It is the way of most things it seems Todd. Facts are the last component of opinions and most folks would rather they just Rest In Peace while their individual bias runs out in front.

Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.

Jack Lott claimed numerous times that a .458 500 grain Bullet giving an honest 2150 fps muzzle velocity was ALL he wanted and was hoping for his longer design.

And the fact that the 458wm was always and is still that and much more was the purpose of the 234 pages. The facts about the 458wm and the 458 Lott were just residual learning that we came upon and proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.
Those that want to learn can and will. Those that don’t, well won’t.
My Best to Old Ugly Phil.

Jack Lott was no better or worse than any of the other ego driven gun writers who promoted cartridges named after themselves.

I've always been puzzled by the fact that if Jack Lott didn't think the 458 Win Mag was enough for buffalo, he didn't jump up to a 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs. I don't think a buffalo would be impressed by the extra 150 fps in velocity

Once folks start down the road of excusing Bad shooting and relying on "More Power" the end is never pretty.
Phil explained it very well.

Jack, as both editor and writer, for the old Peterson's Guns & Ammo BIG BORE RIFLES book told his story of the buffalo hunt with Wally Johnson in Mozambique. He admits that he gut shot the bull that tossed him and it had nothing at all to do with the 458 ! And Wally picked up Jacks rifle and killed the bull.
Then Jack continues on praising the 458 Win.

About a dozen year later, after his design had been introduced, in an updated edition of Big Bores and a letter to Wolfe Publishing, Jack has nothing to say good about the Winchester version and led the readers to believe his getting bashed was the fault of the 458 Win !!

One or two high profile writers then took it upon themselves to promote Jack's updated version and to bad mouth the 458 Win every chance they got.

quote:

Originally posted by crshelton:
Todd "Ballistic Masturbation " ???

Great term.

If it is true that the early DG benchmark velocity was a .458 bullet at 2150 fps, what is all this fuss about?

2150 fps still works according to a friend that took ele and buff with NF bullets at that MV. Maybe faster MV is good for hunters that shoot DG at 200 and 300 yards.

Wasn't my term for the thread. That was Ray Ray's term.

quote:

2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?

Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?

Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.

From your post it sounds like you prefer the 460 Wby

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

2150 fps
what is all this fuss about?

Well, some of us like a little more MV. I would like 2400fps, and to be honest I really want 2600fps. I like to walk with one gun in the forest and to be ready for an easy 300 yards across a flat opening in the forest. But I agree with Ray that recoil gets old as we get older. At the moment I think that a 350grain .416" at 2600fps in a nifty little Ruger still sounds pretty good, but maybe Ray is right, so perhaps a 270gn .375" at 2700fps in a 375Ruger would be even more fun, for longer.
It ought to do hartebeest or impala at 300yards just fine. And DG up close.

From your post it sounds like you prefer the 460 Wby

I thought about building a 460 a decade ago but built a 500 AccRel instead. The 500 is a nice caliber. It does 500 Jeffrey ballistics in a Ruger Hawkeye package and is especially efficient with lighter monolithic like the GSC 450gn and CEB 350 Raptor and 400.

How about a Barnes 350 TSX at 2680 in the 458 WM? If we had Phil's favorite 400 X in the TSX available to hand loaders we could trade a little velocity, still could make near 2550, for some BC and still make that easy 300 yard shot.
I do honor the recoil issue. My 30-06 and my 260 Remington address that issue for me but the 458 goes to the deer woods every year with me for it's fair share of days.

I would love to see the 400 grain TSX released to the public.
I would be very satisfied with 2300 FPS, and delighted with anything over that.

many have asked including myself and Barnes just says that Buffalo Bore has the rights to that bullet, I am going to try the 402 gr bullet that Hammer Bullets make and see what happens but will have to wait till it gets warmer it is 6 degrees right now and wind chill makes it -10 below

Yep, I would imagine that Buffalo Bore has some money in the manufacturing of those 400 TSX and some type of contractual agreement.
I would really like what I assume the higher BC of the 400 grain TSX. The Hammer Bullets are interesting, but I have not looked into the .458 versions.

For closer range lighter bullets, I have some North Fork 350 grain cup points. I wanted to try the 325 grain version in 45-70 and the 400 grain in the 458 Winchester and Lott. But, the 350 grain is all that I could find.
I also have some Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points, originally purchased with the 45-70 in mind.
Both of these probably have the BC of a coffee cup. But, should be effective at 100 yards and under, if I come up with a decently accurate load.
I have a few 450 grain TSX and 400 grain Swift A-Frame that I also want to try.

Lol, copy that weather restriction!

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
many have asked including myself and Barnes just says that Buffalo Bore has the rights to that bullet, I am going to try the 402 gr bullet that Hammer Bullets make and see what happens but will have to wait till it gets warmer it is 6 degrees right now and wind chill makes it -10 below

you can also make your own 400 gr bullets just cut the bottom off at the first grove and smooth everything out and do a very slight bevel on the base try it with a 450 but I think you need to use the 500 gr

I agree on the modification possibility. I have followed, and still do, RIP’s continual research/experimentation with everything 458 Winchester.
But, with my intended shooting distances, I think the 350 grain cup point should work well. I have a few boxes of these on hand. I would have preferred to try the 400 cup points in the 458 Winchester & Lott, and the 325 grain version in 45-70’s. But, I think these should perform well for 100 yards and under shooting even in the 45-70.

The 45-70 load would be a replacement for 420 grain hard cast flat points. I do want to try some of the Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points also. The Lehigh may be best for it.
The 458 Winchester & Lott are just mostly for the hell of it. Though, I definitely think they would be excellent on closer range moose and bear. If these don’t pan out for my rifles, I will stick with the 450 grain TSX and/or A-Frames. I moose hunt the most with a 375 Ruger or 416 Ruger.
I will check out those Hammer bullets. I am aware that many have very good results with them.

quote:

Originally posted by hydehunter:
you can also make your own 400 gr bullets just cut the bottom off at the first grove and smooth everything out and do a very slight bevel on the base try it with a 450 but I think you need to use the 500 gr

Those 402 grain Hammer bullets, sound promising. I look forward to seeing the velocity that you get from those.

This thread is as old as the 30-06 vs the 270, and everyone on earth is qualified to comment, and thats a good thing I suppose..

Not many will change their mind on this subject, I sure as hell won't!!

long live the .458 Win Mag plus "P"

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
This thread is as old as the 30-06 vs the 270, and everyone on earth is qualified to comment, and thats a good thing I suppose..

Not many will change their mind on this subject, I sure as hell won't!!

After carrying one for over 40 years, and killing all sorts of big nasties with it, neither will I ?

The more I experimented with other large bores from the 375 up to the 505 Gibbs, the more impressed I have become with the standard 458 Win !

To understand the doctrine of free will, one only has to read and absorb the pages and pages of facts then look at the positional glue of those who choose to think differently anyway.

Freedom. May we long have the choice to do so.

Ok.. I am coming to the party late. I have to say the 458 Win is FUN! The 500 grain bullets kick a bit but down at 3-400 grain you not only get more speed but way less recoil. Makes the Old Win Safari almost fun to shoot. 300 TSX, 350 TSX, 350 Speer FN, 400 Barnes Original Spitzers and 400 Swift A-Frames all shoot to MOA (except the Speer which will often have a flier in my rifle) And all see to have some good Terminal possibilities. A day bullet testing found here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXN0beKVq5Y

quote:

Originally posted by North61:
Ok.. I am coming to the party late. I have to say the 458 Win is FUN! The 500 grain bullets kick a bit but down at 3-400 grain you not only get more speed but way less recoil. Makes the Old Win Safari almost fun to shoot. 300 TSX, 350 TSX, 350 Speer FN, 400 Barnes Original Spitzers and 400 Swift A-Frames all shoot to MOA (except the Speer which will often have a flier in my rifle) And all see to have some good Terminal possibilities. A day bullet testing found here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXN0beKVq5Y

Here is a beautiful .458 bullet:

https://hammerbullets.com/prod...l-400g-shock-hammer/

404 grains, easy to tune, good BC, deep penetration of blunt cylinder, and petals that penetrate out like the CEB. In stock.

I agree on that Hammer bullet. I now have some of those and I am looking forward to loading & shooting them. That may turn out to be a top contender in the 400 grain.458 bullets.
Good see a higher BC. bullet in this weight class. Hopefully the penetration will prove out to expectations.

It appears the Hammer bullet folks are making a serious run at providing what people want in the all copper bullet market and doing so is a great overall design. There are a number of folks venturing out with the magnificent 458WM and the 404 Hammer this year. We should have some data from the field as a result. Everything I want and need from my 458WM I get with a big flat nosed Cast bullet but I do enjoy reading the results of others pushing the development curve forward.
Best Regards,
F01

Todd,
your a gentleman and a scholar..

I don't believe there is any better DG combination than a handloaded 458 Win. unless its a 458 Lott loaded down to 458 Win specs..It creates less pressure for one thing, and reduces recoil, and return to battery..and if one must load it up and blow an elephants head off, its up to whatever you ask of it, and last but not least you can shoot 458 win ammo in it all day long,not to mention you can clean out that win chamber to the Lott with your finger nail!!

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by North61:
Ok.. I am coming to the party late. I have to say the 458 Win is FUN! The 500 grain bullets kick a bit but down at 3-400 grain you not only get more speed but way less recoil. Makes the Old Win Safari almost fun to shoot. 300 TSX, 350 TSX, 350 Speer FN, 400 Barnes Original Spitzers and 400 Swift A-Frames all shoot to MOA (except the Speer which will often have a flier in my rifle) And all see to have some good Terminal possibilities. A day bullet testing found here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXN0beKVq5Y

Here is a beautiful .458 bullet:

https://hammerbullets.com/prod...l-400g-shock-hammer/

404 grains, easy to tune, good BC, deep penetration of blunt cylinder, and petals that penetrate out like the CEB. In stock.

Yes I am hoping to get my hands on some of these to try in my Model 70 .458 WM, but getting Hammer bullets in Canada is not an easy task. I have been using the 350 grain Speer and 350 grain TSX...but sure would like to try the 404 grain Hammers.

I recall when my good friend George Hoffman sent me his 460 Wby and a box of ammo to sell for him as he was on his last legs with cancer...I shot up that box of ammo and my need for a 460 was over, George was recoil proof, and Im a wuss! I sold it for him btw on AR. George, Saeed, Pierre and I were set up for Georges last safari with Pierre von Tonder Safaris but it wasn't in the cards for George..I killed the largest buffalo Ive seen in the wild on that hunt and we named him the Hoffman bull and said a prayer to a great gentleman..Mary sent me his cartridge belt and knife, He has been sorely missed..We will hunt together again, wherever the good Lord puts us hunters and 70 inch buffalo live.

The 404 is a grand caliber, my all time favorite, mostly nostalgia, but it sure gets the job done, just like the 458, 416, and a host of others..

Anyone try using 450 Marlin dies to load a 450 Marlin length 458 Win mag for magazine feed or single shot? like the 458 WM/458 Lott but the smaller direction.

I see a lot of folks, complaining about the recoil while in defense of their 458 Win.?? Makes no sence, the 458 win was designed to shoot the 500 gr. bullet and its at its best with that bullet, rather than shoot low SD bullets on big game, drop down to a lesser caliber such as the 416 or 404 shooting the 400 gr. bullet and maintaining the penetration or SD..Only makes since to me and recoil is where you have been looking for..a 350 bullet in a 458 is almost the same as a shotgun slug out of a 20 ga as to the needed balistics for DG. Just my two bits on trying to fix something that ain't broke to start with..A 500 gr. 458 at 2000 to 2200 FPs depending on barrel length is death and destruction on the heels of the 470 NE..

Someone said "And the beat goes on" !

For one, I wonder why all the fuss about the Hammer bullets?
Is it because some folks have never tried the North Fork Bullets?
A .458 NF at 2150 fps on a frontal brain shot from 20 yards will shoot through ele heads and on into the body. Most shots on Cape Buff ae shoot throughs.

Just wondering?

Im startled by facts, and baffled by BS in this thread, and my conficence is on edge!

I shot my Lott with a hot load of near 2500 FPS in a test as the pressure signs built up and that was beyond max, I dropped it down to 2300 and 2400 and got away with it for quite sometime, until recoil got to this ancient body, so ended up at 2300 fps, and its still working..

On a couple of 458s I got up to 2250 and lots of pressure reslulted such as sticky bolt, a crack as opposed to a boom, extracter square in the head and rather flat primer and finally a smoke ring with flat primer, all this on on case at the same firing, its was one hot bugger, so I tried it one more time with a mask and got head seperation, eventually I ended up with a 500 gr. bullet at 2122 FPS average and my hunting load was 2100 and it like my 470 at 2020 recoiled alike and killed buffalo the same..

Eventually I loaded my Lott down to 2250 FPS and it was nice to shoot with gritted teeth and dirty words..I always thought the Lott more efficient and stil do, but I enjoy my 458 Win at the range or in the bush.

What does this prove to me or anyone else, not a damn thing other than one is as good as the other, neither are non stopper and both demand good shooting. I stick to that come hell or high water..

There was a need for a good 400gr/.458 to replace the 400gr X-Bullet by Barnes that they decided not to replace with a 400 TSX. Myself, along with several others, including Dr. Ron Berry (RIP), tried to persuade Barnes to produce a 400gr TSX to no avail. So Ron took the bull by its horns, came up with a design for an all-copper HP with an excellent BC and convinced Hammer Bullets to produce it. It came out as a 404gr with a BC of over .400, and is now available in the USA. At 2500- 2600 fps from a .458 Win it's ideal for most big game, including elk, bears, moose, bison, and most of Africa's big 5, except elephant. A solid 450 to 500 is typical for eles.

For N.A. game, I've loaded the 250gr MonoFlex to about 2680 fps (could go to 3000 fps), the 300 TSX to 2960 fps, the 350 TSX to 2780 fps, the 400-X to 2590 fps, the 450 A-Frame to over 2400, the 480 DGX to 2353 and 500gr Hornadys to 2317 fps. All that from my Ruger #1 with a ported 24" barrel. But the 250gr MonoFlex (Hornady) is sighted for bear and whitetails. As well, the 550 Woodleigh is loaded to 1666 fps and is good for any game, except elephant, to 200 yards or so. It's not needed or wanted to go max all the time with a Big Bore to have the results desired. And it's much easier on the body!

The .458 Win is one of, if not the most, versatile and flexible rifle cartridge in existence.

There is a place in Toronto that deals in Hammer bullets. I'll see if they would order some of those 404s for the Canadian market.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob...I also found out from Steve at Hammer Bullets that Corlanes in Dawson Creek, BC (and soon to be in Prince George as well) is now a Hammer dealer and just received a shipment. I am in the process of contacting them to see what they got in on their first shipment as I want to get some of the 404 grain Hammers for my .458 as well.

Kelly

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Im startled by facts, and baffled by BS in this thread, and my conficence is on edge!

I shot my Lott with a hot load of near 2500 FPS in a test as the pressure signs built up and that was beyond max, I dropped it down to 2300 and 2400 and got away with it for quite sometime, until recoil got to this ancient body, so ended up at 2300 fps, and its still working..

On a couple of 458s I got up to 2250 and lots of pressure reslulted such as sticky bolt, a crack as opposed to a boom, extracter square in the head and rather flat primer and finally a smoke ring with flat primer, all this on on case at the same firing, its was one hot bugger, so I tried it one more time with a mask and got head seperation, eventually I ended up with a 500 gr. bullet at 2122 FPS average and my hunting load was 2100 and it like my 470 at 2020 recoiled alike and killed buffalo the same..

Eventually I loaded my Lott down to 2250 FPS and it was nice to shoot with gritted teeth and dirty words..I always thought the Lott more efficient and stil do, but I enjoy my 458 Win at the range or in the bush.

What does this prove to me or anyone else, not a damn thing other than one is as good as the other, neither are non stopper and both demand good shooting. I stick to that come hell or high water..

Ray, if you talk with the professional ballisticians for the ammo companies, the guys with both the knowledge and equipment to measure pressures, you will find out that there is only around 60-80 fps difference in velocity between the Winchester and the Lott when loaded to equal pressures.

And for 458 Only , Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore is now loading 400 gr Barnes TSX in the 458 Win. I don't know if he is getting a private run of bullets, or Barnes is making them again.
Either way it good news

Barnes has a contract and will only make the 400 TSX for Buffalo Bore only (really sucks that they did this) and Buffalo Bore will sell you loaded ammo for 120.00 per 20 rounds. hopefully the new owners of Barnes will find out and have Barnes open the market to all of us for the 400 grain bullet but for me I will buy them from Hammer Steve and the guys are great people even went to Africa this past April good hunters also

Some young, aspiring, and masochistic, gunwriter needs to do some real testing comparing the 350 gr and 400 gr TSX bullets.

I am 73 & fresh out of dead whales.