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Hey now, there is an idea for another approach to a "tropical load." Just switch to Hornady DGX-Bonded 480-grainer, if it gets too hot for the DGX-Bonded 500-grainer. That in itself will lower pressures, and shorten the COL too, same velocity for both at 2200 fps from a 24" barrel. Close enough for tropical DG work. I feel a book review of the Hornady 10th Edition coming on, for THE MISSION!  Rip ... | |||
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The problem with COL and elephants, though, is probably that Woodleigh solids at least are all longer than the softpoints. | |||
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Usually true, about solids being longer, especially if comparing a monometal solid to a cup&core soft. Hornady is just the opposite: Solid: 500-grain Hornady DGS is 1.383" Soft: 500-grain Hornady DGX-Bonded is 1.389" In a sample of one each that I measured. Close enough to be about 1.385" for both, which seems to be the Hornady design goal: Identical weight and length. The .458-cal/480-grain DGS & DGX must be designed to have the same seating depth as the .458/500-grain DGS & DGX. The Hornady manual COL for the 480-grainer is 3.200". For the 500-grainer COL is 3.310". Could this mean that the 480-grainer is 0.110" shorter? Are 480-grain DGS & DGX both about 1.275" long? Maybe Obi-Wan Bob will put his caliper to a 480-grain bullet for a rough measure of length, if he has not shot all of them? Rip ... | |||
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Book review excerpts follow, FROM HORNADY HANDBOOK OF CARTRIDGE RELOADING, TENTH EDITION, pp 767-769. Book review: I like that book.  | |||
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 The 300-grain HP is obviously throttled back to only 2100 fps MV at COL of 2.930", a greatly reduced load, so it does not vaporize in midair or on impact. The 350-grainer is good at 2500 fps MV, according to Hornady, at COL of 2.940" (FNSN) to 2.950" (RNSN). Get a load of the 2200 fps MV loads for the 480-grainer and 500-grainer, both from 24" barrel-ed Ruger M77: 71.1 gr of AA-2230 for the 480-grainer at 3.200" COL >>> 2200 fps 78.3 gr of AA-2230 for the 500-grainer at 3.310" COL >>> 2200 fps See next excerpt, starting the next page of THE MISSION.  Rip ... | |||
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The optimum elephant penetrator might be a monometal FN solid of 450-grain weight. If kept down to 2400 to 2450 fps MV, it matters not whether brass or copper monometal. Copper being shorter, COL could be shorter. Or keep the brass FN at 3.340" COL and settle for 2350 to 2400 fps. A 480-grain DGS is more than enough in bullet weight for any elephant brain shooting, IMHO. The old Holy .458 WIN Grail was 400-grainer at plus-2400 fps MV from a 24" barrel. Used to be hard to do. Now it is routine. Soft and solid 450-grainer at plus-2400 fps MV from a 24" barrel is easy with the born-again .458 WIN, using the new powders and bullets. Rip ... | |||
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Rip If there was a Nobel prize for “factual defense of an unfairly maligned cartridge” I’d put you in for it. Your mission has been simply outstanding. When you finish, would you consider taking up the cause of “America, the greatest experiment in human Freedom the World has ever known.” She could use your help. Highest Regards Sir. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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The 480 DGX from my Hornady box are 1.34". Results from today's shooting the 300gr TSX from the Ruger #1 "Tropical" - 24" Mag-na-ported barrel. Case: Rem. Primer: WLRM Powder: 82.5 grains H4198. 106% load density. COL = 3.325", crimped into bottom cannelure. Ambient conditions: Elevation: 900 ft. Temps: 20*C/68*F RH:50% Three shots in succession at 100 yards using a Caldwell Lead Sled. #1 = 2958 fps #2 = 2961 fps #3 = 2959 fps Average corrected to muzzle = 2980 fps/5911 ft-lbs Ejection was excellent. Condition of cases = excellent. Recoil = 45 ft-lbs with Mag-na-ports. Maximum load in volume. I've used 82 grains for the 350 TSX with excellent results; so why not try 82.5 for the 300 TSX. Good varmint load, I'd think. That's BIG varmints! Hoping that might be helpful. It's the load I'm going with for the 300 TSX. Also shot some other stuff. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Bob, I'm contributing nothing new here for the MISSION, but the first thing I thought of when I saw your excellent velocity numbers with that 300 grain TSX is "Who needs a .378 Weatherby or a .375 RUM?" Slightly worse BC when compared with the .375 bullets, but much bigger diameter that can still hit very hard at long range. And this 300 grain bullet is launched with much less powder out of a much more efficient case at the SAAMI shortCOL length! It just really hit me (I'm behind the curve) that with just one rifle, one could develop just three loads in different bullet weights, say 300, 400, and 500 grains, and with these three in the pocket, could be ready for practically anything at any reasonable range. Who needs a battery of rifles with this kind of performance? This .458 Win Mag cartridge might really catch on with this kind of versatility!  | |||
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Something must be haywire with that reloading data. With 2230 powder it appears that the starting load for the 500 gr bullets is higher than the max load for the 480 gr bullets. ?? What's up with that ? Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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My thinking, exactly!! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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It's seated deeper - made for the 450 NE, 3 1/4". The crimping groove is closer to the front-end of the bullet. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Load that 480 to the same OAL as the 500, hit it with a Lee factory Crimp die, put 78.3 grains of aa2230 and point it at a chrony. "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Sanity seems to be creeping back into this thread. We are getting back to a 480 at an easy 2150 or a 450 at 2250 both at standard OAL. All it was ever meant to be or needs to be. | |||
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Fury01, Thanks again for your unfaltering support of THE MISSION. About this:
That makes more sense than awarding a Nobel Peace Prize to an individual who accomplished zero toward world peace, which is totally illogical. That's politics! Nothing gets done without it and nothing gets done because of it:  | |||
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Bob, Thanks for the measurement of length on the 480-grain DGX: 1.34" vs. 500-grain DGX: 1.39" and your explanation later on about the cannelure being farther from the base of the 480-grainer. That explains the 0.110" shorter COL with just 0.050" shorter bullet. Might be some subtle difference in the ogive/meplat/nose shape too? Your H4198 data for the 300-grain TSX settles it for me. Outstanding! +2900 fps with 300-grain TSX is plenty in a .458 WIN. I'll save the AA-1680 for sub-300-grain Aluminum bullets in the .458 WIN, or, more likely, just use it in the .500 S&W. Rip ... | |||
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bcelliott, Good thought there: .375 H&H to .378 Weatherby with 300-grain bullet at +2500 to +2900 fps. .416 Rigby with 400-grainer at +2400 fps. .458 WIN with 500-grainer at +2150 fps. All possible with a .30-06-length magazine repeater. The "One Planet, One Rifle" contest has a new WINner. And so many more combos with so many more bullet weights are available. Even higher muzzle whomps too with the long and heavy bullets loaded LongCOL. A 3.6" maximum COL delivering .458 Lott ballistics at lower pressure than the Lott is a good thing. Lengthening the COL can more than compensate for barrel shortening, if you add 100 fps with LongCOL, and loose 50 fps with barrel shortening, just another nut in the candy. Rip ... | |||
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Good plan, for THE MISSION. I am going to have to order at least one box of those .458/480-grain DGX bullets to try it, for THE MISSION. Then revert back to 450-grainers and 500-grainers of which I have a big stock. And I am going to have to get some .458/300-grain TSX bullets. The BC on the .458/300-grain TTSX ain't that much better. One less thing to go wrong without the plastic tip banging the front of the magazine. Rip ... | |||
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BaxterB, Thanks for ringing THE MISSION bell. Rip ... | |||
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Also, I think the 300 TTSX has to be seated more deeply due to the BT, n'est-ce-pas? Yeah, .230 vs .234 will give a difference at 300 yds of less than 5 fps, depending on starting MV. Bob www.bigbores.ca www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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CTF, Bob answered your question, and mine too. When crimping on the cannelures of the Hornady DGX bullets, the 480-grainer is seated deeper and must be loaded with a lesser charge of powder, despite being 20 grains lighter in bullet weight. This is a great illustration of how loading LongCOL, seating to lesser depth, greatly reduces pressure in the .458 WIN. Both of those loads come out close to 60,000 PSI, SAAMI MAP, and both are coincidentally 2200 fps. Hornady recommends a muzzle-velocity window for both of those bullets of 1600 fps to 2600 fps. So we know that Hornady is not holding back on the 480-grain MV. Just happens to come out 2200 fps and 60,000 PSI. The longer-COL/Lesser seating depth load with the heavier bullet allows it to get same velocity at same pressure. It just requires more powder to do that. Thank the SAAMI .458 WIN throat. Rip ... | |||
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Bob, You are right about that, a little less seating depth can make a big difference, in a cylindrical, big-bore cartridge like the .458 WIN. Another good reason to use the TSX instead of the TTSX 300-grainer. Rip ... | |||
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I was wrong on an estimate of difference at 300 between the 300 TTSX and 300 TSX. At 2980 the difference in favor of the TTSX at 300 is 16 fps/41 ft-lbs. Nothing to loose sleep over!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Seating the 480-gr DGX out a bit will allow it to reduce pressure AND gain velocity over the 500-gr DGX. Or add powder and get same pressure and even more velocity. Why not go all the way to 3.340" with the 480-grainer? WHOOPEE! ALL THE WAY TO SAAMI MAXIMUM COL!  Just another nut in the candy. Rip ... | |||
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OK. I promise to sleep well on that. Rip ... | |||
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I'm wondering what the difference in drop/drift is between the 300 gr TSX and TTSX @ 500 yards. I'll get some high 30 mm rings for the Spruce King and put my 10x42SWFA mildot on . See how akrit I can get it to be. The length of the TTSX may be helpful in reducing group size Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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let us know! Shit now you got me thinking. That Sir, is no small feat!!  | |||
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I ordered a 50-count box of the 480-grain DGX from Midway USA. The 300-gr TSX is on backorder! Seems I am late to realize the benefits of the TSX over the TTSX, but all the .458 SOCOM shooters and disciples of Bob have beat me to it. As detailed at Midway USA, Barnes 300-grainers: TSX-FB: 1.091" long, 0.234 BC TTSX-BT: 1.235" long, 0.236 BC, a meager 0.002 "improvement" at almost 3 times the money. Seating depth for the TSX-FB at 3.325" COL: 0.266", crimped on a compressed load of H4198. Seating depth for the TTSX-BT at 3.395" COL: 0.340", so, necessarily crimped on a lesser amount of powder for same degree of compression.  The TSX beats the TTSX for highest velocity at lowest pressure. Any loss of velocity and increased drop at 300 yards can be made up for by increased MV with the TSX. Without the plastic tip being deformed in the magazine (bent, driven deeper, or detaching), the TSX is the better choice on all scores, IMHO. My last use of the TTSX was disenchanting. One of the plastic tips got deformed and drove deeper into the hollowpoint, merely because I pulled it from an erratic AA-1680 load by using a kinetic puller. When I seated it again, over a different charge of AA-1680, the plastic tip was driven even deeper into the hollowpoint. That bullet was the third one fired with the non-compressed 77.0-grain charge of AA-1680 (no filler), 25" barrel, 5-yard instrumental velocity, 81*F: 1. 2907 fps 2. 2865 fps 3. 2831 fps ??? Another good reason to use H4198 instead of AA-1680: Better ThermoBallisticIndependence. The TSX beats the TTSX, "hands down." Rip ... I fired it anyway, | |||
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I'm thinking the TTSX would be a good one for up the pipe. 1st round on caribou/deer. Have the TSX 300s in the mag.   300 gr X .458 bullet. Mv 2700 fps ish. Distance to target 25 feet ish. Back stop. Seasoned white spruce. Depth of penetration. Approx 15" expanded diameter 3/4"×15/16" I have had very similar results with the TSX. Haven't tried the TTSX yet. Nice varmint bullet. Ya, for any varmints in North America. More velocity may reduce the bullets diameter by breaking off more petals. But that would add to deeper penetration. I know that if I was going to hunt lions in Africa. This is the cartridge and bullet I would want to use! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Bullet next to the Barnes is a .452 225 gr Winchester hollow nose. Shot from my 45 Colt @ 900 ish fps. Its in the pic as a size comparison. Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Ah, there is the possible fly in the ointment. Could the TTSX with non-deformed plastic tip be more accurate at lower velocity attainable than the TSX with higher velocity attainable? I refuse to do anymore calculations with the 0.236-BC TTSX after this one, comparing it to the 0.234-BC TTSX: 300 yard drop difference at 2900 fps MV: 0.11" That is at my usual local atmospheric conditions. Little difference with any other conditions. Only TSX 300-grainer calculations and load trials for me now. No more TTSX. Accuracy at velocity is the question, compared to the TTSX. We know the TSX wins for lower pressure at higher velocity. Rip ... | |||
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If the bullets are tumbled in hexagonal boron nitride . And the barrel is well coated (seasoned with HBN) then the cold bore shot should be inside the rifles group. If the 300 gr TSX and TTSX group similarly @ 300 y/m . Then the TTSX can be single loaded and used for longer range shots. Or even point blank. Cause it's not going to turn to dust and barely make it thru a plastic chronograph. No siree Commander. Its gonna blow a hole thru a heavy animal big enuf to shove your arm thru. And do so with moderate recoil Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Lower velocity would equal less meat destruction. Which equals more burgers on the grill, pickled briscit ect. Its something I will research fully when I get time. Possibly this winter. Being a meat hunter. I like options from 1 rifle. Yup. That's why I'm going to try the 350 gr TTSX 416 bullet in my Rem mag. Options. But only after I have some work done opening the scope base screw holes up to at least 8x40. And get a Seyfried Schtic pic base for it. Fun fun fun !!! Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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I mentioned the group size because in the past I haven't had very good accuracy from the Spruce King with 300 gr bullets. Or really any specific bullet or load for that matter. I don't remember ever getting even slightly sub moa. And the general run was 1.5-2 moa. But on the other side of the equation. I was shooting with at most a 4x scope. Sometimes a 2.5 power and very often express sights. I just used what ever brass I could make or reuse. Go up to book max in 1 gr increments . Chronograph , zero@ 100ish and go chutin. I spent almost as much time painting primers and case bases with fingernail polish as I did anything. It was not that uncommon for the Spruce King and ammo to be submerged in saltwater for brief periods of time. More stuff to learn . Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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Bob; somehow I must have fat thumbed the ignore button on your posts so I've been missing your posts . Sorry. I thot it must be Scot gueen or some other goonhead come to pollute this greatest thread. Problem rectified ! Since economy of powder is a good thing. And I've always liked the idea of the 480 gr bullets in the 458. I'm going to try them. Any idea wether the DGX is bonded core ? 2200 fps is plenty for me in the 458/480-510 gr bullet. From a 9 lb rifle. That's all the lively recoil I want to (endure/enjoy). Phil Shoemaker : "I went to a .30-06 on a fine old Mauser action. That worked successfully for a few years until a wounded, vindictive brown bear taught me that precise bullet placement is not always possible in thick alders, at spitting distances and when time is measured in split seconds. Lucky to come out of that lesson alive, I decided to look for a more suitable rifle." | |||
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CTF, If you like powder economy you will like the economy of getting 3 TSX bullets for darn near the price of one TTSX. Yes, the DGX bullets are bonded now. Late improvement by Hornady, and it is about time! Rip ... | |||
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