quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
458 Win Mag?
Do you mean the 458 Belted Newton?

boom stick,
That is a good one ha ha.
James Watts claims to have also invented the .416 Belted Newton in the decade before the .416 Taylor.
He called it the .416 Watts Short.
The bloom was off the Belted Newton case naming by the time Chatfield-Taylor got around to his second necked-up .338 Win. Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by Forrest Halley:
So what advantage can be gained by running a .458 reamer down a Lott chamber? Can it be done? Should it be done?

Forrest Halley,

Buy a donkey for supporting THE MISSION.
That is the best thing you can do for a SAAMI .458 Lott.
Just stay off of the belt recess in the chamber, and totally clean up the SAAMI .458 Lott throat.
You thus reproduce the original .458 Lott wildcat by doing so.
It will then be able to run with the big dog, the .458 Winchester Magnum.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I don't know what the mission is, but you're welcome.

So how do I come by the right reamer? PTG has Lott reamers that I can get to spec,but what to spec? Also can this be done with the barrel in the action? I have never done one of these before. I have chamfered revolver cylinders. I'd really like to shoot my 400 grain bullets longer without the rifling pulling the bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Forrest Halley:
I don't know what the mission is, but you're welcome.

This thread is THE MISSION. Buy a donkey.

So how do I come by the right reamer? PTG has Lott reamers that I can get to spec,but what to spec?

If you have a SAAMI .458 Lott, you need a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer with a non-cutting belt,
if you want to do it yourself by hand and fool-proof it.

Jack Lott did it by hand with a T-handle when just converting a .458 Win.Mag. chamber to accept 2.8" brass.
His reamer had a bushing or a non-cutting belt,
and it blended into the existing .458 Win.Mag. throat without altering it.
It just altered the chamber to accept the longer brass without changing the existing throat beyond the end of the brass-accepting portion of the chamber.




Also can this be done with the barrel in the action?

Depending on the action, it could be done without removing the barrel if you wished. Easier with barrel off.
At your current level of understanding of this, I would encourage you to get a gunsmith to do it.

I have never done one of these before. I have chamfered revolver cylinders. I'd really like to shoot my 400 grain bullets longer without the rifling pulling the bullets.

You could get a simple throat reamer with the .458 Winchester Magnum throating, and lengthen the throat that way, all the way out to .458 Win.Mag. length, or just enough to do what you want with a certain bullet.
My preference would be have distance from breech face to end of throat the same for both 2.5" brass length or 2.8" brass length.
See gunsmith.

SAAMI reamers, belt location:



Detail showing throat length differences visible on reamers:



My term "Throat Jump" is the distance from end of brass case to the .458" diameter in the throat leade.
That is, the distance a .458-caliber cylindrical slug would travel (from leading surface seated flush with end of case) until it contacted rifling at start of minimum groove diameter.

Here is a custom reamer I had made by Dave Manson,
for the .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester-Throated.
It has a noncutting rim:



It is used to convert .45-70 single shots from 2.1" to 2.6" brass length without changing the headspacing on the existing rim,
while adding the >458 Win.Mag. leade-only throat at the end of the 2.6" brass-accepting portion of the chamber.
Similar principle.


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

With the current shortages of .458 Win.Mag. and .458 Lott brass, and with better availability of .375 H&H brass:




Whatever will fit and fire in a .458 Lott chamber
ought to work in the overall longer .458 Win.Mag.
Might leave a visible mark for chopping and trimming to 2.500".
The chamber mouth chamfer down to start of leade is at 2.520" from breech face.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Given my current level of understanding? Go slowly and use lots of cutting oil. How hard can this be with an extension and a measure of patience? Especially if it has a non cutting belt stop. I can fit a sear by hand and am comfortable doing trigger jobs.

Forrest Halley,

Ah so. You know it all.
But what other reason for asking such basic questions ?
Reviewing old material does help THE MISSION along.
New converts would do well to search and skim the previous pages of THE MISSION.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Rip,

Thanks for the information. Best of luck in your mission.

Best,

FH

The old BPCR trick of having a heavy, slow bullet and a lighter, faster "express" bullet shoot to same zero at 100 yards continues to fascinate.

My homemade 579-grain FNGC will stand in for the heavy in the .458 WIN, like the 570-grainer in the .461 Gibbs at about 1300 fps.

I have a Lee mould that casts a 375-ish grainer if Linotype is used, instead of the usual 405-gr in heavier alloy.

Blackhorn 209 loads for the 579-grainer and 375-grainer might be 1300 fps and 1800 fps respectively, at about 28,000 psi of comfort.

Then I shall try AA-2495 with the 579-grainer for starting at about 1600 fps and about 28,000 psi,
working up to about 2000 fps MV for discomfort.
For THE MISSION.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Can’t wait to see results Rip. One buffalo one impala. Or in Ky one deer one squirrel.

quote:

The old BPCR trick of having a heavy, slow bullet and a lighter, faster "express" bullet shoot to same zero at 100 yards continues to fascinate.

RIP, I believe that George Gibbs could have been the first to discover the 75% rule as we know it today.
His original #1 bullet was 480gr. which was the same weight used in the 577/450MH.
The 360gr express loading just happens to be exactly 75% of the weight of the 480 grainer.
Just as we find in regulating double rifles, a projectile of 75% with the same charge or a 75% charge with the heavier original bullet usually has a good chance of grouping.
This is good practice in a sporting rifle but I'd think that a match rifle would be more limited as to what combination shoots best at long range.
Therefore, Gibbs offered the 570gr bullet for "Match" rifles and the 540gr for "Military" match shooting.

As it happens, Holland & Holland also used the 75% rule to good effect.
Their famous advertising with ten shots in the span of a playing card was shot with their 500/450NE using 365gr bullets, not the full house 480gr loading. In an H&H rifle, the 480/365 option truly makes their doubles "double duty" firearms.

Now, I'm not sure that, in a .458, the sweet spot for the 75% rule to work is limited to the 480/360 weights or if a rifle sighted for your 579gr projectile will also shoot to the sights with a 435gr bullet without drastically altering the powder charge.
Of course, Gibbs did use differing charges for either as did H&H with their 450 but wouldn't it be great to be able to stick with one charge for two loadings and achieve acceptable hunting accuracy?

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Can’t wait to see results Rip. One buffalo one impala. Or in Ky one deer one squirrel.

Fury01,
Buy a donkey for the idea.
I might have thought of that myself,
KY deer and squirrel seasons first.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

Huvius,

Buy a donkey for that input on double-bullet regulation in a single-barrel.

75 % Rule: 360-grainer and 480-grainer with same powder charge for convergence at 100 yards.
480 X 0.75 = 360
360 X (1-1/3) = 480

63.2 % Rule: 360-grainer and 570-grainer with powder charges adjusted for convergence at 100 yards.
570 X 0.6315789 = 360
360 X 1.5833333 = 570

75 % Rule is certainly less fussy, using same powder charges for both bullets.

Maybe that 75 % rule could be close enough for use with 350-grain and 480-grain jacketed and monometal bullets ?

Or more exactly: Barnes Original 600 grains X 0.75 >>> 450 grains of TSX or Swift A-Frame.

More cast bullet combos:

540 grains X 0.75 = 405 grains exactly. Good one !

And as Huvius suggested: 579 grains X 0.75 = 434 grains.
I could try that one with the 46-425PG by casting in WW, and adding 9 grains of gas check and PC-paint to it.
Same powder charge sure makes it an easier try.
Certainly close enough for horse shoes or government work.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

In Any Shot You Want

Art Apline reports 2250 FPS at less than 58kpsi measured by piezo transducer with 465 grain bullet and 26 inch barrel.

The rest of the entry is standard 458 WM hate.

LHeym500,

Buy a donkey for that, but you got the .458 WIN Mag pressure wrong as reported in the A-Square manual.
They use CUP for the SAAMI .458 WIN Mag pressures in the A-Square testing, limited to 3.340" COL.
We can only hope A-Squares's numbers are correct for the tested data.
It is a lot better than you quoted for the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:

.458 Winchester Magnum, 26" barrel, 1:14" twist
465-grain A-Square Lion Load bullet
A-Square brass case
CCI-250 primer
H4895 77.0 grains propellant
2252 fps
44,700 CUP (equivalent to 50,600 PSI)
St.dev. was 7 fps, best of any load A-Square tested in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Now for the funny part, a couple of the .458 Lott loads, 3.600" COL:

.458 Lott, 26" barrel, 1:10" twist
465-grain A-Square Monolithic Solid bullet
A-Square brass case
CCI-250 primer
IMR-3031 77.0 grains propellant
2251 fps
58,500 PSI
St.dev. was 30 fps, lousy.

But wait ! It gets worse !

.458 Lott, 26" barrel, 1:10" twist
465-grain A-Square Monolithic Solid bullet
A-Square brass case
CCI-250 primer
IMR-3031 79.0 grains propellant (only a 2-grain increase of propellant charge versus above)
2336 fps
68,300 PSI
St.dev. was 10 fps, but who cares !?! Pressure jumped up very nearly 10,000 PSI.
"This load exceeds allowable maximum average pressure."
I.e., do not use in the .458 Lott.
Same bullet and powder charge would probably be fine as frog hair in the .458 WIN+P+L,
loaded with drop tube and compressed.

Like I said, we can only hope the reported A-Square numbers are correct,
as selectively and truthfully presented above.
Sure makes the .458 WIN look good.
(OK, I will admit that the .458 Lott is better with H4895 than with IMR-3031.)


You must have attributed a .458 Lott pressure to the .458 Win.Mag. with same bullet weight, very similar velocity
(1 fps in favor of the .458 WM), and same powder charge weight with different powders.

Shame on you for smearing the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum with a .458 Lott pressure.

I bet 77 grains of H4895 would be a super-duper load with any 450-grain bullet in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Recall that 87 grain of H4895 can be gotten into a 2.500"-long .458 WIN case with a drop tube.
That is about all that I would consider compressing under a 400-grain bullet,
not a 450-grain or 465-grain bullet, mind you.
But if 85 grains of H4895 can be used in the .458 Lott with 465-gr Monolithic (brass) Solid for 2410 fps and 62,400 PSI,
so too can it be used in the .458 WIN+P+L, to better effect.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

You are right it is CUP. iMR 3031 75 grains equals 2,256 for 56,800 CUP is the load I was referencing on page 544.

I infer he could have got 2125-2150 with the 26 inch barrel with a 500 grain bullet with safety had he wanted to.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
You are right it is CUP. iMR 3031 75 grains equals 2,256 for 56,800 CUP is the load I was referencing on page 544.

I infer he could have got 2125-2150 with the 26 inch barrel with a 500 grain bullet with safety had he wanted to.

Well, now we must poke a sleeping dog I was going to let lie.
The ".458 Winchester" section was written by Finn Aagaard, so I hate pointing out a couple of faux pas in Saint Finn's work.
Opening page says governing body is SAAMI, and pressures allowable are:
53,000 CUP
62,000 Piezo PSI (SAAMI spec is actually 60,000 PSI)

75.0 grain charge of IMR-3031 with 465-gr Lion Load bullet at COL of 3.340" or less in .458 WIN:
2256 fps and 56,800 CUP
That should have been flagged as excessive, >53,000 CUP, but it was not.

75.0 grain charge of IMR-3031 with 465-gr Monolithic Solid bullet at COL of 3.600" or less in .458 Lott:
2216 fps and 57,900 PSI.

We are back to noting that the longer 465-gr brass monometal solid bullet could be loaded to 3.600" or less in the .458 WIN+P+L and beat the .458 Lott, whatever the powder used.

The .458 WIN+P+L can give much higher velocity at same pressure,
or same velocity at much lower pressure.
Some handloaders prefer to split the baby and have slightly higher velocity at slightly lower pressure than with the red-faced SAAMI .458 Lott.
THROAT THROAT THROAT


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I guess the question becomes why did A-Square engineering team shorten the throat of the Lott from what Jack Lott had done.

I think when they lengthened the chamber on a Model 70 they lost that much throat and that was that.

I know the Manlicar (sp) and BRNO were chambered for 458 WM. Did these rifles have sort throats which may have caused Art Alpine to adopt a short throat Lott?

buy a donkey, donkey hotiy.

A-Square was a member of SAAMI.
They must be to blame for the transformation of Jack Lott's .458 Lott wildcat of 1971 into the A-Square cartridge called the .458 Lott, prior to 1998.
Probably the same one homologated in 2002 with the shortened throat.

From reading the section of the A-Square manual on throats, by Art Alphin, Art seems to have been extremely dismissive of the leade-only throats of the past.
To him, a short length of parallel-sided free bore with a short and more abrupt leade was the cat's meow.

If that is the true history of the SAAMI .458 Lott, Art was foolish.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... donkey hotiy.

?
Whatever that means, we'll take it, for THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
... donkey hotiy.

?
Whatever that means, we'll take it, for THE MISSION.
Buy a donkey.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

come on, RIP, you like a little fun.

Or should I say the man from La Mancha, Don Quixote, thank you very much, who singlehandedly brought back the age of chivalry?

DonkeyHotee, tilting at the lott of .458 WINdmills.
Sir, I resemble that remark, and there are many Pancho Sanza types bringing sanity here.
Good one. Buy a donkey for that.
Some 600-grainers and 450-grainers with the same powder charge coming soon to the local range.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I have often seen the words leade and throat used interchangeably in media.

Are the two synonymous? What does a throat due besides provide for leade?

In reading the chapter on throats more than length itself, Art Alpine seems to really hate the funnel shape of older throats found on the 458 WM.

So, why not commercialize the throat of the Lott with a long parallel throat? This would have allowed to Lott from everything I have read and observed to truly achieve wo pressure concerns 2300 FPS.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I have often seen the words leade and throat used interchangeably in media.

That is a very sad state of affairs.

Are the two synonymous?

Absolutely not.

What does a throat do besides provide for leade?

In reading the chapter on throats more than length itself, Art Alpine seems to really hate the funnel shape of older throats found on the 458 WM.

So, why not commercialize the throat of the Lott with a long parallel throat? This would have allowed to Lott from everything I have read and observed to truly achieve wo pressure concerns 2300 FPS.

Throat is an all encompassing term for the space in the chamber of the rifle that is muzzleward of the brass cartridge case
when that cartridge case is at its maximum specified length.
Throat starts where the brass case ends, and throat ends when the rifling has come to be fully formed,
which is where the cone of leade has reduced in diameter to specified bore diameter for the rifle barrel.
The leade is the "funnel" or cone at the end of the throat that transitions the bullet from free travel to fully engaged by the rifling.

Back to beginning of the throat:

1. First there must be a chamber length tolerance.
The portion of the chamber containing the brass case must be longer than the brass length maximum,
because the brass stretches in firing and must not be restricted by the reduced diameters in the throat,
so as to release the bullet without any undue pressure elevation.
The .458 WM minimum chamber length is 0.020" longer than maximum brass length, measured from the breech face.
The .458 Lott minimum chamber length is 0.010" longer.
Minimum chamber diameter at its end also must be greater than the cartridge brass maximum diameter at its end.
0.483" chamber min. and 0.481" brass max for both the .458 WM and .458 Lott.

2. Next comes the chamber mouth bevel at a 45-degree hemi-angle (90-degree-cone angle).
Here the chamber tapers down from 0.483" to become either the start of a wide-based leade of more acute angle
or to the start of the parallel-sided-free-bore: PSFB

3. PSFB is what should be referred to as "free bore" most properly.
This is usually only 0.0005" to 0.001" greater in diameter than the maximum bullet diameter,
but some "combat-worthy" cartridges may have as much as 0.002" PSFB diameter plus-tolerance.
For the .458 WM and the .458 Lott, the maximum bullet diameter is allowed to be 0.459", according to SAAMI.
Oddly, the PSFB diameter for the .458 LOTT is specified as 0.459" by SAAMI.
ZERO TOLERANCE OF PSFB IN THE .458 LOTT !!!

4. Next, a narrow-based leade is started at the end of the PSFB for the "modern" throat, usually a 1-degree to 2-degree hemi-angle.
2 degrees is what the .458 Lott leade has for a hemi-angle. That is an abrupt leade, a short one, compared to most cartridges,
where 1-degree or 1.5-degrees is more common.

4'. The leade of the .458 WM is 0.469" wide at its start, wide-based,
and its hemi-angle is 0-degrees-29'30", a smooth, gradual transition into the rifling.
There is no PSFB. Just a wide-based leade ahead of the chamber-length tolerance and chamber-mouth bevel.
Very combat-worthy.
Remarkably accurate too.
Capable of handling .461" diameter cast bullets for best smokeless load accuracy, without "nose sizing" for the .458 Lott.
Capable of loading some .458" diameter bullets to longer COL than a .458 Lott.
Pressure relieving for 3.6" COL loads capable of outdoing the .458 Lott.
Absolutely outstanding in its field, that's the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Art Alphin could certainly have done better on the throat of the .458 Lott.
He should have left it as Jack Lott created it, with leade-only remnant of the SAAMI .458 WM chamber,
simply lengthening the brass accepting portion of the chamber, without touching the throat.

Throat length may be referred to as the sum of PSFB plus leade,
forgetting the chamber length tolerance and chamber mouth bevel,
since those last two are insignificantly different for the vast majority of chamberings.
The .458 Lott has short, tight PSFB and short, abrupt, narrow-based leade: Short throated.
The .458 WM has no PSFB but a wide-based, long leade: Long throated.
Never wrong to just speak of throat length.

My favorite terminology for throat length I call "Slug Jump."
Others have referred to "free-travel of bullet" but that depends on the ogive shape of the bullet,
different for each bullet shape in the same throat.

"Slug Jump" takes all contributions to throat length into account for a given chamber.
It requires that a perfectly cylindrical bullet/slug be seated flush with the end of the case mouth at maximum brass length.
And it is calculated for the minimum groove diameter of the barrel and the bullet diameter identical to that groove diameter.
It is the distance that slug will travel before starting to engage the rifling.
It is a precisely calculated measurement, done with triggernometry,
and very close to what could be measured with careful technique and precise instruments.
I called it "Throat Jump" below,
now I call it the "Slug Jump" measurement of a throat.
It does not include the portion of the leade that tapers from groove diameter to bore diameter.




.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

The .458 Lott leade/funnel at the end of the short and tight free-bore/PSFB
is just over 4 times as obtuse as the .458 WM leade.
It makes for very little bullet travel from start of engraving to full engraving in the .458 Lott.
For the .458 WM, that length of travel from start of engraving to full engraving is about 4 times as long.

That length of leade going to 0.450" bore diameter for both .458 Lott and .458 WM,
when added to the "Slug Jump" measurement of the throats
gives the absolute maximum TOTAL THROAT LENGTH for the chambering,
where all vestiges of leade/funnel have vanished into fully-formed rifling, lands and grooves:

Total Throat Lengths:

SAAMI .458 Lott: 0.329"
SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 1.142"

So rudely abrupt in the .458 Lott.
So gracefully pressure-relieving and accuracy-inducing in the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Adding respective maximum brass length to total throat length:

Distance from breech face to bore diameter in the SAAMI .458 Lott: 3.129"

Distance from breech face to bore diameter in the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum: 3.642"


.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

I never realized this before:

The original Jack Lott .458 Lott wildcat had a chamber length of 2.870" from breech face to start of bevel-down to throat.
That would allow for 2.850" maximum brass length with a +0.020" length tolerance in chamber minimum.
Shades of the .450 Watts Magnum.

Below is the reamer drawing again.
The standard H&H-belted base length from breech face to top of belt is 0.220".
Jack's chamber reamer cuts only the portion of chamber muzzleward of belt recess, for a distance of 2.650".
0.220" + 2.650" = 2.870"
It does not alter the existing belt or throat of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum,
except where the longer brass intrudes into the chamber ahead of the belt and ends in the existing throat of the .458 WIN MAG being rechambered.
Total chamber length of the original .458 Lott wildcat is identical to the total chamber length of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:



There has been fake history in the past that Jack Lott's original wildcat goal was for 2.750" brass length and 2150 fps with 500-grain bullet.
That is only partially true from the measurements of his original reamer.
Alas, there is far more outrageous fake history surrounding the .458 Winchester Magnum.

A "Light Rifle Express" double-bullet-regulation (DBR) idea for the .458 Winchester Magnum using 75% Rule:

400-grainer at 2150 fps and 300-grainer loaded with same powder charge.

.458/ 400-gr Possibles:
Woodleigh Weldcore PP SN
Speer FNSP
Barnes Original SSSP
Barnes Buster FN
Swift AF
BB&BMT T6
Woodleigh Hydro
Thompson/Center Bone Crusher FMJ
etc.

.458/ 300-gr Possibles:
Barnes TSX-FB
Barnes TTSX-BT
Lehigh Defense Match Solid
Nosler FN Partition
Nosler Ballistic Tip
CEB ESP Raptor
Hornady HP
Sierra Pro-Hunter FN HP
etc.

8 X 8 = 64 possible DBR combos for 400-gr/300-gr at first blush.

Velocity needs to be kept below 2500 fps for the Sierra Pro-Hunter, since they vaporize at 2800 fps, perfect for "barking" squirrels.

.458 Winchester Magnum Perfection
In maxima potentia parvum spatium.
Id venit et vicit omnis.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
I never realized this before:

The original Jack Lott .458 Lott wildcat had a chamber length of 2.870" from breech face to start of bevel-down to throat.
That would allow for 2.850" maximum brass length with a +0.020" length tolerance in chamber minimum.
Shades of the .450 Watts Magnum.

Below is the reamer drawing again.
The standard H&H-belted base length from breech face to top of belt is 0.220".
Jack's chamber reamer cuts only the portion of chamber muzzleward of belt recess, for a distance of 2.650".
0.220" + 2.650" = 2.870"
It does not alter the existing belt or throat of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum,
except where the longer brass intrudes into the chamber ahead of the belt and ends in the existing throat of the .458 WIN MAG being rechambered.
Total chamber length of the original .458 Lott wildcat is identical to the total chamber length of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum:



There has been fake history in the past that Jack Lott's original wildcat goal was for 2.750" brass length and 2150 fps with 500-grain bullet.
That is only partially true from the measurements of his original reamer.
Alas, there is far more outrageous fake history surrounding the .458 Winchester Magnum.

The original Lott or Jack Lott, Lott was bottled necked!? Am I seeing right?

No I don't think it was bottlenecked, you are seeing the leade or throat after the casing I believe in the original drawing .

Don’t let RIP see that drawing. A 458 Lott with 0.575” lead would blow his 200+ page hypothesis right out of the water. Remove your post and run for the hills or ye shalt feel the wrath o’ RIP!

Checking out this post every two months, or so, is entertaining. BTW, I’m building another 458 Winnie in takedown form, yay! No more than 2100fps with a 500gr needed, and I’m confident it’s safe.

Buy a monkey .

RC

Negatory there Wildcatter. That drawing is just another piece of evidence that the current .458 Lott SAAMI is what it is BECAUSE of the change of throat from the .458WM is started from. RIP has said that repeatedly in the thread.
We were and are here to defend the 458WM in a factual manner, destroying the myths as they come. That is the Mission.

quote:

Originally posted by machinistbutler:
No I don't think it was bottlenecked, you are seeing the leade or throat after the casing I believe in the original drawing .

Thank you.

It would help immensely if people would read the whole thread rather than "jumping in" here and there, and out of context making false assumptions about RIP's work!

In preaching/teaching for over 63 years I usually do so in a progressive theme or "series". I also do that in blog writing. Most who follow them understand that not everything I say, know or believe is stated in any single one of them -- so it is with this thread.

It's like some people taking a single verse out of Scripture and building a false theological assumption from it -- a text without a context is a pretext for a contrary argument! (See Jesus in a contest with Satan who uses Scripture as a means to tempt him: Gospel of Matthew chapter 4, verses 1 - 10) Such being a dishonest use of the Bible -- of which every part has a context.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Negatory there Wildcatter. That drawing is just another piece of evidence that the current .458 Lott SAAMI is what it is BECAUSE of the change of throat from the .458WM is started from. RIP has said that repeatedly in the thread.
We were and are here to defend the 458WM in a factual manner, destroying the myths as they come. That is the Mission.

Exactly!!

The entire point of the thread is that the SAAMI Lott isn't the Lott that Jack Built due to shortening the Jack Built rifle's throat. The Jack Built rifle had the same 458 WM throat.

Can't jump into the middle of the convo out of context.

quote:

Originally posted by machinistbutler:
No I don't think it was bottlenecked, you are seeing the leade or throat after the casing I believe in the original drawing .

Buy a donkey to machinistbutler for guiding LHeym500.
That radius at the chamber-mouth of the wildcat .458 Lott would create a "half-Weatherby" curve leading into existing leade-only throat of the .458 WM.
Not much different from the usual "45-degree bevel-down" on most cartridges.

Wildcatter,
Buy a donkey for the humor, especially the part of it about buying monkeys.

quote:

Originally posted by Wildcatter:
Don’t let RIP see that drawing. A 458 Lott with 0.575” lead would blow his 200+ page hypothesis right out of the water. Remove your post and run for the hills or ye shalt feel the wrath o’ RIP!

Checking out this post every two months, or so, is entertaining. BTW, I’m building another 458 Winnie in takedown form, yay! No more than 2100fps with a 500gr needed, and I’m confident it’s safe.

Buy a monkey .

RC

That original .458 Lott wildcat reamer did not reach to the end of the SAAMI .458 WM chamber:

Distance from breech face to bore diameter:


Wildcat .458 Lott chamber clean-up-reamer: 2.870" + .575" = 3.445"
SAAMI .458 Lott chamber reamer: 3.129"
SAAMI .458 WinM chamber reamer: 3.642"

Astonishing, eh?
The end of Jack Lott's reamer did not clean up the very end of the SAAMI .458 WinM leade,
which remained pristine to bless the bullet just before it became fully engaged by the rifling,
after propulsion from the initial portion of the adulterated chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Negatory there Wildcatter. That drawing is just another piece of evidence that the current .458 Lott SAAMI is what it is BECAUSE of the change of throat from the .458WM is started from. RIP has said that repeatedly in the thread.
We were and are here to defend the 458WM in a factual manner, destroying the myths as they come. That is the Mission.

AMEN !

The SAAMI .458 Lott is to the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum as Satan is to Jesus:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
... It's like some people taking a single verse out of Scripture and building a false theological assumption from it -- a text without a context is a pretext for a contrary argument! (See Jesus in a contest with Satan who uses Scripture as a means to tempt him: Gospel of Matthew chapter 4, verses 1 - 10) Such being a dishonest use of the Bible -- of which every part has a context.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

AMEN and HALLELUJAH !

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
The entire point of the thread is that the SAAMI Lott isn't the Lott that Jack Built
due to shortening the Jack Built rifle's throat.
The Jack Built rifle had the same 458 WM throat.

The Prodigal Missionary has returned.
Buy a donkey for that, Todd Williams.