The Heym barrel contour thread is getting to be a hoot. "Ballistic masturbation" according to Atkinson.

Minimum .458 WIN barrel contour:

The CZ .458 WIN barrel is actually 0.459" in groove diameter, so if it is 0.670" diameter at 25" length,
the wall thickness at the muzzle (under the barrel-band for frontsight) is:
(0.670" - 0.459")/2 = 0.1055"
The SIGARMS, Prechtl-actioned Magnum M98 .450 Dakota has about the same barrel wall thickness in the grooves at same 25" barrel length: 0.1055"

I have found accuracy to be excellent with that sort of .458-caliber barrel.
Might be perfect for a short-barreled "stalking .458 WIN" with muzzle diameter about 0.700" to 0.710" at 20" length
Especially fun with light bullets.
Able to handle the heavies in a pinch.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
... I see now your comments in red and guess that if mounts are made for commercial Mausers, the holes for military ones might be in the same spot, though provision for the clip boss might vary this. However, now you mention it, the Tasco' bridge over the boss does look a bit like the one on Leupold's STD, so maybe there is a chance they would be similar. I think the STD base I have on another FN Mauser has only one screw at the back, too.

I have a Modelo Argentino .338-06 that has one of those three-hole (one hole at rear of base, two at front), one-piece, Leupold bases for the JR-type rings,
which at least has windage adjust on the rear ring.
I have left it alone, have not got a DSS-2PP figured out for that one yet!
A recoil stop on the bottom of a one-piece Picatinny rail, J-B WELD, and 8x40 screws would make that solitary rear base screw less of a worry.

I suppose the hole spacing on the milsurp Mausers could be variable, depending on what jig the gunsmith used.
Good luck getting yours sorted out.
Maybe you can design and fabricate one for a milsurp, three-hole Mauser, similar to the drawing in your book?

Hey, lookie here:

Are there two holes at the rear of this base?
More than one way to skin a cat:



https://www.emma-rifles.co.uk/...-piece-bridge-mount/

"HILVER / BURRIS / TASCO ONE PIECE BRIDGE MOUNT.

Stamped AUSTRALIA and 1954 this is to take windage adjustable rings. Unfortunately no box or other clue as to the exact action this is designed for. Looking at the screw positions it is similar to an Enfield rail but the action profile is different and the holes are slightly out of line. I suspect it may be from an underlever action (?) with the high recess / cut out to the back of the 2 rear action screw holes which are approx. 10mm centres. The two smaller front mount fixing holes are actually off set to the left hand side and approx. 7mm apart. Google brings up several possible options, one of which is an Enfield No4 MK1. If the base is ‘reversed’ this may well fit but at this moment in time I do not have a rifle in stock to check against. ANY ACCURATE information on these or any other mounts is always welcome. If anyone has an original suppliers action / mounts list a copy would be wonderful! "

Thanks RIP, I've had a look back at that Tasco mount base and see it does have two holes at the back but in line behind the step to get over the clip boss, rather than side by side as in your picture.

The bad news may be that the rifle could have been sold long ago without the ad being taken down. My interest in it was mainly because any value as a collectible had been destroyed by minimal sporterising, leaving the remaining stock bulbous as made, so I could sculpt it into a shape analogous with classic sporters. Whatever the metalurgy of the FN Mausers, they had cleaner wood than the German ones (and walnut rather than beech), with no cut-outs or furniture in ugly places.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Shop mule!
Ready to go sheep hunting or paper punching with the .458 WIN, this scope weighs only 8.5 oz.
The 4 Weaver rings and the flip-up lens covers add only 6 more ounces:



Phil's .458 WIN Ol'Ugly used 2 Weaver rings with the 6.5-ounce 2.5X20 Leupold.
4 of those "steel-strap" rings ought to be able to hold onto an 8.5-ounce scope.

Rip ...

I gotta say that set-up looks kinda neat, maybe reminding me of bogies on a box car.

This outlook of using simple, even multiple, mounts, super-strong because they have no adjustments, may redeem the image-movement concept to some extent. Whatever else, they have a kind of suspension and if it breaks down should be easier to fix because the guts can just be pulled out from the back.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I gotta say that set-up looks kinda neat, maybe reminding me of bogies on a box car.

Great idea: The NITRO EXPRESS FREIGHT TRAIN MOUNT aka DSS-2PP

This outlook of using simple, even multiple, mounts, super-strong because they have no adjustments, may redeem the image-movement concept to some extent. Whatever else, they have a kind of suspension and if it breaks down should be easier to fix because the guts can just be pulled out from the back.

Or, the two or three hundred dollar scope is simply swapped out for the identically mounted backup if it goes tits up.
If it is a Nikon or a Leupold, broken scope goes back to them for guts-repair or replacement of scope.

I will consider any scope a success if it can survive 400 rounds of .458 WIN.
My first Nikon SLUGHUNTER 3-9x40mm worked perfectly for over 400 rounds,
including the period of shooting when the thin rubber-ring gasket holding the objective lens inside the bell started extruding,
held zero.
Nikon replaced the discontinued SLUGHUNTER with the new version: Prostaff P3 SHOTGUN 3-9x40mm BDC, parallaxed for 100 yards.

The .458 Winchester Magnum has a new aka:

.458 WIN Nitro Express Freight Train

Rip ...

What's the FoV (say at 4x) and field blending like in those scopes, RIP? I've only got a Monarch 4-16x42 and with that you'd not only have the train but the tunnel, too.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I gotta say that set-up looks kinda neat, maybe reminding me of bogies on a box car.

Great idea: The NITRO EXPRESS FREIGHT TRAIN MOUNT aka DSS-2PP

This outlook of using simple, even multiple, mounts, super-strong because they have no adjustments, may redeem the image-movement concept to some extent. Whatever else, they have a kind of suspension and if it breaks down should be easier to fix because the guts can just be pulled out from the back.

Or, the two or three hundred dollar scope is simply swapped out for the identically mounted backup if it goes tits up.
If it is a Nikon or a Leupold, broken scope goes back to them for guts-repair or replacement of scope.

I will consider any scope a success if it can survive 400 rounds of .458 WIN.
My first Nikon SLUGHUNTER 3-9x40mm worked perfectly for over 400 rounds,
including the period of shooting when the thin rubber-ring gasket holding the objective lens inside the bell started extruding,
held zero.
Nikon replaced the discontinued SLUGHUNTER with the new version: Prostaff P3 SHOTGUN 3-9x40mm BDC, parallaxed for 100 yards.

The .458 Winchester Magnum has a new aka:

.458 WIN Nitro Express Freight Train

Rip ...

Glad to hear that the Slughunter is now 100-yard parallax. I might get one for the grandkids' 308Win. 3-9 would work great on any rifle purposed for 0 to 400 yards. It currently has a 2-7 Prostaff, which could become an unused backup. Nikon are still great/reliable for the money in my book.

Y'all have been active in mission advancement. I was looking at the Spruce King yesterday or the day before.
Since we are on the topic of low powered scopes for the 458. I need to send the 2.5 power Burris Fullfield that is on it off for the final time . Something jumped the tracks inside it and it won't adjust horizontally. Its a foot to the right at 30 feet now.
When that scope comes back it will be relegated to a 22 rf.
I hate to copycat Phil but I'm thinking of using his idea of a pic rail inletted under the barrel in the forend of the stock. Use it as a base for a light.
I also need to construct a butt plate to mount a recoil pad to. Would love to find a stainless steel banded front sight base for it. And put a peep sight on the rear. That would solve my scope problems.

Whoa mr. quoter of slander and misplaced values, on your page 143 here I wrote good things on the 458 Win. and you responded, now you turned coated on my fig leaf, a pox on you! You have no

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Y'all have been active in mission advancement. I was looking at the Spruce King yesterday or the day before.
Since we are on the topic of low powered scopes for the 458. I need to send the 2.5 power Burris Fullfield that is on it off for the final time . Something jumped the tracks inside it and it won't adjust horizontally. Its a foot to the right at 30 feet now.
When that scope comes back it will be relegated to a 22 rf.
I hate to copycat Phil but I'm thinking of using his idea of a pic rail inletted under the barrel in the forend of the stock. Use it as a base for a light.
I also need to construct a butt plate to mount a recoil pad to. Would love to find a stainless steel banded front sight base for it. And put a peep sight on the rear. That would solve my scope problems.

Sorry to hear of your troubles CTF. PM me your address and I'll send you a copy of my book, if you haven't already got one.

It won't fix your scope but might explain where it and the state of the art have gone wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
What's the FoV (say at 4x) and field blending like in those scopes, RIP? I've only got a Monarch 4-16x42 and with that you'd not only have the train but the tunnel, too.

Train and tunnel. Cute.
The tunnel is a primary parallax reducer.
Field blending? I am not that picky as long as I can get a peep at the target and the rifle stays zeroed.
This is an R&D setup afterall, even if it is a Nitro Express Freight shop mule.
I will try to get that FOV by eyeball if I cannot find the claimed Leupold specs on the old M8 6x36mm Compact.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

Glad to hear that the Slughunter
reincarnated as Prostaff P3 Shotgun
is now 100-yard parallax. I might get one for the grandkids' 308Win. 3-9 would work great on any rifle purposed for 0 to 400 yards. It currently has a 2-7 Prostaff, which could become an unused backup. Nikon are still great/reliable for the money in my book.

Yep, Nikon Prostaff P3 Shotgun 3-9x40mm with BDC is best all-purpose scope for the money.
Just have to pay for that long eye relief with lesser FOV and reduced internal adjustment range, the latter might be why it is so rugged?
And short mounting length might require extension rings, or extension base.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Y'all have been active in mission advancement. I was looking at the Spruce King yesterday or the day before.
Since we are on the topic of low powered scopes for the 458. I need to send the 2.5 power Burris Fullfield that is on it off for the final time . Something jumped the tracks inside it and it won't adjust horizontally. Its a foot to the right at 30 feet now.
When that scope comes back it will be relegated to a 22 rf.

I have one of those that I have not busted ... yet.

I hate to copycat Phil but I'm thinking of using his idea of a pic rail inletted under the barrel in the forend of the stock. Use it as a base for a light.

Me too!

I also need to construct a butt plate to mount a recoil pad to. Would love to find a stainless steel banded front sight base for it. And put a peep sight on the rear. That would solve my scope problems.

Or use a forend tip stud instead of the barrel band for sling. I will be planning to do both a forend tip Picatinny and swivel stud.
Another R&D project for Bubba Gunwerkes.
A flashlight for recoil reducer.
A place to hang a laser too.

Rip ...

Thank you Ray Atkinson for supporting THE MISSION.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Whoa mr. quoter of slander and misplaced values, on your page 143 here I wrote good things on the 458 Win. and you responded, now you turned coated on my fig leaf, a pox on you! You have no

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Wow 143 posts on a dead subject..Im not a particular fan of the 458 but its probably killed more elephants than RAID has killed bugs,

RAID and BLACK FLAG combined!

that's worth more than 10,000 posts me thinks!

Atkinson,

Thanks for coming to play.
This is the .458 WIN Love Fest, may never end.
Sort of like "Mighty Four Five Eight, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways ..."
New frontiers in handloading here.
Just ask Bob Mitchell, if you don't mind listening to someone younger than you.

Rip ...

The AA-2460 8-pounder arrived from MidwayUSA yesterday.
Free shipping and no hazmat fee in the AUGUSTPOWDER promotion.
This will be for tropical 480-grainers (DGX and cast) and 545-grainers (cast).

And I have about 3-dozen sets of old Weaver rings, from a former life.
At least 3 more quadruple freighter "bogie" sets of low rings.

Rip ...

Will passenger trains have to get off the line when they pass?

I don’t remember, has anyone tried giving the “inferior” Lott the 458 Win Mag throat?

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Will passenger trains have to get off the line when they pass?

Yes, if the .458 Lott is a passenger train.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
I don’t remember, has anyone tried giving the “inferior” Lott the 458 Win Mag throat?

boom stick,

This has been thoroughly discussed in previous pages.
The original method of Jack Lott was to re-chamber his .458 WIN with a reamer that blended into the existing SAAMI .458 WIN throat.
That is the best of all possible worlds.
Just tacking the full length of .458 WIN throat onto the end of the short-throated SAAMI .458 Lott
is a waste except for use in a single shot where you could load the COL to 4.080" with a 500-grain TSX crimped on the last groove.
Any SAAMI .458 Lott can be made better by running a SAAMI .458 WIN reamer into it, stopping with no belt cutting.
Thus you would get a .458 LOTT like Jack built.

Rip ...

Does anyone know the throat dimensions that Buhmiller used?

I have traced the origins of the .458 WIN back to the Golden Age of the Flintlock.



1956: Winchester Arms: .458 Winchester Magnum, a short magnum, belted, non-rebated rim, long leade, fits in any standard or magnum action,
and betters the .450 NE ballistics at modest pressures, below 60,000 psi. Perfection is as perfection does.

1949: James Watts: .450 Watts Magnum, unknown throat, fantastical performance claims suggest long-leade throat.
Inspiration for the .450 Watts Magnum:


1912: Winchester: .46-50-400 W.C.F. was an experimental cartridge for a Model 1886, lever-action rifle, that was never marketed.
Bullet was .458-caliber, 400 grains, copper-jacketed and plain lead. Case was rimmed, bottle-necked.
The final version case length was 2.406". It did go to H. P. White for pressure testing in 2.3" case-length form.
Bombed out for some reason.

1911: Mauser: 10.75x68mm Mauser, .423-caliber, short magnum, long leade throat,
it could have been much better if heavier bullets had been factory loaded.

1909: Westley Richards: .425 WR, first true "Short Magnum," a .435-caliber with long leade throat, doomed by the shortcut of rebated rim.
It could have been a great one but became just a me-too "Fredo" of the bolt-action DGR family.

1905: Holland & Holland: Belted case of the .400/.375 Belted Nitro Express, then .375 H&H Magnum of 1912,
and honorable mention for pre-1900 use of "coned-up breech" for long-leade throating,
to help their old BP single-shot rifles transition to NFBPE/Cordite loads

1905: William Jackman Jeffery: The .404 Jeffery Rimless Nitro Express (eventually standardized as .423-caliber and 400 grains)
is the first bolt-action, magazine-repeater "big-bore" truly suitable for all game.
Could be built in an opened-up standard action, best in a magnum action.
If not for the .458 Winchester Magnum, it would still be King.

1905: Mauser: 9.3x62mm Mauser of .365-caliber is truly a transitional cartridge,
stretching to big-bore performance by way of its long-leade throat,
the mark of excellence.

1897: John Rigby: .450 S. Rigby "Nitro Express" with .458/480-grain bullet at 2150 fps, in a DOUBLE RIFLE,
obsoleting the flinch inducing dumbbells of yore. The SMOKELESS transition is complete now, even with a big bore,
not just with military small bores. The big-bore bolt actions are yet to be devised.
Jeffery may have beaten Rigby in the Cordite Race by a few months in 1897
with the .400 S. Jeffery, now called the .450/.400 NE 3", the first ever "Nitro Express" cartridge,
but it was done with a much easier to proof single-shot.
The first Rigby failed set of barrels sent to proof on April 3, 1897 weighed 5 pounds, 3 ounces, made by the Henry Barrel Co.
A second unspecified maker's set of barrels and two more Henry-made sets of barrels also were wasted, bulged or burst.
The fourth set (by Henry) had gained almost a pound of weight, compared to the first. It tipped the scales at 6 pounds, 1 once.
It failed too, on September 20, 1897.
Rigby turned to a specialty steel maker, Sanderson Brothers of Sheffield, England, for his fifth set of barrels.
That company was founded in 1776 in England and opened their subsidiary operations in Syracuse, New York, USA, in 1876.
What a coincidence. Rigby was founded in 1775. The USA declared independence in 1776, and shares centennials with this
"Crucible Steel" company. This American subsidiary was formed to beat the tariffs of the day, exists to this day,
and is said to have been first to create steel alloys containing vanadium and molybdenum, by golly!
Any who, the fifth set of barrels were of crucible steel by Sanderson Brothers, shaped up by the Rigby barrel maker Mr. Heasman,
and survived proof on November 20, 1897.
They were also slimmed back down to a lithe 5 pounds, 10 ounces, for the joined, two-barrel set, and did not break a sweat in proof.
Dimensions of the individual barrels of the matched pair, diameters:
Breech: 1.038"
At 3" length: 0.918"
At 6" length: 0.824"
At 26" length, muzzle or "nose" diameter: 0.618"
Quite the pair, made of crucible steel and sex appeal.
Double rifles will never be of made of twisted steel and sex appeal thereafter.



Above is a page from Rigby's barrel record book. Barrel set #2594 above was the survivor.
It and the action it was on became a .450 Special Rigby.
This first ever ".450 Nitro Express" double rifle by Rigby was their "Best" quality, serial number 16589,
and was not delivered to good customer Mr. W. C. Wright until October 13, 1898.
The second .450 S. Rigby, according to an article by Terry Wieland, from whence this history is drawn
("The Crucible, Barreling the First .450 Nitro Express" from RIFLE magazine, July-August 2011, pp. 68-75),
was a Rigby "Class C" boxlock.
"Those barrels were made of Sanderson steel but were 28 inches long and weighed a massive 7 pounds, 2 ounces."
That is a pound and a half heavier than the first surviving set of barrels (5 pounds, 10 ounces), made of the same steel.
But I repeat myself, as I paraphrase Terry Wieland, an author whom I now hold in high esteem, despite his affinity for the .458 Lott.
I have forgiven him.

1884: Winchester: .45-200-500 Winchester Experimental. This was done for the U.S. Government's experimental "Sharpshooters" rifle.
.458-caliber/500-grain bullet in a 3.15" bottle-necked, rimmed case with very short neck, holding 200 grains of BP.
A cartridge in need of the smokeless powder revolution for sure, before its time, before Ed Weatherby's time.

1881: George Gibbs: By that year both the .461 Gibbs No. 1 and No. 2 have been consummated, with .452-bore and .461-groove.
Bullets of 480 grains, 540 grains, and 570 grains are used in the various loadings.
By 1890 it has become the BP darling of British matches and kills elephants for Selous, using 540-grain hardened lead bullets at modest, BP, velocity.
Cures his flinch too.

1875-1880: John Rigby: .450-2.6" Match: John Rigby grudgingly gives up the muzzleloader for a breechloader, picking the .450-2.6" Match cartridge
with heavy, paper-patched bullets, copied from the obsolete .45-100 Sharps 2.6" Straight,
that lived as a factory load only from 1876 to 1877 in the USA, with paper-patched 550-grain bullets.
This is the rimmed/fraternal ballistic twin of the almighty .458 WIN.

1871-1873: Military adoption of .450-bore, centerfire, breech-loader, in UK first, then USA, with .577/450 Martini-Henry and .45/70 Government respectively.
At least the Americans held off until they had drawn brass cases from the get go.

1866: Sylvester H. Roper: .40-2&7/16" Roper. This rifle cartridge utilized the first belted case design, but made of steel, re-loadable for sure!
Patented April 10, 1866 (U.S. no. 53,881). H&H would later re-invent the belted case, in brass, sometime in the next century.

1865: Alexander Henry: .450-3&1/4" Boxer-Henry cartridge with .45-cal/480-grain bullet and 3.25" case length, coiled brass and paper wrappers,
etc., at least it was a centerfire. This long, straight case eventually morphed into the shorter, bottle-necked military cartridge,
using Henry's rifling, in the American Peabody action improved by Mr. Martini. Poor Peabody got no respect in the basic design's name.
It also took a second road to become the .450-3&1/4" BPE and NFBPE and finally the .450-3&1/4" NE.

1864-1865: .44-55-500 U.S. Experimental: During the Civil War U.S. Ordnance, Remington, Winchester, et al
are experimenting with various DRAWN BRASS, rimfire cartridges using .450-.460 caliber bullets up to 500-grain weight.
This was nipped in the bud by centerfire developments started in the UK, where they never developed any rimfire rifle cartridges.

Dec. 21, 1860: John Rigby and J. Needham "were granted English patent # 3140 for a cartridge case formed of thin sheet metal with the edges overlapping and providing at the rear with an internal flange expanded by
forcing in a wad." (ibid Hoyem below) Despite his pioneering of breechloader ammunition, John Rigby clung bitterly to his muzzleloading target rifles until 1874 when his mind was expanded by centerfire shooters at Creedmoor on Long Island, NY, USA.

1860: George Henry Daw: Introduced a centerfire cartridge to England. According to George A. Hoyem, Volume Three, page XII, this was "based on the ideas of the French
inventors, Clement Pottett and Eugene Schneider, but it was used primarily for shot cartridges.
BTW, this Mr. Daw, was the gunmaker who built the the Jacob's Rifle prototypes and later models in the 1850's and later. General Jacobs died in 1858. What a character he was!
That Jacob's Rifle was a doozie! A percussion, muzzleloader, military double rifle with 24" barrels of 1:30" twist,
firing a .524-caliber, 2.5-calibers-long, pointy, 4-finned bullet fitted to 4-groove rifling.
Explosive shells were sighted to 1200 yards! Daws later offered sporting models of this rifle.
Some of them ended up for sale at Bannerman's in the 20th Century, touted as "elephant rifles!"

1854-1865: Sir Joseph Whitworth is King of Rifles: Muzzle-loading, percussion .45 Whitworth Hexagonal then .45 Whitworth Cylindrical,
with bullets of 530-grain and 480-grain weight show superiority of the .45-bore with conical bullet and fast twist.
Billboard-sized targets are no longer safe at 2000 yards.
Later on Sir Joseph Whitworth introduced "compressed steel" and only then did "fluid steel" begin to replace Damascus steel.
But not even "Whitworth Compressed Steel" was good enough to allow Rigby to survive proof of a double rifle for the first .450 "Special" Rigby,
"Nitro Express" in 1897.

1847-1851: Switzerland: They are the ones who start the caliber-reduction arms race with percussion muzzleloader experiments
yielding a tiny .407" bore with a patched conical bullet of up to 287 grains!
That was the most accurate and lowest-trajectory muzzleloader until Joseph Whitworth.
It was said to have been inspired by the KENTUCKY RIFLE, the first "Express Rifle."

Circa 1770: Usually .40-.50 caliber flintlock, Kentucky Rifles ranged from .35-60 caliber originally.
Many originals got rebored to larger size to freshen them up after years of excellent service on varmints.
Some Englishers reporting back on the deadly sniper rifles of the American Revolutionary War claimed 30 to 60 balls to the pound.
The .458-caliber is 52 balls to the pound, last time I pondered that.
Yep, the average Kentucky Rifle was a .45-cal.
That is where it all started, with the .45-cal revolutionary rifle.
It was a German Jaeger transformed in Pennsylvania to become The Kentucky Rifle.
It is official, Kentucky has whipped Pennsylvania in every shoot-off tournament over rights to the name,
popularized by the second war with the Britishers in 1812, where we whipped'em again.

Rip ...

Seeing you do mention the .577/.450, is it worth mentioning that it actually struck a blow against the future 458WM in that the Poms banned the .450 bore in certain game-rich colonies because of the fear of rebels getting hold of it and seeking ammo. This caused the Brits to make their elephant numbers any other number, to wit .425, .465, .470, .475 etc, some of which are still made today.


Thinking about this now, I wonder if any of those bans were still in place in 1956 and whether they might have held the newcomer back.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
Does anyone know the throat dimensions that Buhmiller used?

That would be very interesting if we could uncover that bit of techniciana.
Many stones yet to be turned for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Seeing you do mention the .577/.450, is it worth mentioning that it actually struck a blow against the future 458WM in that the Poms banned the .450 bore in certain game-rich colonies because of the fear of rebels getting hold of it and seeking ammo. This caused the Brits to make their elephant numbers any other number, to wit .425, .465, .470, .475 etc, some of which are still made today.


Thinking about this now, I wonder if any of those bans were still in place in 1956 and whether they might have held the newcomer back.

Reading some old magazines from the 1950's about "shikari-ing" in India, some of the authors would say to check with local authorities about the .45-cal ban.
Old laws might have still been on the books in some localities.
Maybe the British infrastructure died a slow and spotty death in India?

Seems not to have been a problem anywhere in Africa by the 1950's that I have heard of.
Made the .450-bore look like a new thing.
The latest and greatest, the new whiz-bang .458 WIN, the rightful King sweeping out all the pretenders.

Rip ...

RIP, can you explain the failure of the 425WR's rebated rim, please, just to keep the conversation going?

It has occurred to me to convert an old FN Mauser to this calibre, to get something bigger without opening up the bolt face. Atkinson doesn't think the action strong enough for the belted magnums and I was hoping the 425 might ride the razor's edge, somehow.

sambarman338,

Leupold Compact 6X:
True 6X magnification
FOV 16.0 feet at 100 yards
Eye relief 3.9 inches
Length 10.7 inches
Weight 8.5 ounces
Tube diameter 1.0 inch

Yes I get the Express Freight Train and the Tunnel.
She'll be comin'round the mountain when she comes.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
RIP, can you explain the failure of the 425WR's rebated rim, please, just to keep the conversation going?

They work OK if they are WR best quality with the spring-loaded magazine side-clips, at the rear of the feed rails,
and if they have straight-stack, in-line feed. See the entire Jack Lott article on page 66 of this thread. Here is one page of it :



http://forums.accuratereloadin...43/m/4821083332/p/66

On the next page of that article, Lott described his version of the .425 WR.
He had an extra Mauser bolt that was fitted up to accept the .404 Jeffery rim,
and he could switch out the original bolt for rebated rim.
Voila! The Ugly Duckling .425 WR becomes a Beautiful Swan.
Jack made brass for the non-rebated ".425 WR-Lott" from .404 Jeffery brass,
just shortened and sized in .425 WR dies, and fire-formed.

It has occurred to me to convert an old FN Mauser to this calibre, to get something bigger without opening up the bolt face. Atkinson doesn't think the action strong enough for the belted magnums and I was hoping the 425 might ride the razor's edge, somehow.

There must be some misunderstanding over Atkinson's meaning.
The FN Mauser M98 is absolutely, perfectly suitable for an H&H belted magnum, especially one that fits inside a COL of 3.4".
I have one that uses Duane Wiebe's .500 Jeffery bottom metal with 3.5" length inside the box.
and the bolt face was opened up to the .338 Lapua Magnum/.416 Rigby rim size.
It is a .510/.338 Lapua Magnum Improved, aka .500 Bateleur.



This rifle was originally a Herter's .30-06:



It could easily be turned into a .500 Jeffery, if I ever get stupid.
What you need is a .458 WIN.
Read in the Lott article about how many of the the old PH's rebarreled/re-bored their game department discarded .425 WR's.
Even Finn Aagaard had an old original Westley Richards .425 WR rebarreled to .458 WIN.

What goes for the FN Mauser goes for the Whitworth Mark X Mauser.

Hey, maybe I could try that drop box on the .458 WINRuger Mark X?
Make the .458 WINRuger COL 3.5", open up the action by 0.1".

I could also use 4 Weaver rings with that Nikon 1.5-5x20mm on Bobbarrella's DSS-2PP,
thus moving it forward on the rifle for better eye relief, and tunnel-peeping pleasure/parallax prevention.

The .458 WIN is where it's at.
It is THE happening thing, since 1956.
If you don't have one, that comes first.
The rest is just child's play.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP, that's a bummer, man. I don't suppose a stronger spring or a dob of weld at the front of the follower might help that problem. By this I mean that the spring probably brings up the cartridge but is too weak to stop the round dipping a bit as the bolt pushes it forward.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Y'all have been active in mission advancement. I was looking at the Spruce King yesterday or the day before.
Since we are on the topic of low powered scopes for the 458. I need to send the 2.5 power Burris Fullfield that is on it off for the final time . Something jumped the tracks inside it and it won't adjust horizontally. Its a foot to the right at 30 feet now.
When that scope comes back it will be relegated to a 22 rf.

I have one of those that I have not busted ... yet.

I hate to copycat Phil but I'm thinking of using his idea of a pic rail inletted under the barrel in the forend of the stock. Use it as a base for a light.

Me too!

I also need to construct a butt plate to mount a recoil pad to. Would love to find a stainless steel banded front sight base for it. And put a peep sight on the rear. That would solve my scope problems.

Or use a forend tip stud instead of the barrel band for sling. I will be planning to do both a forend tip Picatinny and swivel stud.
Another R&D project for Bubba Gunwerkes.
A flashlight for recoil reducer.
A place to hang a laser too.

Rip ...

I have done the angled sling stud in the friend tip before. It's better than getting the skin peeled off part of my left index finger. But I prefer a barrel band. I may just JB Weld a solder on one on and see how it holds up.

Thinking of that FN Mauser conversion to 425WR, RIP, I forgot to mention the rifle I was thinking of was the 1952 military conversion by Famage, which has a groove down the upper-rear of the front receiver ring, and that would not make it any stronger. Ray might also claim that the Mark X's Zastava action is stronger than the Belgian ones.

I wonder if a slight protrusion, maybe a pop-rivet, in the front end of the magazine box might stop the follower dipping as the last cartridge is pushed forward? It would need to allow the follower to ride past it on the way down and not impede bullets coming up, but fix the underside of the follower at the height it reaches beneath the last round, as the bolt comes closes.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

Leupold Compact 6X:
True 6X magnification
FOV 16.0 feet at 100 yards
Eye relief 3.9 inches
Length 10.7 inches
Weight 8.5 ounces
Tube diameter 1.0 inch

Yes I get the Express Freight Train and the Tunnel.
She'll be comin'round the mountain when she comes.

Rip ...

Yes, the Leupold blending is probably OK. For some reason I was not looking at the photo when I asked but your text in the last post mentioning use of Nikon scopes.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
I have done the angled sling stud in the friend tip before. It's better than getting the skin peeled off part of my left index finger. But I prefer a barrel band. I may just JB Weld a solder on one on and see how it holds up.

It will work great.
I have done that with Uncle Mike's split/two-piece barrel band sling swivel on a CZ .458 WIN.
Never budged.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thanks RIP, that's a bummer, man. I don't suppose a stronger spring or a dob of weld at the front of the follower might help that problem. By this I mean that the spring probably brings up the cartridge but is too weak to stop the round dipping a bit as the bolt pushes it forward.

No, gotta have the spring-loaded magazine/feed rail clips, no matter the follower spring strength. It is the everely rebated rim that is the problem.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Thinking of that FN Mauser conversion to 425WR, RIP, I forgot to mention the rifle I was thinking of was the 1952 military conversion by Famage, which has a groove down the upper-rear of the front receiver ring, and that would not make it any stronger.
That is just a clearance cut for loading long COL loads. Is there another cut on the right side front of the ejection port? That is a clearance cut for ejecting loaded rounds.
Sounds like a standard M98 opened up a bit for ease of ejecting and loading.
Usually not a significant weakener if all else is done right.
Ray might also claim that the Mark X's Zastava action is stronger than the Belgian ones.

I wonder if a slight protrusion, maybe a pop-rivet, in the front end of the magazine box might stop the follower dipping as the last cartridge is pushed forward? It would need to allow the follower to ride past it on the way down and not impede bullets coming up, but fix the underside of the follower at the height it reaches beneath the last round, as the bolt comes closes.

It is the stupid rebated rim.
Can't fix stupid.
Get an original "Best Quality" .425 WR by WR with Rube Goldberg magazine contraption, or use non-rebated brass in whatever Mauser if you must.
You would be way better off with a .458 WIN.

Always crimp your loads for a .458 WIN, or for anything other than in some fussy little specialty use,
when you have to hold your tongue just right to get it to shoot.

Uniform crimping will add velocity and uniformity, and raise the pressure only a thousand or two of psi.
If you don't crimp now,
reduce your load by a couple of grains of powder and work back up, with a CRIMP.

Rip ...

Agreed on the crimp. Even with cast. Got to start the party with a bang to ensure everyone has a good time during the burn if you want consistency.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
[QUOTE].
That is just a clearance cut for loading long COL loads. Is there another cut on the right side front of the ejection port? That is a clearance cut for ejecting loaded rounds.
Sounds like a standard M98 opened up a bit for ease of ejecting and loading.
Usually not a significant weakener if all else is done right.

No, there's no cut-out on the right. Maybe the lack of the loading clip on the way out made it unnecessary.

Would love a 458WM but if one of those FN rifles turns up, I might have to settle for the 9.3x62, the most-simple conversion I can think of.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Agreed on the crimp. Even with cast. Got to start the party with a bang to ensure everyone has a good time during the burn if you want consistency.

Yes indeed, must crimp with a double rifle for sure, if you want to maintain a regulation load when traveling and hunting.
Jostling of ammo may affect seating depth if not crimped.
An unfired round in the second barrel will lengthen COL if not crimped, second shot is lower velocity and lower pressure.
Heck, you have to crimp in order to establish a load uniform enough to regulate the double rifle with.
All Kynoch ammo is crimped by factory, says David Little, head honcho.

A magazine repeater is even worse!
Pounding in recoil seats bullets deeper.
Dangerous pressures and wild flyers will result with the magazine battered rounds.

I have learned from my .461/544gr FNGC for the .458 WIN.
Even 1400 fps with it might be a Selous-style elephant perforator,
at 2150 fps it is a buffalo stopper.
The technology of heat-treated 92/5/2/1 alloy with powder-coat paint and +/- gas check can be used to improve other blasts from the past,
like this .395-caliber custom boolitt:



Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Would love a 458WM but if one of those FN rifles turns up, I might have to settle for the 9.3x62, the most-simple conversion I can think of.

Amen! Nothing wrong with a 9.3x62mm Mauser.
It is a wonderful chambering that performs all out of proportion to its size.
Must be because of the way it is throated in the CIP specs (0*21'29"). That is a long, leade-only throat, similar to the SAAMI & CIP .458 WIN (0*29'30").
It dates back to 1905, the dawn of the big bore magazine repeater DGR with the .404 Jeffery.
Heck of an accurate and powerful transitional cartridge, from medium bore to big bore bridging.



What is not to like about the 9.3x62mm Mauser?
Hey, it even has about the same twist as the .458 WIN.
CIP spec is 1:360mm = 1:14.17"
Great side kick for THE GREAT ONE, the .458 WIN.
Trainer loads to match the trajectory of the .458 WIN could be devised, surely.
Birds of a feather flock together.

Rip ...

My favorite three hunting cartridges are the 6.5x55, 9.3x62, and .458 Win Mag. As noted above, the larger two both have long, small angle, leade-only throats. Courtesy of QuickDesign, see the chamber drawing for the 6.5x55 throat...It appears to be leade-only tapered, but with a larger angle. Can we consider this a similar throat design to the other two? Its length is comparatively long compared with the bullet diameter. RIP, is this drawing identical to the older, original Mauser throats that were designed to be used with 160 grain round-nose bullets? I'm wondering if there were longer, smaller angle throat versions over a hundred years ago. There seem to be many versions of the 6.5x55 throat these days.

This cartridge also seems to be able to perform out of proportion to its size, and it is easy to get significant velocities with relatively heavy bullets without undue pressure signs.

bcelliott,

Thanks for pointing this out.

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
My favorite three hunting cartridges are the 6.5x55, 9.3x62, and .458 Win Mag. As noted above, the larger two both have long, small angle, leade-only throats. Courtesy of QuickDesign, see the chamber drawing for the 6.5x55 throat...It appears to be leade-only tapered, but with a larger angle.

Nice! A CIP chamber drawing, translated to inches from the millimeters of CIP.

Can we consider this a similar throat design to the other two? Its length is comparatively long compared with the bullet diameter.

Relatively comparable, yes.
Comparing the CIP specs, distance in chamber from start of leade to BORE diameter:

For 6.5x55mm is shown as 0.5551" for the .264" bullet, leade semi-angle is 0*42'29". Pmax 3800 bar or 55,100 psi.
For 9.3x62mm is shown as 1.1024" for the .366" bullet, leade semi-angle is 0*21'29". Pmax 3900 bar or 56,550 psi.
For .458 WIN is shown as 1.1150" for the .458" bullet, leade semi-angle is 0*29'30". Pmax 4300 bar or 62,350 psi (SAAMI allows only 60,000 psi).

The travel of a cylindrical bullet from case mouth to GROOVE diameter (where the bullet first starts engraving) might be a better measure of "free-bore."
In the .458 WIN with 2.500" brass length, it is 0.6725" by CIP/SAAMI chamber minimums.
In the .458 Lott with 2.800" brass it is 0.2143".
I know this by heart.
I might get a headache calculating it for 6.5mm carts.

Relative to bullet diameter, the 9.3x62mm is most "coned up" of the "B.C.Elliott Trio."
All three would be getting considerable pressure let off and "effective" case capacity benefit from their coned up breeches.
Also, the 6.5x55 can be loaded much higher in pressure than CIP spec, in a modern rifle.

RIP, is this drawing identical to the older, original Mauser throats that were designed to be used with 160 grain round-nose bullets? I'm wondering if there were longer, smaller angle throat versions over a hundred years ago. There seem to be many versions of the 6.5x55 throat these days.
This cartridge also seems to be able to perform out of proportion to its size, and it is easy to get significant velocities with relatively heavy bullets without undue pressure signs.

I am no expert on 6.5mm carts, just have to look them up whenever I can find them.
Something remarkable is the identical throating on the 6.5x57 and 6.5x68.

The 6.5x57mm is shown as 1.1811" for the .264" bullet, leade semi-angle is 0*17'11". Pmax 3900 bar or 56,550 psi.
The 6.5x68mm is shown as 1.1811" for the .264" bullet, leade semi-angle is 0*17'11". Pmax 4400 bar or 63,800 psi.
That is a very long leade relative to bullet diameter.
The .458 WIN is much shorter throated, relative to caliber than either of those.

Then there is the 6.5 Creedmoor which has a Weatherby-style throat, like the .375 Weatherby of 2001 revamp (CIP homologated in 2002):
Just under one bullet-caliber of parallel-sided free-bore length, with less than 0.001" greater diameter of the PSFB than bullet caliber, then a leade semi-angle of about 1 to 1.5 degrees.
That is significant free-bore.
So is that of the 6.5x55 SE.
I am sold on the long, leade-only throat.
I would do that sort of throat on any reamer I might have made nowadays,
even though I used to be a Weatherby-style PSFB freak previously.
My personal renaissance.

Rip ...