I am currently planning to order another custom M98 with a standard length action. Over the years I had all kind of rifles with magnum actions (too long for my taste) but also sold most of them with a Echols Legend in 458 Lott left with which I am very happy.
However, this kind of power is not always needed so I want a shorter rifle with a 22" barrel. A small scope will be added with detachable mounts. I am leaning toward the 458 Win because it might be more suited to buffalo and elephant and there are lighter bullets for PG around also. Ammunition is easily available. Nevertheless a 416 Taylor is also tempting. Basically all ammo will be handloaded. What do you think?

375 vs 458
Posted by Murphy on Jan 21 2005
Bowhunter,

Your question regarding a rifle caliber reflects a limited experience with big boomers. Maybe rifles in general? A bow hunter huh? Anyway, I have some experience with both calibers and have taken several animals with both. I have also been with other hunters using those calibers. I have seen the good the bad and the ugly with both. I will say this, the more I shoot and hunt with the 375 H&H, the more I like it. If you are accustomed to the recoil of the 300 Mag., you can shoot the 375. The recoil level of the 458 Win. is a significant step up, and disportional to it's killing power. The 458 Win. will send 500 grain bullets at about 2000 fps. The 375, 300 grain at about 2570 fps. There seems to me to be a very close match between the 375 ballistics and a certain group of animals. Moose, Eland, Roan, Bongo, (yeah that's really it's name) large Elk and Lions!!I've taken all these except Moose and Bongo with the 375 H&H. I'm not as yet convinced the large caostal Brown Bears are in this category but certainly the Grizzly most often encountered here are. I also think the Cape Buffalo is not in this group but I won't hunt him with a 458 either. Moose and Brown Bears can both be killed with a 375, for sure, but in the case of the Bears, can he be stopped!! A big thing. Also can you shoot a heavy caliber as well and as quickly as you can a 375. I don't know, some people cannot shoot the 375 H&H at all. One other thing to consider, the weight and bulk of a rifle is a negative when hunting. Carrying, and bringing it to bear (so to speak) must be come a natural instinct for you. Bigger is not better unless you plan to use it as a club!! CZ safari's are very heavy, great rifle the CZ, but much to heavy for a hunting rifle in this caliber. I understand the 458's weight but why the 375? The take here is if it's heavy it won't kick so hard. True, but it's not belt fed. A balance of weight and tollerable recoil must be made. In regards to caliber for big Bears, a heavily penned debate in this forum, what you shoot well and instinctively is almost always better than a new heavy for a bear hunt. Secondly the 416 calibers are probably better calibers for bears and are more versatile in regards to different ranges (distances) you might have to shoot than the 458. The 458 is probably a great bear gun, but for only the small number who can shoot it well and at the shorter distances. It is fine for lion and they have teeth and claws! The 416 is also great for lions but much better for buffalo than the 458 because it penetrates better. Recoil however is a bit stiffer than the 458 Win. I would choose any 416 (416 Taylor, 416 Hoffman, 416 Rigby, 416 Wby. etc.) over the 458 Win. because it has better trajectory and penetrates better. It has been my Mbogo gun and will work for other tough guys. When I hunt Lions again, I'll use my 416 Rem. When I hunt big Brown Bruins, I'll use the 416 Rem, also. When I hunt moose I'll use the 375. When I hunt caribou where there (everywhere) may be grizzlies, I'll carry the 375. I can shoot it, I can carry it and it will be a better stopper than a 300 Mag. I'm glad you posted your question here but the truth is there are others here better qualified to respond. Those among us who have actually shot large bears and seen many shot with different calibers. I have hunted a great deal, but never shot a brown bear of any size. Common sense and Robert Ruark, say use enough gun! Hope this helps, good shootin'
Murphy

I already have among other rifles also a 375 which I used on several safaris which included buffalo and elephant.I am focusing on a handy and compact DGR rifle and I am willing to accept a trade of in increased recoil. If I would live in the US I would go for a B&M but for convenience reasons I will focus on 458 Win and 416 Taylor. While I like the 416 Rem it seems not the obvious choice for a standard Mauser 98 action.

if you go w the taylor you will never be sorry

if you go w the 458 wm you will never look back

taylor is a wildcat but one of the best

trick is to get one of each

my thoughts about em

don't blow off the 425 express it's a real gun as well

I have never felt the need for anything larger than a 40 caliber and the Taylor is an excellent choice.. The .458 works fine also, but Ive never been a .458 Win fan as its 10 lbs of crap in a 5 pound bag..If I want a 458 I'll go with the Lott...I'll probably get trashed by the Win. gang of rufffians!!

Maybe the 416 Ruger would be an alternative Too? But for a standard M98?

Look at all the bullet choices for the 458. High BC choices like the Barnes 350g, Swift 450g, Woodleigh 400g, make the rifle useful for general hunting. Then throw in all the cheaper 45-70 bullets for inexpensive fun. A handloader who isn't recoil sensitive could use the .458 for just about everything.

With the 416 ruger out there I would not build a Taylor.

If I wanted a 416.

If I didn't have a bunch of 416 T brass I would turn mine into a 416 ruger.

I am certainly not a gunsmith nor 98 expert.
But, it seems to me if the Taylor would work, so would the Ruger.

I am a fan of the 416 and the 375 Ruger cartridges.
So, the 416 Ruger would be my choice, unless there is a reason for it not working in a M98.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
Maybe the 416 Ruger would be an alternative Too? But for a standard M98?

of the two, the 458, everytime, all the time .. there is no compelling reason for the 416 if you reload, and it is not a player if you dont.

however, the 416 ruger is a fine 416 --

Does some make 416 Taylor head stamped brass? My only concern is someone in Africa not letting my ammo in the country because the brass doesn't match the gun.

I'd probably recommend a 416 Ruger for the above reasons even though I'm still mad at Ruger for not coming out with .404 (.423 diameter) Ruger cartridge instead of the .416.

got a 1000 416 taylor head stamp brass last year for africa think I got em through midwayusa

so yes it's out there

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...416-taylor-box-of-20


https://www.grafs.com/retail/c...gory/categoryId/3610

http://www.qual-cart.com/400%20cal.htm

https://www.midsouthshooterssu...fle-brass/416-taylor


https://www.brownells.com/relo...case-prod105483.aspx

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
got a 1000 416 taylor head stamp brass last year for africa think I got em through midwayusa

so yes it's out there

https://www.midwayusa.com/prod...416-taylor-box-of-20


https://www.grafs.com/retail/c...gory/categoryId/3610

http://www.qual-cart.com/400%20cal.htm

https://www.midsouthshooterssu...fle-brass/416-taylor


https://www.brownells.com/relo...case-prod105483.aspx

Good information, it takes that worry out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
Does some make 416 Taylor head stamped brass? My only concern is someone in Africa not letting my ammo in the country because the brass doesn't match the gun.

I'd probably recommend a 416 Ruger for the above reasons even though I'm still mad at Ruger for not coming out with .404 (.423 diameter) Ruger cartridge instead of the .416.

you do know there are properly labeled 416 hornady, right? and hornady makes just a few more 418 caliber bullets than 404.....

Did you mean 400 Whelen?
I like 06 based carts for Mausers.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
I am currently planning to order another custom M98 with a standard length action. Over the years I had all kind of rifles with magnum actions (too long for my taste) but also sold most of them with a Echols Legend in 458 Lott left with which I am very happy.
However, this kind of power is not always needed so I want a shorter rifle with a 22" barrel. A small scope will be added with detachable mounts. I am leaning toward the 458 Win because it might be more suited to buffalo and elephant and there are lighter bullets for PG around also. Ammunition is easily available. Nevertheless a 416 Taylor is also tempting. Basically all ammo will be handloaded. What do you think?

I definitely have "a limited experience with big boomers", but dare to write because some issues may turn around matters other than how many school days we wagged in order to go hunting

Since you live in Germany and would appear to have more interest in Africa than North America, the suitability to Africa should be tantamount to the argument.

Though, both calibres are OK for elephants, the 458WM is closer to the average ballistics of rifles recommended for the purpose over the past 100 years.

Yes, it is less powerful than the 458 Lott but, if you can get the Win mag made on a 98 Mauser action, the shorter cartridge may just save you from a fatal occurrence of African shortstroke.

The most important thing is, of course, to make sure the gunsmith ensures the magazine rails etc are spot on, so the cartridges feed every time, without fail. Use of the M98 will also give you the most respected controlled-round-feed action available, not to be confused with one American clone that can't even get the mainspring right.

The 416 Taylor may also be made down to the same length but the case has less taper, so might not feed or extract quite as well. For the Taylor to approximate 416 Rigby ballistics, it will have to be pushed beyond tropical loads, once more threatening easy extraction in hot weather.

If you were to leave the old M98 wing safety in place, it could be put in the vertical position when the trail hots up. This may look ugly but ensures you'd never take aim over 'iron' sights with the safety on. (But if you must use a small scope, I would not trust anything with a constantly centred reticle, which is almost everything these days. With the popularity of illumination and the severe inheritance laws in Germany, good old reticle-movement scopes often come up for sale on the Internet - you might find a sound Zeiss/Hensoldt or B.Nickel scope you can really depend on.)

I see that Norma load 416 Taylor solids, at least, so there are cases with the correct head stamp. But in the event your ammo supply somehow gets lost or runs out, I'd rather have a 458 WM.

Ive built two or three 416 Taylors on 98 actions, and a few 375 Taylors on 98s...Ive also built 416 Rem. and 375 H&H on 98 actions, and a couple of 416 and 375 Rugers and a 404 Ruger on 98 actions..Its not a problem, not at all, you have plenty of room and all you need to do is open them up in the rear and a tad in front..Factories and custom gun smiths been doing that for ions..BTW all the Mark 10s and their off shoots in 375 H&H are 98s opened in front only, and Ive never known of their African model having a problem, and they sell like hotcakes on AR..Last but not least many 458 Lotts and its kin are on 98 actions as well as 404 Jefferys (which I don't prefer for the Jefferys but never the less lots of them out there)

416 Ruger

Thanks Ray. Yes, it is possible to use the Mauser for long cartridges by these means and I would not want to comment on the safety of extending forward, though that would at least not need a longer bolt throw.

My point about using the 458WM because it is shorter than the Lott is not that the latter could not be used in the Mauser but that being about the same length as the 9.3x62, the 458 Win mag should fit the standard magazine without lengthening, and not require the bolt to be pulled back any farther.

I have only suffered 'African shortstroke' twice and only while I was shooting at running deer - and must admit that one of the rifles was only a Mauser in .30'06. The thing is, though, that when it happens the difference between picking up the new cartridge or not may only be a millimetre or two - but every one counts.

quote:

I have only suffered 'African shortstroke' twice

That is a shooters problem not a action problem.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I have only suffered 'African shortstroke' twice

That is a shooters problem not a action problem.

That is called Moose/Bear fever where I live!

Over the past 40 years I have used a lot of different calibers on a lot of bears and finally gave up trying to find a better round for killing big bears than the 458.
2000 fps with 500 gr loads is a relatively mild load and by using AA2230 powder 2200 fps is possible.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

I have only suffered 'African shortstroke' twice

That is a shooters problem not a action problem.

What is "a shooters problem not a action problem"? One that comes from posting feverishly or skipping school to go hunting, perhaps?

Yes, nerves probably are the largest part of failing to pull the bolt back far enough, but everything is relative. The less distance the bolt has to go, the less likely the problem will occur.

With the newer powders I might change my mind on the .458 Win. but at 83. closer to 84 I can't shoot the big bores like I used to..BTW, Ya'll will have to deal with that sooner or later..Call it too little to late, but my confession should make a lot of good folks and a couple of ass holes happy. Just kidding!!

The .416 Ruger does negate the Taylor perhaps.

We have a saying in Idaho about short stroking a rifle and that is ya can't chew gum and walk..

Yeah, Ive short stroked a gun a couple of times, but I was running to try and head of the critter at the pass..

You can use a shortened 458 Mag case AKA the 458 American...it works perfect. Downloading ALWAYS helps in some cases. I have a SMLE I rebarreled/re chambered to 458 A but used a mag reamer. The SMLE mag max length is about 3.10", so depending on the cannelure measurement I just trim the case to make all things fit. With a max load for the SMLE action ~45KPSI I get plenty of velocity, a big/heavy bullet and all the whack I need for anything on the planet...but just download slightly I get all that PLUS much less shoulder whack.

The 458 A eill work perfectly in the mauser action as eill the 416 taylor OR by adjusting all the parameters and trimming ther case to fit you can get just about whatever you want...forget about the either/or "stuff".

Enjoy

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
I am currently planning to order another custom M98 with a standard length action. Over the years I had all kind of rifles with magnum actions (too long for my taste) but also sold most of them with a Echols Legend in 458 Lott left with which I am very happy.
However, this kind of power is not always needed so I want a shorter rifle with a 22" barrel. A small scope will be added with detachable mounts. I am leaning toward the 458 Win because it might be more suited to buffalo and elephant and there are lighter bullets for PG around also. Ammunition is easily available. Nevertheless a 416 Taylor is also tempting. Basically all ammo will be handloaded. What do you think?

If you want something lighter and want a .416, I suggest the 416 Ruger over the 416 Taylor.

Very easy to do in a Standard 98 and very effective.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
I am currently planning to order another custom M98 with a standard length action. Over the years I had all kind of rifles with magnum actions (too long for my taste) but also sold most of them with a Echols Legend in 458 Lott left with which I am very happy.
However, this kind of power is not always needed so I want a shorter rifle with a 22" barrel. A small scope will be added with detachable mounts. I am leaning toward the 458 Win because it might be more suited to buffalo and elephant and there are lighter bullets for PG around also. Ammunition is easily available. Nevertheless a 416 Taylor is also tempting. Basically all ammo will be handloaded. What do you think?

If you want something lighter and want a .416, I suggest the 416 Ruger over the 416 Taylor.

Very easy to do in a Standard 98 and very effective.

I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
We have a saying in Idaho about short stroking a rifle and that is ya can't chew gum and walk..

Yeah, Ive short stroked a gun a couple of times, but I was running to try and head of the critter at the pass..

Just be glad it was not a dangerous critter running toward you !

Short stroking is primarily an issue exacerbated by stress and it can happen to anyone not intimately familiar with working their rifle under all conditions.
I assume there were many examples of people dying in combat due to short stroking their rifles that inspired Paul Mauser to redesigned his earlier push feed rifles and to introduce CRF .

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

No where near as easily. There is a great deal of difference in the amount of work required.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

No where near as easily. There is a great deal of difference in the amount of work required.

Not if he orders the action ready for 375 H&H which are readily available.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

No where near as easily. There is a great deal of difference in the amount of work required.

Not if he orders the action ready for 375 H&H which are readily available.

Then he wouldn't be ordering a Standard length 98 would he?

If he orders a Magnum length action, sure, its easy. but one of the OP's requirements was wanting to avoid magnum length actions as he felt they were too large/heavy.

Same reason I built a .416 Ruger on a Standard length 98 and sold my cz550 in .416 Rigby. One was a pig, the other light and lively.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

No where near as easily. There is a great deal of difference in the amount of work required.

Not if he orders the action ready for 375 H&H which are readily available.

Then he wouldn't be ordering a Standard length 98 would he?

If he orders a Magnum length action, sure, its easy. but one of the OP's requirements was wanting to avoid magnum length actions as he felt they were too large/heavy.

Same reason I built a .416 Ruger on a Standard length 98 and sold my cz550 in .416 Rigby. One was a pig, the other light and lively.

The opening posted stated he was “planning on ordering”. Which means he hasn’t ordered yet, so I gave him another option, if Africa is on the menu I’d wager that 416 Rem Ammo would be easier to come by if need arose while in Africa.

A 416 may expand but a 458 certainly isn't going to shrink

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


I agree. Also the 416 Rem will work out of a 98 Mauser.

No where near as easily. There is a great deal of difference in the amount of work required.

Not if he orders the action ready for 375 H&H which are readily available.

Then he wouldn't be ordering a Standard length 98 would he?

If he orders a Magnum length action, sure, its easy. but one of the OP's requirements was wanting to avoid magnum length actions as he felt they were too large/heavy.

Same reason I built a .416 Ruger on a Standard length 98 and sold my cz550 in .416 Rigby. One was a pig, the other light and lively.

Not trying to argue....

I recollect that FN offered their commercial M98 standard length “H” action with a 375 H&H length magazine (Model 400?).

Zastava currently offers their M70 action & rifle (new commercial M98 standard length action designed on the commercial FN M98 standard length “H” action) in 375 H&H.

Your Legend in .458 Lott which you like and kept, surly runs like a dream. The extra length in action should not put it in retirement status. Shorten the barrel to 22" to make it handier. Download to .458 Win. Mag, for certain hunts.
All the calibers mentioned are excellent, but the Lott takes a back seat to none of them.

Normally if you want a Mauser 98 shorter std. action, I would recommend the 9.3x62mm. Then there is a gap to have a nich with each.

I am going to answer out of the box. Just me, if I wanted another shorter heavy weight rifle. Get a double rifle. It will complement your Lott.

mlfguns,

Downloading a .458 Lott to .458 WinMag ballistics?
That is picking the fly poop out of the pepper for sure.
Especially when a .458 WinMag can be handloaded to beat a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Even keeping both cartridges to SAAMI specs, the .458 Lott beats the .458 WinMag by only 50 fps.


jaegerfrank,

If there is still a question between a .416 and a .458 ...

What I have left to load and shoot in my meager collection includes nine .416-caliber rifles in seven chamberings:
.416 Taylor X 1
.416 RemMag X 2
.416 Barnes Supreme X 1
.416 Ruger X 2
.416 Dakota X 1
.416 Rigby X 1
.416 Barrett X1

Also, eleven .458-caliber rifles, in seven chamberings, above .45-70 Govt. power level (the .45-70s are multiplying like rabbits, need a cull):
.458 B&M x 1
.458 WinMag X 3
.458 Lott X 3
.450 Barnes Supreme X 1
.450 NE 3-1/4" X 1
.450 Thumper (.458/.338 Lop'wah Magnum) X 1
.450 Dakota X 1

Without a doubt, the .458 WinMag is the most practical and useful in the widest array of applications.

Your idea of the SAAMI/CIP .458 WinMag is of course the best possible option, on a standard M98.
I have only three .458 WinMags at present, and three more planned,
including a "Jungle Carbine" on a standard M98.

If you handload you can easily find sub-MOA loads with:
Cast bullets at about 1400 fps
300-grain Barnes TTSX at 2640 fps
350-grain Barnes TSX at 2590 fps
That last load has same drop as a .375/300-grain TSX .375 H&H classic velocity load out to 300 yards.

I am working on the 400-grain, 450-grain, 500-grain, and 600-grain .458 WinMag accuracy loads now.
My latest stab with 400-grainers produced 2455 fps and 1.5-ish MOA. I will do better.

I have just returned to the .458 WinMag after about a 30-year sheepish period of fooling with all the others above, and too many more.

I have seen the light.
Even though the .458 WinMag ruled as tops until the .416 revival by the sheeple,
it is better now than it ever was, with all the powders and bullets the handloader has.

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

Rip
Jaegerfrank stated: That kind of power is not always needed. He specifically put the .458 Win. Mag. as one of his choices.
My point is. I was showing him the versatility of the Lott without having to accrue another rifle.

What! Without having to accrue another rifle!
That is no fun!

Anyone who claims the .458 Winchester Magnum is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own sheepishness.
Rip
.

Well said RIP!