quote:

I was very pleased with the bullet. Prototypes come in with a large meplat at 71.6%. I will drop that to 68% meplat. Also, edges were a little sharper than the test bullets Sam did too, so must knock a little of that edge off.

I would tell Dan to keep that meplat edge for bullets intended for Double Rifles and single shots. Just have him set up a second routine to round the edge a bit more like Sam’s prototypes.…I imagine it would come very close to 68% meplat then as well as smooth the feeding in bolt rifles.

quote:

Well again, my favorite load for this is 70/IMR 4198. In Sam's test bullet it gave me 2160 fps.

500 CEB Brass BBW #13 71.6% meplat 70/IMR 4198 average 5 2188 fps and 67727 PSI

Please with the velocity, but pressures a tad up. I have plenty of extra velocity I could bleed off if I wanted, but I decided to do something else instead!

Instead of dropping to 69/IMR 4198, I decided to drop some bands off this bullet! It has 8 driving bands as it is. I am dropping 4 of those out. Keeping the top wide band and a top narrow band, 2 in the middle, and the one wider band on the bottom. I made the new changes this afternoon and having 50 more prototypes run to see what happens.

The CEB Brass #13s look pretty good, but definitely not as clean looking as Sam’s prototypes…but nice none the less.

Eliminating 4 of the middle bands will reduce bullet within barrel friction so that should help lower the pressure levels while maintaining velocity. But I would have Dan cut the two wide bands to the same width as the narrow bands for the 50 prototypes. That’ll reduce the within barrel friction about as low as it’ll get with four bands…unless you have him split those 4 bands into half their width.

Yes yes I know…wide band…narrow band…I’m not harping…just offering my 2₵ to maximize the bullet’s performance…nothing more!

@michael458 + jim,

just an idea....may try to coat the bullets.I´m working with hBN-coating on the 9,5x70 (375-338Lapua) and it works REALY good specially with SOLIDS like BarnesX or 330grs.Lehigh 375-100.

Best
2RECON

Jim

On that top wide band, I like the looks of that loaded in the cartridge, that is all. Bottom band once beveled will be about the size of the smaller bands. I reckon I got to try it that way first. I think it will be enough to lower pressures, and keep the integrity of the bullet in tact, accuracy and such. Knocking a little more edge off the meplat, and bringing the meplat size down to 68-67% will do it I believe. The edge of the meplat is not raw sharp, it's been touched, but not so much as Sam's original #13.

2Recon

Yes, a coating would reduce pressures, no doubt. First I want to try the reduced number of bands, then I may give the coating a try too. Beyond myself, not everyone will want to coat the bullets, not even me, so if I can get there with the band configuration that will be the lazy way to play. HEH.

This week, probably tomorrow, I am going to go to work on the 500 MDM and the 458 Super Short. Both problem children with pressures and brass! Don't worry, I will sort them out!

HEH

Michael

Capo

Need a favor.

I have been shooting every day since Saturday, doing pressure traces with the 500 MDM and 458 Super Short. I am very pleased with the 500 MDM, and have established several powders, loads, bullets, all at low pressures less than 60000 PSI. RL 10X coming out on top of the stack, which is a little unexpected, although that is what Quickload says! Others looking good are IMR 4064, H-322 (even though I thought it was going to have to be dropped), RL 15-Large doses of it, AA 2520, Benchmark, and a couple more, giving more than enough velocity with 450 North Forks to 515 SSKs. All this done with RUM brass and ZERO issues. I will start testing that Quality 500 MDM brass just to see how it compares.

Now my real problem child is that little 458 Super Short. Once it gets over 60000 psi it starts to stick with Some Bullets! I was hoping to find a powder I had available that would do better than WW 296 or WW 297. So far, not really. I have worked with AA 1680, IMR 4227, 2400, even RL 7 and BlueDot! Nothing is getting me there better than WW 297/296. I have some Lil Gun, but it's not on my Quickload version, being that you are the "QuickLoad King" do you have anything on Lil Gun? I got it originally to test in the 50 Super Short, but never got around to it! While you are at it, take a look at more suitable powders to see if you come up with something I did not yet? If you don't mind of course! This little cartridge builds pressures very fast, even 1 gr of powder puts it over the edge, and from a much slower start. Say we are at 54000, just one more gr will put it way up sometimes! Problem Child that the 50 Super Short never was!

Thanks in Advance

Oh and just to note--2recon is going to get all the B&M series into the next version of Quickload for us--Problem is that I have to get samples of everything to him for him to do so, and I have been both lazy and have not had enough time yet--They are coming 2recon, soon as I can get to it. I may have to start working more hours than I already do?

M

Michael,

I'll be away from the house for about an hour but will run things up for you as soon as I get back and email you the results. In the meantime, any chance you could PM me with the fired case dimensions and the loaded case dimensions of the SS? Basically need to verify that the 458 B&M SS that I've put together in QD is correct; then I can transfer over to QL for the powder run...presuming using 450gr Barnes BND SLD as the 330gr BBS isn't in QL yet and I don't know its dimensions to gin one up.

Also, I wonder if a couple of the #13 series bullets were sent to 2recon if he could get the basic design for them included in both QD and QL for the next release. Would definately get us much closer between actuall chrono use and QL. Me I need it in QD so that I can size it up and down for the other B&M cartridges.

Jim

Michael,

I can fine tune things after I receive your email with actual 458 B&M SS cartridge specifications as well as the specs for the 330gr BBS. That said, I ran two scenarios for as a 243 WSSM derivative, using a 0.200” and a 0.250” neck length so hopefully that’ll put me into the correct ballpark.

If so…QL indicates that 50gr of Lil’Gun should put you in the 62.9K to 63.8K psi range and 2281fps to 2286fps with 16.25” barrel length. and that each grain of powder moves your psi by about 4.3K psi. Definitely appears this cartridge will require fine tuning in the half-grain rather than full grain range at each grain of powder seems to run 4.3K psi.

Let me know how close this is running to your actual pressure and velocity tests.

Jim

Sam and I just came off the range, 5:30 our time. We are zombies I must say. No way I can look at anything right now and make sense of anything at all. Will have to wait until tomorrow. Thanks however, I have everything you worked on today, just I have so much right now and little brain power left to use it.

M

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Jim

Sam and I just came off the range, 5:30 our time. We are zombies I must say. No way I can look at anything right now and make sense of anything at all. Will have to wait until tomorrow. Thanks however, I have everything you worked on today, just I have so much right now and little brain power left to use it.

M

10-4

Thanks Jim, as always I can count on you! Since the update I sent you on dimensions let me know what is looking good the next day or so when you get a chance.

Well, like every other day it seems, I got something going on. A couple of weeks ago, IBT sent some info on this stock that has "shock absorbers' in the end of it. At the time we were talking about recoil and wives. This stock looked good enough to peak my interest, so I ordered one of them. Sometimes I just never know what sort of thing might interest me these days, but if I could get my wife comfortable with a 9.3 B&M that would have put her in a another class of cartridges!

Got the stock in yesterday.

It appears to be very well made, the aluminum chassis is nicely finished, rubberized feel to the outside. A little long, little fat, but one of my 458 B&Ms dropped right in it. Could be a better barrel channel fit, but oh well......








So how did it work??? It's a strange thing, shoot, the shock absorber works, but seems like more muzzle rise, and then it's like it sorta sticks back there a bit before releasing? Maybe I need to poor some oil in it?? It moves a lot, 1.5 inches or so. It's strange, I suppose it reduces shoulder felt recoil, but it seems muzzle rise is more? I shot it about 6 times, and put the Ultimate stock back on it. I don't really have any conclusions yet. It's heavy at 3.5 lbs, even heavier than wood stocks from AI. Honestly, I don't care much for it. But is is nicely built.


Probably need to read the instructions too, I guess it came with some???

M

Just so happens that while Sam and I were digging around for some bullets for him to take to Africa the other day for his 50 B&M, my North Fork FPS delivery came! YIPPIE!!!!!!!!!! So I gave Sam a box of those to try in his 50 B&M. I think he is matching them up to take as backup for a fellow that is going with him on the trip.

So .500 is part of the North Fork Family now, in a big way.



Next from North Fork

.500 caliber 450 gr Soft Point

.474 caliber 425 gr Soft Point

.474 Caliber 425 Cup Point and FPS

.474 Caliber 350 Cup Point and FPS

.410 Caliber--I forgot? Soft Point of some sort? For 410 B&M

.474 Caliiber--I think a 350 Soft Point?

M

Read the instructions! Don't use a big hammer on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Read the instructions! Don't use a big hammer on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I used the small hammer, not the big one this time!

How about the 450 North Forks, how they shooting in your 50?

Suggestion on testing the "shock absorbing" stock.

Let the wife see the site video and read the instructions. Put a caliber on the stock that she's used to using. Let her do before-after comparisons.

I suspect that you are shock tolerant (please note I did not say that you are insensitive .



IBT

Michael,

The 450 NF's are shooting good in my 50 B&M. Should be just what I need for backup. The 350 non con shoots the same POI so those will work for boons.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by I Bin Therbefor:
Suggestion on testing the "shock absorbing" stock.

Let the wife see the site video and read the instructions. Put a caliber on the stock that she's used to using. Let her do before-after comparisons.

I suspect that you are shock tolerant (please note I did not say that you are insensitive .



IBT

IBT

Yes, what you say is correct, I am a poor judge to be honest. Someone else would be much better at this project than I. Not sure "shock Tolerant", I don't think anyone is, but I pay less attention to it because of the volume. I am no superman however, when I get to long range, 50 yds in my case, I have to work at it too! In fact I had been doing so much work at 25 for the last few months, I needed to do some 50 yd work for accuracy and load data, and I had to learn again myself.

M

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

The 450 NF's are shooting good in my 50 B&M. Should be just what I need for backup. The 350 non con shoots the same POI so those will work for boons.

Sam

Sam

I will get some more 350s on the way to you tomorrow. HOw about the Accurate Innovations stock, I can send it along too and try it on the gun?

I am starting work on some pressure data on the North Fork FPS tomorrow, since the 450 CPS was so pressure tolerant, I figure the FPS should be too. Going up to see how far we can go. Of course honestly one does not need more than 2200 and change that we are getting now with the FPS--CPS is different, but the FPS not a big deal. With the current meplat it's at 56 inches now. Little more velocity will get an inch or two more, but so what? But I have to know what it can do. Taking the 350 up too. Just to see.

If the 350 .500 does what the 330 416 does, then boons will explode on contact like prairie dogs! LOL.

M

Michael,

Thanks for sending the 350's don't need many. I don't need a stock but thanks for the offer. I have stocks running out my ears. I like those Winchester Ultimate stocks but they are mighty light weight. Thats the whole reason for having them isn't it?

Oh and I plan on shooting a deer this week with one of those 350's.


Sam

Sam

350s are out the door tomorrow!

What load you using?

M

Michael,I think it was 71 IMR4198. It might have been the RL-7 load. I forget!

Sam

With a 350? 71/IMR 4198 or RL 7? Very light load. Standard with the 350 is 75/IMR 4198 and all the RL 7 you can put in the case--LOL

Testing 77/IMR 4198 with the 350 tomorrow.

HEH HEH

M

You'll need a hammer to get 77 grains in the case. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the MDM?

I checked and I used RL-7 at 74 grains with the 350's.

HEH HEH

I used up to 78/RL 7 for 2471, no gain over 77 gr RL 7, lowest I have is 75/RL 7 for 2405 fps.

75/IMR 4198 for 2485 fps, safe, 50000 or so. I managed to load 77 yesterday to see what happens. Has to be over 2500 and change. Just mash it in there!

HEH

Michael

LOL! Ya, Michael, you crack me up. . . . .

'Just mash it in there'. . . . .

Must be an old technical reloading term. . . . I like it!

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
LOL! Ya, Michael, you crack me up. . . . .

'Just mash it in there'. . . . .

Must be an old technical reloading term. . . . I like it!

Big D

That is highly technical terms for very "Advanced Hand Loaders" only. Just anybody can't use terms such as;

"just mash it in there"

Gotta be advanced for that sort of talk!

M

Busy with PT's today again. 500 MDM, 50 B&M and 458 B&M Super Short. About to the end with them for now, very pleased with the 500 MDM and getting some new powders in line with it. 50 B&M just checking the North Fork pressures, looks good. 458 B&M Super Short, sensitive little bugger, but getting it under control, looks like LilGun might be a really good powder for it. Good velocities, but some high pressures, dropping a gr and will still maintain good velocity I think. WW 296 still right in line however. So things are moving along.

Sam, took the 350 Brass HP with 77/IMR 4198 (Mashed into the case) to 2525 fps today in the 50 B&M. No pressures 52000 PSI, but I would just stick with 75-76 grs and be done, less mashing. 450 North Fork FPS with 73/IMR 4198, to 2275 fps, no issues. Dead equal with the North Fork 450 CPS.

350 gr Brass HPs are on the way to you by the way.

Michael

Michael,

2525fps out of an 18 inch WOW!! I've got a lope along load which by your data is a little over 2300 fps. This will do fine for what I want them for. The 450 NF's with 71 grs of imr4198 are shooting well and both bullets same POI.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
Michael,

2525fps out of an 18 inch WOW!! I've got a lope along load which by your data is a little over 2300 fps. This will do fine for what I want them for. The 450 NF's with 71 grs of imr4198 are shooting well and both bullets same POI.

Sam

Sam

Yep, all true. If they are shooting good, what you have, then leave it at that. Both are more than enough to do the job!

M

Most know I have been busy several weeks doing pressure traces, and yes, it has been interfering with Terminals, I am only one person. And the pressure traces are behind and needed work, in particular the 500 MDM, 9.3 B&M, and the 458 B&M Super Short. Also, pressure work on the new CEB BBW #13s, which is one reason I am making a new post this evening! Also doing some new updated pressure traces on the 50 B&M with the North Forks, and the 500 MDM.

I may have already mentioned this, but in the 50 B&M I am able to take the new 450 North Fork CPS and FPS up to 2360 fps at 63298 PSI! Don't forget, this is a short 18 inch barrel, .500 caliber. Along with these, the new 500 gr CEB BBW #13 4 Bands to 2195 fps at 60646 PSI. Not bad for the little rifle!

Today in the 500 MDM I took the 500 gr CEB BBW #13 to 2506 fps for 56707 PSI. I don't know how much further you could go with that before getting to 65000? This is with 96/RL 10X. 94/H-322 wimped out and didn't do much more than 92 grs and only bought 20 fps at 54000 PSI?

In the 500 MDM I have only taken the 450 North Forks to 2550 fps with 95/RL 10X at 52148 PSI.

I can promise you don't need that sort of horsepower, but it is interesting. Recoil is not bad and is easy controlled. Also remember the 500 MDM sports a 21 inch tube, and weighs 8.5 lbs max. I could easy get by with 20 inches and never miss a thing.

New CEB BBW #13 Hollow Points are on the way in .500 caliber for testing, 500 of them, ought to be enough to test with I reckon! The 500 gr brass turned into 460 I think, the 425 copper into 400. Just about what I thought.

Michael

A new run of 500 gr CEB BBW #13s arrived today!






Again working with the pressure trace today, I had to see where I could take the 500 MDM with these and the North Fork 450 FPS and CPS.

I was amazed when I got the 500 gr CEB BBW#13s to 2617 fps at 62670 PSI. 2600 fps with a 500 gr solid is some horsepower!

I also had to update the photo and data on the 450 North Forks today! With 105/RL 10X in the 500 MDM I took the 450 CPS to 2748 fps at 59372 PSI. 2748 fps with a 450 gr Bullet!!!!!!







I think the 500 MDM is King of the Winchester M70s!

Michael

Took some photos today of 3 of the new Accurate Innovations stocks I picked up a couple of weeks ago. These are English and Turkish XX. My standard configuration, black tips, decelerator pad, shadow line cheek, and hand checkered. These are going on that run of 458 Lotts, so they are standard length stocks--All the B&M stocks are shortened to match up with the 18 inch barrels. The lotts will have 22 inch barrels and look like the one below.

















These stocks feel great too. AI had the B&M stocks near perfect, slimmer forends, still the M70 standard/long action stocks were not so narrow on the forend, bulky, well we got these slimmed up to match the B&M stocks and they feel fantastic!

Michael

quote:

These stocks feel great too. AI had the B&M stocks near perfect, slimmer forends, still the M70 standard/long action stocks were not so narrow on the forend, bulky, well we got these slimmed up to match the B&M stocks and they feel fantastic!

They look fantastic as well!

Yup. . . . . . . Fantastic!

Jim and Dennis

Thanks--Yep, look pretty good, these will make into fine working guns!

New CEB BBW #13s for the 458 B&M!

Michael,
You mentioned recently needing to check the non-cons in 416?
Put one of those long actions to work as a 416 Rem w/20 in barrel and short, slim fore-end AI in turkish and when you get through testing I could take it off your hands. Grins-all LOTTs seems wasteful.
Do pretty much agree with you about M 70 action. Teasing aside I am working on a trip to africa right now and need a 416. Are you recomending the 350 gr or 370 gr FNS NF ? And at what vel?
You were kind enough to pull some terminals on the 416 for me a while back but I am still unsure about 350 or 370 both bonded and solid.
At least 2 buff and a leopard will be on menu so want to get it right> Thanks in advance

SSR

Hi Cross

First, no thanks needed. There is nothing on the planet I love more than discussing and getting the right bullet/cartridge/rifle for a particular hunt or safari! And then, being right once you see it in the field! Extremely satisfying!

I am making the assumption that you hand load, or we would not be talking bullets for your hunt!

I am not trying to put the sales pitch on you, but you would be better off with a 20 inch 416 B&M than a 20 inch 416 Remington cartridge. If of course you are stuck on 416 caliber--which is a versatile caliber to be sure, even I can't deny that! I just happen to have two 416 B&Ms I need to move-neither have AI stocks--But I can arrange that too! HEH HEH. Will make you a dandy deal!

As for the 458 Lotts--I had several actions I could not use for the 500 MDM--so I figured I would make some really good M70 458 Lotts since there is for sure a lack of decent Win M70 big bores right now, none in 458 Lott.

OK I am going to bust right out here and take some punches I am sure. For almost everything I think 416 caliber is ok--but I don't think I like 416 caliber much for elephant. I have never used it on elephant, and yes I know it will kill elephants no doubt--I would just rather have larger diameter myself. Honestly, I think 416 should be minimum on buffalo too--Yes I know very well buffalo can be killed with much less, but I just prefer "more" as opposed to "adequate".

Winchester M70--or stay at home where it is safe! HEH!

Now, let's get to the nitty gritty! Yes, in 416 caliber I prefer 350-370 solids as opposed to 400s. I get no really decent test results with 400 gr bullets in any of my 416s, 416 B&M, 416 Remington, or 416 Rigby. My B&M and Remingtons are 1:14 twists--not sure what the Rigby is, Ruger #1? All do much better in terminals with 350-370 on the solids, much more stability during terminals. If I am using a 416 B&M in the field--it's 350-370 solids only.

Don't feel bad about being unsure! There was a time that I was too about many things. I am sure you know Sam just returned from Africa, and on his hunt he has a friend Doug. Doug is a 416 guy too--416 Remington. So Sam wanted Doug to use that brass 330 NonCon I had here from SSK/Lehigh. I had been working with it in 416 B&M and penetration and everything is there, Doug had lion on the menu, and buffalo. He was VERY UNSURE. I mean, 330 grs? But, penetration of the remaining solid is better or equal to any premium, even 400s. After some convincing from Sam, Doug agreed. Well Doug had to shoot the lion with a custom 375 of some sort he had promised to use. But he used his 416 Rem for a cow buffalo and bull buffalo, with the 330 Brass NonCon. As I understand the cow went down on the spot, the bull took about 3 steps and that was it. Neither was shot twice--Which if that had been me I would have been pouring the solids into them anyway, but that is me. So the 330 NonCon hit them hard, did exactly what it was supposed to do which is to inflict tremendous trauma to target. Doug is sold now, he says he is not going to the field again without NonCons--even wants them in lesser calibers! Sometimes it's just difficult for us to wrap our minds around some of this stuff, we have all been taught other things for as long as we have been shooting!

If I were choosing today a 416 anything and the right bullets for two buffalo and a leopard.

I have settled on two bullet companies for me--North Fork and CEB. That's it. Using the 370 North Forks Soft/Solid you can't go wrong. Soft up front for the buff followed by solids. Soft for the leopard of course. The North Fork Premium Soft is as good as it gets with that sort of bullet. Solid is of course good to go. CEB--the new 320-330 #13 Brass NonCon matched with the 350 #13 Solid. Once we get that HP correct, those 6 blades will be flying off in 6 directions away from center, slicing and dicing through vital organs, while the remaining solid continues to penetrate. Inflicting great trauma to target--I figure it has to be like a small explosion going on inside the body cavity. Of course, followed by the solids for buffalo. Lot's of trauma will be inflicted to the leopard no doubt--and of course that is exactly what you want with leopard--trauma transfer!

Now we won't have any issue getting the HP the right diameter, and I am just testing these right now before a production run. As you see, very thick blades. I will most likely have this HP enlarged some. Depends on at what depth the blades shear?




Michael

Jim stopped by the gun shop the other day and dropped off a couple of the bullets in .50 cal.
I put them up on display, and they get lot's of attention. Usually something along the lines of "Holy C&%!, who made those! Can't be cheap!

Michael:

Yes , I could be tempted by a 416 B&M. Have looked at your website before. I do indeed handload, the primary reason for the 416 REM is factory brass-the only non factory I have is a 223AI Grins. Was interested by the Taylor because of its fit in a pre 64 action so ultimate velocity isnt important to me. The B&M will more than meet my velocity concerns w/ a 350 @ 2400. I assume the 370 NFs could do @2300 in the 20 in barrel? I understand from AR and other sources including the Safari Co I am talking to that 150-200 yards is an uncommonly long shot even on most plains game in the area I am wanting to hunt. Thus a 416 will prob be my only rifle for this trip. Have located 2 rem mags one custom shop (New Haven) w/24 in tube-would cut down- and one custom w/20 in. The web site showed a B&M w/glass stock(?) at 6.5# I would hope that adding an AI stock would add some weight to that.Grins--the largest I shoot now is a 338 WIN MAG (pre
64 Alaskan) its a hell of a turtle gun-pops them waaay in the air with 200gr loads but think that 8-9 #s all up would suit me.

So-
416 NF at 2300-solid and bonded soft
m-70 action
onliest question is -B&M ,Taylor,or Rem mag

I think we are on the way to figuring this out.
What am I forgetting?

SSR

Cross

The 416 B&M can actually get to 2400 and stay under pressure with the 370 North Forks. Any of the 416s will do very well with plains game with 350s or so. My boys used a 416 B&M and a 350 Barnes X a tad over 2400 fps and it hammered kudu and oryx and things like that. With a new NonCon, it gets even better. Yes, you can add a nice AI stock and get that weight up a tad if you wanted. But believe me, you would be surprised at how little recoil there is.

If I recall correct, didn't I send my 18 inch 416 B&M to DWright, and he and Capoward did some shooting with it??? Jim? D? It's 6.5 lbs. Maybe they can chime in on that for you?

Cross, I think you are going to have a very difficult time getting to where you need to be in a 20 inch gun with the Taylor. I like the Taylor, had one for years, 22 inch barrel, and I struggled to get it where I wanted it. I think with 20 inches you will be pushing things. The Rem will get you there with case capacity and 20--the B&M will get you there with efficiency and 20. Really can't go wrong either way. Of course I choose the B&M--but I am prejudiced! But I have plenty of Remingtons too--3 maybe 4 M70s. One 22 inch gun. Really I have found the 416 B&M capable of anything the Remington can do, and much shorter, and lighter. I like the 18 inch version, but it does start to give up some to the 20 inches, unlike the bigger bores. 20 inches is about optimum for the B&M--22 gives no gain or advantage. It's far more important to choose a proper bullet for the job than a little bit of velocity. And the handling of the rifle is a big part of it too.

Almost there--M70 and North Forks!

I think you are well on the way to sorting it out. I don't think you are forgetting anything.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Jim stopped by the gun shop the other day and dropped off a couple of the bullets in .50 cal.
I put them up on display, and they get lot's of attention. Usually something along the lines of "Holy C&%!, who made those! Can't be cheap!

I need to get you some dummy rounds with some of the new bullets. Remind me, I will get that out to you!

New batch has not arrived yet, maybe tomorrow?

Michael