer). Perhaps likewise with 223 cals? I had serious doubts about using a hornet on feral goat but I tried it causiously and found it to be quite adequate. From that I have learned that feral goat is the largest animal the hornet is adequate on. (Head shots do not come into my picture!) Point is, we all have experiences that tell us that an undersize screwdriver will get the job done but almost always with damage to the screw and often to the screwdriver too!

Just yesterday I was on a vermin control excursion with two fellows using 22LR's on feral goat while I had my 25. The first shot fired was a DRT - brain shot (note that I did not say head shot). That was followed by vollies of 22LR fire and wounded goats that eventually looked like sieves and finally died. I shot two - pole-axed them. But the 22LR's worked - if one can call shooting six goats with 30 shots, working! One of the goats had an almost healed previous 22LR wound! (I had no say in the matter - I do not condone it! I saw for myself that the 22LR is inadequate for feral goat!)

Ketchikan, thanks for the graphs. The 223 velocity with the 53 grainer is somewhat lower than one would expect from a 223. (But the thread question was on the 223, not bullet choice and velocity).

quote:

Those that have with mixed results.

Bartsche, my companions will tell us that a 22LR works. They will even tell that I saw how it works! (But of course, I say i saw how poorly it works!) Hee hee... it's a bit like my 1/4 MOA 3-shot group - one out of six. The worst was 3 MOA but I won't tell you about that one!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I think Kabluewy, bartsche, and Precision Man, and a few others can hold their own in a war of words. They sure as h_ll don’t need me.

Not to point out the obvious but I guess I should have made my list longer and added another point.

Some of us own and live on property with deer on it, live in states where you get to shoot more than one of them a year so shooting a deer is about as novel as shooting a rabbit or a rat, and might be out during deer season with a firearm looking for something other than deer or not even hunting anything at all and come upon a legitimate shot opportunity on one within the performance envelope of something other than whatever the hell the "ideal deer rifle and cartridge" is. Might even be a handgun we have with us. I've got a .223AckImp Contender that often rides around for coyote purposes.

If the freezer is low and the deer is there presenting a good shot, the deer can go in the back of the truck and then the freezer.

If you're coming down to Texas and spending expensive out of state fees to go on a whitetail hunt and have trophy wall hanger stars in your eyes, I wouldn't suggest going out of your way to aim to hunt with a smaller centerfire and many land owners won't let you. Hell, I probably wouldn't let you unless I knew you and your abilities well.

OTOH: I buy my Super-Combo license every year, it's my land, and I'll shoot a deer with whatever I feel like that's legal if there's freezer room and the shot op is good. I also pass up a lot of shots under almost the same circumstances. What you allow on your own land is your call.

Neighbor sells hog hunts. He lets some people archery hunt hogs and others he won't. Same with handgun hunting. There's testing involved in both cases. I reckon on my land I tested myself and since I feed 'em they're my deer anyway. Incidentally, one of the nicer deer he's taken on his ranch was out the kitchen window with a 1911 because it just happened to work out that way.

Some people have a glorified ideal of what hunting to them should be and it's their mystical primal woods experience that must be done "just so", some just like to shoot paper, some like to build guns, some are pretty utilitarian with a farmer/rancher/game management approach. Lots of room and overlap in between. You're never going to get everybody to agree anymore than you're ever gonna get the whole world to go to the same church so if you wish to bother trying you're just pissing up a rope with no chance of success. Knock yourselves out. Long after everybody on this thread is dead people will still be taking deer with 22s, sometimes wisely and sometimes unwisely. Some people don't think .243 is acceptable for deer but a hell of a lot of deer have been killed with 'em. .22LR has, legally or not, probably killed as many deer as any other cartridge for that matter.

Yep, the shit ain't difficult, drill the shoulders with a good bullet and critter dies.


Deer die pretty damn easy.

The 223 Remington with a 55 grain Hornady Spire Point will kill a deer just as dead as a 416 Remington Magnum will.

You just have to make sure that you place your shot.
High shoulder shots are deadly right now and through the rib shots are deadly in a few seconds!

This is always a go-no-go topic.
100th post at this time.

quote:

Whats the yammering about emotional capitol .. Shooting a deer isn,t like hunting brown bear in thick brush , where you have to get some real work done on the animal or you may start to bleed and no make it out of the brush

I don’t think I stuttered, I meant just what I say. Every time this subject comes around people get fired up and it turns into a pissing contest. I have stated that 22s will kill deer. I don’t think they’re the best choice for hunting larger sized deer. People disagree with that, you’re one of them.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Cuzz I spent years killing shit with a 30/06 and 35 Whelen and I finally realized that with the bullets we have, and with proper placement, killing shit ain't difficult. ...

Your parents must be really proud of your language skills.

So, Ketchikan and Chuck, if it's so simple, why all this discussion? One uses bullets designed to exit, and the other uses bullets designed to explode? I'm also wondering why is it that most of the deer I've seen others wound and let get away were shot with some variant of the 22 cal centerfires? One explanation is simply that you guys don't count the ones that ran off wounded. Denial gone amuck or whatever.
I am tempted to ask what is your ratio of lost deer shot to the ones brought home? But I know that is a circular conversation, because losses are always a result of poor shot placment or other human error - right?

KB

I've never lost a deer shot with a 223AI, hell I've never had one go more than 5 yards. None of my pards that use it have lost one either.

Again, I know it's difficult for folks with limited abilities to believe otherwise. Please continue on.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Cuzz I spent years killing shit with a 30/06 and 35 Whelen and I finally realized that with the bullets we have, and with proper placement, killing shit ain't difficult. ...

Your parents must be really proud of your language skills.

Only knew my father but he told me my mom was a drunken Carolina whore. I'd like to think not but always assume that anyone out there might be a brother of mine.

quote:

Originally posted by 303Guy:

quote:

I don’t have to shoot a deer to imagine that it’s not the best choice for an all around deer rifle nor do I need to hit my thumb with a hammer to imagine that it would hurt.

Forgive me but shall have to disagree on your hammer and thumb theory. We have all done stuff to lead us to the belief that a hammer on the thumb is gonna hurt! (Mostly, actually hitting our thumbs with a hammer). Perhaps likewise with 223 cals? I had serious doubts about using a hornet on feral goat but I tried it causiously and found it to be quite adequate. From that I have learned that feral goat is the largest animal the hornet is adequate on. (Head shots do not come into my picture!) Point is, we all have experiences that tell us that an undersize screwdriver will get the job done but almost always with damage to the screw and often to the screwdriver too!

Just yesterday I was on a vermin control excursion with two fellows using 22LR's on feral goat while I had my 25. The first shot fired was a DRT - brain shot (note that I did not say head shot). That was followed by vollies of 22LR fire and wounded goats that eventually looked like sieves and finally died. I shot two - pole-axed them. But the 22LR's worked - if one can call shooting six goats with 30 shots, working! One of the goats had an almost healed previous 22LR wound! (I had no say in the matter - I do not condone it! I saw for myself that the 22LR is inadequate for feral goat!)

Ketchikan, thanks for the graphs. The 223 velocity with the 53 grainer is somewhat lower than one would expect from a 223. (But the thread question was on the 223, not bullet choice and velocity).

quote:

Those that have with mixed results.

Bartsche, mmey companions will tell us that a 22LR works. They will even tell that I saw how it works! (But of course, I say i saw how poorly it works!) Hee hee... it's a bit like my 1/4 MOA 3-shot group - one out of six. The worst was 3 MOA but I won't tell you about that one!

I tried to stay out of this topic until it changed direction. Then I made the statement that offended gumboot458. Then the emotions set in and it all when “south” from there.


“That was followed by vollies of 22LR fire and wounded goats that eventually looked like sieves and finally died.”

No reasonable, ethical person likes to hear stories like that. Sorry you had to experience it.

Actually the graphs were mine. The external ballistics for all 3 rounds were set in the middle of short list of powders. In those lists there were powders that drove them faster and slower but I wasn’t trying to show favor for one round over the other. Looking back now I probably should have used the maximum velocities from those different powder groups.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
So, Ketchikan and Chuck, if it's so simple, why all this discussion? One uses bullets designed to exit, and the other uses bullets designed to explode? I'm also wondering why is it that most of the deer I've seen others wound and let get away were shot with some variant of the 22 cal centerfires? One explanation is simply that you guys don't count the ones that ran off wounded. Denial gone amuck or whatever.
I am tempted to ask what is your ratio of lost deer shot to the ones brought home? But I know that is a circular conversation, because losses are always a result of poor shot placment or other human error - right?

KB

Well, if you're gonna call bullshit on their version of things, I'll call bullshit that you know "most" of the deer you've seen run off were shot with 22 centerfires. If you saw one in your life, it was "all". More to the point, if you saw less that several dozen run off it would be statistically meaningless. In fact, if you've seen enough wounded deer run off to make a statistically valid analysis you run with a low crowd, indeed.

And who the hell can tell anything from a lost deer? If it's lost, by definition the mode of failure will never be known.

Third, trying to win an argument by vilifing your opponent ("One explanation is simply that you guys don't count the ones that ran off wounded. Denial gone amuck or whatever.") simply means you have no useable facts to support your own position and you resort to childish name calling.

In defense of 22s (I never thought I would ever say that) every year I come across an antelope or 2 that are just all shot to hell but they’re still standing. How they managed to get away from the hunters, I have no idea. Those old prehistoric goats can take some serious hits at times and keep running. In Colorado it’s illegal to use 22s on big game so the goats were shot with something bigger than 224. Bad shooting is bad shooting no matter the caliber.

quote:

every year I come across a antelope or 2

Last year was the first year in many that I didn’t have to mercy kill an antelope. So I can’t truly say every year.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

every year I come across a antelope or 2

Last year was the first year in many that I didn’t have to mercy kill an antelope. So I can’t truly say every year.

I'd wager I come across more animals with arrows stuck in 'em, some dead some alive-mostly dead, than you come across mis-shot rifle shot critters on an annual basis.

As to antelopes. I shot a Steenbok, a not at all very big antelope of African persuasion, once with a 350 grain .375 H&H load. Blew most of his heart and lungs well clear of his port side into the weeds. Sumbitch got up and made it about seven hobbled but reasonably bounding steps for his condition before he fell dead. His momma must have been raped by a cape buff to produce him. Another case of "using the rifle in hand" as I wasn't looking for little antelopes that day...

My dad has always hunted prongs over here with his .22-250 and they always just fall over with one in the boiler room. Go figure. I've used a number of things on them and never had any go very far if they went anywhere at all. That little African dude was tough!

Lawn darts will typically drop them on the spot.

quote:

Originally posted by Precision Man:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

every year I come across a antelope or 2

Last year was the first year in many that I didn’t have to mercy kill an antelope. So I can’t truly say every year.

I'd wager I come across more animals with arrows stuck in 'em, some dead some alive-mostly dead, than you come across mis-shot rifle shot critters on an annual basis.

As to antelopes. I shot a Steenbok, a not at all very big antelope of African persuasion, once with a 350 grain .375 H&H load. Blew most of his heart and lungs well clear of his port side into the weeds. Sumbitch got up and made it about seven hobbled but reasonably bounding steps for his condition before he fell dead. His momma must have been raped by a cape buff to produce him. Another case of "using the rifle in hand" as I wasn't looking for little antelopes that day...

My dad has always hunted prongs over here with his .22-250 and they always just fall over with one in the boiler room. Go figure. I've used a number of things on them and never had any go very far if they went anywhere at all. That little African dude was tough!

No doubt there are a number that are arrowed and not recovered every year. How many that would be? I have no idea. On the ranches I’ve hunted the last 15 years, I shoot P Dogs during their season and I’ve never seen an archery hunter out there. Not enough water out there for them to shoot over.

I hunt with a group of guys and we have never had any problem putting them on the ground most are DRT or manage to run a couple of yards. Even the worst shot in the group has never had one get away from him. Makes me wonder what the H_ll! was going on with the ones I had to put down over the years.

One thing I’ve noticed besides poor marksmanship, is that a lot of these guys can’t judge distance worth a darn. I’ve seen guys shooting at antelope from one section fence to the other (1 mile). But I never say anything about it or ask the question, “what the H_ll do you think you’re doing!?” I try not to piss off a man with a gun in his hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Ketchikan:
Cuzz I spent years killing shit with a 30/06 and 35 Whelen and I finally realized that with the bullets we have, and with proper placement, killing shit ain't difficult. ...

Your parents must be really proud of your language skills.

Only knew my father but he told me my mom was a drunken Carolina whore. I'd like to think not but always assume that anyone out there might be a brother of mine.

Wonderful!!!!!!!

Now That is funny

All I will say on the subject is"" WHAT I HAVE SEEN WITH MY OWN EYES""( caps for effct,,not shouting) biggest walrus I ever saw shot 1nc with .223 DRT,,polarbear shot thru the chest with .22Hornet ,dead in less than min.,,moose bull shot with both,,diff. animals,,1 with .22H DRT,,1 with .223 went 25 yrd.s.
On other side of page,,seen Tx. hill country ""antlered puppys"" to sask. whitetails so big you could plow with 'em,,shot with everything else you can imagine, act every way you can think of after bein' shot,,,and have come to 1 conclusion,,if what you got ,does it's part when you do your part the way you should,,the way it should,,,...............well you get the idea!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
So, Ketchikan and Chuck, if it's so simple, why all this discussion? One uses bullets designed to exit, and the other uses bullets designed to explode? I'm also wondering why is it that most of the deer I've seen others wound and let get away were shot with some variant of the 22 cal centerfires? One explanation is simply that you guys don't count the ones that ran off wounded. Denial gone amuck or whatever.
I am tempted to ask what is your ratio of lost deer shot to the ones brought home? But I know that is a circular conversation, because losses are always a result of poor shot placment or other human error - right?

KB

Well, if you're gonna call bullshit on their version of things, I'll call bullshit that you know "most" of the deer you've seen run off were shot with 22 centerfires. If you saw one in your life, it was "all". More to the point, if you saw less that several dozen run off it would be statistically meaningless. In fact, if you've seen enough wounded deer run off to make a statistically valid analysis you run with a low crowd, indeed.

And who the hell can tell anything from a lost deer? If it's lost, by definition the mode of failure will never be known.

Third, trying to win an argument by vilifing your opponent ("One explanation is simply that you guys don't count the ones that ran off wounded. Denial gone amuck or whatever.") simply means you have no useable facts to support your own position and you resort to childish name calling.

You are using words that I didn't use to intrepret my meaning - such as "bullshit", "vilifing", "childish name calling".

Once, on the last extended discussion of this subject, I wrote a couple of examples most stuck in my memory about deer lost with 223 or most notably with a 22 hornet. I tried to keep it short with just two examples. Of course it did no good, and those who chose to merely dismissed it with whatever rationilization of their choosing. I see no point in doing that again.

My point is that this phenomenon IMO can not be explained except to count in the factors of human subjectivity and filtering of facts. If you want to call that "bullshit", go ahead. It is what it is, and humans do strange things with facts.

As to making it personal - I try to choose my words carefully so as not to do that, but as with any pointed discussion, sometimes I push the line a bit. On one or two occasions I may have crossed the line a lot, but not this time. Except for two or three guys, Saeed being one and I won't mention the others, I have no real problem getting into a personal war of words or argument with anyone on this forum, but I just don't enjoy it, and it's not a real good way to make friends and actually it defeats the point, and besides all that - I could be wrong and by pissing someone off, I may miss out on learning something.

Again, I'm just saying based on my limited experience, and observation, and taking proper note of the ballistic facts and laws of physics, I can not account for some folk's insistance that the 223 is adequate. I have to acknowledge that it works in some hands, sometimes, because guys like Ketchikan have pictures to prove it. So, the only thing I can figure is that it's like dealing with true believers. Talk, facts and logic pales when dealing with belief, which is absolutely the human factor, and that's the barrier that shuts down debate and creats the wall. No amount of statistics, or factual data can cross the wall.

I'm making a distinction here between belief and opinion. I described the effect of belief above, but within opinion I have always used that word in the context of there was still some room for objectivity and changing one's mind. Here we see little or no room for changing one's mind, so this goes beyond mere opinion.

KB

Fact is the pictures, no opinion in them. Fact is if you drill the shoulders with a good bullet critter dies.

I use lots of stuff to kill critters and when it comes to deer damn near anything will take them quickly.

Killing ain't rocket science but folks do love to make it tough.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

You are using words that I didn't use to intrepret my meaning - such as "bullshit", "vilifing", "childish name calling".

Once, on the last extended discussion of this subject, I wrote a couple of examples most stuck in my memory about deer lost with 223 or most notably with a 22 hornet. I tried to keep it short with just two examples. Of course it did no good, and those who chose to merely dismissed it with whatever rationilization of their choosing. I see no point in doing that again.

My point is that this phenomenon IMO can not be explained except to count in the factors of human subjectivity and filtering of facts. If you want to call that "bullshit", go ahead. It is what it is, and humans do strange things with facts.

As to making it personal - I try to choose my words carefully so as not to do that, but as with any pointed discussion, sometimes I push the line a bit. On one or two occasions I may have crossed the line a lot, but not this time. I have no real problem getting into a personal war of words or argument with anyone on this forum, but I just don't enjoy it, and it's not a real good way to make friends and actually it defeats the point, and besides all that - I could be wrong and by pissing someone off, I may miss out on learning something.

Again, I'm just saying based on my limited experience, and observation, and taking proper note of the ballistic facts and laws of physics, I can not account for some folk's insistance that the 223 is adequate. I have to acknowledge that it works in some hands, sometimes, because guys like Ketchikan have pictures to prove it. So, the only thing I can figure is that it's like dealing with true believers. Talk, facts and logic pales when dealing with belief, which is absolutely the human factor, and that's the barrier that shuts down debate and creats the wall. No amount of statistics, or factual data can cross the wall.

I'm making a distinction here between belief and opinion. I described the effect of belief above, but within opinion I have always used that word in the context of there was still some room for objectivity and changing one's mind. Here we see little or no room for changing one's mind, so this goes beyond mere opinion.

KB

Lots of words for "I'm talking out my ass"

Let's just say, for the sake of discussion, that I wanted to hunt deer and hogs with a 223. First, since I consider it very marginal, I would want to give it every chance of success. So, I look at Midway's web site for suitable bullets, and read the reviews. Then I decide to go with the heavy for caliber bullets. So, I see three possibles - Barnes TSX 70 gr, Speer 70 gr, and Scirocco 75 gr. There are lots of target and varmit bullets, but those are the only three I see for hunting big game - supposedly.

OK, now I set up a rifle around the bullets of choice. I'll need a fast twist, like 8" probably. No problem.

So, I spend the money to buy or build a suitable rifle, for these specialized bullets, among the hordes of other .223 bullets out there. Then I develop loads, and go hunting, and kill deer and hogs. No problem, mission accomplished.

Where's the problem?

There is not a problem for me because I just made a choice and spent my money making it happen. I know the limits of the rifle, and enjoy pushing its limits, and get satisfaction for the successes, and live with the failures.

The problem IMO comes with those who think they can take an out-of-the-box 223, and use just any bullet, at any range, and consistantly expect success.

I'm saying that anyone who chooses to use a 223 for purposes beyond it's design, should consider themselves as a hunter, and the rifle they use, as a specialist.

If I chose to make such a rifle, and use the bullets mentioned, I would intentionally be limiting myself in several ways. First, even the best of the bunch, the 75 gr Scirocco, barely crosses over the .200 sectional density threshold, and it's the only one that exceeds .400 in B.C. These are common and easy to achieve ballistic specs with practically any other bullets in common deer hunting calibers.

Even the lowly 7.62x39 pushes the 223 regarding those important specs for a bullet in predicting its performance. Barnes makes a 123 gr TSX for the 7.62x39, which at least makes a bigger hole, and probably it could be expected to not exit, thus expending all its energy in the deer, rather than as with the 223 70 gr or 75 gr, exiting and spending some of that marginal energy in the bushes.

For me the choices are clear. If I wanted to shoot deer with a 223, OK no problem. I just don't want to, mostly because I hate to see wounded deer, and I hate trackinng wounded deer, and especially wounded hogs. I would be nervous every time I pulled the trigger that a tracking job was about to happen, and eventually realize that I could have spent the same money, maybe less and got a real deer rifle.

KB

You must be a Democrat because you sure have the 'I know better so my job is to protect people from themselves' mentality honed.

One can't legislate stupid. Stupid will always find a way. Just as some folks might throw 40gr V-max's out of their off the shelf 223 they might just as easily zing 125gr varmint loads out of their 30/06 for busting deer.

This ain't about others, the question is if the 223 is up to the task, and it is.

McMillan

Ah, never mind.