Good Ol' Hornady, bless their hearts, the bonding of the DGX has finally given them a good soft to go with the good solids they make.

Over 63 years old and still killing buffalo,
both the .458 WIN and Phil Shoemaker.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Wow! That is a lightweight .300 WIN!
That will surely be good for getting you ready for the .458 WIN.

Here is Phil Shoemaker's "Jungle Carbine," Old Ugly:

Phil carried the rifle with no sling while hunting.
When he took over cameraman chores he had to sling his rifle while toting the camera to film daughter's and son's hunts.
Phil had to make a sling from canvas scrap and duct tape.
Did not get to show off the flush-fit sling bases on Old Ugly.
Is that like ungilding a lily or what?

Rip ...

Old Ugly...well, what I can say that hasn't been said before...she is a class act!!

RIP and the others:

It would seem very appropriate on this day to fill in some blanks re: the 300gr TSX.

I just returned from the range 1 hr and 20 min ago after shooting some new loads in my Ruger #1, .458.

Some may recall that last time 83 grns A1680 produced 2856 fps. (corrected to muzzle)

So this time I went 84 grains, 84.5 and 85.

Conditions were: Sunny, 15*C/60*F (average). Chrony at 15' per usual.

Brass: Remington
Primer: WLRM
Powder: A1680
Bullet: 300gr Barnes TSX
COL = 3.327" (crimped into bottom cannelure)

84 grains = 2866 fps/5471 ft-lbs average (only 10 fps more than 83 grains).
84.5 grains = 2905 fps/5621 ft-lbs average.
85 grains = 2926 fps/5703 ft-lbs average.

Comments:

1> The middle load of 84.5 was best overall in consistent MV and case head expansion.
2> None was a maximum charge with case head expansion as the indicator.
3> Accuracy of any load was not tested as the rifle was sighted for the 350gr Hor last fall, and that had not been changed. The 84 grain load was shooting over the target so I lowered the poi to near the bottom of the target. At the end I adjusted the scope so that any future shooting of the 300s would at least be on target. Accuracy tests will come for the 84.5 grain load.
4> I expect to do an 85.5 grain and 86 grain load next time for an evaluation of both pressure and consistency. I have found from experience that some combinations of components work best when at peak PSI, or nearly so.
5> None of the loads tested were compressed.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Obi-Wan Bob,

Wow!
The Force-458 is strong with you!
Hope I can do something like that.
Of course, yours is most spectacular since you did it first.

Rip ...

{Old Ugly big image moved to page 226 of THE MISSION}

Rip ...

Excellent pics, RIP, of Phil with his Cape buff; and the ammo. Thanks for posting.

Hornady does make excellent DGXs and DGSs. I like the 480 DGX that shoots great from my rifle at 2350 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,

When I get through a thousand of the 450-grain and 500-grain Barnes TSX bullets,
and a thousand of the 450-grain North Fork softs and solids,
then I will be running low on bullets.
I will be needing to stock up on those Hornady 480-grain DGX and DGS.
Until then, I have filed your load data.

Tip from Phil Shoemaker:
Fluorescent tape on the .458 WIN rifle for night comfort.
Like white paint or tape along the rib or barrel(s) used by the jungle jaguar hunters,
or the Kodiak deer hunter taking his rifle inside the tent for sleep on a moonless night,
or for night watch shift after the bear has pressed his nose on the tent and been shooed away by a blast of the .458 WIN.
The .458 WIN: Perfect Kodiak deer rifle.

The Hornady factory ammo that Phil used: 500-grain DGX tested at 2140 fps in their 24" barrel.

We know that can be easily duplicated with many powders, easily surpassed with a few,
and add 200 fps to that if LongCOL loading is allowed.

Rip ...

RIP,

CTF made a comment regarding my first published load of the 300 TSX at 2856 on this thread. He felt that would make a four-inch hole through a bear. Black or brown, he didn't say, but maybe he could chime in here to let us know what he had in mind.

I loaded that bullet in my Ruger .45-70 LT at 2650 fps for a black bear hunt over bait on private land. Bait site was at 127 yards from my tree stand. A young bear was coming out of the bush to the site but I never pulled the trigger. Later I tested that bullet and load in tough media at about ten feet. A perfectly expanded four petals curled outward and downward back into the shank resulted with 100% weight retention. I have a photo of it.

After CFT made that comment, I went out and bought two more boxes of 20 each with the idea of trying another hunt this fall (commencing Sept 1st) using the .458 at around 2850 to 2900 fps. Don't want a big bear as we have to eat 'em, but I know a couple of families who will take all the meat I could give them.

Also, I want to get an accurate load (if possible) at those speeds. The .45-70 load was sub MOA. I used H4198 for that load, crimped in the bottom groove. I could've crammed in another grain for over 2700 (had done it), but it wasn't as accurate, or needed.

For moose I'd use the 350 TSX, and did load the CZ for that hunt with that bullet at around 2750, as I've detailed previously, but didn't get a chance on one.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Pretty impressive loads, 458.
they're up on the heels of a handloaded 416Rigby (~416Wethaerby).

I guess it is duplicating something that we can see down at 30 calibre where the little 308Winnie can duplicate 30-06 loads with tinkering and light bullets.

Impressive, to say the least. I could hunt with those.

Either. I don't know why people shy away from the 300 gr 458 X , TSX or TTSX.
Granted I've never shot the TTSX yet in my 458. But I doubt it would misbehave. I know most don't have the opportunity to experiment like I had.
Most have to book a hunt and pay lots of big bucks.
I wouldn't on purpose choose the 350 gr tsx over the 300 TTSX for AK/Yk trophy bull moose.
I remember 1 black bear I killed on Kupreanof. When we hung it up . My friend was looking at the hole thru the bear from 1 side and I was looking at him from the other side thru the hole . And talking to him. I've never been able to recover one that I shot an animal with . Front chest shots on brown bear don't exit from what I could tell. But I couldn't find the bullets. Anyone that has ever pawed around in a brown bears gut that got destroyed by a big fast bullet will understand , its enough to make a guy loose his lunch.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Either. I don't know why people shy away from the 300 gr 458 X , TSX or TTSX.
Granted I've never shot the TTSX yet in my 458. But I doubt it would misbehave. I know most don't have the opportunity to experiment like I had.
Most have to book a hunt and pay lots of big bucks.
I wouldn't on purpose choose the 350 gr tsx over the 300 TTSX for AK/Yk trophy bull moose.
I remember 1 black bear I killed on Kupreanof. When we hung it up . My friend was looking at the hole thru the bear from 1 side and I was looking at him from the other side thru the hole . And talking to him. I've never been able to recover one that I shot an animal with . Front chest shots on brown bear don't exit from what I could tell. But I couldn't find the bullets. Anyone that has ever pawed around in a brown bears gut that got destroyed by a big fast bullet will understand , its enough to make a guy loose his lunch.

Thanks CFT, that's the kind of info I was hoping for.

As mentioned, the one tested (300 TSX) in tough media penetrated very well and held on to 100% original weight. In fact, at an impact of over 2600 fps it did better than a 286 NP fired from my 9.3 x 62 from the same distance into the same media. The Nosler was leaving the muzzle at 2620, or thereabouts. It too penetrated well but was quite mangled and weighed 209 grns (73%). That seems about average for Partitions from the larger bores. But the 300 TSX/.458 also made a larger permanent cavity in the media.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Good stuff, guys. Not mundane at all.
The Force is strong with the .458/300-grainer.
I have been tied up with family visiting from out of town, etc. I'll be shooting some 300-grainers soon.

Germane to THE MISSION:
The GUN and its DEVELOPMENT, Ninth Edition of 1910, by William Wellington Greener (1834-1921)
Pop W. Greener died in 1869, a muzzle-loader supporter to the end, he was said to have used a cast-iron plug in the bottom of an 11-bore rifle ball,
to bump it up, years before the Minie' Bullet.

W.W. says his Pop also was building the "Cape Rifle" for the South African market, sighted for up to 2000 yards, "Calibre either .40 or .52,"
before Mr. Whitworth had perfected his .45-calibre muzzle-loading wonder.
W. Greener's system used a 2-groove rifling of 1:30" twist with a fitted bullet, a longish, pointy conical.

W. W. Greener himself pioneered shotgun chokes, the Greener third fastener, modern metallurgy and machining, etc.

The first "Express" rifle was a muzzleloader by James Purdey The Younger in 1856.
Named for the speedy "Express Train" just having appeared in England about then.
Calibers were being reduced and velocities increased for longer point-blank range and lower trajectories.
Just like with the so-called Kentucky Rifle.

Fitted-to-barrel bullets like the 2-groove Brunswick belted ball (1835 in England and similar in 1725 in Spain) and W. Greener's 2-groove finned, pointy, conical (1855) and General John Jacob's 4-groove finned, pointy conical, explosive-on-impact bullet (1856) were flashes in the pan,
impractical as even Whitworth's hexagonal bullet and bore proved to be, post 1856.

The prize was finding a longish .45-caliber bullet in a 1:20" twist for the muzzleloaders, thank you Mr. Whitworth.
Just make it a round peg in a round hole, and the .458 WIN is on the way, only about a century for the incubation, 1856-1956.

The "Black Powder Express" cartridge rifles showed up in the late 1860's
The "Nitro-for-Black-Powder Express" cartridges, as we call them now, came in the late 1880's.
The "high-power," full-nitro, Cordite-loaded, heavy-bulleted cartridge did not arrive until 1897, with W. J. Jeffery's single-shot .400 S. Jeffery,
and John Rigby's .450 S. Rigby double rifle. "S." is for either/or/both Smokeless & Special, both arriving near simultaneously.

The W. W. Greener book gives a glimpse into the nomenclature of the day, not one mention of a "Nitro Express" as of 1910 by W. W. Greener.
He called the smokeless, breech-loading, metallic-cartridge rifles of the day that were suitable for sport hunting:
"Cordite Express"
"High-power Cordite Rifles"
and
"High-power Nitro Cartridges."
The class moniker "Nitro Express" must have been a natural progression of the time,
surely by 1910, I would have thought earlier.

W. W. Greener may have been a bit set in his verbal ways and tooted his own horn a bit, having many accomplishments to toot about,
but he got most of his pronouncements correct,
including this one:

"The .450 Cordite Express is the largest bore rifle recommended. Anything larger is unnecessary, as the energy developed by this powerful cartridge is so enormous that there is difficulty in utilising all of it to advantage in the killing of the animal. It is suitable for elephant, rhino, gaur, grizzly bear, &c., with solid bullets, and soft-skinned dangerous game, such as lion, tiger, &c., with hollow-pointed bullets; weight about 11-1/2 lbs. Recoil considerable, but not too severe."

He was obviously talking about the .450 Nitro Express, or .450 Special Rigby of the time (first one working for John Rigby by 1897),
due to the weight of the rifle.
A table in the book listed the "particulars" of ammo available from Eley Bros. and Kynoch, Ltd.
".450"
Length of Case: 3-1/4"
Charge of Cordite: 70 grains
Weight of Bullet: 480 grains
Muzzle Velocity: 2150 fps
Trajectory at 100 yards over 200 yards: 5.1"
Striking Energy at 100 yards: 4,024 ft. lbs.
Approximate Weight for Hammerless Double Rifle: 11-1/2 lbs.

EXPERIMENTS WITH EXPLOSIVE SHELLS, by W. W. Greener:
A .450 Express bullet weighing 300 grains simply had its hollowpoint filled with explosive compound and a bit of wax closed the nose.
It was fired at 15 yards and 40 yards into the head of a bullock, with the same results:
Small hole in forehead, brain completely destroyed, fractured skull bones ... "The shell exploded more at the back of the head, completely shattering it."

THE EXPLOSIVE COMPOUND FOR SHELLS, according to W. W. Greener:
"This should be mixed as follows: -- Take sulphuret of antimony and chlorate of potash, pounded separately, and mix carefully equal parts by weight with a bone knife, on a plate or other smooth surface."

Don't let your kids do that for their first handloading lesson.
For advanced handloaders only.
That could really perk up a .458/300-grain varmint load.
Might help limit penetration of the 300-grain TSX on game when that is desired.
Head shots recommended if used on meat animals.

Rip ...

Well done, RIP, not only very interesting but it makes me feel slightly less self-conscious about my expatiation (if not the expiation) on the merits of illuminated sights, nearby

Paul,
Thanks for that.

Fun at the range Saturday.
I started at 69.0 grains of AA-1680 in the .458 WIN and .45-100 SWT with the 300-gr Sierra "Pro-Hunter" FNHP.
I used no filler.
There were 2 hangfires (click ... BOOM) in the .45-100 SWT, one at 69.0 grains, one at 70.0 grains, none at 71.0 grains, but cases were smoked/sooty and some unburnt powder was left in barrel, erratic velocities.

No hangfires in the .458 WIN, but it did not start burning fully, clean, and with more uniform velocities until 73.0 grains was reached.

I had to stop at 75.0 grains due to disintegrating bullets with the .458 WIN.



Rifle: Bobbarrella CZ 550 Magnum with 25" Shilen barrel.

I shall resume with Barnes 300-grain TTSX and 76.0 grains of AA-1680.
Maybe use the WLRM primer like Obi-Wan Bob uses instead of the F-215?

Rip ...

Another photo of legendary Phil Shoemaker's Old Ugly the Mauser M98 .458 WIN, back home in Alaska, socializing with legendary Hal Waugh's Big Nan the Pre-'64 M70 .375 WBY.
No better combo on this planet:



Rip ...

Old Ugly has great companions. Born to fight.

Wow, That's an amazing pic !

I was expecting bullet blowup to happen with the 300 gr Seirra hollow nose bullet. At high velocity. Iirc I used to shoot those @ around 2400 fps. They were great for offhand plinking. But I had a couple 458 S that didn't feed them very well.
When I discovered how fragile the 350 gr Hornady Rnsn was it became my plinking bullet. For a while it was a challenge finding lighter than 500 gr bullets that were tough enough for bear. At least locally in Southeast Alaska.
Its easy to understand why the 458 got a reputation for being a hard kicker and stock destroyer back then .
I know on AR lots of guys like to get the scrap kicked out of themselves with monster rifles.
The 458 provided all the recoil most could handle.
Fortunately Randy Brooks came up with the X bullets . Today many may not understand how Huge a thing the X bullets really were/are.
No preference over other monometal/bonded/A frame lighter weight bullets. Its just that I was shooting light weight 458 X bullets before I ever heard of GSC ect. And before the 400 gr TBBC was available.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Old Ugly has great companions. Born to fight.

JAWOHL!
She looks better without the improvised sling used when Phil was toting the camera and dangling Old Ugly in Africa as photographer for his daughter.
Posing with Big Nan she is stripped for the fight, her natural state, as when Phil is Professional Hunting in Alaska.

Rip ...

Sometimes there were no half decent 458 bullets available but usually there was factory ammo available in 500 or 510 gr. That's how I learned how good a deer bullet they were. And how well they worked on big punks in brown fur coats.

Funny how experiments with exploding in midair bullets brings up so many memories.

For those that remember the 400 gr 49k jacketed Barnes Originals. They were good bullets. But weren't readily available in most places.
How Andy Runyon had such good success with the 32k jacketed 423 and 416 bullets is beyond me. I had 400 gr 32 k 458 Originals blow up on deer when fired @ 2400 fps.

CTF,
Spot-On with your comments on monometals for the .458 WIN.

I was amazed when I saw that target.
My first thought was "Did a burning ball of AA-1680 flame-out on the paper?"
No.
Incredible as it seems, that is lead dust that remained on the paper after the rest of the jacketed bullet debris tore through at 25 yards.
I put clear plastic package tape over it and under it to preserve for posterity.
No black paper or black tape under that "pattern" to confuse the appearance.
2800 fps is too fast for that 300-grain FNHP Sierra bullet: 75.0 grains of AA-1680 in the .458 WIN.

I fired another shot with 76.0 grains.
It came apart in the muzzlebrake of Bobbarrella, leaving a copper jacket coating inside, near the end of the KDF brake.

The lead powder struck the chronograph squarely on the readout/control screen of the ProChrono at 5 yards.

Knocked the tripod over. Did not fully penetrate the chronograph.
Jacket base recovered from the grass at front of chronograph.

I left my Caldwell Chronograph at the public range, time before, in a hurry to get Mom to her cardiac rehab. It vanished.
I am down to my Oehler 35P and a Shooting Chrony.
Lab Radar would be nice.

Rip ...

I was disappointed with how erratic the 69.0 and 70.0 grain charges of AA-1680 are in the .458 WIN and .45-100 SWT with a bullet as light as 300 grains.
Hence the move to 25 yards was a stroke of luck for capturing lead dust on paper.

71.0 grains is barely serviceable and 73.0 grains is required for uniformity.
I suspect 73.0 grains should be the starting load,
but to go any higher than that, you need a tougher bullet than the Sierra 300 grainer.

AA-1680:
71.0 grains was ~89% volumetric fill.
73.0 grains was ~91% volumetric fill.
That is roughly correct for both the
Sierra FNHP 300-grainer at 2.945" COL
and the
Barnes TTSX 300-grainer at 3.395" COL.

I did fire both bullets with 71.0 grains AA-1680.
MV difference showed 35 fps faster for the Sierra, average for 3 shots.
Both quite erratic.
Onward and upward with the monometal copper and brass 300-grainers.
No more jacket fragments and lead dust nor case filling of less than 91%.

Rip ...

CTF,
You are to be commended for making 3 posts in rapid succession, for THE MISSION.
Now, watch me add 2 more to further illustrate the exploding Sierra 300-grain Pro-Hunter at ~2800 fps.

Rip ...

Wow, that really mess that chronograph up !!

I had vastly superior penetration from a 180 gr fmj40 cal bullet @ about 940 fps. From a striker fired pistol.

Looks like Bobberralla's muzzle brake needs a good scrubbing. Maybe even some more mechanical means of removing that jacket material.

I was looking at some of my 458 reloads this morning. I think I'm going to pull all loads apart and start fresh. I can't remember what some of the bullets are. I thot they were 400 gr KBC loaded with 79 gr of 2230 but now I'm not so sure.

I got a rude awakening when I got my current 416 Rem Mag this spring. Built on a 375 Whitworth Express. A rebore and refinish. Which is fine by me as I always wanted pretty much exactly what this rifle is.
But anyway. My last 416 Rem . a custom I had built on a CZ550 w/ McGowan 1 in 10 twist SS barrel liked hot loads. Full book from the Barnes #2 manual. 300 gr X pushed by 86 gr of H4895.
All the current data I can find shows 81 gr as being Max. I haven't fired a single one in my new rifle and won't.
That will be around 160 rounds I will have pulled down for this new rifle.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to use 1680 in a 458. So I will watch and learn. !

For what I was using my 458 for primarily. The extra dead to double extra dead was my mission. At pbr on an inbound bear. Double triple extra dead was my goal.
I did make up a load with the 300 TSX@ 2500 . For when my wife was my bear watch. I figured it would work at a minimum as good as a 375 H&H. And at best like a 458 Win mag. Since most of the time her and the dogs would be sitting up on a big tall stump. With her Umbrella and the Spruce King. And I would be down in the brush. I think it was a good call.

Not in any way casting aspersions on your load 4sixteen. In anyway, at all. I was a timber beast just trying to keep me and mine safe.
Who knows, that may have been an accurate load. I loaded them , Chronographed them. Made sure they were roughly zeroed @ Iirc 50 paces and had her pack the rifle. She shot it also And could hit a gallon jug at 50 with it. Good enuf at the time.

Maybe those 300 gr Pro Hunter hollow nose would swage down to .452 and make a light duty 45 Colt , Ruger, bullet ??

Dang Rip. Making your own Gas Checks from 300 Grain Sierra's and a chrony to catch them, seems kind of radical. Now we know though, it can be done.
All for THE MISSION!

The problem with such a fine-grain ball powder as AA1680 is that anything less than 100% load density, after the bullet is seated, will permit the powder to "move around" too much in the case at odd angles when the rifle is fired in anything but a vertical or flat horizontal mode. Thus, erratic MVs, more or sometimes less, depending, of course, on actual load density.

With the 300 TSX seated to the bottom cannelure (farthest from the tip), and a COL of 3.327", even 83 grains of 1680 doesn't fill the case. As said; 84.5 gave best results overall, considering case head expansion and MV. But even then from 2 shots, the ES was 19 fps; and that was the best of those fired. Yet, I will try that load for accuracy @ 100 yds. I much prefer, and expect, not more than 10 fps ES from .45-70s and .458s.

However, there were NO signs of excess psi from any loads tried so far from 83, 84, 84.5 and 85 grains behind the 300 TSX in Rem brass, ignited by WLRM primers. The barrel of the Ruger #1 is 24" as all know, I think.

If I wanted to drive that bullet (300 TSX) slower than my first try (2856 fps), I'd NOT reduce the load of 1680; I'd go to a slower powder with more bulk to it.

But I'm wondering if W680 would give similar results as 1680? They are listed as having the same, or similar burn rate. 680 is also a ball powder, perhaps flattened like other Winchester ball powders. Anyone with experience using 680 in a large bore?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Has anyone tried the 300gr Nosler RN in the .458?

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I had vastly superior penetration from a 180 gr fmj40 cal bullet @ about 940 fps. From a striker fired pistol.

Did that pistol load exit a ProChrono?
Funny how most of the .458 WIN load that exploded in the muzzlebrake went about a foot low at 5 yards, and only penetrated a few inches of plastic and electronics.
Base of the bullet jacket was lying on the grass in front of the toppled-over tripod.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Looks like Bobberralla's muzzle brake needs a good scrubbing. Maybe even some more mechanical means of removing that jacket material.

Aye.
I carefully polished it out with a tiny Dremel Tool polishing spud, staying away from the crown of the brake.
Then soaked the brake in Wipe-Out foam.
Did 5 applications of Wipe-Out to the barrel to remove the copper fouling.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I'm not knowledgeable enough to use 1680 in a 458. So I will watch and learn. !

My similar knowledge base did not stop me from trying the AA-1680 in a .458 WIN.
I am still learning too.
Trying it with cheap bullets for this lesson was false economy, unfortunately.
Will resume with the Barnes TTSX or TSX 300-grainer for the next lesson with AA-1680
here at The School of Hard Knocks.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Hunting load for my .458 Lott is 300gr TSX or 300gr Sierra HP at 2500 fps using IMR 4895. Both shoot to about the same POI at 100 yards.

Kills 'em plain dead. Higher speeds required to kill 'em extra or double extra dead.

With a BC of 0.120 for the Sierra 300-grPro-Hunter, it will slow down quickly to well below 2500 fps at impact,
if no faster than 2500 fps MV with that bullet, an excellent idea, for deer and such.

Rip ...