Im done fighting about it. I honestly wish the best for the site and hope Saeed and DRG can pull a Rabbit out of a hat and turn it around. I gave them some curry on the PF and got the old, "start your own site if you dont like it" stuff. The whole point we are posting about it is we are rather attached to this one and would like to see it prosper. I dont really post much these days anyway, most of my posting was done in the sites early days. I joined this site when I was 24, thats the old software which predates this board. Ive been here on and off into middle age now,it was good to log in from time to time and see what was new. As a parting request does anyone have RIP's email address? Feel free to PM for mine if anyone is interested in passing it onto Ron. He knows me, just say Karl the 585 guy, Mitch Carters old understudy I'd like to say goodbye and good wishes to him.

i never posted anything, but read with interest every week.This site will miss the sparkle,and no I did not always agree with RIP.Onward and upward. Please keep me in the fun

My account has been reactivated after I was suspended for disagreeing, nonprofanely, with somebody's politics at the crater.
That is the first time it has happened to me in 21 years here.

Strictly business:

The augmented loads for the SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum are now called, by me, the ".458 Winchester Magnum Plus" loads,
whether for longer than 3.340" COL or greater than 60,000 psi,
but less than the 62,500 psi of the SAAMI .458 Lott MAP.

This is a basic framework for use of H4895 in the .458 WM and .458 WMP.
H4895 is the "all-purpose powder" for 400-gr to 600-gr bullets of any type.
Some very accurate loads may be found, and even some highest velocity loads with this powder, compressed or not.
But overall, H4895 will work as well in the .458 WM and .458 WMP as the .30-06 does for big game, overall.
The "ladders" that follow may serve as a guide for using whatever bullets of same weights that you prefer.

Hannay may want to look at this regarding whatever 400-grainer he prefers.



My last box of the first generation of 500-gr Hornady RNSN bullets was depleted for this:



Still no scope adjustment, the 500-grainer at 2301 fps MV is shooting high:



600-grain Barnes Original, I still have 60 of these left after firing 30 for this test:



Here is how the above three bullet weights compare with H4895 overlapping ladders from 61.0 grains to 80.0 grains.
All are without filler.
No drop tube was used except for the 78.0, 79.0, and 80.0-gr charges with the 500-grainer:



Here is how the 400-gr Speer FNSN "reduced loads" in the .458 WM compare to the 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN "Plus Loads" in the .458 WMP,
both with H4895:



Any further trials with lighter bullets (250-gr to 350-gr) will need faster powders than H4895 most likely.
H4198 will be hard to beat, but a trial of Alliant Power Pro 1200R might be worthwhile, it is a pretty fast ball powder and supposed to have good thermal stability.

I have loaded some 500-grainers with Hodgdon CFE 223 and Alliant Power Pro Varmint for my next outing.
Watch Bob's blog for further results.

BTW, I used the Hornady 500-gr DGS factory load as a control for my Caldwell G2 chronograph,
before firing 60 rounds at 48 degrees F on 1-13-2021,
and after firing 60 rounds at 52 degrees F on 1-14-2021.

I also fired 3 rounds of the factory 500-gr DGS .458 WM in Big Ugly (the .458 Lott Wildcat Like Jack Built) on that first day:



Daisy the Ruger No. 1 did even better with the 500-gr DGS factory loads on the second day, after having her barrel fouled by 60 rounds of 500-gr Hornady RNSP:

3 shots at 52*F in 24" Ruger No. 1 factory barrel:
2122 fps, 2136 fps, 2134 fps
average = 2131 fps
corrected to MV = 2145 fps
That beats the Hornady claim of 2140 fps by 5 fps.
Hornady factory ammo is doing good, according to this anecdote.



AMFYOYO: You know who you are.

Welcome back, welcome back, welcome baaack....


Good to see you RIP..

Welcome back indeed! And thanks for this post. I'm reading it carefully.

Sanity prevailed.

I knew it was RIP when my iPhone was choking on the target pictures.

The Lottie’s ( yes I have a Lott) thought they had won. Now, all they will Rest In Pieces.

Welcome back Rip
I have learned more on 458 big bore than the past 30 years shooting different 458
Rip one question
shooting so many rounds of 458 do you shoot from the bench or standing with stick
is shooting off the bench could you take a bit of time to tell everyone how you hold your rifle or do you have a iron shoulder

from Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:
Welcome back Rip
I have learned more on 458 big bore than the past 30 years shooting different 458
Rip one question
shooting so many rounds of 458 do you shoot from the bench or standing with stick
is shooting off the bench could you take a bit of time to tell everyone how you hold your rifle or do you have a iron shoulder

from Canuck

Body fat or water body mass.

Rip
Good to see you back. I have some 500 hornady I think if you need more.
Nobody has done more to earn gratitude than you.

Welcome back Dr Daggaron! Now we just have Mike Mcgure Missing, still under Walthers suspension with reason being 'Im tired of your false shit'. I tell you what with clear site policy and managers like this, who needs political rioters.

So, we can get back to The Mission.
Great to see you back Ron !
As usual, Great work ! How big a muzzle brake do you have on Daisy ?

I'm thinking I want to restock The Spruce King.
Am debating on wether to go with a Boyd's laminate or modern Ruger Hawkeye synthetic. It would be quite nifty to find a Ruger Synthetic with molded in camo.
A friend has his reloading press all set up. But his sports car (auto cross) is sleeping in the garage , in the way of getting to the reloading station.
Need to build a reloading/shooting house at my place.

Looking forward to more of The Mission! Won't have anything to add until the new Accurate mold 46-394N arrives.

Welcome back, RIP! Thanks for the ongoing data.

I love the new data, and I'm glad you're back!!!!!

Long Live the .458!

quote:

Originally posted by Karl:
Welcome back Dr Daggaron! Now we just have Mike Mcgure Missing, still under Walthers suspension with reason being 'Im tired of your false shit'. I tell you what with clear site policy and managers like this, who needs political rioters.

Karl,

G'dye might. That is my best Australian accent for "Good day mate."
I will PM my email to you if I can still do that.
The cancel culture is in full bloom and I am flying an empty flag pole.
Buy a donkey (actual Afrikaans typed by a Kentuckian and meaning "thank you very much").

quote:

Originally posted by canuck4570:
Welcome back Rip
I have learned more on 458 big bore than the past 30 years shooting different 458
Rip one question
shooting so many rounds of 458 do you shoot from the bench or standing with stick
is shooting off the bench could you take a bit of time to tell everyone how you hold your rifle or do you have a iron shoulder

from Canuck

canuck4570,
I shoot at a public range where the 50-yard target berm is the only place I can chronograph due to irregularity and slope of terrain at longer-range positions.
I would need a considerably higher tripod to shoot on the down-slope in front of the other positions,
or use a portable bench at the 600-yard prone position that has no concrete shooting table.
I prefer a solid concrete bench top and elbow pads.
The 9.0# Ruger No. 1 .458 WM is over 10 pounds with scope and rings:



Three-plane cushioning on a solid rest with a tight forearm grip really helps.
Trigger hand is a tight grip too, except for loose trigger-finger on a decent trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
Good to see you back. I have some 500 hornady I think if you need more.
Nobody has done more to earn gratitude than you.

Fury01, you are too kind.
I have plenty of the later generations of Hornady RNSP 500-grainers, so have fun plinking with yours.
Buy a donkey for support of THE MISSION, which is not dead yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Hannay:
Welcome back indeed! And thanks for this post. I'm reading it carefully.

Hannay,
I shot those 30 Speer 400-grainers first, as inspired by your H4895 handloads, great idea.
That is one powder that can do anything needing doing with any bullet from 400-grains to 600 grains.
Your mileage may very, but I am sure you will have no trouble finding a good load,
if you can find the bullets nowadays !

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
So, we can get back to The Mission.
Great to see you back Ron !
As usual, Great work ! How big a muzzle brake do you have on Daisy ?

How dare you accuse me of a muzzle brake on Daisy the Ruger No. 1 !

I'm thinking I want to restock The Spruce King.
Am debating on wether to go with a Boyd's laminate or modern Ruger Hawkeye synthetic. It would be quite nifty to find a Ruger Synthetic with molded in camo.

Let us know what you find. IIRC B&C has started making their Medalist-style stock for the Ruger MkII and Hawkeye. That would be a best buy.
B&C quit making the Ruger No. 1 stocks.

A friend has his reloading press all set up. But his sports car (auto cross) is sleeping in the garage , in the way of getting to the reloading station.
Need to build a reloading/shooting house at my place.

Be sure to get a green Cabela's roof over it for nostalgia sake.

Do you see a muzzle brake on this ? I just don't see it.



The only screws that loosened slightly were the low-torque ring-top screws.
I recommend checking for finger-tip tightness with screwdriver regularly, probably before 120 rounds fired.

Clean rifle bore every 100 rounds or annually,
whichever comes first.



Shoot twice weekly if just carrying a lot in Alaska, to keep it always ready.

quote:

Originally posted by admiral:
Looking forward to more of The Mission! Won't have anything to add until the new Accurate mold 46-394N arrives.

Great !
I am not finished with cast bullet shooting either.
Making your own bullets is a handy thing for sure, nowadays !

boomstick,
LHeym500,
bcelliott,
BaxterB,
Buglemintoday
and everybody else except Ready Aim Shootaway, aka the "Shooting Ballerina" (who seems overly concerned with his own body fat and water content):
Buy a donkey for THE MISSION.
I close with inspirational words from Bob's Blog:

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/

"Where I separate myself from Saeed and his class of .375 power, which is basically a RUM, would be in the use of a larger bore, namely the .458 Winchester Magnum. It will shoot a 300gr TSX at nearly 3000 fps, which is on a par with the .378 Weatherby, and overshadows the .375 RUM. Beyond all that, there are 350s, 400s, 450s, 500s and 550 gr projectiles readily available for a .458 magnum, including the Winchester that can easily attain and even surpass the .458 Lott, if so wanted for any situation."

"... 2303 ... This was the registered speed at 15′ from the CHRONY shooting a 500gr Hornady RN Interloc from my 24″ Ruger No.1 in .458 Winchester Magnum. The powder was 81 grs H4895, 3.56″ COL, WLRM primers, and velocity corrected to MV was 2317 fps/5960 ft-lbs."

Bob was using a longer COL (3.56") and one grain more powder than my top load with the 500-gr Hornady RNSN: 3.500", 80.0 gr H4895, 2301 fps.
Even if you allow for the Magna-Porting on his barrel (might add 9 fps for non-ported velocity)
that is very consistent between our two Ruger No.1 rifles with factory 24" barrels.

quote:

Karl,

G'dye might. That is my best Australian accent for "Good day mate."
I will PM my email to you if I can still do that.
The cancel culture is in full bloom and I am flying an empty flag pole.
Buy a donkey (actual Afrikaans typed by a Kentuckian and meaning "thank you very much").

Thanks RIP, look forward to hearing from you. And btw the accent was quite passable

Rip
tank you for tips on shooting my 458 from the bench
I was doing like you shooting with my rest at high position and the rear my sand bag on a wood block
I am certain that the cushion foam will greatly help
will get one
thank you
Canuck 4570

dang RIP, wish I'd thought about that pad as I have 4 or 5 of those out in the barn and will go cut up a few of them but will not be doing any shooting for a couple more months as the temp here is a little chilly at 15-20 degrees sitting at the shooting bench, by the way have you shot any of those AR500 steel targets with 350 or 450 TSX bullets wonder if they would break? have fun and welcome back from chilly So Dakota. Jim

quote:

"... 2303 ... This was the registered speed at 15′ from the CHRONY shooting a 500gr Hornady RN Interloc from my 24″ Ruger No.1 in .458 Winchester Magnum. The powder was 81 grs H4895, 3.56″ COL, WLRM primers, and velocity corrected to MV was 2317 fps/5960 ft-lbs."

Bob was using a longer COL (3.56") and one grain more powder than my top load with the 500-gr Hornady RNSN: 3.500", 80.0 gr H4895, 2301 fps.
Even if you allow for the Magna-Porting on his barrel (might add 9 fps for non-ported velocity)
that is very consistent between our two Ruger No.1 rifles with factory 24" barrels.

I was going to mention that RIP, I picked up on it right away.

GREAT having you back! I'm feeling better already!

BTW, I've already written my next blog for this Saturday. It includes the material you sent, and was done before you returned here. Doesn't hurt to have the word out there from two sources, can make more converts that way!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Rip
On the politics manual; go look up what was told to the people when they requested a king like all the other nations had. Search tip. Saul was the first earthly king of Israel and Sammuel was the Judge who was asked to appoint him.
In connection to this thread; Israel had a 458wmp and wanted a Lott of what others had.

Bob,
Glad you are feeling better.
Good to know THE MISSION will carry on at "Bob's Blog"

www.bigbores.ca

My reason for using the 0.350" seating depth with the Gen-1 Hornady 500-gr RNSN (1.350" BOL/ 3.500" COL)
was because that was the same seating depth as convenient for the 500-gr TBSH Solid (1.400" BOL/ 3.550" COL) load that Jerry developed,
and same seating depth as convenient for the Speer 400-gr FNSN (0.975" BOL/ 3.125" COL).
Same seating depth with the 600-gr Barnes Original RNSP: 1.550" BOL/ 3.700" COL.
Same LR%/net filling for all those bullets since seating depth is same.
This isolates the effect of increasing bullet weight on resulting MV for given charge of powder with 400-gr to 600-gr bullets.

The 450-gr TSX with BOL of 1.520" if seated 0.350" deep gives COL of 3.670".
This is taking unfair advantage of the SAAMI .458 Lott, loading the .458 WM+ longer than 3.600", which I previously did with AA-2230.
That barely beat Jerry's MV with AA-2460 and same bullet at shorter COL of 3.565" and seating depth of 0.455".
CALIBER LENGTH SEATING DEPTH !

It is most cool to beat the SAAMI .458 Lott with the .458 WM+ at shorter than 3.600" COL.

3.565" to 3.595" COL with the 450-gr TSX is cool.
Jerry has shown the way with AA-2460 and maybe some minimal compression.
I could try the AA-2230 at sub-3.6" COL and/or the newer ball powders.
The bulky H4895 will require about as much compression as it does in the SAAMI.458 Lott at maximum COL.

But I have a secret weapon in the Norma-made brass for the .458 WM.
It adds about 5 grains of H20 capacity compared to W-W and Hornady brass.
Wow by golly !
I might be able to equal you and Jerry's 450-gr TSX loads with H4895 only mildly compressed.

H4895 at 84 grains compressed bulges a case below the bullet with a 0.350" seating depth in W-W or Hornady brass.
Use the Norma .458 WM brass and it would be mildly compressed with even deeper seating depth.
H4895 is at its best compressed.

I have a feeling it will do well with the 450-gr TSX at less than 3.6" COL.
We already know that the less bulky H335 and AA-2460 ball powders make cool loads.
Must try for cool with H4895.
I feel another 60 rounds coming on.
450-gr TSX and H4895 at sub 3.600", with whatever charges won't bulge the cases, W-W, Hornady, Norma.
Then Bubba will make some 400-gr T6 bullets,
those are only 1.400" BOL and will be easily cool.
600-gr cast bullet loads (+/- hollow-pointing) can use the 600-gr Barnes Original data with H4895.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
On the politics manual; go look up what was told to the people when they requested a king like all the other nations had. Search tip. Saul was the first earthly king of Israel and Sammuel was the Judge who was asked to appoint him.
In connection to this thread; Israel had a 458wmp and wanted a Lott of what others had.

The Lord saw that things were breaking bad and told Samuel to call Saul.
Those four Books of Kings make for some fine reading.
There is also an analogy with David and Goliath.
Smart David versus goofy Goliath, like the .458 WM+ versus the Lottites.
The Lottites were not one of the tribes of Israel.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
On the politics manual; go look up what was told to the people when they requested a king like all the other nations had. Search tip. Saul was the first earthly king of Israel and Sammuel was the Judge who was asked to appoint him.
In connection to this thread; Israel had a 458wmp and wanted a Lott of what others had.

The Lord saw that things were breaking bad and told Samuel to call Saul.
Those four Books of Kings make for some fine reading.
There is also an analogy with David and Goliath.
Smart David versus goofy Goliath, like the .458 WM+ versus the Lottites.
The Lottites were not one of the tribes of Israel.

I have at least a dozen of those "politics manuals" within ten feet of my loading station -- in differing translations and three languages -- it's simply a miracle that they all agree and have no "political" differences!

But, do not fear, that day is coming when there will be no politics, just one righteous King over everything and everyone! (Paul's Epistle to the Romans ch.14, vs 10 - 13) -- no matter what language you read or in what version/translation!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca
www.bigbores.ca

10 Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[c] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the Lord will not answer you in that day.”
We were warned that our desire for an Earthly King would cause a Lott of problems.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
So, we can get back to The Mission.
Great to see you back Ron !
As usual, Great work ! How big a muzzle brake do you have on Daisy ?

How dare you accuse me of a muzzle brake on Daisy the Ruger No. 1 !

I'm thinking I want to restock The Spruce King.
Am debating on wether to go with a Boyd's laminate or modern Ruger Hawkeye synthetic. It would be quite nifty to find a Ruger Synthetic with molded in camo.

Let us know what you find. IIRC B&C has started making their Medalist-style stock for the Ruger MkII and Hawkeye. That would be a best buy.
B&C quit making the Ruger No. 1 stocks.

A friend has his reloading press all set up. But his sports car (auto cross) is sleeping in the garage , in the way of getting to the reloading station.
Need to build a reloading/shooting house at my place.

Be sure to get a green Cabela's roof over it for nostalgia sake.

Do you see a muzzle brake on this ? I just don't see it.





The only screws that loosened slightly were the low-torque ring-top screws.
I recommend checking for finger-tip tightness with screwdriver regularly, probably before 120 rounds fired.

Clean rifle bore every 100 rounds or annually,
whichever comes first.



Shoot twice weekly if just carrying a lot in Alaska, to keep it always ready.

I really do apologize ! That's A LOT of crash and roar . Did you get a gun headache ?
WOW.
U da Man !

CTF,

That 1.75"-thick foam pad between gun and shoulder eliminates gun headache from benchrest testing.

If you build another rifle, PLEASE DO NOT STAMP IT WITH THE T-WORD !!!
That might get you sent to a re-education camp for cult de-programming.

Please mark it with a plus sign instead,
or use the words "Holy Cross Cartridge":

.458 Winchester Magnum Holy Cross Cartridge
.458 WMHCC
.458 WM+C
or most simply: .458WM+
The faithful will know what it means.

Speaking of which,
I have 54 more rounds that have been sitting loaded since the previous 120 handloads were fired.

30 of them are 450-grain TSX bullets like the bullets Jerry and Bob sped to over 2400 fps with ball powders,
83.0 gr AA-2460 and 84.0 gr H335 respectively,
with COLs of 3.565" and 3.530" respectively.
Those are cool loads, full cases of the compact ball powders, and COL less than 3.600".

I am going to see if I can make cool loads with the 450-gr TSX and H4895.
Those will start off at 71.0 gr of H4895, 102% LR/net fill without a drop tube, loose pour into the Hornady brass case.
That is at COL of 3.595" and seating depth of 0.425", just barely cool.

I will use my aluminum arrow shaft drop tube and see if I can test-fire up to 80.0 gr of H4895.
Fingers holy-crossed.

If that does not go to hell on me,
I will shorten the COL in the higher capacity Norma brass and see if I can increase the charge of compressed H4895 to 84.0 grains.
COL of 3.562" and seating depth of 0.458" with the 450-gr TSX would be cool in many ways.
Why, that is so numerolgically correct I might want to stick with that, no matter what brass
make and velocity achieved.
3.562"COL/0.458"SeatDepth/450-grTSX-FB 1.520" BOL.

Jerry's COL of 3.565" and seating depth of .455"
was close to perfect, in W-W Super brass,
+2400 fps with 83.0 gr AA-2460 in a 24" barrel.

Compressed H4895 trial is just because, I gots to know.

I also have another 24 rounds loaded to sample the Hodgdon CFE 223 and Alliant Power Pro Varmint.
Will use the Hornady 500-gr RNSN InterLock (Gen-2) at 0.350" seating depth, and COL will be 3.480".
The InterLock has a BOL of 1.330" versus the old original Gen-1 BOL of 1.350".

37* F and breezy here when I checked, and I do not trust the chronograph blowing in the wind at less than 40*F.
54 rounds ready to go when it warms up and is not blowing too hard.
3 rounds of Hornady factory loaded 500-gr DGS before and after those 54 will make an even 60.
I know Daisy can handle it.
Good way to lap her bore.
I'll hang a sandbag on the chrono tripod.

RIP, can't wait for the CFE223 data! Pretty sure it will be at its best with those 500+ grain bullets seated long. The extra space in the Norma brass will be of extra benefit for this slow powder. Did you use a drop tube?

+
Indeed the CFE223 and a couple of other new powders are likely to be right on the + of perfection in the quest to make the 458wm's greatness ascendance to the Top again.

speaking of Norma 458 bras I just bought 300 of them
glad to hear that you are able to put more powder in them
I have noticed they need a lot of force to seat the primer
any of you have noticed this?

Can anyone direct me to a source for Norma .458 brass?

Contact Us:

Phone: (780) 372-4440

Fax: (780) 372-4447

Email link: ontarget@xplornet.com

Mailing Address:

Box 126, 5012 - 50 Street

Bashaw, Alberta T0B 0H0

I don't know if he ships to the US
and I don'know if he has some more
I bought 300 fo them about on month ago
good luck
Canuck

Thank you!

I updated the PDF of this thread; it's complete through the post above this one.

It's 343 MB and 7114 pages.

Hannay's Dropbox