The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Satterlee and Granite MountainGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Yes, thank you both - interesting. | |||
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Mathematics, rates of production and pricing as related to custom actions. The discussion on this thread made me think of this and I thought those of you that buy actions might like a look at the basic math that affects production and delivery times. when I figured this out, it made more determined than ever I was not going to manufacture actions on any more than a very limited basis if at all. I also wondered how custom actions can be available for less than $2500. I recently had cause to prepare a business proposal for a friend of mine regarding the manufacture of custom actions. Before I even began writing, I developed a formula that helped me figure out the rough basics of the production schedule he was going to have to meet if he was to make expenses and provide a return to the investor. The result was quite disheartening but I persevered and finished the proposal and sent it off. The terms and abbreviations used in the formulas are as follows: YS=Yearly Salary desired SP= Sale price of each action MHS=cost of Materials, Heat Treating and Shipping per receiver MSE=Monthly Shop Expenses. This includes all shop, equipment, utilities, Rent and tooling expenses. To determine the annual production needs before returning any money to the investors, I used this formula AP=(YS+(MSE*12))/(SP-MHS) To determine the monthly production needs before returning any money to the investors, I used this formula MP=((YS/12)+MSE)/(SP-MHS) Those of you that want to can plug these formulas into a spreadsheet and manipulate the figures as you wish to see the outcomes for what you might deem to be more appropriate expenses This is what I came up with given the following constants: Yearly Salary (YS)=$30,000 Sale price of each action (SP)= $3500 Cost per receiver for Materials, Heat Treating and Shipping (MHS)=$300 Monthly Shop Expenses (MSE)=$1200 Yearly production Monthly production 13.875 receivers 1.56 receivers. If one were to lower the sale price to $2500, the following production figures would have to be met. Yearly production Monthly production 20.182 receivers. 1.682 receivers. This seems to be a reasonable figure if one has automated equipment and a machining center. Suppose an individual did not want to work themselves to death and hired an assistant for $10 per hour. This would result in the following rates of production: If receivers sell for $3500, Yearly production Monthly production 20.375 receivers 1.698 receivers. If receivers sell for $2500, Yearly production Monthly production 29.636 receivers. 2.470 receivers. Now if one adds on a 5% annual return to the investors on an initial investment of $400,000 this bumps the figures up considerably. If receivers sell for $3500, Yearly production Monthly production 26.625 receivers 2.219 receivers. If receivers sell for $2500, Yearly production Monthly production 38.727 receivers 3.227 receivers. Notice how the production quickly rose from a leisurely 13.875 receivers to the more intense figure of 38.727 receivers, more than a 100 percent increase. All that just to have one employee and provide the investors with a meager five percent return on their investment. If one went for a 10 percent return, and $2500 sale price, the production jumps to nearly 48 receivers per year. I wonder if the market price would remain as high if 48 additional receivers were dumped on the market each year. I kind of doubt it. Anyway, there are two potential investors willing to try to work with the principal I wrote the proposal for and take a hard look at the probable figures so they can see if the enterprise will actually float. Since they are far more business savvy than I, it just might work. If I was to attempt this on my own without any business advice, I would be bankrupt in a very short time. I hope to be down at Reno this year (on the investor’s dime) and will spend the time looking over the other products there while they discuss the issues. Hope to see you there! Maybe there will be some more quality custom actions on the market soon and I will have been a small part of getting them there! | |||
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Sounds like you have the equipment To make it any caliber you want. | |||
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My answer is: http://www.golmatic.de/Waffen_...arf_en/system_en.htm | |||
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Not to rain on your parade and hope it works out for you and your investors, but for several years members of the firm's staff would assemble very similar studies w/ exhaustive research, data, and yes, facts for my review and presentation to the Board. Operational expenses, approved budgets were managed by senior management and executive officers, but investment funding required Board approval. Now having said all of that, the overriding question and one investors are wanting to hear is what is the market for the product and what share can you capture?? Not to overstate the obvious, but how many can you sell at a verifiable profit?? Most sales projections are overoptomistic and shrewd investors will discount the number given unless there is a tack record of sales over a period of time. The investors, if they have knowledge of your ability to mfg. the actions or perhaps even knowlgeable themselves, will take note of the process to produce, but in reality could care less as long as the volume and profit from sales is there. Std. rule in business is that the activity must be legal and profitable and the profits deliver desired return on investment. Would you venture to say that the total market for these actions would be 500/yr?? I doubt that, but if it were so, new entry into the market is not likely to capture more than 10% upon start up, if that, and that would yield a production requirement of 50 actions. You generated the numbers and by plugging those into your forecast is such a number of sales suffecient to make a viable business venture?? Did not go back and review your numbers, but have you considered the liability insurance costs surely to be involved for that is a significant number to be reckoned with these days. Guns, lawyers, accidents, all equal to court costs and suits and unfortunately "crap happens." Again, not attempting to be negative, but I have no personal feelings in the venture whatsoever and only attempted to offer objective business questions for your consideration. I wish you the very best in your venture. martin | |||
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I never heard these ideas before and never thought of them. I am ecstatic that you posted them!  I am not able to picture number 2 though, so can you possibly word it another way. Or maybe somebody wants to video themself doing this and posting it on our videos here? I really appreciate it. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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Big five, If you currently own a rifle with a decent Mauser action. an oberndorf? an 09 argentine? Pick it up and admire it. close the action feel the cams, very smooth. I make mine the same way. Smooth. Dare I mention the brand. has the roughest cams of any, thats any action I've ever seen or felt. caused by incorrect or no cutter geometry metal literally plowed away. very choppy, not smooth at all. YUCK is how it feels. oh yea it can be lapped. The point is for 3250.00 it shouldn't have to be lapped. Scott who? never heard of him. Timan | |||
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I posted the below directly to Mr. Satterlee: Hello Mr. Satterlee, Thanks for the detailed answer about the steel question. So you are in business for sure, to answer RUSTY'S question, and you seem to have a delivery time of three years or longer based on a few of the posts above. If you are honest when you take orders about how long a man will have to wait to get his action, [and I'd even give you six months of lag if you told me three years was my estimate] and you produce what you said you will produce at the price that you quoted, then no one has a valid complaint. Clearly RIP feels some thing is not as it should be. Do you wish to put forth any defense regarding this $10,000 matter that RIP sited? Ten-thousand U S dollars is a LOT of cash in my book. Also do you care to comment on RIP's own deaings with you? I guess it's obvious that we all want the best stuff that we can afford, and no one has said that your products are less than excellent. I look forward to your response. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Below is his post directly to me, I guess in response to my post:
I don't own such a Mauser yet unfortunately. I don't know what he's taking about with the product that costs $3250 and needs parts lapped. Does any one? I don't want this post of mine to sound like wise cracks, it's not intended to. I just want to make a smart choice on which action to buy. Mr Satterlee did not comment on the ten thousand dollar issue raised by RIP, nor did Mr Satterlee comment on the specifics of RIP's dealings with him. Over sight? So angry at having certain things posted about him that he was distracted enough to forget? Or maybe something else. For now I have to get more info before choosing which action to go with. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I don't understand how anyone would think that any small businessman, whether a custom gunmaker or otherwise, would respond to some of the posts that have been made on this thread. Write to any other business and ask them how they conduct business or what their business practices are and you will be told to go fly a kite. Its really quite simple. If you don't think you can accept a long wait, or if you don't like what you have heard about a particular Maker's business practices, or if you don't like the steel he uses, then don't make an order. | |||
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This is utter non-sense. Satterlee and new_guy have promoted their "business" on this site. | |||
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If a guy in business is faced with a public post that says unflattering things about him and or his business, why can't he be encouraged to come up and publically defend himself? He does not have to respond if he does not want to. I believe in hearing "from the horses mouth" as much info as I can. It eliminates much nonsense. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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How many threads did you post about the MRC PH action? How many related posts did you make? ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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If it was me, I would talk to the "horse" and then check with "all the cowboys" to see if what the "horse" says has any merit. It's your money, so you do what you think is best. | |||
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Dead on. 22 WRF does not seem to get that. Get both, or all sides from the sources, not hearsay. Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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In a nutshell: If you want one of Sturat's actions and are comfortable with the delivery timeframe, order one. If you are not, don't. RIP made the accusation here, I think HE needs to post the details. It is not fair to say "so and so is a cheat..." and not document all the details. If I had the money, I would have a Satterlee ordered by now. I just spend it all on hunting trips with my CZ's. Rich | |||
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MFD, you are preaching to the choir; this is not my show. I just wrote the proposal of which you only saw the formula because I sanitized the data so I did not break confidentiality. Yes, I did consider the cost of insurance, lawyers, and an accountant; even average utility costs for the last 4 years and the anticipated rate hike coming our way. Probably a better proposal than you would expect from someone without a business degree and associated background. I did my best to make it sound promising without lying, but to me, I wouldn’t undertake such a risky venture. I believe the market to be near saturation unless you have something very distinct and at a very competitive price. If this gets off the ground, thank the powers that be there are people out there willing to risk their money on ventures like this. I originally was the one looking for investors until I actually did the numbers. The only things I bring to the enterprise is my experience, three rifle designs, production / tool and die experience, and considerable knowledge. As I said in the original post, if I tried this on my own, I would be bankrupt very quickly. This is why I am lending my support to the endeavor, I like making rifles, I have done it in my military career, on my own and worked for a manufacturer many of you are familiar with. My hat is off to all the manufacturers being discussed on these forums for taking the risks I can’t; the best I could do is one at a time on my own. Never volume, probably not as good as the masters I see in the guild work but still glad to be contributing and learning with each effort . . . and, yes, I am sad I am not in the show like I always wanted to be. | |||
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Any further details beyond what I have posted belong to a member already posting on this thread. He seems to be unhappily bearing up under the abuses of Satterlee's business practices. I shall disabuse myself of them now ... As Benjamin Franklin said: "Fart proudly!" Ahhhhh ... that was good! DRG says: "Kiss my liberal grits!"  | |||
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RIP let one rip? You have to give it to Ol' Ben $100 bill Franklin for not being overly concerned with the feelings of others or King George. Be a Patriot! Fart Proudly! 
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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get a map. Spearfish is within spitting distance of Rapid City, home of Remington-Dakota Arms. Rich | |||
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Impingement, Seems to me like the market hasn't reached saturation yet. You have Potential customers unhappy with GMA becasue of their material selection, their cost and their finished condition. You have potential customers unhappy with Saterlee because of his very extended delivery dates (his backlog on its own indicates room for another action maker in his quality and price range.) You have potential customers unhappy with MRC's long and continuing pre-production delays. My own experience with MRC actions, one each short and magnum length actions, tells me there is room for a better quality action for more money with a definite delivery date. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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As to what kind of actions I make, right now - I do not have an FFL to manufacture so anything I make is for my own use; NO EXCEPTIONS! I am working the bugs out of a 5.7X28 design I have made a non-firing prototype of this out of aluminum so I can do more dimensional corrections before I order the prehardened 4140 and begin work. I also have made a prototype of a cocking mechanism for a singleshot I have on paper; this one is proving more difficult. I have in the past made primarily Mauser copies. Those were my first gun making efforts, sadly my first wife disposed of them while I was deployed and I have posted on the forum to see if anyone has seen them so I could at least have pictures of them. While in the military I made several special purpose weapons, two of these were actual ground up designs, the rest were radical modifications of existing designs; none were adopted for issue. While working for another manufacturer, I helped do the machining and fitting functions for Mauser style actions. I own most of the equipment needed and can borrow the rest if I have to. I am slow, but then again, I am the only one that has to be happy. As to the PM’s I am NOT looking to get into the business. I wrote the proposal for a friend and if he starts up, I will help him along. Unfortunately, my back will no longer allow me to stand in front of a lathe, mill, or machining center on a daily basis; as I said, I am functionally out of the game as a primary player. I might have a few good innings left if it works out. I intend on finishing out the 30 or so years I have left on this planet trying to do the things that give me joy while engaging in as little conflict as possible. I like to see other people succeed. I have given away several single shot designs, one takedown design and hoped the individuals took them and ran with them. It is just what I do, it does not make me special or smart, it is just what I enjoy. I would hope that each of you are not special because of what you do, it is who you are that makes what you do special. The purpose of posting the formulas and commentary was to show that the average maker of actions is not paid very well and that the prices we see are really kind of reasonable. I am unwilling to accept the financial and physical risks to get in the business for such an average salary. I respect those that do try even if they fail. I apologize for misdirecting the thread. Lastly, I am really pleased that someone is researching all the aspects of a custom rifle / action before he buys one. This shows me that this is an important decision and that he will be likely to think he has the best action he could afford; when you are satisfied with what you shoot, you shoot better and enjoy life more. As to potential customers, they are just potential, I do not have what it takes to gamble that big again. My friend feels like you do, and I am supporting him the best I can. I like being in the picture even if I am not the star. Kudos to BigFiveJack, lets help him make a decision he will be satisfied with. | |||
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I have a Satterlee receiver and it is very nice. Roger Vardy wanted it more than I. I should have said had instead of have, but I haven't shipped it yet. If you're making an action to make money, make a Remington clone. A lot of folks make them and make money. I would venture to guess that Stiller makes at least 2-300 a year. John Pierce, Jim Borden, Phoenix Arms, Nesika, Kelblys, Surgeon, Lawton, and others. Yes, they are easier made and are a hell of a lot cheaper. $800-$1000 retail. Last time I was at Stillers he had 6 cnc milling centers, 2 cnc lathes, and 2 deep throat wire EDM machines. I think he has no more than 4 fulltime employees and himself, but they all know what the hell they are doing. It is a business and Stiller knows metals, heat treating, and metal coatings. There is a market for the Mausers, but the right group has to tackle it. The investors need to be the engineers and machinest that are taking the risk and making them. It ain't going to work to have a couple fat cats on the side harrassing the help and the help needs a big carrot in front of their nose. That is my story and I am sticking to it. Butch | |||
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Amen to Butch and why are we interested in where Spearfish is? it is 10 miles east of Wyoming on I-90, I live there. I would encourage anyone looking for an evaluation of the different actions go to SCI in Reno and do some hands on fact finding. I would consider it money well spent to be happy with what I ordered. I am quite sure what my decision would be if Iwanted to buy an action and could walk in the door with $3500 and walk out the door with an action. | |||
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If possible, can you post some of your design ideas. I am sure plenty here would be more than curious like myself. Thanks
577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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This thread is to address a different question. PM me and we will discuss it. I expect confidentiality before I show them around. | |||
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you can send me that PM as well, if you would please? Rich | |||
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 ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Could Satterlee please tell us how many finished actions were delivered to customers in 2009? Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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I was wrong on my estimate of Stiller's production. How about 800-900 this year. Actually they're quite a lot more machining operations in the mauser receivers and also on the bolt. Round receivers are much easier to machine. The clone MFGs can go to Dave Kiff and he makes their bolts for them. Probably $45-$65ea. You take a piece of round stock, take it to say a company like Shilen that has a deep hole drill and have it drilled. When you get it back you either ream the hole and broach the raceways, or cut them with wire EDM. CNC lathe to bore and thread for the tenon and to the mill to cut the tang and bolt cut out. Pretty simple compared to a mauser. Butch | |||
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Dream on. you are a jonny come lately. Timan | |||
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what about 4140 prehardened to around 40 HRC and then given a nitride treatment to make the skin 60++ HRC ?? | |||
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regarding 8620 alloy I was told by a metallurgist that a skin hardness of around 60 HRC was possible (case hardening) BUT that the core would be much softer than the claimed 35-45 HRC by ScottS. More like 25-30 HRC. Therefore he suggested 4140 alloy as the superior alloy to use for a rifle receiver and bolt.. | |||
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I believe you are right buffalo. Butch | |||
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Was your post aimed at me Stu? Butch | |||
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Butch, Absolutely not. In no way. Stu | |||
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Buffalo got me!
Actually I would say that it would be hard to get a surface hardness of better than 50 Rockwell C (and this hard skin would only be a 0.002" to 0.004" thick too) and a core hardness which would reliably register on the Rockwell C scale (lower the 18 Rockwell C). I was even bullshitting about the vehicles too. Gears and axles seem to almost universally made out of 4140. Go figure. There must be something seriously wrong with me. Good on you Buffalo!!! 4140 is probably the greatest steel alloy ever devised by man!! | |||
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I do believe CZ's idea just above is worth investigating... Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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I agree, if only I could select an action pay for it and be done...but it seems that may be the problem....it appears no one is able to "make to stock" such an action or at least finish it in a short time frame. Satterlee, your problem is you do not live up to expectations in terms of delivery...If you had an action available to sell I would be more than happy to purchase...but your reputation on delivery is lacking and how is one to TRUST you when you have not fulfilled orders that are 5+/-years old, yet you deliver or provide new_guy product...stop the BS and deliver! Stop putting others is front of those that have paid you! I do not see where new_guy has update your website so why in the heck is he getting stuff in front of those that have paid $$$$$ When you have a complete action for sale let me know but after you have fulfilled your backlog! | |||
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This part that I made bold and in red, WHAT DOES IT MEAN, new_guy updating Satterlee's web site? Jack OH GOD! {Seriously, we need the help.} | |||
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