Karl,

we did something about it after bitching a couple years...

RubLine, and the rest of you

I made a little money in the stock market in both 2008 and 2009. How'd your investments do? Have you "Mother F-ked" your broker in public yet? Call him Monday morning and have him liquidate your portfolio. That would teach him to mess with you!! Same for the rest of you who want to bail.
You will do better than the $$$ you put into the market the past few years...

Here's The Deal: Jeff it trying to keep the company from tanking like so many of his suppliers have in the last eighteen months. Pay some outfit (up front) to make your firing pins. They take your money, get the tooling, decide to stick you a little more since they got you over the barrel. By time you get to court to enforce the written contract you have with them, they decide to just file bankruptcy, not notify you because technically they can show they don't owe you in court (since they have not defaulted on you specifically), and sell the tooling you paid for to somebody else who will offer to build you firing pins for about five times the original quote, before you can attend the bankruptcy sale and buy the tooling back.

That is just one of the three big problems Jeff faced.

The other two: One is the general collapse of the economy. The other is his choice of people to be in business with, and that is for you to call him and ask...

THE BOTTOM LINE HERE: he can't shit them, he has to get a dependable machine shop to make them at a price he can afford to pay for them. They ain't doing much "good faith and a handshake" these days in the machine shop industry.

I'm frustrated myself. I paid up front for my pair like the rest of you. But, there is nothing to be gained by bitching, except calluses on your finger tips pounding the keyboard. This is like arguing with your wife...

Rich

" This is like arguing with your wife..."

Thats funny!
Rodney.

ISS- the difference is your wife kisses you while your getting screwed!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Karl,

we did something about it after bitching a couple years...

RubLine, and the rest of you

I made a little money in the stock market in both 2008 and 2009. How'd your investments do? Have you "Mother F-ked" your broker in public yet? Call him Monday morning and have him liquidate your portfolio. That would teach him to mess with you!! Same for the rest of you who want to bail.
You will do better than the $$$ you put into the market the past few years...

Here's The Deal: Jeff it trying to keep the company from tanking like so many of his suppliers have in the last eighteen months. Pay some outfit (up front) to make your firing pins. They take your money, get the tooling, decide to stick you a little more since they got you over the barrel. By time you get to court to enforce the written contract you have with them, they decide to just file bankruptcy, not notify you because technically they can show they don't owe you in court (since they have not defaulted on you specifically), and sell the tooling you paid for to somebody else who will offer to build you firing pins for about five times the original quote, before you can attend the bankruptcy sale and buy the tooling back.

That is just one of the three big problems Jeff faced.

The other two: One is the general collapse of the economy. The other is his choice of people to be in business with, and that is for you to call him and ask...

THE BOTTOM LINE HERE: he can't shit them, he has to get a dependable machine shop to make them at a price he can afford to pay for them.

Rich

Such a class act all the way around!

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Karl,

we did something about it after bitching a couple years...

RubLine, and the rest of you

I made a little money in the stock market in both 2008 and 2009. How'd your investments do? Have you "Mother F-ked" your broker in public yet? Call him Monday morning and have him liquidate your portfolio. That would teach him to mess with you!! Same for the rest of you who want to bail.
You will do better than the $$$ you put into the market the past few years...

Here's The Deal: Jeff it trying to keep the company from tanking like so many of his suppliers have in the last eighteen months. Pay some outfit (up front) to make your firing pins. They take your money, get the tooling, decide to stick you a little more since they got you over the barrel. By time you get to court to enforce the written contract you have with them, they decide to just file bankruptcy, not notify you because technically they can show they don't owe you in court (since they have not defaulted on you specifically), and sell the tooling you paid for to somebody else who will offer to build you firing pins for about five times the original quote, before you can attend the bankruptcy sale and buy the tooling back.

That is just one of the three big problems Jeff faced.

The other two: One is the general collapse of the economy. The other is his choice of people to be in business with, and that is for you to call him and ask...

THE BOTTOM LINE HERE: he can't shit them, he has to get a dependable machine shop to make them at a price he can afford to pay for them. They ain't doing much "good faith and a handshake" these days in the machine shop industry.

I'm frustrated myself. I paid up front for my pair like the rest of you. But, there is nothing to be gained by bitching, except calluses on your finger tips pounding the keyboard. This is like arguing with your wife...

Rich

You just don't get it. The market is a gamble, we know that going in. We had no idea that MRC was a gamble, we thought that we were acutally purchasing something tangable. We didn't know that we were putting our money on a craps table, for jeff to hopefully make things right with us someday.

And by the way, there is something to be gained by bitching, afterall jeff has promised to give me a refund (again).

I would like too see Montana get the benefit of the doubt here. Easy to say, since I have no money tied up and I would benefit from their continued success. We all benefit from more competition and more product choices.

At this time, I would not buy out an order. The fact that MRC will support this transfer is good. Problems are: no overall schedule, no approximate first ship date, no individual position in line. Robs No2&3 order or Daves unknown number all look the same to me.

Keep in mind, CZ550 actions are available from Brownell right now. Those handle up to the 505 Gibbs or 585HE.

I would think if all the known issues are resolved and work is all planed out - there should be a schedule. A best/worse case when PH actions begin too ship and best/worst for how many PH per month. MRC must have a schedule for its own business planning?

The woman is who answers the phone at MRC, could compile a list of all buyers. Order the names based on whatever date is in the records, assign a serial number (or some number) and mail out a paper notice to each buyer.

With a schedule and a place in line each PH buyer has something to sell, if he still wants too.

That all backed up by Jeffs weekly "PH only update". First a Schedule update. Second: what was done on how many pieces. Third: how many shipped.

Fourbore, brought up very good ideas. Some kind of a purchase order or a serial number assignment to each paid customer who then could reference blocks of numbers that would ship during a timeframe. Something in the general idea of a chart or simply blocks of numbers to be shipped during a timeframe. I'm still in this and with alot of thought believe the "PH" action will deliver. Would be nice to know the time frame for delivery for the preparation of ordering barrel and other limited and hard to find components. Mine will be a beast. When it comes. One day. Soon I hope.
Rodney.

Dam I ask for a update, go away for a week and come back to a shit storm. As I recall MRC started this project at the request of the membership here. We all wanted a cheaper choice than the high end actions. It took several years for us to come up with the # of orders need to get things going. Jeff seems to be acting in good faith and trying to deliver a good product. He has had a problem or two come up that was out of his control., if he is indeed acting in good faith then giving him a bunch of BS is not going to speed things up. I am not happy about the wait but it is what it is and all the bitching is not going to change it.

Jeff you should have been giving us more frequent updates..I know you have a lot of irons in the fire it but it doest take that long. Don't let all this BS stop you from enjoying and getting this project finished

JD

IMHO, the major factor in this whole debacle is poor comunications. (Like most gunsmithing/manufacturer problems)

If people were getting regular updates there would be a lot less issue with this.

Amen- justba little common sense communication effort would have made an enourmous difference. That and some honest shipping dates-Rob

Just off the phone with Rub Lines gunsmith.
I'm now getting 3 more PHs to help
out him and his smith, and to help out
Jeff and Co. That is 4 extras now
for the cause, which is for me getting
my 585 and 700 in use.ED

MTJ- got your PM and responded.let me know what you think
if my suggestion.-Rob

About the extra 3 actions I just took over,
In this morning phone call,I told them
to move them to the bottom of the list for
delivery. Give others a leg up.Ed

Ed, you are a gentleman and a gunsmith!

How about a Left Handed PH? Is that in the future?

RGB,

some of the time...

Rich

I'm hanging tough; maybe I just don't know any better; but I trust Jeff.

Saw this on another site. It is on the U.K NRA website Prohibition Notice
Montana 1999 Rifles in Stainless Steel

In October 2009 there was an incident at Bisley when a Montana 1999 action made in stainless steel suffered a breech explosion and catastrophic failure of the front receiver ring. Fortunately, nobody was seriously hurt. The NRA has carried out a technical investigation on the rifle, including obtaining a metallurgical analysis.

As a consequence of this incident and pending full consideration of the information generated by the NRA's investigation, the use of stainless steel Montana 1999 actions on Bisley ranges is prohibited until further notice.

The NRA will pass its concerns to the manufacturer and is in communication with the Birmingham Proof House. The prohibition will be reconsidered in the light of any advice received from these two sources. Owners of Montana firearms with such actions are invited to supply contact details to the Secretary General so that the NRA can pass on any advice with minimum delay.

It is emphasised that this prohibition applies only to stainless steel Montana 1999 actions. Montana actions made in 4140 CrMo steel are not included in this prohibition.

Glynn Alger
Secretary General

That's a way to slow down a thread.
If I was a mfgr, I wouldn't make
stainless.......Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
That's a way to slow down a thread.
If I was a mfgr, I wouldn't make
stainless.......Ed

I don't get it - actually I don't understand either statement, Ed.
Paul

That info out of the blue sure wasn't expected.
A lot of companies making stainless barrels say
no to use in real low temperatures,
Stainless actions are harder to heat
treat properly. Why do them just because it
it is fad, when there are huge variety of
finishes for Cromolly actions and barrels.
I know I'm an old fogey, the stuff kinda
scares me. Ed

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
That info out of the blue sure wasn't expected.
A lot of companies making stainless barrels say
no to use in real low temperatures,
Stainless actions are harder to heat
treat properly. Why do them just because it
it is fad, when there are huge variety of
finishes for Cromolly actions and barrels.
I know I'm an old fogey, the stuff kinda
scares me. Ed

As a general question, not an indictment of a specific company or person:

Would you trust a company that didnt properly heat treat a stainless action to do it correctly on any other? Particularly when a life or lives might be put in jeopardy by its failure?

I'd have to say yes if only because of the Tikka stainless barrel debacle. Hell, I'd even buy a Toyota if they made one I liked.....

It might be worth reading that report before we jump to too many conclusions. NRA really isnt a scientific organization with the means to make such a conclusion. I'd love to read the report first before I would concede it was the heat treating. I can think of at least one other cause for a gun going Kaboom in competition. It happened a few times in FCSA 1000yrd and was usually owner induced. -Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
I can think of at least one other cause for a gun going Kaboom in competition. It happened a few times in FCSA 1000yrd and was usually owner induced. -Rob

Rob - please tell us more..

I would agree that the NRA is not a scientific body to do technical testing of the firearm in question, but no doubt that they have sources to conduct whatever level of technical testing needs to be done, scientifically. In short, they well know who to call and contact to determine answers to questions. It's my understanding that firearms used in Bisley are scrutinized as to chamber specs prior to being permitted on the line and are tagged as being inspected and passed. If your chamber does not meet standards, actually oversized compared to some 308 chambers we normally see, you either have it corrected or don't shoot. May well have changed since '03, but the rounds/ammo used is mfg. by German firm and all the same for each competitor. As these types of failures occur, it seldom produces the results of the testing that all can see or read about. In any case, not a good occurence for anyone.

And y'all are waiting for these why?

A cheap knock off of a Dakota?

You get what you pay for.

Good luck with that

I agree it could be operator induced,
It could be the ammo, obstruction,etc, and if
any of those faults, they should found
out in 5- 6 months.
I tested the PH, huge load, in the
biggest and harriest case we could get
into it. Works great.
Mrc does use a good professional
heat treating company, but if a case fails
and fills the action inside the reciever
ring with gases and high pressure, even the
mauser the standard for bolt guns might
rupture.Any mention anywhere if barrel
split or case ruptured.Ed

First of all folks, let's not jump to any conclusions, This is the FIRST time I have heard about this and there will need to be an investigation into how it happened. For this organization to make accusations against MRC without conducting and investigation is pretty reckless in my opinion and we will find out how it happened. All of our actions SS and CM are proof tested before they leave our facility so I know for a fact they are strong. The NRA-UK has NEVER contacted us in regards to this incident so we don't even know if it is true or not? I have also contacted the US- NRA to find out if they know anything. will keep people posted.
Jeff

Just spoke to the US NRA and what I was told is that they have NO affiliation with the NRA-UK and that they are more like a Gun club in the UK. So as to their investigation I have no idea as to the extent of it or to their expertise. Again, I have NEVER been contacted by them and the info I have screams of operator error. My Attorney will also be in contact with the UK Governement on this.

I don't think this thread's purpose was to discuss the reliability or the safety of Montana actions. The purpose was to discuss availabilty issues related to MRC.

It is my humble opinion that if the heat treat, functionality, reliabilty, and safety issues need to be addressed, then a new thread should be started. I have no experience with Montana actions, therefore I can't comment on what may have happened at bisley. Any comment that I would make would be pure speculation, given the limeted facts presented. No need to pile on or get off topic because if these actions were garbage, we would be seeing reports of this sort of stuff right away, given how fast bad news travels on the internet. I have no reason to belive that MRC actions are nothing less than premium quality.

My only beef with MRC is the fact that they give out totally unrealistic timelines and seem to have communication issues. Furtheremore, the availability timeframes that are posted on the MRC website are totally incorrect. If I could give one piece of advice it would be to put out realistic timeframe and availibiltiy on the MRC website so customers can make more educated decisions. For example, if parts are unavailable to complete actions that are ordered today, the website should say something like; RHCM actions are unavailable until 3rd party issues are resolved. It should NOT say; 90 days from time of order. In this day and age, a corporate website should be updated(often) and accurate. I often wondered where MRC customers, that don't hang out on Accurate Reloading, get their information.

I order a lot of materials and usually when a timeline is given for a part, I can expect to get it well ahead of the given timeframe. People usually don't complain about getting stuff early. If stuff doesn't show up on time, I usually assume that an order was screwed up somewhow, or I'm not getting the materials at all. It really becomes a trust issue.

Rub Line, I agree with you about the web needing to be updated, I will get that changed today. And to be honest our time frames have been ...well...you said it, unrealistic. I am working on that as well.
Jeff

First, the NRA-UK has not made a pronouncement about the cause of the failure and most assuredly not said that the part was defective. They did respond to the incident by prohibiting the use of that brand until the cause could be determined.

The probable reason for this is that they have little or no prior exerience with the brand, are unfamiliar with the source of it's production (Ruger's Pine Tree Casting) and are taking a cautious liability position in the absence of sufficient information to do otherwise. They even ask the membership for contact information for MRC, for that matter.

My gut feeling is they feel no obligation to accomodate a little-known Yank manufacturer that they may never see on the line again just out of scarcity in the UK. Unless their membership advocates for MCR to be given a fair analysis, it will probably die with that announcement.

Which isn't fair to MRC in my opinion, but it is what it is. No one should assume it was the heat treating until a qualified source can prove it. If they can, get ready to ditch all your Ruger stainless rifles, too.

Some of this has political bent.
Ie, MRC not a EU company so don't do followup.
In a 308 cartridge on a firing line like this
where guns are inspected, no one would fire a
squib load, leaving a bullet for obstruction,
without someone overseeing to make
sure barrel clear.So what happened. I think it may be
ammo failure. a case rupturing in the corner can put
enough gases and pressure inside action to bulge it,
or blow the top off. They said top blown off, but didn't
seem to mention whether barrel was split. If barrel
isn't split then it leads toward a bad cartridge
case splitting letting gases into action.

I related before where one of the huge double bolt
700 guns was blown up due to case blowing
out through the corner.
I wish they have put out all the info, a photo,
complete info. It looks as if they just let MRC
take all blame by default, by their incomplete info and
followup. Ed

There are more engineering trade offs than I was aware. I was totally surprised to hear that blue steel is tougher than stainless. I would have guessed the opposite. This is good to know. In this case classic = stronger, a win-win proposition. (assuming Ed's knows)

I also assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that modern actions were x-ray or ultra sounded for internal flaws within the metal. I wonder about that now.

I remember seeing vent holes in some bolt actions. Is that common practice today? I would have to go look in my safe. Do these vents work, to prevent exploded actions when a case fails? Does MRC use vent holes?

Ed's scenario, does seem to indicate one real advantage to push feed actions that fully surround/enclose the case when fired. I assumed this was mostly marketing BS. Perhaps there is no one right or wrong - but; advantages and disadvantages in push feed vs. control feed? Again, in my ignorance, I assume the open design provided a relief and seen photos of splinter stocks, where the action held.

Most All bolt actions gave vent holes. The PH does.

Surrounding the case head area with a bolt head recess
like some push feeds have, won't help with a case
blowing out the corner, in fact may turn the gases
into an explosive speed demon that can cut action,
by squirting though the close spaces between bolt
and barrel. And in essense a Mauser wall system will
act the same as the bolt head enclosed over the case
head systems. Why, because the bolt nose fits in the
wall fairly tight, extractor just fits in cutout,
the wall is tight to barrel, just like the bolt
front on the casehead surrounding designs.If a case
ruptures in that tight space. the gases may escape
though narrow tolerances, turning into explosive
speed, able to do great damage.Explosive speeds
are about 5 times regular propellent speeds.
Powder in rifle cases is supposed to work at
propellent speeds, 5-6000 fps, not high explosives speeds
of 18- 35,000 fps like bombs and IEDs work.Ed

Ed is correct, CM steel is generally stronger than stainless. Stainless is a little easier to get smooth hence its use in many match barrels. I am not saying stainless isn't 100% fine to use for any firearm application or that CM steel doesn't produce match barrels second to none. These are just general rules from a metallurgical standpoint.

Weekly update. Good news is I found a guy that can do the firing pins. Bad news is that is is going to cost me more than I wanted to pay. But at this point beggars can't be chooser's right.....didn't think anyone would jump on and say "No hold out for a cheaper supplier"! Doesn't raise your price...just mine. I have been waiting for first article from another supplier but so far I think he's vanshied too.....? Oh well, this new guy has a good reputation and has built firing pins before so he has experience doing it. Still nothing decided on the standard magnums (375 H&H, 416 Rem and 458 Lott), although we designed a different follower and are going to try it out. That may be a month or so out though as I dont' have any free machines to do it with right now. Will post again next week.
Jeff

Good to hear.
What is the unit cost increase?

Jeff- thank you for the update Its very much appreciated.-rob

This is good news and I will start working on "plan A" for the "PH" action.
Rodney.


.505" Gibbs'er
.500 AccRel
Something Ridiculous!