Satterlee 4140 steel used. G.M. 8620 steel used.

http://www.satterleearms.com/african_magnum.htm

http://www.granitemountainarms.com/african.html#

Which is superior and why please?

Also, Satterlee offers to put the three position

safety on the left side for right handed shooters

claiming it's the better position for the right

thumb to operate it. Is this true? I am

thinking of doing a wildcat on 500 A2 brass

necked down into maybe a custom sized bullet

at .495 inch or a shade fatter.

quote:

Originally posted by BigFiveJack:
Satterlee 4140 steel used. G.M. 8620 steel used.

http://www.satterleearms.com/african_magnum.htm

http://www.granitemountainarms.com/african.html#

Which is superior and why please?

Granite Mountain because they actually produce and ship the product as well as providing a delivery date that they can come close to meeting.

It depends on the heat treatment. Properly heat treated I would take 8620 over the 4140.
Properly heat treated means case carburized and tempered for 8620 and through hardened then drawn back for 4140. The end result is a hard wear resistant surface (say Rockwell C55 to C60) and tough core (around Rockwell C30 to C40) for the 8620 while the 4140 toughness is slightly less than the 8620, but the 4140 doesn't have the hard wear resistant surface (Rockwell C32 to C42 throughout). We can get more technical if you want, but I don't think you really want to go there.

Regarding the safety I prefer it on the right hand side. This is probably because that is what I am used to and have used for about 40 years.

jjs,

are you accusing Stuart of not building his actions himself?
I would suggest that a rather blanket condemnation would require some sort of proof.

I doubt that GMA actually ships anything, I bet they use UPS or somebody.

Rich
I can't afford either, so I have no dog in this fight.

So Stuart finally did it.....he's been talking about those actions for some time. I think the action will be absolutely top drawer.....I hope he can erase some delivery issues of the past....I sure hope so anyway.

Couldn't go wrong with either....but I'd pick Stuart's.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

I would recommend that you really do your homework.

So Stuart hasn't changed his ways, I gather. Too bad. He was talking about CNC machines and making these actions a few years ago....matter of fact, I spoke with him on a couple of occasions for over an hour about it. I doubt the difference in the steel is enough to worry about in the rifle Jack's talking about....but the delivery and other factors sure are.

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
SCI
DSC

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
jjs,

are you accusing Stuart of not building his actions himself?
I would suggest that a rather blanket condemnation would require some sort of proof.

I doubt that GMA actually ships anything, I bet they use UPS or somebody.

Rich
I can't afford either, so I have no dog in this fight.

Are we attempting to be funny today? Use the search function and you will find enough information to understand what I said....not too many people have been having fun!

Jack,
The left handed safety lever is quicker on a rt. handed action than a Rt. handed safety on a Rt. handed action. I know Stuart puts out a high quality product he is a master gunsmith it's just when will I get it this year, next year, year after.

The GMA actions are heat treated after machining, and some of them are warped pretty bad, the Satterlee actions are hardened pre machining, so once machined and finished they are straight, in my opinion you can not compare the two
Daniel

M98,

Good points and exactly what I figured. The 8620 material, as I said earlier is superior to 4140 prehard, but one needs to finish machine the 8620 after heat treat to eliminate heat treat generated distortions. I would still go with the 8620 if properly heat treated, but I would want to know what the effective case depth was because I would be planning on truing the action once received and would not want to but through the case.

Scotts
i figure heat treating a reciver/bolt after machining is just a short cut to save $$$$$ on tooling, i figure why get a custom action and then get a hammer and start straightning it out, does not make sence to me.Get it done once and get it done propley
Daniel

M 98,

Actually it costs considerably more to case carburize than to work with a prehard billet of 4140. The heat treating time in case carburizing amounts to approximately 16 to 20 hours depending on a number of variables. The case carburized receiver will be superior to the pre hard billet receiver, but there is considerably more time, effort, attention to detail, and therefore money involved in the case carburized receiver. Due to the high surface hardness of the case carburized receiver wear will be practically non-existent and it will have a "smoother" feel in operation.

SCOTTS
the satterlee action , well you just cant get it any smoother, its like rubbing two bits of wet glass together,or at least the one i have
i dont know how involved case hardening is, but if its so expensive its not reflected in the price of the GMA actions.i know that you go through your carbide cutters a lot quicker with a pre hardened billet of 4140 with a ROCKWELL hardness in the mid to high 30s
If memory serves me right the satterlee recivers are 36-38 Rw
My self i will take the reciver made from a pre hardened billet of steel long before i take one which has been surface hardened

quote:

Satterlee offers to put the three position

safety on the left side for right handed shooters

claiming it's the better position for the right

thumb to operate it. Is this true?

Yes it is a better position if all your rifles have this set-up.

If you are used to hunting and shooting with a right side safety I would not change to a left side safety for my DG rifle.

I have two Satterlee magnum actions that Stuart is finishing up and will deliver in Febuary.

When I researched the GMA vs Satterlee question, I came to one conclusion. Stuart's actions are "finished" when done and the GMA's require a lot more work to be ready for bluing.

If your not in a hurry, you might talk to Stuart and get a estimate on delivery, but he is busy and my guess is atleast 18 months.

The GMA's delivery is 6-9 months.

Just depends on your time frame and how many people or steps you want to go through.

fast

With my experiences waiting on custom actions, I would buy the one I can put in my hand and go home with, even if it means building a gun on a CZ or Winchester action.

Talking about the type of steel used in an American custom action is like wondering what's for dinner in heaven; you have to get there first.

Anyway, good luck to you with your project.

I waited 18 months for a Satterlee action and then raised such a stink that I finally got my money back.
Meanwile I had put together the .395 Tatanka on a Dakota M76 African, then while waiting further offered to have Satterlee build the 500 Mbogo, but that went into a CZ 550 Magnum, due to failure to produce by Satterlee.

About 3 years after my original order, I heard he finished it up and somebody else bought it.
That person is now trying to sell that action, says the grapevine.
It was supposed to have been a stainless Magnum Mauser 98 for .416 Rigby based cartridge.
That action must be cursed.

I think one of our members here has about $10,000 tied up with Satterlee for about 5 years.
That pains us all.
Stuart: You know who. Finish your end of that deal and I will shut up.

RIP,

Thanks, as usual, for your solid comments.

Jim,
Very sound thinking on your part.

My custom made action for the 577 Tyrannosaur was machined of prehardened 4140 - hardness C40-42 throughout. In addition the action and bolt was treated with some kind of nitride treatment, making them very hard in the surface (HRC60+) and with superior corrosionresistance. In addition it got a beautyfull "french grey" finish.. It wasnt a GMA or a Satterlee. Just to tell that a hard "skin" can be acheived with prehardened 4140 steel

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Satterlee offers to put the three position

safety on the left side for right handed shooters

claiming it's the better position for the right

thumb to operate it. Is this true?

Yes it is a better position if all your rifles have this set-up.

If you are used to hunting and shooting with a right side safety I would not change to a left side safety for my DG rifle.

+1 Totally agree.

Is Satterlee out of business? Any one know for sure?

Are there any folks here who put down money for an action that has not bee delivered, other than those stating so above?

It will be three years this March since I sent a deposit for a complete rifle.The latest news I have is that the barreled action is ready for stocking and I should get some pics sent in the near future.I have not seen any pictures of any of the work yet and I hope to see some soon.

4140 vs 8620

4140 at 36 to 38 has a higher tensile strength than 8620. Machining pre-hard 4140 is more expensive from a tooling standpoint. In the end a receiver made of prehard 4140 can be more precise because we are not required to open up the tolerances between the bolt and the receiver to attain fit and function between the two parts. A better fitting bolt. A better fitting bolt means better feeding and overall function. Like M-98 says like two bits of glass sliding against each other.

My Satterlee Arms actions are superour actions weather the nay sayers like it or not. My true and loyal customers know it.

As far as production goes. It will not go out the door unfinished in a non-working condition.

The idea here is to make products that work and stay that way.

Yes, this takes time, if you have time and want something nicer then my action is for you.

You won't find much of anything that human life and safety depends on made of 8620.

This includes the axles on the car you drive to work. The bus your kids ride to school in.
The aircraft landing gear that just landed you safely so you can begin your next hunt instead of asking St.Peter if you have the right gate.

All 4140!

When talking gun parts. The 8620 has it's place.

Fred Wells liked the 8620 because it machined well on the equipment he owned,manual machines. It's no secret that zero condition 8620 is way easier to machine than 4140 prehard. If all you have is a bridgeport and HSS tooling 8620 is your material. get busy.
thats a lot of metal to move with a bridgeport.
been there done that. have you? no.

That's why I bought a VMC and yes this has increased production. and an Eldorado M-75 gundrill .707 dia hole in 11 minutes one shot not bad. Still it set me back 20k its a needed and good tool, drills prehard steel like butter.

By the way the GMA is actually Freds action with the rear tange screw boss changed so Fred could not take them to court. Roden pulled a quickie on Fred, sadly, Fred passed shortly after that. I feel lucky to have had a couple of very meaningful converstions with Fred Wells about making mausers, I paid close attention to what he had to say.

I've also have had the same converstion with HL Grisle about it.

Pete Grisle was sold on the 4140 for it's strength and lack of warpage in a finished receiver. Smart man. and he too produced actions that worked when the left the building.
Not a bad thing.

Wearability;
You could cycle a 4140 prehard action everyday all day long for the next 2 thousand years and it will never be as loose as milsurp m-98 action.

In the real world parts that are properly heat treated then machined last a very very long time. How long is that. We will all be long dead thats how long.


A bolt than passes thru a precision pre-hard receiver does not wear out the receiver because it fits.

Scotts you are incorrect.
Have a nice day RIP.
Satterlee

Stu,
Glad to see you are still in business and delivering actions.

Hello Mr. Satterlee,

Thanks for the detailed answer about the steel question. So you

are in business for sure, to answer RUSTY'S question, and you seem

to have a delivery time of three years or longer based on a few of

the posts above. If you are honest when you take orders about how

long a man will have to wait to get his action, [and I'd even give

you six months of lag if you told me three years was my estimate]

and you produce what you said you will produce at the price that you

quoted, then no one has a valid complaint. Clearly RIP feels some

thing is not as it should be. Do you wish to put forth any defense

regarding this $10,000 matter that RIP sited? Ten-thousand U S dollars

is a LOT of cash in my book. Also do you care to comment on RIP's own

deaings with you? I guess it's obvious that we all want the best

stuff that we can afford, and no one has said that your products

are less than excellent. I look forward to your response.

It might be fine and dandy for some to wait 5 years or more for a rifle, but very few would tolerate it without a truthful progress report about once yearly.

well, we ARE talking about RIP!

I had been unaware of the delivery issues with Stuart. It might be because he is out of my league as far as pricing. The quality is there from the half dozen rifles I have seen.

A friend has been waiting a year for his Bentley convertible, because he wants a special color leather for it, and Bubinga for the wood trim. I guess you can't hurry perfect.

I was wrong! about the delivery part, I apologize to the group here.

Rich

Just in case I gave the wrong impression, I have not dealt with Satterlee, but another custom manufacturer.

I know of Satterlee and Hein from this forum, and the member's bad experiences match my own with my wait on an action.

If an American company had a customer cancel an order and then posted the finished product here, I would fork over several thosand dollars to take it home.

I will never again order a custom action and shell out several thosand dollars and wait over 3 years for it and then told they don't have the action and they don't have the money to refund my payment.

Jeff Cooper built Baby on a CZ and I am kicking myself for not going that route.

quote:

You won't find much of anything that human life and safety depends on made of 8620.

This includes the axles on the car you drive to work. The bus your kids ride to school in.
The aircraft landing gear that just landed you safely so you can begin your next hunt instead of asking St.Peter if you have the right gate.

Mr. Satterlee,

On the parts you posted above you are the one who is wrong. Ignorance is bliss though so carry on.

ScottS,

how about sharing your tremendous expertise on steel alloys and heat treating, and your experience with building custom rifle actions with us proles here? I look forward to an extremely technical, yet entertaining couple pages of data.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
It might be fine and dandy for some to wait 5 years or more for a rifle, but very few would tolerate it without a truthful progress report about once yearly.

A friend of mine waited five years for a hand made guitar which the

maker says he puts 100 hours into each one he makes. His back log is

so long he now does NOT ACCEPT new customers, only guys who have already

bought a guitar from him. Some fine stuff out there is just that way,

long waits. Progress reports that you are moving up on the waiting list

is all that you can hope for during the first 80% of the wait sometimes.

It ain't pretty, but... I myself would NOT do it. I'd be maxed out at two

years. Wayne at AHR told me four months on the phone today at the worst

for a rifle using a CZ. Now CZ ain't Satterlee it seems. But if it's half

as fine as Saterlee after Wayne and his team get done with it it's still

very good indeed, and fully capable of being used as the foundation of a

600 OK rifle. That's pretty impressive to me.

So is it true that 4140 hardens deeper and 8620 hardens more on the surface?

Just repeating what I read. I have no dog in this fight but it would seem that a metal that hardens deeper is the winner.

BigJackFive,

Your goal was 5 down. How many down with the AHR gun based on a CZ550? I also spoke to AHR a while back and was very impressed (with I think wayne). Talk is one thing but more important the excellent + consensus from this forum. I dont want to call again until or unless I am serious. I had asked about something else then spoke very briefly the 585HE. Now I wonder, will AHR CZ in 600 hold 2, 4 or 5 down? I had the impression all the CZ550 in 600ok were single stack. I am curious. And, I also wonder about feeding a staggered mag with rebated 600. If you could, share some detials, I would appreciate. And maybe clear the air on advantages and limitations around the 600ok on the CZ by AHR.

thank you much

4B,

I actually indicated five total in the rifle including one in the chamber.
In another thread we have two respected posters stating that with CFR
repeatedly snapping the extractor over a chambered round will eventually
cause the extractor to break. But within the last seven days I had a respected
rifle maker tell me that the mechanism can be built in a way that snapping
the extractor over the round in the chamber is no problem at all. So I've asked
the guys to put forth their arguments. I asked Wayne today about mag capacity
on the 600 OK and he said in the basic build it is two in the mag, but he can
build it to hold three, "it will be like a coffin under the bottom". [his words]
I did not bring up the topic of single or double stack mag, my over sight.

quote:

So is it true that 4140 hardens deeper and 8620 hardens more on the surface?

Just repeating what I read. I have no dog in this fight but it would seem that a metal that hardens deeper is the winner.

Boomie,

4140 is a through hardening steel. The prehardened 4140 spoken of on this thread has been fully hardened and then drawn back to a hardness in the 35 to 45 Rockwell C range.

8620 is a case carburizing steel. It is carburized (baked in a carbon rich environment at high temperature for several hours the length of time being a function of desired effective case and the temperature of the carburizing furnace) it is then quench and tempered. The case carburized 8620 with have a core hardness in the range of 30 to 45 Rockwell C (depending on section thickness) and a surface hardness which is typically greater than 55 Rockwell C. The effective case, defined as the depth from the surface to a hardness of 50 Rockwell C is typically in the range of 0.030" to .070". The hardness then gradually reduces to the eventual core hardness, which in sections one would find in rifle receiver would be 35 to 45 Rockwell C.

So the 8620 receiver has a core hardness which for all practical purposes is as hard as the 4140 prehard is, and just as strong (actually it is tougher ie more resistance to fracture ie higher impact strength) with a much stronger and harder outer case. In this state the 8620 will easily out perform the 4140 prehard.

In the mobile transportation industry 8620 case carburzied steel is used extensively in gearing. Your car/truck transmission will have 8620 gears, as will the drive axles. The half shafts in you axles are typically 1038 or 1050. This is also true for heavier commercial vehicles, as well as, off highway equipment (farm tractors, combines, forestry equipment, and construction).

Rich,

This is the big bore forum, not the steel forum. I have already posted far too much and will discuss this no further.

ScottS
Thanks for that info.

So there a benefit to have a softer core to help in strength like a knife that is harder on the edge and a softer spine to prevent a break?

Thanks Jack.

FYI, I learned a trick on this forum about getting the extra round in the chamber.

First is obvious, you can remove the bolt and stick a round on the bolt and slide the bolt & round back into the action. No big deal.

The neat trick I got from AR forum, was to start a round into the chamber and put the base/head into the front of the magazine. The extractor will pick up the rim and feed it threw. Real slick trick.

Another plug for AHR: they offer a firing pin safety for the CZ550 which I would trust on a loaded gun. I am sure you have seen that. Its like the 98 Mauser and win M70. I just never able to trust a loaded rifle with a safety on the trigger like CZ from the factory.(that's me) This is a great upgrade from AHR. You can cycle ammo out or chamber one with firing pin blocked. [to be honest I did not get the AHR upgrade, I do have a M70]

This makes the CZ550 in 458Lott a six shooter and the 505Gibbs is good for five. The 585HE would also be a 5 shot, its the same case diameter as the Gibbs and no (or insignificant) rebate.

That three shot magazine is kinda ugly duck, IMHO, personal opinion, you really need to see it, then decide.

ScottS,

actually, it is the free exchange of knowledge forum, and I for one, want to tender my sincere thanks for what you have told us. I talked with Shiloh Sharps, and Steve Meacham (HiWalls); and both use 8620 in all of their castings, including receivers.

Thank You again for the information.

Rich