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Its just the wonder of the 458 Winchester !!    Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yep, It's a wonder alright! If you load the .458 Winchester Magnum to the same high pressure as the .458 Lott, WATCH OUT! For those who cannot accept the physics of this, let's just call it "magic."   Rip ... | |||
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Parts is parts. I have not forgotten about the Ruger No.1, for cast-bullet shooting with the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, slightly slower twist (1:18"), same old "magic" throat, and with the barrel bobbed to 28". The single-loaded 400-grain HV at 3.550" ridiculousCOL, presents no bullet-grip issues.  How fast will that one go? 2700 fps MV? And maybe the 1:18" twist will work for the 500-grain TSX at 3.780" COL? 83.0 grains of AA-2230 in the 24-7/8" WinCzechster barrel did 2342 fps MV. Accuracy will determine whether +2400 fps with 500-grainer is useful in the .458 Win. Mag. Ruger No.1:
That Ruger No.1 will be done next, Lord willin' and the creeks don't rise. Yes, even before the Ruger M77 Mk II with a stainless Shilen 1:14" twist, which is the crowning glory of .458 Winchester Magnum Rifledom. Still waiting on the Shilen barrel. Hey, I gotta pace myself, trying to stretch this out to 304+ pages. Rip ... | |||
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1:18" twist is good for a 1.650"-long, copper/monometal bullet at 1994 fps, according to the McGowen Barrels twist calculator. The slowest twist that will stabilize the same bullet at 2400 fps is 1:19.7". Plenty good, 1:18" twist for the Ruger No.1.  Rip ... | |||
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 Here is one that will clean up any .458 Winchester Magnum chamber, for single shot or double rifle flanged extraction perfection:   From tricks learned with the .458 Winchester Magnum, if the .458 WTF is loaded out to the same COL as the 450 NE 3-1/4" Thin Rim, 3.950", then the .458 WTF will have an effective/net about 12.5 grains water capacity greater than shown. This would make its net capacity a grain or two greater than the 450 NE. Use of the .458 Win. Mag. throat allows that, and would probably allow it to be a bugholer for accuracy. It also has the more robust rim and brass construction of the 400 S Jeffery aka 450/400 NE 3-Inch. That has also been with us since 1898, thanks to William Jackman Jeffery. It was the 400 S Jeffery from which he developed (1904-1905) the 404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express, the first ever truly satisfactory magazine-rifle cartridge for a DGR. Jackman was no jackaloper. Again note that the water capacities above are algorithm generated. The .458 Winchester Magnum with Hornady brass has a case capacity of about 94 grains H2O. Rip ... | |||
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Anyone objecting to calling it the ".458 WTF" could instead call it the ".458 S Jeffery Winchester-throated." .458 SJW. Rip ... | |||
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The .458 WTF is easy. Neck up the 450/400 NE 3" brass to .458 using an RCBS .375-.458 neck expander die, lube the necks inside. The brass shortens only about 30-thou, perfect for trimming to 2.950" brass max, 2.940" minimum. Seat bullets and crimp with RCBS 460 Weatherby Magnum dies. Voila! .458 WTF dummies: Shortest, with 3.750" COL, are 600-grain Barnes Original, no cannelure, and Hornady DGX. DGS was seated to 3.765" COL. Longest, with 4.000" COL, is 500-grain TSX seated in a case that was trimmed to 2.940" minimum. That 500-grain TSX bullet might be seated as short as 3.800" (also shown below) or as long as 4.250" (not shown).  | |||
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The Three Amigos, new inspiration for the .458 Longclaw Shooting Fraternity:  | |||
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The 10" octagonal gong at 500-yards, freshly spraypainted, on the way to the 30" round gong at 600 yards:  Looking back at the firing line from 600 yards, the little white dot on the road is my toy truck, just downrange from the 300-yard berm:  It was after closing time and I was the only one left to lock up and take down the flag. Nobody there to shoot me. Just another routine .458 Longclaw Shooting Fraternity meeting. Rip ... | |||
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The WTF strikes me as a 'wanna-be' design: too long and skinny, though it does have a shoulder. Olive-Oyl neck. But you know the saying: à chacun son goût. Those North Fork look pretty nice, especially in the RugerWinThroat. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Besides the .458WM the only other one making sense is the 458 "Ruger", the rest are just fun toys to play with, nothing wrong with that but not practical though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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I have one year of 8th-grade French under my belt. Rip ... | |||
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Gustavo, So you don't like the .458 WTF either? Sure, nothing wrong with meat loaf in a bolt action, but the WTF is not for bolt actions. The .458/400 S Jeffery Winchester Throat Flanged does improve on the 450 NE 3.25" Thin Rim with the unquestionably stronger 450/400 NE 3" brass. If the .458 Win. Mag. in a Ruger No.1 Creedmoor-style ever shows any extraction problems (unlikely), it could clean up the chamber. Any double rifle in .458 Win. Mag. with a lesser extractor than that of the Ruger No.1 could be rechambered with the .458 WTF. But hey, WTF! It now occurs to me that the full cartridge name is redundant since the "400 S Jeffery" part of it includes the "Flanged." It should be called more simply: .458/400 S Jeffery Winchester Throat id est .458 JWT That is more congruent with the .458 RWT nomenclature also.  Rip ... | |||
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Bon. Je devais parler comme ça quand je travaillais dans les pays francophones. Quatre-cinq-huit, pas mal. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Yup, What he said. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Ron, don't take me wrong, I like the .458WTF for what it was designed to do, but I argued from a practical point of view in terms of a bolt action. Like I said, nothing wrong with having fun, but if pressed to to make an informed decision, my vote goes for the .458 "Ruger" in case we really need another .458, which I don't because I'm perfectly happy with the Almighty already. I had a Ruger 1-H chambered in .458WM so I like single-shooters, but when in the bush I still prefer the comfort of a magazine...just a little bit of reassurance will never hurt in case the chips are down. Having said that, the WTF makes sense as you put it, wisely, for flanged guns!  Will the .458 "Ruger" see the light anytime soon as a factory offering? What do you think? Personally I don't get the idea of the .416 Ruger when the .458 would have made much more sense. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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I think the 416 Ruger has stronger sales than the 458 Ruger would. But a factory M77 African in 458 Ruger would probably sell fairly well, comparatively speaking. The Guide Gun would see much smaller sales as the 416s are more commonly seen up here. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Yep, I see no need for anything but a .458 Win. Mag. if a big bore is needed. But if I really get "more bored" someday, the .458 JWT and .458 RWT may happen. First I need to try some Black Powder loads in the .458 Win. Mag., set up Creedmoor style on Ruger No.1. Look out Quigley! The .458 Win. Mag. BPCR. The .458 Win. Mag will do it all!  Copied from the BPCR forum: Rolling Block 2.5" 20 gauge rifle. Creedmoor-style Ruger No.1 .458 Win. Mag. Ha ha. So my Ruger No.1 Creedmoor-style is going to be chambered for .458 Win. Mag. A Pedersoli take-off barrel that is a fat, non-tapered/straight octagon, 30-inches long, will have its corners turned down enough to screw onto the Ruger No.1. That will turn it into a fancy, 16-sided, hexadecagon barrel.  Cut to 28". Twist is 1:18". Might load some 45-90 BP loads for that. And that pesky 20-gauge Verney-Carron rifled barrel will get screwed onto the antique Rolling Block No.1. They actually existed once upon a time, firing the old BP 2-1/2" shells. Folded shotgun case COL about 2-1/6"? That ought to fit into the Rolling Block, and it won't need a 3.5" chamber. The 20 Gauge Ex Purgatorio muzzle brake will get screwed onto a NEF/H&R 20-gauge 3.5", for use with +900-grain lead slugs. There now, all parts accounted for. Parts is parts. Back to paper-patching for the 40-90 Sharps BN, Pedersoli 1874 re-chamber. This old dog is trying to learn a new trick, paper-patching soft lead bullets. Paper-patched bullets in the long throat of the .458 Win. Mag. BPCR?  Rip ... | |||
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Gustavo, to answer your question and to try to reconstruct the thinking of Ruger planners it might be instructive to use analogy. Think of the 30 calibers. A 30 caliber H&H magnum was available, but it was viewed as "long" after the 458 Winnie appeared. The 338 WM was an application of that new concept to medium-bores and within a few years that included a 30-cal 300WM. (Yes, the 300WM moved the shoulder, but it was essentially a 'standard-length' 30-cal magnum, maybe trying to compete with the 300Weatherby at the same time.) Both the 300WM and the 338WM have been outstanding successes in North America and around the world. However, a question arises, why not do a 375WinMag? Well, the step from 30 to 33 was felt to be sufficient in the hunting world and no one wanted to downgrade the 375H&H capacity. Recoil was considered tolerable for the 30 and 33 magnums and both became popular. Now return to the 375Ruger. It finally duplicated the 375H&H in a standard-length action, and then some. More power to it. So where should one take the concept when applying to larger bores? Ruger apparently decided that the 10% incremental step up to 41 caliber would be better tolerated and more applicable to North American hunters, similar to the gap between the 30 can and 33 cal magnums. Furthermore, the 458 already existed as a standard-length magnum but there was no standard-length 416. Voila--the 416 Ruger. By the way, the 416Ruger is a great round in its own right. It's main problem is that in North America the 375Ruger is more appealing for those that want a big heavy bullet for elk, moose, and bear, because the 375Ruger comes with lighter recoil. It is really Africa where the tables turn and the 416Ruger may become more useful and potentially attractive than the 375Ruger. However, the 458WinM is already available, so the 416Ruger is having a slower start. It becomes attractive to me when I think of downgrading to 5000 ft# levels. Then the 416Ruger makes great sense as a slightly flatter-shooting, lower recoil alternative to the 458. Maybe something like a 270 in comparison to the 30-06. Both the 270 and 30-06are great small-medium calibers. At the 40+ caliber level, The 416Ruger is only missing a Jack O'Connor. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Posted in the Africa section on 24 Hour NTO Online Content Campfire Regular Joined: Jul 2015 Posts: 852 Either the TSX or AFrame will be fine. Used a 450 gr A Frame from 458win was a 1 and done deal. I have a client that shoots Either the TSX or AFrame will be fine. Used a 450 gr A Frame from 458win was a 1 and done deal. I have a client that shoots 300tsx out of 458 lott and had gone 3 buff 3 shots. Quality bullet and placement they will die. 300tsx out of 458 lott and had gone 3 buff 3 shots. Quality bullet and placement they will die. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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Tanzan, your point on the .416 makes sense, and yes, of course it's a good cartridge but like you said it's missing a trusted champion like old Jack. My point on the other hand, was not to bash the .416. Was just to say, if you already have a successful .375Ruger why not step up a little bit more, jump over the .416Ruger and settle on the .458Ruger? Granted, that was not what history tell us, just my opinion. And given the decline of african hunting (or DG in general around the world) we are seeing these days thanks to all the trouble around hunting, guns, etc...it's hard from a business standpoint to justify a new development with such a narrow customer base. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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416Tanzan elucidated nicely the state of Ruger-Hornady cartridges, where we are now. I hold out no hope for a factory .458 Ruger cartridge. The second age of dinosaurs is passing, and that is us. The first thing Ruger should do in the way of a .458 is to offer the Hawkeye in .458 Win. Mag. But all the old guys already have one or will have one built, factory or custom, Mauser, Winchester, CZ, or Ruger. The new generation of metrosexuals seems to get by just fine without the Four-Five-Eight, and they will get by just fine without us dinosaurs. "Good Lord deliver us," calls the African nightjar. "Whip poor Will," calls the North American nightjar. "Cheer up cheerily," calls the American robin. It's a beautiful day in the robinhood ... (Sing it to the tune of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood) ... "Won't you be my robin?" I sing to the .458 Win. Mag. Rip ... | |||
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The 300-grain Barnes TTSX in the .458 Win. Mag. with 75.0 grains of H4198 did 2712 fps MV from the WinCzechster, at 3.390" COL. That is 0.050" beyond SAAMI COL, crimped solidly on the bottom cannelure of the 300-grainer. Works through a Ruger factory box length. Alas, that is only 4899 ft-lbs KE.  With 71.0 grains of H4198 and same COL it did only 2638 fps, but it was more accurate, 0.54 MOA for 3 shots. Alas, alas, only 4635 ft-lbs KE. More KE than a .375 H&H but lacking in SD, though the dead buffalo will never realize that from a monometal, maybe? The 400-grain HV at 2500 fps (5550 ft-lbs KE) is lacking in nothing, and nothing more is needed. Heck, you could even slow it down to 2375 fps and exceed 5000 ft-lbs KE. Even short-barrel, shortCOL .458 Win. Mag. rifles and loads will do that. See the Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker tests and field experience with 400-grain X-Bullets. That is more than anecdotal.  Rip ... | |||
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Genius  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Gustavo, You are too kind to this ol' dinosaur. "Genius" should apply more to the words of 416Tanzan. He has a good handle on the state of affairs, and is no metrosexual even if he does not own a .458 Win. Mag. and longs for a .416 Ruger. Must be the flinch from his 500 Nyati AR. The true geniuses may be the ones with the 20"-barreled .458 Win. Mag. Ruger M77 Hawkeye and Mark II rifles. My .459"-grooved, 24-7/8"-long barrel on the WinCzechster did 2478 fps MV with 400-grain HV and 80.0 grains of AA-2230. COL was 3.372", meant to work through a Ruger 3.4" box. A tighter Shilen barrel of .458" groove diameter, same 1:14" twist, but only 20" long, might well be over 2400 fps MV with same load. Maybe 2425 fps. For sure it is going to be over 2375 fps with the 400-grain HV. At an Aagaardian velocity of 2375 fps: 5009 ft-lbs Using a SlugHunter with sight height of 1.75" for calculation of trajectory, with BC = 0.372, and only 2375 fps MV: +2.9" high at 100 yards Maximum ordinate of +3.0" at 115 yards 0.0 (Zeroed) at 200 yards -4.8" at 250 yards -12.2 inches at 300 yards: 1-foot drop -36.0 inches at 400 yards: 3-foot drop -74.2 inches at 500 yards: 6-foot-2.2" drop I got the stainless extension front ring for my Ruger M77 Mark II. It will look nice when Cerakoted to match the rest of the .458 Win. Mag. rifle. Too bad they don't have an extension ring to use in the rear, the rings cannot be reversed on a Ruger integral base, unless CTF gets that one figured out. Not necessary with a Nikon SlugHunter, or any other Trijicon or Leupold I might want to put on it. Rip ... | |||
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Alas, we bemoan the fate of the 338, too. When everyone was expecting a 338Ruger to put a "340" into a standard-action, they downgraded to a 338-06?! Go figure!
Well, I watch my skin thinning and wondering about what that means for 'headsnap' inside a skull. I figure that between 70 and 80 one will need a more gentle shove. Remember RayAtkinson, well over 80? He claims that nowadays the 338 feels like a might-fine big bore, wonderful wapiti medicine.  Those still felt pretty good. Lining up for a 6200ft# sight-in over a bonnet/hood for an impala hunt 2015:  then comparing my one shot and my son's one shot from the same rifle, 100 yards:  so  The 416 is a good impala gun, even full capacity Rigby. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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GSC HV .458/400-grainer BC: 0.372 at 2500 fps 0.378 at 2050 fps 0.374 at 1600 fps Dropping down to 2375 fps to 2475 fps MV is not going to hurt the BC.  Thanks again, to Captain Obvious. The second dinosaur extinction is coming, get your kicks while you can. . . Summer is coming, before winter. Rip ... | |||
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 you are not, you are the LION KING of the .458WM, the WATCHER of the MISSION!------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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I took a couple with a simple .300WM alas! Go figure!  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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I guess if you put the bullet in the right place, you can get lucky. I'll have a Tusker, kubwa, baridi +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Here is the standard-reticle-scoped training rifle, a use for the old Ruger Roundtop .30-06. .308/180-grain Speer Mag Tip slowed down to 2400 fps to represent a 20-inch-barreled .458 Win. Mag. trajectory, for shooting the .458/400-grain HV at that 500-yard 10" gong:    Old matte silver Leupold scope and gloss stainless Weaver steel straps covered with Krylon to dull them. Getting the .30-06 180-grain Speer up to +2600 fps may be required for the trainer for the 28"-barreled Ruger No.1 .458 Win. Mag. with 400-grain HV. Kentucky Windage and Tennessee Elevation. When I eat the rest of my venison, I need to go harvest a bison with that 400-grain HV. The Ruger No.1 may be as close to a "Buffalo Bill Rifle" as I can get for the .458 Winchester Magnum Longclaw. Training rifle: Ruger No.1 .30-06 with Soule sight replacing the tang safety ... Rip ... | |||
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"One shot, MEAT! Two shot, MAYBE. Three shot HEAP BIG SHIT!" So said Crazy Horse after he heard a volley in the distance. Here is the Ruger M77 Mk II (.416 Taylor) with some feed dummies for the .458 Win. Mag. Any cartridge, with any nose profile, flat or pointy, up to 3.540" COL can be loaded off the top of the box (pushfeed), and it can be ejected if not fired, by simply working the bolt. That's 3 shorter cartridges of 3.395" or less loaded in the magazine box below, the CEB 450-grain Safari solid is shown at exactly 3.340", SAAMI maximum COL:  | |||
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Ready to pushfeed a longCOL off the top:  Ejecting the longCOL if not fired, dummy with an original X-Bullet 400-grainer with cannelure added:  The chambered HV .458/400-grainer loaded up to 3.550" COL will also eject loaded, unfired, but just barely clears the ejection port. So, 3.540" is a suggested maximum COL for a single-shot-style load of any bullet in this rifle. | |||
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That is peachy keen, because 3.495" is as long as I would ever want to load the HV in this rifle. Thus, the third cartridge in the box can be an HV, and the bolt closes easily over that, with the tip resting on the feed ramp. The fourth cartridge, an HV of 3.495" COL gets pushfed into the chamber:  It might work. One shot meat, two shot maybe ... Then two solids to save your bacon at close range if the crap hits the fan. I could go on and on about why the Ruger M77 Mk II or Hawkeye is superior for a .458 Win. Mag. I will not be re-barreling that Pre-'64 .300 H&H action just yet. Nor the Classic. Nor the CZ ... just yet. But a Ruger No.1 with a 28" barrel in .458 Win. Mag. does tickle my fancy. Rip ... | |||
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Wise choice! (maybe 28" is a tad bit long, isn´t it?)  ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ColdBore 1.0 - the ballistics/reloading software solution http://www.patagoniaballistics.com | |||
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Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Not in my opinion, on a single shot it’s about the equal of a bolt rifles 24” barrel in overall length. _____________________________________________________ A 9mm may expand to a larger diameter, but a 45 ain't going to shrink Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened. - Winston Churchill | |||
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jwp475, yep, that's right. A Ruger No.1 with a 20" barrel is short as a bolt action with a 16" barrel. It's like, where did the rest of the rifle go? So the 28"-barreled Ruger No.1 is going to be shorter than my 25"-barreled M77 Mk II. Gustavo and Cold Trigger Finger have the 20-incher well served. I want the original 25-incher of 1956, will put the Wisner African rear sight on the barrel too. maybe see if I can use one of those on the 28" Ruger No.1 also. Barrel length versus MV guesstimation of 400-grain HV in the .458 Win. Mag. with about 82.0 grains AA-2230, 3.495" COL, in .458"-grooved barrels: 20": 2400-2450 fps (2375-2425 fps with shortCOL and 80.0 grains AA-2230) 24": 2500 fps 28": 2550-2600 fps Velocity loss or gain for 4 inches of barrel may be closer to 50 fps instead of 100 fps, centering around 2500 fps for 24" barrel? Must try to see. Rip ... | |||
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Love the idea of your Number 1!! Can't wait for the addition to this thread when you get to this rifle!! Gonna take some Lube to make to the end of that 28" barrel when your loading cast RIP. Better talk to a few BPCR shooters on that as they have 28 and 30 inch rifles as the norm and will know how to get it done. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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