quote:

Originally posted by Paul Truccolo:
RIP, I admire your dedication to the .458 Win mag

Although I have never personally owned one I have guided quite a few buffalo hunters who were using one at the time and have a lot of respect for the cartridge which has no doubt been "invigorated" with today's modern powders and projectiles.

I'd like to suggest that it is my impression, whilst in the field, is that (despite the "old-school" heavy for caliber lead projectiles) the 450gn bullet weight at 2200fps, in something like a North Fork, G.S Custom, Rhino, C.E.B et all, turns the Win mag in to another beast.

Certainly not dictating to anyone in what you use but just a consideration for you .458 Win mag shooters that a solidly constructed 450gner is the "ducks-guts" in this cartridge.

There is a stock maker in Australia, Ross Waghorn in Victoria, you might know him or know of him....Ross (also used to do the metal work) is a real traditionalist when it comes to calibres. However, years ago he told me that the 338 Winchester did better on the Buffalo than the 404 Jeffery and I think he was referring to original ballistics for the 404 being used.

There is a bloke on Australia's biggest guns/hunting site who is about to receive his Searcy in 500 Nitro. He said he got it because he just wanted a double. However, he reckons on the buffalo the 460 Wby is the go for killing them and beats the 500 Nitro hands down.

I have never shot any big stuff but the feeling I have and this includes animals, trees, rocks or whatever is with the lead core bullet (very limited experience with Barnes X type bullets) that there are a few velocity levels where things seem to really change.

1200-1300 f/s is just another class compared to 1000 f/s. 2000 f/s is another huge jump and the next one is to the 2500 f/s plus to about 2800 f/s.

Just look at very small calibres and the jump from sub sonic rim fire to the high velocity and them to the 22 magnum and then the huge jump to the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.

I'll be checking that BC of 0.236 with the SlugHunter scope by Nikon, any which way I can, out to 600 yards if it is not too windy:

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
1200-1300 f/s is just another class compared to 1000 f/s.
Also makes more noise as it goes supersonic.
2000 f/s is another huge jump and the next one is to the 2500 f/s plus to about 2800 f/s.
Just look at very small calibres and the jump from sub sonic rim fire
to the high velocity and them to the 22 magnum and then the huge jump to the 22 Hornet and 218 Bee.

I'll play.
Say 1,111 fps is about Mach 1.
Maybe say Mach 2 at 2,222 fps is a noticeable step up in trauma to big game tissue?
Maybe another step up occurs near Mach 2.5 or 2,777.5 fps?
Works for the Walterhog on cape buffalo, favored by our host,
who sees no improvement with velocities above 2800 fps.
Faster speeds get really hard on the bullet impacting that big game tissue.
Diminishing returns set in, except for ranging ability.
Not much practical for big game bullets occurs above Mach 3 or 3,333 fps.
Mach 2 to Mach 3.
Mach 2.52 = 2,800 fps.
Exercise dominion at Mach 2.52?

Rip
.

Ross Seyfried was one of the loudest of .458 WinMag bashers
until he did that article on the .458 Lott and compared the loads for both,
side by side.

That was late in 2002.

Did he hang his head in shame and vanish from Wolfe Publications soon after that,
because of that?

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Ross Seyfried was one of the loudest of .458 WinMag bashers
until he did that article on the .458 Lott and compared the loads for both,
side by side.

That was late in 2002.

Did he hang his head in shame and vanish from Wolfe Publications soon after that,
because of that?

Rip
.

Rip, you meant "In defiance of the 458" by Ross?

Would be nice to read the article in case you can post it!

It was in 2004 according to this link
https://www.riflemagazine.com/...e/index.cfm?magid=84

quote:

Truccolo:
I'd like to suggest that it is my impression, whilst in the field, is that (despite the "old-school" heavy for caliber lead projectiles) the 450gn bullet weight at 2200fps, in something like a North Fork, G.S Custom, Rhino, C.E.B et all, turns the Win mag in to another beast.

Certainly not dictating to anyone in what you use but just a consideration for you .458 Win mag shooters that a solidly constructed 450gner is the "ducks-guts" in this cartridge.

quote:

Mach 2 to Mach 3.
Mach 2.52 = 2,800 fps.
Exercise dominion at Mach 2.52?
:Wink:
Rip

Yes, 450 grains is something to consider.
The 450 grain GSC is a great bullet in the .510" rifles. My 500 AccRel Nyati sends that bullet out at 2650 fps, though it doesn't have the capacity to do the magic 2800fps (that 2800 with 450 grains requires an A2 sized case or larger). For more pleasant shooting I am currently debating whether to load up a bunch at 2500fps or 2600fps as a standard hunting load for the rifle.

For 2800-2850 fps I need to use either our 416 Rigbys and hand-load the 350 grain TTSX, or else in the 500 AccRel Nyati I need the 360-grain, tipped, lever-Raptor. I've done a lot of hunting around 2800fps and concur that it is an effective velocity.

I have a big "Ross Seyfried Binder" like Romney kept binders on women.

It is just a comedy schtick, a short pontification in which Ross almost bit off his tongue in cheek.
It was the only drivel Ross ever wrote in his illustrious career.

It was a near last gasp at Wolfe Pubs before he moved on to pastures more to his liking.
As an out-to-pasture MD, I can only say that I hope Ross got some help with his delusional disorder.

His family pioneered a county in Colorado?
Last I heard he was living in Western Kentucky.
Anybody heard from him lately?
Hopefully he is not at Western State Psychiatric Hospital.
If he is, I wonder if he is allowed visitors.

Rip
.

The picture that accompanied the article is the most interesting part:





(The famous/infamous "Lucky Shirt" photo used to sell subscriptions to AMERICAN HANDGUNNER in 1979.)

Rip
.

Back to sanity:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Over the past 40 years I have used a lot of different calibers on a lot of bears and finally gave up trying to find a better round for killing big bears than the 458.
2000 fps with 500 gr loads is a relatively mild load and by using AA2230 powder 2200 fps is possible.
Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Above from:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/1821093632

Rip
.

Rip, you are the man!

For those interested-there is a sale available in the US for those Slughunter scopes:

https://www.midsouthshooterssu...reticle-matte-finish

$169+free shipping.

416Tanzan,

That is good information.
Glad I tried that scope at your suggestion.
It may replace the Leupold 2.5-8x36mm as my favorite.
I have two of them already, picked up at the local Academy Sports stores.

Specifications:
Magnification: 3-9x
Objective Diameter: 40mm
Exit Pupil: 4.4-13.3mm
Field of View: 8.4-25.2 ft @ 100 yds
Tube Diameter - Other: 1 in
Eye Relief: 5in
Eyepiece Outside Diameter: 44mm
Weight: 14.7 oz
Overall Length: 11.4 in
Adjustment Graduation - Other: 1/4 in
Max Internal Adjustment: 60 MOA
Parallax Setting - Other: 75 yds

If any of my big bore scopes go TU they will get replaced with a Nikon SlugHunter 3-9X.
The only complaint I have for them is that extension rings are required to put them on a Ruger M77 Hawkeye,
due to the short ring spacing required.
Or a Picatinny rail, or cross-slot base overhang of the ejection port, on a long action such as the Winchester M70, or CZ 550 Magnum.
But I can live with that, no problem, really!
Love that SlugHunter.
I will see how it holds up to 500-grainers at +2200 fps
and 600-grainers at +2100 fps
in the .458 Winchester Magnum Bastard.

Rip
.

Next 30 shots from the WinCzechster:

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
Rip, you are the man!

Gustavo,

Flattery will get you anywhere you want to go ...
Here is the lunacy of Ross Seyfried, a real page turner:

Now turn the page to page 20 for the conclusion ...
Rip
.

I must confess that I own more .45-caliber rifles than any other.
It is just simply the quintessential American caliber, rifle and handgun.

Rip
.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
416Tanzan,

That is good information.
Glad I tried that scope at your suggestion.
It may replace the Leupold 2.5-8x36mm as my favorite.
I have two of them already, picked up at the local Academy Sports stores.

Specifications:
Magnification: 3-9x
Objective Diameter: 40mm
Exit Pupil: 4.4-13.3mm
Field of View: 8.4-25.2 ft @ 100 yds
Tube Diameter - Other: 1 in
Eye Relief: 5in
Eyepiece Outside Diameter: 44mm
Weight: 14.7 oz
Overall Length: 11.4 in
Adjustment Graduation - Other: 1/4 in
Max Internal Adjustment: 60 MOA
Parallax Setting - Other: 75 yds

If any of my big bore scopes go TU they will get replaced with a Nikon SlugHunter 3-9X.
The only complaint I have for them is that extension rings are required to put them on a Ruger M77 Hawkeye,
due to the short ring spacing required.
Or a Picatinny rail, or cross-slot base overhang of the ejection port, on a long action such as the Winchester M70, or CZ 550 Magnum.
But I can live with that, no problem, really!
Love that SlugHunter.
I will see how it holds up to 500-grainers at +2200 fps
and 600-grainers at +2100 fps
in the .458 Winchester Magnum Bastard.

Rip
.

That 2.5-8x36 Leupold (actually 2.6-7.8) is still a good scope for lighter caliber. I've enjoyed them since the 80's. I've gone to the Nikon Monarch 2-8x36 (eye-relief a respectable 4") where I need longer mounting length. My basic complaint with the Slughunter and Inline is their short mounting length, 4.73", but there are ways to solve that.

Personally, I put the Inline on my heavies, but that is because I want the same rifle for a 200-300 yard hartebeest or oribi, too. I've also put it on my wife's 375 Ruger because she has delicate eyebrows and I like them that way. The Inline uses a 100-yard parallax setting instead of the Slughunter's 75 yards. The Slughunter parallax probably fits the 458 more perfectly for dangerous game only, and parallax is more problematic in-close than far away.

MidSouthShootersSupply.com $169 Slughunter for the next couple of days. It's the best I've seen over the past couple of years.

=

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...dc-200-reticle-matte

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...40mm-bdc-300-reticle

The In-Line is same scope as the SlugHunter but with different reticle, BDC-300

instead of BDC-200

and 100-yard parallax instead of 75-yard parallax.

The In-Line would be my next scope purchase if I need another scope, for a .458 WinMag.

Rip
.

In the past I have used the 300gr Sierra pro-hunters, loaded fast, to exterminate water cooler bottles with spectacular results. However these were not accurate in my rifle and only suitable for close range affairs. Nonetheless, I was encouraged by your(RIP) results with the 300gr TTSX. Unfortunately the TTSX were not available locally and do to my driving desire(read as desire for immediate gratification) to see for myself I had to settle for the 300gr TSX (with the giant gaping hollow points). The results were as follows:

all 3 shot groups at 100yds

300gr TSX, 3.27 oal(seated in the first groove) 73.0gr IMR4198 - 2.262 group (awful)

300gr TSX, 3.35 oal (seated below the first groove - lee factory crimp) 73.0 gr IMR4198 - .792 group

(all fired from the Tupperware savage(push feed - not a 'proper' dgr) with ER Shaw barrel, 2x7 Leup. 8.2lb fighting weight with scope - lively with 500grainers)

I suspect that TTSXs may perform slightly better.

and looking forward to hearing how the Nikon slughunter holds up to 500 grain loads at full velocity.

JRN

Thanks for the great addition to the thread, jrn.

quote:

Originally posted by jrn:
... 300gr TSX (with the giant gaping hollow points):


I.e., the 45-70/lever-action version above versus the pointier version below:


The results were as follows:

all 3 shot groups at 100yds

300gr TSX, 3.27 oal(seated in the first groove) 73.0gr IMR4198 - 2.262 group (awful)

300gr TSX, 3.35 oal (seated below the first groove - lee factory crimp) 73.0 gr IMR4198 - .792 group ...

That is some good information to add to the .458 WinMag Mission.
Just a little longer COL improved the accuracy greatly.

I suspect that TTSXs may perform slightly better.

Looks like the weather is going to cooperate tomorrow.
I'll try them at longer range.

... and looking forward to hearing how the Nikon slughunter holds up to 500 grain loads at full velocity.

Yes, I'll get there eventually.
Milking it for all it is worth.

JRN

Load that .458 WinMag Shortclaw to longest possible COL for best accuracy results.
You'll have to add a little extra powder to keep the velocity up.
Keep increasing the bullet weight and length, and pretty soon you are leaving the .458 Lott in the dust,
with your .458 WinMag Longclaw:
"The Sword of the Bastard."

Rip
.

Have to add more powder to get that higher velocity with a longer COL.
Rip
.

Like jrn, I use the Lee Factory Crimp die on my .458 WinMag loads.
I have Redding, RCBS, and Lee dies for the .458 WinMag.
Had to buy the Lee Factory Crimp die separate.
I may use the other dies for simple roll crimping, but if I do,
I always run the loaded cartridges through the Lee Factory Crimp die to boot.

Rip.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Gustavo:
Rip, you are the man!

Gustavo,

Flattery will get you anywhere you want to go ...
Here is the lunacy of Ross Seyfried, a real page turner:

I knew it! You know me better than my Mom! LOL

Awesome post!!

My previous post for the 300gr tsx did not include velocity. As soon as i am satisfied with accuracy i will run through the chrono. May be a while. Bear season upcoming and he 458 will be in tow.

The lee factory crimp dies are great for psotively aeating bullets outside of the cannelure or groove. In my opinion they are worth the price of admission. Ymmv
JRN

jrn,
You are in good company on your bear rifle choice, according to Phil Shoemaker.
But please carry more than a 9mm pocket pistol as backup.
Yep,
That Lee crimper is worth its weight in gold.
A MUST if you don't have a cannelure where you want it.
Improves the crimp even when you have a cannelure and a light roll crimp where you want it.
The CH4D Can-Tool is also worth more than they charge for it.
Makes a serviceable cannelure anywhere you want it.

Rip
.

Gustavo,

Have you been eating your vegetables?

When Ross left Wolfe it was like:
"Ladies and gentlemen, Elvis has left the building."

Rip
.

Rip, the full extent for the reasons Ross left Wolfe are known by very few -- and I doubt you are one of them

But that article you posted portions of was played a very minor part