quote:

Handy computation for velocity in fps (V) needed for a bullet of a specified weight in grains (BW) to yield a kinetic energy (KE) of a specified value in ft-lbs:

V = square root of [(450387)(KE)/(BW)]

You might want to use a pocket calculator that can handle numbers on the order of 10,000,000.00 or more
unless you are a savant.
Start off by dividing KE by BW, then multiply that by the constant 450387.
Do square root of that result.
Derived from:

KE = (BW x V*2)/450387

There are faster ways, no pocket calculator necessary.

For example: at 2600fps the muzzle-energy is almost exactly 1.5 times the bullet weight, plus appropriate zeros.
That means that a 400 grain projectile at 2600fps will be 400x1.5=600, add a zero,
=6000ft#.
At 3000 the factor is a simple 2.
250gnx2=500, plus zero, = 5000ft#
300gn x 2 = 600, plus zero, = 6000ft#
2700,2800, 2900 are approximately steps of 1/8 of a bullet weight more, plus the zero, of course. So 1.62, 1.75, 1.87 (= bullet X 2 - [1/8 bullet, plus zero])
Lower speeds start to spread a bit, I think that the point where bullet weight (plus zero) equals energy is about 2150fps. A 500gn bullet at 2150 will be about 5000ft#.
the 1 1/3 factor is about 2450, IIRC.
So a 300gn bullet at 2450 will be about 1 1/3 x 300, which equals 400 + zero = 4000ft#.

All this is doable in one's head, chick-chack.

For tricky stuff, use factored one or two place numbers. Comparing recoil for a particular rifle, 350gn at 2600 vs 300gn at 2800?
26 x 3.50 can be compared to 28 x 3.00, ratio is about 91 to 84 ("units of recoil in one's head")

Such little run-arounds are useful when driving down an interstate and questioning a new cartridge or load.
Tangible orders of magnitude in digits for hunters and hunters' shoulders probably stops at 2, as in 26, 28, 84 and 91. Tweak to taste.

(PS: square roots for evaluating velocity changes with caliber loads are pretty easy, too, when numbers are kept down to squares of single digits or numbers up to 20 or 30. If one has a load 350gn 2800fps, what could a 300gn do in the caliber? [Compare energies, so one ends up looking at the square root of a sum, as follows] 2.8x2.8 x3.5=7.84x3.5=~27.4. This is approximate to X-squared x 3.0, which means 27.4/3 = X-squared, so square root of 9.1 is the approximate velocity, = ~ 3, then adding back the zeros = 3000fps could be expected.)

We all know that objective Moral values exist. Go to any place on the globe and steal a mans most dear possession. He will prove the existence of objective moral values to you. We all have to then decide to what anchor we tie our rope to. I rest easy with the decision I’ve made. I wish the same rest for all.

Bob;
I prefer the Proverb,
Drive out the mocker and out goes strife.
I don't have the bcv off the top of my head but will get it.

416Tanzan,

Nice, good thoughts for walkin'the dog. Buy a donkey.
Similar stargazing and hearing the music of the spheres through simple arithmetic:

And thank you for cutting me some slack--

I see that the bullet weight(x10) = energy intersection
is at 2122fps.

(My memory of 2150 was off, as I don't usually hunt at those velocities.)
But 2450 uses a factor of 1.33, 2600 uses 1.5, 2800 1.75, and 3000 2.0. Approximately, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Bob;
I prefer the Proverb,
Drive out the mocker and out goes strife.
I don't have the bcv off the top of my head but will get it.

The reference is Proverbs 22:10; I did mention Solomon (who wrote the Book of Proverbs in the Bible) as one of my sources for wisdom.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Bill73:
Go see a therapist & get off this thread.

Bill73,
Buy a donkey for that advice to sambarman338,
but did you have to quote him in the process ?

The latest feature of THE MISSION is now designated as the
"GOLD STAR LOAD" with no weekly connotation to it.
Such timeless loads go on the wall permanently.

These GOLD STAR LOADs are not limited to .458 WT.
Any .458 WM load within SAAMI standards is also eligible for this honor,
based on qualities of accuracy, utility, and any objective or subjective appreciation of a handload or factory load.

All it takes is for one member in good standing with THE MISSION to cast a legal vote for their favored load, and supply the verified specifics.

This is unlike the process whereby millions of illegal votes by flag-burners, the dead, and the unknowing were tallied for Joe Biden, President Reject of the USA.

Without further ado, the first GOLD STAR LOAD on the wall, a handload by Sir Jerry McDonald:



No pressure signs reported for either charge,
but 2 grains of extra powder did not return much MV increase.


.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Bill73,
I will see Rip's donkey and raise him one!

Plus some New Years Humor_ we had rain all New Years Eve day and all that night. The rain was heavy enough that only a couple of fireworks booms were heard, making for the most peaceful New Years since we moved here 16 years ago. No cringing dogs or cats and no madly racing , terrified Welsh Ponies (they just went in barn for the night).
And now sunny days! Off to a good start and time to take down and put away Christmas decorations.
And now time for lunch!

Bob ;

On a reloading note . have any of y'all seen primers showing up on your toy store shelves yet ?
I sure am looking for a brick of Fed 215s

CTF,

They have vanished from my local emporium but there was a recent arrival of magnum handgun primers.
There is hope.
Until then I am just glad I stocked up on rifle primers before the Obama boom of the gun trade.
I have pre-2008 aplenty, and a brick of a thousand here and there since then, whenever they can be found on ration.
Older ones still seem to be working fine.
Fear of Democrats causes a run on disinfectants also.

Seems to be a shortage of Mauser 98 safeties overall, but NECG apparently has them in stock,
3-position a la Winchester M70 wing.
That is going to have to do for the Big Ugly build.

She won't be revealed until the safety is installed ... and the Redfield "Little Bo Peep" is added to the steel QRW rear base ...
flashlight Picatinny epoxy has cured, and the custom paint job is dry.

It will be a chance to see what a tiny amount of velocity is lost when using a .458 Lott wildcat like Jack built
to fire the .458 WM & WT ammo.

Otherwise, she will be used for 250- to 350-grain varmint loads and birdshot loads,
that is the only way the 2.8" case has any possible advantage over the 2.5" case.

I wonder if I could get two of those Speer .45 LC shot capsules into the .458 Lott ?
Maybe even standard .410 shotgun loads for the 2.8" case ?

No muzzle brake with birdshot and wads or shot capsules, of course.

.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

RIP, many, many Thanks for the gift of 450gr TSX bullets for the 458 WIN TRUMP, that most generous amount will keep me set for life, going to be 28 degrees in the morning, will shoot velocities early tomorrow afternoon, then place another box at 40 yards and have at it with a 6 0'clock hold, will be interesting to see where, and how tight they land.

Thumbed a dummy round together, it measured 3.550 inch, perfect imho, 2450 to 2500 fps will be homemade peanut butter icing on the cake! ; ]

Thanks again for the bullets Sir.......for, "The Mission"

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

It will be a chance to see what a tiny amount of velocity is lost when using a .458 Lott wildcat like Jack built
to fire the .458 WM & WT ammo.
Otherwise, she will be used for 250- to 350-grain varmint loads and birdshot loads,
that is the only way the 2.8" case has any possible advantage over the 2.5" case.
I wonder if I could get two of those Speer .45 LC shot capsules into the .458 Lott ?
Maybe even standard .410 shotgun loads for the 2.8" case ?

RIP
When I first got my Krieghoff .458 WM O/U double rifle in my hands and was trying to get in some good snap shooting practice, I used to take it out to the gun club and shoot International Skeet with it, using regular .410 ammunition. The fired cases were unuseable afterwards, of course, but otherwise it worked well.

International Skeet difers from the American version in that it requires the shooter to have the butt stock of his gun touching his hip bone when he calls for the "bird" and it must remain there until the bird actualy apears. Also, there is up to a three second delay betwen the time the bird is called for and when it is actualy released, which means that the shooter must react to it rather than vice versa. Shooting skeet with a scope is good practice, too, for rapid target acquisition.

The stock dimensions for my .458 are the same as those from the stock of my Perazzi International Skeet shotgun.

Sir Jerry,

Welcome and buy a donkey to you too.
Much appreciated whenever you get around to it is fine.
I am still dithering with 150 pieces of H4895 loads.
Waiting for slop to clear and temps hopefully 40 F or higher.
Whatever you can do with the 450-gr TSX in the .458 WIN TRUMP will be great support of THE MISSION.
AA-2460 is my first choice too, trying for noncompressed or minimal compression.



If that does not work,
pretty sure I can use H4895 compressed to whatever it takes to get the job done:

xausa,
Mighty cool shooting skeet with your scoped .458 WM Krieghoff O/U double rifle and .410 shotshells.
Have a German beer on me.

So Big Ugly might be useful with regular .410 shotgun loads in the .458 Lott brass !
Now I have a use for .458 Lott brass besides cutting them down to 2.5" !

The article about xausa's skeet rifle is on page 173 of this thread:

A Krieghoff Double Rifle in Africa


.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Good stuff RIP,

83gr AA2460 went 2406 fps at 5 yards out.

COL 3.565" in FL sized WW Super brass cases.

Three rounds just over an inch at 40 yards with the barrel sights and 6 0'clock hold, no rear bag again, just rifle resting in hand on front sandbag rest, the 450gr TSX shoots a bit tighter than the 500gr TBSH solids in my 458 WIN TRUMP.

Cases absolutely fell from the chamber, all with nice round shoulders on the spent primers, ZERO over pressure issues, I believe more velocity with the 450gr TSX's ban be had with AA2230, it would be a barn burner.

Sir Jerry had another Blue Bird Day, home on the range, for his latest joust with the chronograph:



It was a heat wave, 55*F, plumb tropical.
Good thing he sallied forth with such an excellent tropical load, good for +110*F or -20*F, no doubt.
It'll do in a pinch for anything that does not require a solid bullet, which he already has covered with the TBSH.



My oh my, look how rounded the primers are.

With the joust concluded, our champion moves on to the 40-yard paper tiger.

The paper tiger was well killed.

Yep, excellent tropical load deserving to be "Gold Star Load" #2 from Sir Jerry.

I will add the 450-gr TSX to the H4895 ladder,
instead of the 405-gr Remington.
The 400-gr Speer will serve for the low end with H4895. 400-gr Woodleigh has already been used with the high end of H4895, compressed,
and was pleasingly fast (+2600 fps) and accurate even though it is a tad slower in burn rate than AA-2460.

There are plenty of recommendations for AA-2230 with the shorter COLs and 400-gr to 500-gr bullets.
AA-2460 has again been proven great for "tropical loads,"by Sir Jerry with 450-grainer,
and previously by me with the 480-gr T6 from BB&BMT, Ltd. (500-gr TSX with its tip cut off).

If you are willing to deal with drop-tubing and compressing H4895,
that might do it all from 400-gr to 600-gr.
Use H4198 for 350-gr and lighter bullets in the .458 WM/WT.
So many other ball powders to try !


.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

RIP, Thank You for posting the pics, it was a fun day indeed, AA2230 or drop tubed H-4895 may indeed be the speed champs with the 450gr TSX's in the 458 WIN TRUMP, I think there's another 60-80 fps on the table with safe pressures.

IIRC Buffalo Bore loads their 450gr TSX's to 2350 fps in the 458 Lott, so I didn't do too bad today with the AA2460, accuracy was plenty good for express sight shooting, with a scope sighted 458 WIN TRUMP, todays load would easily reach and handily dispatch all manner of large plains game, as well as moose, bear and elk to 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
RIP, Thank You for posting the pics, it was a fun day indeed,

Welcome. I'll take that to be a buy a donkey. And buy a donkey to you too, Sir Jerry.
AA2230 or drop tubed H-4895 may indeed be the speed champs with the 450gr TSX's in the 458 WIN TRUMP, I think there's another 60-80 fps on the table with safe pressures.

True, if SAAMI .458 Lott pressures are considered safe, .458 WIN TRUMP pressures are lower for same velocity attained.
What is not to like ?
AA-2230 acts like a pre-flattened-balls form of AA-2460.
I SWAG that AA-2460 could be turned into AA-2230 by squashing it with enough compression.
H4895 gets to be its best when compressed.

IIRC Buffalo Bore loads their 450gr TSX's to 2250 fps in the 458 Lott, so I didn't do too bad today with the AA2460, accuracy was plenty good for express sight shooting, with a scope sighted 458 WIN TRUMP, todays load would easily reach and handily dispatch all manner of large plains game, as well as moose, bear and elk to 300 yards.

AMEN,
meaning "so be it," completely devoid of association with gender.
You won't catch me saying AWOMEN or APERSON like an idiot Democrat in Congress!

.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

When I first got interested in the SAAMI .458 WM it seemed that 400-grainer at 2400 fps was the holy grail of loads.

Now, with the .458 WIN TRUMP, the grail has gotten holier: 450-grainer at +2400 fps and lower pressure.


.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

RIP;

You may recall that I got 2403 fps from the 450gr A-Frame (corrected to MV). That was Rem brass, WLRM primer, 84 grains of H335 @ 3.53" COL on June 11/19 from the No.1 Ruger with 24" barrel. Temp was 70*F.

I have a fairly fresh can of H4895 and want a new can of A2460. Will make some calls today.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

450-gr TSX loads:

Bob: 84.0 grains H335, 3.53" COL, 24" ported barrel, 70*F >>> 2403 fps MV corrected for chrono, add 10 fps for 0.4% MV loss to porting = 2413 fps MV
Jerry: 83.0 grains AA-2460, 3.57" COL, 24" barrel, 55*F >>> 2418 fps MV corrected
Rip: 82.0 grains AA-2230, 3.68" COL, 25" barrel, 42*F >>> 2448 fps MV corrected

Sir Bob,

Your excellent load is noted. That is really good when considering the 3.53" COL from a dense ball powder, not compressed.
My only reservation about your load is that though some say H335 is good for thermal stability,
more claims for AA-2460 and AA-2230 have been made in that regard.

You and Sir Jerry will share the next Gold Star Loads on the wall.
His load is 3.565", so call it 3.57".
In fact there will be three, with mine too in the mob.

The new standard will conservatively subtract 20 fps from 25"-barrel velocity to correct to 24"-barrel velocity.
MV correction is based on BC of 0.369 for the 450-grain TSX.

82.0 gr AA-2230 with 450-gr TSX >>> 2428 fps MV (corrected to 24" barrel), but mine was for 3.68" COL.
Technical points subtracted for excessive COL,
but this load was the most accurate and had lowest std. dev. of velocity (2.3 fps for 3 shots) of my ladder.



That's my load to share honors with Sir Bob and Sir Jerry,
pending the compressed H4895 shoot.
I will be sure next one is less than 3.6" COL and shoot it in a 24" barrel for no deductions.

According to one BURN RATE CHART, fastest to slowest:

1) Norma R-1
.
.
.
100) Hodgdon H-4198
.
.
.
112) Hodgdon Benchmark
113) Hodgdon H-335
114) Ramshot X-Terminator
115) Accurate 2230
116) Accurate 2460
117) IMR-8208 XBR
118) Ramshot TAC
119) Hodgdon H-4895
.
.
.
125) Alliant Varmint
.
.
.
135) Hodgdon Varget
.
.
.
140) Hodgdon CFE 223
.
.
.
197) Vihtavuori 20N29


.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Gold Star Load from Sir Bob:

The third Gold Star Load on the wall is the second from Sir Jerry:

The above loads are recommended for any rifles with barrels complying with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambers and rifling.
The users of SAAMI .458 Lott chambered rifles will experience higher pressures with these loads,
and must accept full responsibility for firing .458 WIN TRUMP ammunition in those SAAMI .458 Lott rifles.

.458 WIN TRUMP
Winchester's Truly Realized Ultimate Magnum Perfection
.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
Nota bene: In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Rip
Took all my rifles for walks i. The woods this year and the only one to kill a deer was the great and mighty 458 wm. I have one more chance next weekend. Been carrying the CPR Winchester 32 special with 185 cast bulges the past few trips. Probably give it one more chance.
Best to you sir.
D

Fellow Forum members. Last evening RIP let me know that his account here has been canceled by those with the power to do so. The message he received as a reason for doing so was vulgar condemnation labeling him as a "Trump Traitor" who was "destroying America."
Sad day. We have lost sight of the values of Freedom, first in Freedom to Worship and in that, the Freedom to Speak.
The Watchman on the wall has blown the Horn.
Best regards,

i have a cz 602 in .458 win mag. is itsafe to shoot the the trump loads in it. idont know abt the chambering specs

I wonder who is the powder to be that banned a person with so much knowledge to loose here on this forum? if freedom of speech on an open forum bothers someone so much then that person should reflect on them selves and maybe they should either leave the forum or just not follow it

Just as we have seen all year, Mobs rarely generate anything other than destruction and more angst.
The latest Mob event in DC has also generated more Mob rule and that pressure is driving discourse to a new low; speech is being censored heavily on all things connected to the President.
Private business has a right to censor whom they allow and this site is a privately owned site.
We as private citizens have a right to speak, but not a right to be heard. We are all poorer and weaker by RIPS exclusion.
Best regards,

quote:

Last evening RIP let me know that his account here has been canceled by those with the power to do so. The message he received as a reason for doing so was vulgar condemnation labeling him as a "Trump Traitor" who was "destroying America."

Remember the first page graphic at the first of this month?
Was that Saeed or just who?
If that is the present and future character of this forum, my presence will soon be history.

Hi Guys;

On Thursday, Jan 7, Dr Ron Berry (RIP) informed me that he had been banned from this forum. Since then we had further correspondence in which he sent me the results of his latest work employing H4895 in conjunction with the 450 TSX, which follows.

He had just loaded H4895 from 75 grains to 84 grains with the 450 TSX, 3 shots each charge at 3.595" COL.
This was mildly compressed to heavily compressed after drop tube.

3.680" would be better, he said, especially in a Ruger No.1 or CZ 550 Magnum.
"Been there done that with AA-2230".
He will stop if he gets any "funny business" on his way up the ladder at 3.595" COL and H4895.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I just got an email from Tom at Accurate Molds and he has modified an existing design (46-485N) into the new 46-394N at my request. I was looking for a lighter weight general purpose practice/hunting bullet. It has a .6" nose length, crimp groove, and long full diameter front band section.

.461 Diameter bands yes?