I have been watching the PH action project for years and havn't purchased one yet out of suspicion of what is happening right now. Big / Mega bore builders make .585 Nyatis & .577 Tryannosaurs out of Enfields, resurrect old cartridges almost lost to time (including making brass), and tinker on a grand semi-professional scale. If the Montana Rifle Company will give buyers the option of receiving their actions w/o firing pins and start shipping them I will buy one at the asking price. I am fully confident I can find someone willing to make and fit a firing pin to my action. I don't doubt the protypes exist but right now I am loosing faith. I hope they come through, the next similiar acitons are $3000+. I also would hate to see another American firearms manufacturer go defunct. It would hurt us all!

The issue with making long thin firing pins ua you need to have a travelling rest in the lathe to assure the dimensions of the pin don't change when turning ling thin pieces. I have that gear in my Haaas lathe and have dine similar jobs before. As for heat treating I know where to send it out too.I'm
calling Jeff Monday and sorting this thing out to my satisfaction .-Rob

I decided to edit my prior comments out. After a careful reread, I decided this is too complicated a story and best for me too be grateful I am not involved.

wouldn't be the first time we bought actions without firing pins

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Rusty- I'm sorry but that firing pin design could be made in any competent CNC shop like mine and you dont need a Swiss lathe to do it either.

Rob, I hope you can help them out.

Does anyone actually think there is a firing pin issue? I ordered a 1999 long action back in early July, cancelled it in October when Lindsay said it would be at least ten more weeks! No refund, no action and it's now Feb.

There is no firing pin issue. It a money issue, and a truth issue (or a lack thereof).

Rub line.I'm think the firing
pin isue affected other models
also, as he said last summer the bankruptcy
folks couldn't find the 600 plus pins he had
coming.That he had money out on.
That is over two times as many as the PH
actions ready and planned on being ready.
That asshole company and asshole bankruptcy people
really put him in a bind.Ed

I'm going to take a few mimutes off from yanking Idaho's chain and ask two questions. One serious, the other maybe not so much:
1. Presuming the Montana PH actions wre both available and as orignally represented, why and in what ways would they be superior to a Don Allen-era Dakota 76 action (which I revere highly)?
2. Where is Mr.Satterlee when we really need him?

What could 600 firing pins possibly be worth? I doubt we are talking $10K total. If they were serious get on the web contact the folks who BOUGHT actions tell the truth and ask for another $250 ea. They would have the money in a week!
No one wants them to go out of buisness and we ARE willing to Help out.
However, my BS meter is on TILT!
Why cant they send us the parts to our actions sans the FP out of GOODWILL? I'd call that a win! I'd be happy to take care of any AR members who needed a FP. It might cost a wopping $25-30.-Rob

Rob-During all this trouble they have
raised prices on new orders. 10 grand is about
right for 600 pins, with treating and all
but Jeff had also put out a time before
about twice that much to get the guys
machines and tooling as he made pins
for awhile for him. Jeff never got that
back either.Or years of deliveries to
spread the cost out.ED

Ed:

Everything you say may indeed be correct. However, Rob is also correct that the guys that paid in advance for their actions have been more than patient and have a right to insist that they get an action or a refund NOW! We bought a product, not stock in Montana Rifle Company. For the past two years Jeff has continually promised the project would be a couple of more months. Time's up.

One other thing... No disrespect intended but I am getting a little sore about the lecture on patience for from the only guy who has gotten his action!

Two have got them, and I still got one
and plus 1 more soon, to wait on
and maybe 3 and 4 to wait on.

They probably didn't do me or themselves any good
as hard feelings occur. But that is my fault.Ed

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:


I am in love.

Too bad she's only 14.

Ed- $10000 is buying them a awful lot of real BAD publicity and a loss of reputation. Why not at least offer to send out INCOMPLETE actions or refunds at this time if clients demand them? Why would a reputable company not offer to do this? SEE MY POINT! I'm with Dave its time to Pony- up! Dont see Jeff responding on this site either!-Rob

I would gladly accept mine without the firing pin, it can ship later or just have one made here. Maybe Ed could remove his, reverse engineer it and post the measurements here. No big deal. Funny thing is that if they were shipped out as is with company follow-up on the pins, they would probably sell more of them. Who knows. Also I would have been willing to go a little more on this with them, but a firing pin don't cost no $250.- I would be willing to pay actual additional cost for the pin. Just a few venting thoughts.
Rodney.

Well, Jeff has everyones phone # and address so I think it only fitting he respond directly to each person waiting on him. I do know one thing, this will be the very last dealings I will ever have with his company, regardless of whether or not I ever get the action I paid for....in advance yet. I am 99% sure MOST of us have lost our investment altogether and will have a zero chance of recovering any amount. Just another of lifes lessons.........loan only the money you can afford to lose. Like it or not folks....we loaned that money to Jeff expecting a PH action in return. WE are all FOOLS.

I think JEFF owes us a response HERE! No individual deal cutting. -Rob

Along with the no individual deals it would be nice if they could send us an order or serial number to our actions and then post these on their web-site showing the shipping sequence. Who is to say who's will ship out and in what order. When I got into this, the MRC web-site had a counter demonstrating the number of orders. Be cool if they could post something showing customer shipping sequence. Believe I was about 44 on that counter and that was several years ago.
Rodney.

So who is Jeff talking to? Sure as hell isn't me. I have paid for two PH actions almost two years ago and can't get anyone to talk to me at MRC let alone give me an idea of when (or if) I'll get the actions I paid for... Anyone else thinking class-action? Should have enough lawyers represented on the board to do this one cheap! May not get the actions but at least a little satisfaction.

The Site is back up-
http://www.montanarifleco.com/

Waiting on Jeff to respond. Ed- you seem to have some pull with him. Tell him he had better respond soon. -Rob

Kevin,

You are a lawyer and claim to do charitable work all of the time. Why don't you do something productive for a change, stop being the apologist for these BS artists (Greg Hein, MRC, etc.), and instead stand on the side of truth for a change. Take on this case and demand performance or refunds. It is simple.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Waiting on Jeff to respond. Ed- you seem to have some pull with him. Tell him he had better respond soon. -Rob

I probably agree with your and most of the posts regarding this matter, but take it easy on Ed.

Lets not tar everyone still positive on the idea.

Karl.

Still no word to anyone from Jeff yet?

Just checked with a friend of mine in Rapid City, He is having similar problems; I wish all of you good fortune in getting products. Despite the reasons for the poor performance, it is sad to see what was once a promising endeavor reduced to this level of customer service and reputation.

Karl- look both ED and I had lots of input into this action design. I have no issues with ED and never had any. This us between Mintana Jeff and US. I just asked that if ED has any pull with them that he urge JEFF to man up and tell us how he's gonna fix this or tell us we are screwed! I'd like to see a little honesty that's all. Frankly, I've written off my $900. But I am gonna have some words with this company over it.-Rob

Ok fair call. Hope it works out for you guys.

Karl.

If they start shipping semi-complete actions my offer still stands to purchase one at the list price. I bet I am not alone either. The PH action is a great idea and if Montana goes belly up everyone suffers. If money is the issue I have $1100 for Jeff provided the actions are what he has said they are at this point.

Offering to ship semi complete actions would be the least they could do. Bet that they have lots if excuses why they can't or won't do that. I for one really want to hear what Jeff has to offer us. One answer that isn't acceptable is please wait a bit longer though! You know Jeff is reading this thread. Why isn't he responding I wonder? No we are not going to sue him, but I'll bet no one ever sends them money for anything ever again unless they are brain dead.-Rob

Guys, I have said this before, I want to get on here to give you updates but I can't get on here every day, hell I'm lucky if I can get to this once a month. I know you deserve to get updates but I am putting in every second I have to finish this project up.

We do have two companies that are producing the pins now. Rob, I am sure I have a message from you somewhere on my desk but I have about 200 of them here. I am trying to go through them as fast as I can, If you think I am ignoring you I am not, just been trying to get caught up.

wow, uhh...thanks for the vote of confidence from the peanut gallery...? No we are not Bankrupt, nor are we going to. Is there financial crunches...uhh yeah..I have already said we PAID for tooling and parts from several different vendors that they went out of business...how do you re-coup that? Yes, Lawyers which takes up more money and time...it doesn't happen over night. And in the meantime I still need to get another company tooled up making parts right? That takes more money and more time. Then I got guys canceling orders, I already said I would refund the money, although the deal was that the money was going towards the project with no refunds. I agreed to give refunds because of the extremely long wait. But, please understand, if I am putting ALL excess cash into new tooling and new parts, there is not a lot of excess cash flow to go towards refunds, let alone run the company. I'll get them out as I have the excess cash that won't hurt the company. I am not a rich man, my company is not a 100 Million dollar company. I am doing the best I can to get the actions out the door and get the refunds to the customers who want them. If that is not good enough for some of you, well...what do you want me to do?
I am not going to send out semi finished products. My Liability Insurance Company would cancel my policy, think I'm kidding...check it out. Oh and you think that's cheap..HA! That's another $30k hit every year.

I will get the PH's done and out to the customers who are waiting. You want a deal of some sort, fine here's the deal I will give you who wait.

ALL customers who are waiting for their PH, who do not Cancel will be given the opportunity to purchase the same amount of PH actions in the future at the same initial price of $625. I will keep records in each one of your accounts to this effect. So if you have 3 on order you can order 3 more at a later date for the same amount instead of the regular price. However, if you cancel, you cancel the deal and if you want to purchase on after the backorders are out, you'll pay full regular price.

Now, if I don't get back on here for a while, sorry, I am working.
Jeff

I am sticking with the man, and with the plan. I believe Jeff is an honest man, who has been hammered by the economy and circumstances beyond his control. The town I live in had fourteen machine shops three years ago. All busy with irrigation widget repair and making parts, as well as the "do it all" nature of a full service shop. We are down to nine today, and two of them have had to cut back on staff. For gosh' sakes, the Midas muffler shop closed a couple months ago.

I think we just need to look around our own areas and see what the economy is doing. There is not much comfort in Jeff telling us "I've gotten screwed, a couple times, with the end in sight...". I'd guess he is scrambling to get these out.

I'm hanging tough,

Rich

That sounds like a hell of an arrangement! I wish I'd had extra money laying around during the original offering. I'm envious of you guys that were able to pony up for three, now any time down the road you can get three more. damnit, I hate myself for spending my money so fast sometimes, I never have extra when it counts.

Red

I appreciate Jeff for posting here as with many things a little attention goes a long ways. It is only right for him to offer refund for those who have lost confidence. With that there is no problem.

What disturbs me was the comment that "the deal was that the money was going towards the project with no refunds." I never had this agreement with Jeff, MontanaRifleman, MontanaRifleCo or anyone associated with the sale of the "PH" action. Maybe my order is so old that this was never brought to my attention and if it had, then I would most likely not have stayed in it. For me this was never an investment in to a project, but is simply a purchase waiting for delivery.

Rodney.

I am sure most appreciate the limited update, but once again, there is no mention of delivery dates.

As far as delivering an incomplete action (no firing pin), I would have to agree with Jeff that their liability insurance carrier would void coverage and probably cancel.

I can understand his problems that might be caused
by insurance company rules, as I mentioned them before
on delivering incomplete actions..

AND--It was my understanding when I got in on the initial
order, that when the card was charged, that the money was
going into making parts, heat treating, finishing parts,
buying parts,assembly and when process was done, I'd get what
I paid for. Things happen, but I am sure I'll get
the extra actions I have bought/and am buying now
from others.And the first one I got, I paid all,
the second one I got from other guy I paid all.
If the 3rd, etc we're working on needs an all pmt
at original buy in price, we pay all, if half,
we will pay half to the person and rest later
to company.....Ed

So much for the ....ants in the nut gallary.

Most of the posters don't know the first thing about running a company, the amount of capital, time, work etc., that is require as the owner of a company...NOR...the present day fact of supply companies going belly and totally FU**ing up you short, medium and long range plans...NOR...might I add...do very many of you have a couple million bucks in your pockets to stay solvent when the SCHAT hits the fan or what it takes to ride out the sh**storms when they hit.

And even if you do...why are YOU compounding the problem with your "expertise" in matters OUTSIDE your business????

90% of the people scattering their mindless twaddle on the net don't have the foggyest notion of the time requirements to run a company and the other 10% are too busy wasting time in front of the boob tube, in whatever form it takes, shooting of their faces on forums, going nuts over Monday night football or some Hollywood drivel, to ever comprehend what "doing business" IS.

I wanted at least one of those actions but didn't have the bread to order one...and I did read the fact that 500 orders were required to get the project off the ground AND the cancellation requirements...the fact that I could loose my 50% deposit if I cancelled...ALL that was spelled out in the terms and conditions...and is still there if you bother to read. I still want one but that isn't likely to happen.

If you can't read or understand that is YOUR problem.

The fact that the man is still getting on with solving the problems after this length of time and not just rolling over without a fight, says volumes to me.

Coupled with the fact that all the BULLSH** garbage scattered about on this forum...and I don't know how many others...has probably impacted the revenues of this company detrimentally.

What disturbs me is all you other "businessmen" spurred up and started raking just as bad as the dimwits who haven't a clue.

Offering your "expertise" then scattering it all over the net, then "emailing to get to the bottom of this" is nothing more than a blatant advertising ploy in my view...an offer of assistance is much better served quietly, between gentlemen, without all the self back patting and would have taken the high road rather than acting the politician. A quick 5 minute call and a posting of what is/was going on on his behalf would have helped the situation beyond words and probable stopped this vile thread.

I emailed one component supplier about an order, the communication lines got a bit blurred and in a reply he said he gets over 1000 emails a day...who has time to reply to that volume and still keep a company going, get some sleep and maybe a meal once in a while, not to mention the other normal functions of day to day living...

And how many of you even think or understand that simple fact when squawking about your two bit item...or even your $625 order...and how many of you are compounding the problem by the constant barrage of emails????????

Those of you that gave the man his due and the benefit of the doubt, are to be commended.

And he is to be commended for his efforts also.

The best way to get this problem solved is to let the man be...shut the FU** up, stay off his back and let the problem resolve itself...WITHOUT the mindless moanings of the whinners.

Foobar, I like your style.

Jeff- Thanks for finally replying. My offer still stands. However, I think we all deserve to know to know when exactly we can expect to start receiving these actions? I would also suggest that a regular update to all of us who have waited patiently for years would go along way towards improved relations. Radio silence is not a good way to keep customers informed particularly in view of excessively long delays. No one here wishes you anything but success, but by failing to keep us informed, you fuel a great deal of negative speculation. You dont need to write letters, just a simple update here would suffice. If you need more money to finish these actions ,I'm sure many of us would be willing to step up. However, I think a firm delivery schedule would be a minimum requirement.-Rob

Glad I read this thread as I was in the process of ordering a couple of lefty stainless actions. Think I will hold on to my money for awhile and make sure MRC can fill these orders before I send them payment.

Wonder if they will ship them cod? lol

I spoke with Jeff just a minute ago. I do not speak for him or MRC; but he has told me that he will be posting an update every Friday here. I think he is just so dang busy trying to get the actions completed and start shipping them that communication has lagged a bit.

Believe me, NOBODY here wants all the actions ordered shipped nearly as much as Jeff does.

Rich