For those wanting to see video of the 12GA FH in
the Savage busting big pail of water, one of the
kids posted it on Youtube- Titled "Grampa's Cannon".
I just found out that it is on there.
This was the video that the still pictures posted
before, was takem from. They have the sound
muted so as not to hurt camera sound system. Ed

Lol...that was a good video Ed

Load of 12 triple ought buckshot in 8ga. They are
70gr each, total 840 gr, and over 2000 fps with
125 gr of 4759. Ed
Here is URL for the waterpail busting video above--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUNHszY4ACM

There are now two videos of 12GA FH on YouTube,
exploding big heavy walled pails of water.
The "Grampa's Cannon" one with a long view,
and "Grandpa's First Shot" a closeup video,
the first one, that shows how the top of heavy
shelf got bent. Later kids will do videos showing
muzzle blast and recoil.
Also the 3 ought buckshot from the 8ga load
above goes through 2" hardwood ok. I will test
8ga on waterpail also, to see what happens. Ed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk

Ed the magician...

now you see it now you dont.

That thing has a healthy sound too!!!

I've got extra 28ga alloy rifled barrel now.
So along with first one in Enfield I will be doing one
in Mossberg 695 bolt action. Will add a little weight
to the stock and one of kids will see how it does on
deer this fall.Ed

Oh here is URL of the Grandpa's First Shot Video--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c48zTpsgbuk

Here is pic of Mossberg 695 that will be the
second 28GA From Hell.You can see long
brass case in the port. Ed

And it will be capable of what kind of energy?

About 6800 ft lbs, which is neat in a turned
brass case with peak pressures of 30k.Ed

Are you doing a 20gauge version? I don't like my Benelli Nova 20ga, and I see that the Nova is suitable for 12ga from hell.

Tyler-I haven't done a 20ga but a few others
have, by getting guns with 3.5" chambers or having
chambers lengthened to 3.5".. AND getting 3.5"
brass cases from RMC as well as using slow
powder loads in 3.5" plastic. Same principle
works there as with our 12ga plastic with
the slower powder loads we worked up.
Somebody suggested this picture to show the
difference between shotgun powder, factory loads
and our loads in plastic and brass as it relates to
increased powder capacity. Factory 3rd case with
small amount of powder(more wads), 2nd case plastic with
larger amount(less wads), 1st, brass case all powder.
This allows us more volume of slower powder.
Also the Videos, 'Grandpa's Cannon', 'Grandpa's First
Shot', are heading up to 3000 views on Youtube.
Any of you who could pass info about the videos out
over the net, I'd appreciate it. Ed

Ed,
Thanks for the tip on the 1887 shotgun with rifled barrel.
I think the .666/12GFH would be fun to do on that action or any other action that could handle it.

Pressures allowable in the 1887:
I am looking through this thread, but if you get a chance to chip in before I find it ... thanks.

Any rimmed cartridge with brass made from 50BMG with added rim or standard 12-Guage brass is a great attractant.

Where do we find off-the-shelf 12GFH brass?
That would be the basic for forming .666/12GHF,
finished length of that cartridge being negotiable with Mad Mac.

THE 87 run 25-30,000 psi peak pressure,
using cases made from bmg brass.
Right now we are trying to get someone to
make cases by putting rims on bmg cases.
Rob was talking about it. I'm getting a few
turned 3.5 inch cases from RMC to to test
in 12ga, with shotgun primers, not bmg primers
so maybe they could be a source. I'm testing these
for loads that will fire off with shotgun primers
and 4227,4759. etc. Many guys don't want to rework
hammers or firing pins for the bmg primers. Ed

Ed, since RMC is custom making the brass, do you think it would benefit from a large rifle primer pocket instead of a 209? Couldn't hurt.

If they were only for me yes I'd get them made with
bmg pocket. But I'm getting them to test and develope
loads for many others who want shotgun primers, so
that shotgun hammers will fire them. And I think
from my formulas if RMC makes case heavy in the bottom
corner we can get 600gr to 2500 with 3.5" brass cases.
Then shotgun hammers will fire shotgun loads reliably,
using 4759 and 4227, with shot gun primers.Ed

Just wondering, what shotshell (209) primer do you use? I've been brushing up on my primer knowledge and have found that, until recently, the Federal 209 primer was the hottest, with Winchester next in line. Now, CCI has come out with the 209M, which is a "true Magnum" shotshell primer for todays slow burning steel powders. I got a few from a guy at the range to try in my 12GFH project when I was trying different rifle powders, in which 2 of the 3 didn't burn with Winchester 209's. After the switch, I got Hodgdon Retumbo (in small quantities) to fire, but never got velocity reading as my chrono was blown over by the wind and broke; perfect timing. I will tell you that the shell fell right out, and the recoil and report was low. I'm not sure if I really want to try working up a load with it, but it did shed some light on ignition. I still don't have any IMR 7383 to test, but am willing to guess that this new primer would only improve performance and ignition with any of the harder to burn powders, especially when you are loading 100+ grains. The great thing is that you can use plastic hulls and RMC brass without going to 50BMG primers and reworking your hammer. Hope it helps

I use CCI mag primers, seem to be the
best. And like you say you can use 3.5"
plastic and brass, but you could also fire
plastic in the long chamber(3.85") with cases
made from BMG brass.I do it all the time.
If we had a good supply of cases made from
BMG brass for a few thousand guys then it would
be worth the time to rework hammer springs,
or main springs, as cases would be around.
But with RMC cases that I am sure will get
24-2500 with 600 gr slugs,8000 ft lbs, get all
the guys attention in Savage with heavy barrel
added or the NEF Ultra. They will learn what
lead weight is for, or mercury reducers.Ed

Thanks Ed.

I've also got an update for those who are keeping their pressures in spec (SAAMI 3.5" 14,500). Using Greg Sappington's 1043 grain sledgehammer in the NEF with 3" plastic cases, Winchester or CCI primers and IMR 4227 powder. I'm up to 70 grains under one X12X gas seal from BPI, one 1/4" white felt wad and one 1/4" cork wad, roll-crimped just until the roller touches the slug. No pressure signs yet. I would give you velocity, but chrono (fixed now) wouldn't settle down. The only thing I can figure is that it was catching the wads. I got anywhere from 1600 or so to 327. Maybe it's still broken.

What works, my chrono is 40 ft away, that is
for cheap one like mine. Or good ones 3 ft
to get reading while wads are still tight
to the slug. I say good ones, as they that can
stand muzzle blast. As for your speed.
You should be able to go 10-15 gr more.
My figuring shows that you are
getting that slug about 12-1300.
I put my 12ga cases throught the Supersizer
so base is always .803" them from experience
when they go to .814" just ahead of rim
I'm about 15,000 psi peak pressure.Ed

These “cannons†have severe recoil. Can we fix that?

From time to time I’ve been trying to illustrate a “gyroscopic recoil reducer†in such a way that a “model-maker†(gifted machinist) could grasp its possible function and construction. If I can get it to the point where a machinist sees how to produce a prototype, maybe I can convince him to build one. No one, including myself, will believe it until they can actually test it.

The time-honored way to reduce recoil is by adding weight. But what if a gyroscope, spinning very fast, could actually appear to have MUCH more “massâ€, more inertia, than it actually has? This would be a “fictitious mass†which would not add to the weight of the rifle.

The gyro would be the rotor of a small DC motor spinning at maybe 120,000 rpm (2000 revolutions per second). This gyroscope would be enclosed in a housing which has external splines. Rigidly affixed to the rifle, located in a cavity back of the bolt and with the same axis as the axis of the barrel, would be a set of internal splines which can receive the external splines on the gyroscope housing. The cavity is maybe four inches long.

One more thing about these splines: they are not “straight†but instead make one “twist†in four inches like the rifling in a gun-barrel. And these spiraling splines are maybe four inches in overall length. So the gyroscope is free to move up and down this track of spiraling splines, and the motor/gyroscope is lightly held towards the aft end of the track by a very light spring, so it can easily slide forward along the track.

Now when the rifle is fired, the gun kicks back four inches. The gyroscope is forced to slide along the track because of its inertia, and rotates the motor housing by one revolution as it slides along the spiral splines. If it takes ½ second to fully recoil, and if the original direction of spin of the rotor was right, this two revolutions per second induced into the motor housing will ADD to the previous 2000 rps which the rotor was spinning.

It requires a LOT of energy to speed up a gyroscope by 2 rps if it was already spinning at 2000 rps. This increase in energy appears (I hope) as an apparent increase in the mass of the rotor.

I said I would not believe it until I see it… .

Hey Ed! We got nearly 40,000 views on this thread. Whats the Big Bore record?-Rob

Rob I don't know the record here.
But we have 65,000 on THR, and 50,000 on
Weaponsforums and about 600,000 on about
50 forums. Also, our guy with the jacketed
hollowpoint 12ga slugs just got all his dies
and has 1000 jackets coming to make 730 gr.
These are perfect for rifled barrels. Ed

Henry, could you make a drawing on paint of your device?

Just passed 40K views. 12Ga FH may have set a new record.WE should do a GunsandAmmo cover. -Rob

That could get lot's of views!

Tyler, I’ve started a sketch about four times, but keep getting hung up.

Mostly the problem is trying to draw the rotating splines. These are just like a short length of rifle barrel with one twist in four inches. But I find it almost impossible to draw.

Maybe I could draw it with straight splines, then ask the reader to imagine rotating splines.

Build one with a rotating field incorporatated
into the muzzlebrake or device on muzzle?? Is it possible?

Hey, will soon have pic of 23,000 ft lb gun.Ed

Ed, the bullet would have to pass through the center of the DC electric motor. This would severely complicate the motor, as the 120,000 rpm bearings normally occupy the motor axis.

On high speed turbochargers they float
shafts on oil. Something to check on.
A rotating field being slightly bigger
diameter might only need 80k rpm to
have enough gyro effect.

I read experiments using electro magnets to
speed up bullets in railguns. I wonder if
you could use bullet to make a magnetic field,
with windings around barrel, like reverse process.To generate powder for gyro.Ed

Ed, What you’re suggesting might well turn out to be a far superior implementation. But I always like to proceed in “baby stepsâ€. I can’t think of a simpler way to build the FIRST one, than what I’ve sketched so far.

After all, this whole thing might turn out to be a total BANANA, so the less time and effort spent in building the first one might well save embarrassment all around.

What I wanted to do is to prevent these shoulder-fired “cannons†from kicking back so far that they jam the scope into the shooter’s eye. But a penalty will be that the rifle tries to twist out of the shooter’s grip. Maybe shooting from a monopod, with the monopod stuck well into the dirt, would help. As would shooting prone with a bipod and feet spread way out.

With any luck, the first model built would “prove conceptâ€, and would allow us to determine whether it is something worthy of a second model. I would expect a second model to use heavier motors, for more effect, but who knows?

I really appreciate the obvious time you have spent grasping the concept. As I said, until someone actually BUILDS one, it will be just another joke. As you have seen, during recoil the motorized section (with external splines) attempts to remain stationary in space as the rifle recoils around it. The rifle carries with it the internally splined section. Except for the motor, it should be built of aluminum or other light materials, so as not to add too much weight to the rifle.

I really like your idea of building it into the silencer. A “doughnut†reciprocating shape would have much more angular momentum, because it would be much larger in diameter than the DC motor I am talking about. Of course, the doughnut would have to still be enclosed in an externally-splined housing.

AH, my feeble mind understands now! But the rifle jerking from your hands might end up in a dropped gun. Not good. I would love to see the device in action!

Yeah Tyler, don’t want to drop your rifle! I think if you fired it prone, using a bipod, and with the bipod legs stuck pretty deeply into the ground, you might never feel the rifle trying to wrench free of your grip.

Actually, all this started in a long-ago conversation with my father-in-law, now long since deceased. He was a “Scofield Barracks Survivorâ€, who withstood the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.

During his long tenure as an enlisted man, and early in the war, he once volunteered to test a new rifle. It was shoulder-fired, and was intended as an anti-tank rifle. VERY large caliber, and armor-piercing heavy bullets.

He never got to fire one. Before his number came up the Army had determined that too many test subject’s had broken their collar bones while firing the monster. They gave up on the rifle, in favor of the new Bazooka.

Rob do you have a pic of the Borchardt hosted
somewhere? The links don't seem to work.
If needed you can send to me to host on my site.
JR mentioned on THR that he wanted to see them,
but they don't come up......... He is in process
joining us here...Ed

Ed- Sure do. Lets see if this works. BTW the 12GaFH shell has a 2000gr Borerider in it!-Rob

A great closeup of the action Rob.
The bigbore nuts will like it. Ed

Ed- I dont know if these are even being manufactured anymore. Mine may be the last. I also have more pics if you need them.
BTW whats the latest on the Montana PH actions?-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Ed- I dont know if these are even being manufactured anymore. Mine may be the last. I also have more pics if you need them.
BTW whats the latest on the Montana PH actions?-Rob

Rob,
Could one of those Jumbo-Borchardt actions be made to work with the rimless brass of standard 50BMG?

It would be a nifty alternative to necking down 12GFH to .510 caliber.

One loon at least has used an oversized Sharps 1874 with the 50BMG loaded with blackpowder.

Could the Jumbo-Borchardt handle standard 50BMG loads?

Any other pictures of the Borchardt (especially extractor/ejector, 12GFH in loading port, etc.) would be great eye candy. If Ed is too proud to beg, please allow me.