Some 300-grain hard rock candy for lookin' at,
awaiting backordered TSX:

Chamber-checking loads that need to be delivered to THE GUNSMITH working on .45-100 Sharps Straight 2.6" Winchester Throated No.2, which will be another No.1:



That should be a fun load.
Straight out of the Lyman Manual for the .45-100 Sharps 2.6" with 500-grain "Government" bullet, with 40.0 grains of AA-5744,
supposed to give 27,000 CUP and 1646 fps from a 29.5" barrel length.
However I have substituted Linotype for the Lyman #2 Alloy,
so bullet weight is 487 grains.
It is a plain-base bullet and powder-coat-painted, sized to 0.461".
Hopefully it will be fired from a 28" barrel of 1:18" twist.
With the .458 Winchester Throat and 13-grains-lighter it will be lower pressure.
Hopefully velocity will be similar to the Lyman manual result.
Should be accurate.

Same load can be used in the ballistic twin .458 WIN which has 0.1" shorter brass.
COL in the .45-100 SWT = 3.350"
COL in the .458 WIN = 3.250"

Rip ...

Whew!
Less than 24 hours.

2900 fps to 2200 fps.
Something for everybody.
The backordered 300-grain TSX has been "overdue" for a while at Midway USA.
Disciples of Bob must have bought 'em out.

Rip ...

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle! The Missing Link in the evolution of the .45-bore sporting rifle has been found, and it was a Rimfire Rifle!
Frenchy Flobert might have propelled a BB with a percussion cap in his 1845/1849-patented saloon pistols,
but the rimfire cartridge is distinctly American, arriving first in Smith & Wesson's first revolver,
the .22 Short of 1857: 30-grain bullet, 4 grains of BP.
Mr. Henry's rifle came along in 1860, first rimfire load for it was a .443-cal, 210-grain bullet, 25 grains of BP, the ".42 U.S. Henry of 1861."
(Not quite .458 WIN level, but getting a little closer to the Missing Link.)

Before and after that first rimfire rifle:
1854: Whitworth's .45-bore percussion muzzle-loader with 530-grain hexagonal bullet propelled by 85 grains of BP.
1862: Whitworth's .45-bore percussion muzzle-loader with 530-grain cylindrical bullet, 85 grains BP.
1865: Whitworth's .45-bore percussion muzzle-loader with 480-grain cylindrical bullet, 75 grains of BP.

Next evolution, during the U.S. Civil War, Union rifle trials of 1864-1865:

The ".44-45-500 U.S. Experimental, 1864-1865: .459-caliber/500-gr lead bullet, 45 grains of BP, rimfire
The ".44-55-500 U.S. Experimental, 1864-1865: .460-caliber/500-gr lead bullet, 55 grains of BP, rimfire

There, the first .45-caliber, metallic cartridge relative of the .458 WIN, the Missing Link, was an American rimfire, or two!

See photo below, the family resemblance to the .458 WIN LongCOL is uncanny!

Rip ...

The History and Development
of
SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION
Volume One
Second Edition
Martial Long Arms: Flintlock Through Rimfire
George A. Hoyem

Excerpts below for book review purposes.
Book Review: Outstanding in it's field, this is the first volume of four in the series by George A. Hoyem. The reader of this book shall attain enlightenment.

From Page 164:


From Page 202:



The large-caliber rimfires were just a flash in the pan, or a flash in the rim,
obsoleted by the centerfire just a few short years after they arrived.
Thank goodness.
Reloading the brass of a .458 WINchester Magnum Rimfire is more of a challenge than I need.

Rip ...

Man, if you just glanced quickly at those .44 rimfires, you'd think they were some sort of heavy bullet .22 lr, like an Aguila Colibri 60 grain in a longer case.

Dang, this thread is 458 Winchester Mag. DEEP, Nice! hope I can get by with my old Browning Safari firing the lowly 500gr Partitions at 2150 fps, and the 450gr BBW-#13 solids a hundred fps faster, I never knew so many possibilities were doable in the 458 WM, good work Men.

More comments and a decision on the 300 TSX using H4198:

At the range yesterday, I only fired three 300 TSXs to sight in the rifle. It shot the previous test @2980 fps +6" over center of target. The reason for that was I'd never changed the zero from last fall when it was sighted for the 350 Hor.FT at 2510 fps. So, it is now sighted at about +1.5" over center.

The group of three measured 1.625" (1 5/8") c.to c. The last two were only .5" c. to c. The first shot was higher due to two factors: 1) It was the fastest, and 2) The first shot after scope adjustment. I find it always takes a shot or two to re-zero the scope (for it to settle in).

And I've decided to reduce MV a bit to around 2950 - 2960; that should happen by reducing the charge from 82.5 grains to 81.5 or 82 grains. Less compression and slightly lower psi. The Remington cases were formerly used in my CZ550 nine or ten years ago. They were used twice, according to my recollection. Now they've been used four more times at max pressure. They are work hardened, and will be discarded. I'll try more of the former Rem brass, and Win, for my new trials of the 300 TSX over 82 grs in the Winchester brass and 81.5 grs in the Rem brass, since the latter has slightly less capacity than the Win brass.

I also shot my CZ .22LR at 100 using the 36gr HP CCI Mini-Mag. Eight went into less than 2" at 100. Extreme spread was 27 fps.

Add 20 fps for correction to MV.

1289
1300
1312
1291
1303
1285
1294
1310

Corrected avg. = 1319 fps

That's pretty good for factory HV .22LR ammo in my view!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
Man, if you just glanced quickly at those .44 rimfires, you'd think they were some sort of heavy bullet .22 lr, like an Aguila Colibri 60 grain in a longer case.

That is funny. The usual 1:16" 22 rimfire barrel does not work with that bullet.
I wonder how fast a twist is needed?

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Dang, this thread is 458 Winchester Mag. DEEP, Nice! hope I can get by with my old Browning Safari firing the lowly 500gr Partitions at 2150 fps, and the 450gr BBW-#13 solids a hundred fps faster, I never knew so many possibilities were doable in the 458 WM, good work Men.

Jerry,
Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.
Glad someone likes it!
We are just getting started.

Rip ...

Bob,

Some .22 LR to chase the .458 WIN is a great idea.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

How did you erase those powder charges from the Hodgdon data?
You really do hate revealing powder charges.
Oh, we have to sign in at the Hodgdon site to see the powder charge?

Don't forget, if the .458 Lott can do 62,500 psi,
so can the .458 WIN.
Thus it becomes a non-SAAMI wildcat.
A small increase in COL of that .458 WIN wildcat also has big effects,
requires more powder to get back up to .458 Lott pressure.

Rip ...

Latest range trip:
89 degrees Fahrenheit
25" Shilen stainless barrel of 1:14" twist, Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ

Hornady Factory Loads:

500-gr DGS, 3.275" COL, 71.8 grains charge of "factory powder," MV = 2117 fps (for BC = 0.295)
500-gr DGX, 3.270" COL, 70.3 grains charge of "factory powder," MV = 2124 fps (for BC = 0.295)
"Factory powder" looks like AA-2230.
The 500-gr DGX was loaded with 1.5 grains less powder yet did not go slower than the DGS.
Insignificantly faster with less powder,
about the same velocity, the goal was met.


HANDLOAD:

480-gr Hornady DGX-Bonded, 3.340" COL, 78.3 grains of AA-2230
Hornady brass, F-215 primer, second cannelure by CH4D tool,
seating depth = 0.480"
MV = 2297 fps (for BC = 0.285)
5-shot st. dev. = 6 fps.
Not bad for starters.

More to come, after my nap.

Rip ...

Busted Scope Report:



The Busnell Elite 3200 10x40mm Mildot survived getting zeroed at 25 yards with the Hornady bullets above.
By golly, it put them into little one-hole groups at 25 yards, and tracked true on adjustments.
Dead-on zeroed.
I just wanted to get that 25-yard shooting done for the initial zeroing and chronographing shown above (DGX 480-grainer loaded to 3.340" COL).

It also survived the first three shots with the
544-gr FNGC, windage right-on, but 2" high at 25-yards, nice little one-hole 3-shot.

I adjusted the scope to lower elevation before moving on to 100 yards, fired 2 more shots at 25 yards, to complete a 5-shot chronograph string.

I expected those shots to be on the bullseye, point of aim.
The elevation was correct, but the windage had drifted off to the right, and the two shots were horizontally strung an inch apart at 25 yards.
That would be equivalent to 4 inches at 100 yards.

Well chronographing done, I tried 100 yards anyway.
The 544-grainers in three 3-shot groups strung horizontally, 4 inches on centers.
Windage adjustments were tried, but a 4-click/1" adjustment produced an 8-inch movement to the right. What to do?
Shoot that final 3-shot group at 100 yards: Off the paper to the right.

544-gr FNGC chronograph results:
5 shots on 8-3-2019, 89*F, 25" Shilen barrel of 1:14" twist
5-yard instrumental velocities:

1. 2125 fps
2. 2128 fps
3. 2126 fps
4. 2126 fps
5. 2128 fps

Average = 2126 fps, correction to MV: 2139 fps, for BC = 0.300
Extreme spread = 3 fps
5-shot standard deviation = 1 fps

This is slower than previous chronographing, 62 fps slower, but consistency is great again.
It was a good day even with busting a Bushnell in the process.

This load was seated out only about 0.010" longer, and crimped only enough to straighten out the flare of the case mouth,
no roll crimp, light taper crimp only.

Slow load: COL 3.480"-3.485", minimal crimp, 2139 fps MV, RCBS AmmoMaster chronograph, 89*F, 8-3-2019

Fast load: COL 3.470"-3.475", heavy crimp, 2201 fps MV, Shooting Chrony chronograph, 81*F, 7-18-2013.

Same same brass and primer, same rifle, 25", Bobbarrella.

Chronograph differences, plus the COL and crimp differences? A bit of this and that? Maybe.
But the AmmoMaster did not show a slow MV for that 480-grain DGX: 2297 fps

I will use the Oehler 35P next time, AND A NIKON SHOTGUN SCOPE!!!

Long Live the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

Cartridge: .458 Winchester Magnum
Data from: https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/
Powder charges are not COSMIC SQUIRREL SECRET.
They are revealed here, by your humble servant, via copy and paste:

Case: Winchester Twist: 1:14" Primer: CCI 250, Large Rifle Magnum Barrel Length: 24" Trim Length: 2.490"

BULLET WEIGHT
300 GR. BAR TSX

Manufacturer Powder ... Bullet Diam. ... C.O.L.
Hodgdon H4198 ....... .458" ............. 3.200"

Grs. ...... Vel. (ft/s) ...... Pressure
68.0 ....... 2,565 ........... 40,300 CUP
76.0C ..... 2,793 ........... 51,300 CUP


Rip ...

To commemorate a great success yesterday, starting with a maximum load in the .458 WIN, using the 480-grain DGX-Bonded bullet by Hornady:



I would recommend working downward to about 2250 fps with the 480-grain DGX, for a tropical load that fits 3.340" SAAMI COL.

Rip ...

My impression after seating and crimping the 480-grain DGX bullet over 78.3 grains of AA-2230 at COL 3.340", seating depth 0.480":
Definitely a compressed load.
Using QuickLOAD defaults, the volumetric fill of that load is 105.7%.

Using measurements from dissected factory loads (the DGX and DGS 500-grainers pictured above the 480-grain DGX handload),
and assuming the powder is AA-2230,
QuickLOAD calculates that both of those loads are compressed too:
Factory 500-grain DGX load: 102.8%.
Factory 500-grain DGS load: 104.1%
Shaking both of those loads in my hand next to my ear makes me think the cases are full.

The maximum loads in the Hornady manual (10th Edition) must be compressed too, by QuickLOAD calculation:

480-grain DGX (71.1 grains AA-2230, 3.200" COL, seating depth 0.620"): 104.0%
500-grain DGS (78.3 grains AA-2230, 3.310" COL, seating depth 0.570"): 111.2%

75.0 grains of AA-2230 ought to be about 100% fill with the 480-grain DGX at 3.340" COL,
might give 10,000 psi lower pressure than the 78.3-grain, compressed load,
and might be just a little over 2200 fps.
That is a "tropical load" needing chronographing in the .458 WIN, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Everyone is hikin right along.
Bummer about the fixed 10 power Bushy.
I'm going to try out the SWFA10x42 mildot on SK.

CTF,

Thanks for the condolences.
If I had just stuck with 300-grainers at 2900 fps the scope would probably still be alive!
But life goes on.
I have some work yet to do with the heavier bullets before I get back to the lighter ones.

QuickLOAD does not know how to deal with throats, for sure, but I think the basics like volumetric filling percentage are pretty accurate.
Depends on updating the powder properties as they change, lot-to-lot, of course, but some of those properties don't change much, we hope!

AA-2460 fill on my last 544-grain load seems to be calculated about right, at 91%.
I can hear and feel a lot of shaking going on in that load:

This makes me think I should use a little disc of caulk-backer foam rod to fill the case.
Might get the standard deviation of that load down from 1 fps to 0 fps for 5 shots.

Or, why not just go with the 3.340" COL, with two grains less powder, and make it a 96% fill and still be able to use a little foam filler?



A little higher pressure for close to the same velocity if QuickLOAD is to be believed.

Looks like I may be on the verge of a religious conversion:
SAAMI COL and wildcat/.458 Lott MAP is chicken soup for the soul.

Rip ...

The 480-grain DGX-Bonded "Tropical Load":

A 105.7% compressed charge of AA-2230 at 3.340" COL is not cool, even if it is about 2300 fps in a 25" barrel at 89*F with no pressure signs,
and requires no use of a drop tube to easily seat and crimp.

101% might be cool. That is 74.8 grains of AA-2230 according to QuickLOAD.
It would serve to prevent deeper seating of bullet by magazine box battering in recoil.
No filler needed, no drop tube needed.
2.5 grains less powder might still be over 2230 fps MV in a 25" barrel, close to 2220 fps in a 24" barrel.
That is "Magnum Nitro Express" power compared to the standard "Nitro Express" power of 480-gr/.458 at 2150 fps,
and that is more than sufficient.

Rip ...

But wait, going tropical, there is one more step:

Use AA-2460 instead of AA-2230.
A 101% fill of AA-2460 is 74.9 grains according to QuickLOAD, for the the 480-grain DGX-Bonded at 3.340" COL.

74.9-gr AA-2460 = 101% fill = 74.8-gr AA-2230

There is that little difference in the densities of the powders, according to QuickLOAD.

AA-2460 is a little slower in burn rate, gives lower pressures than AA-2230 for same charge weight.
That is plumb tropical!
Only these two powders were reformulated in 2016 by Western Powders to have improved ThermoBallisticIndependence.
AA-2460 seems to deliver the internal-ballistic-oomph quite well, just like AA-2230.

I gotta try it, 74.9 grains, heck, make it a nice even 75.0 grains, of AA-2460 with the 480-grain DGX-Bonded at 3.340" COL.
Plumb tropical.

Rip ...

It is just the ball powders I do not like to compress much.
I heartily approve of 105% compression of stick powders of good TBI, like H4198.
Greater compression than that?
Use a drop tube and see how much more you can safely use, depending on results without the drop tube.
Compressed loads of stick powders may be considered plumb tropical too.

Chicken soup for the soul of a .458 WIN shooter with a standard .458 WIN rifle of 3.4" magazine box length:
COL of 3.340" and pressure equaling the MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 WIN throat shines in many ways.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
It is just the ball powders I do not like to compress much.
I heartily approve of 105% compression of stick powders of good TBI, like H4198.
Greater compression than that?
Use a drop tube and see how much more you can safely use, depending on results without the drop tube.
Compressed loads of stick powders may be considered plumb tropical too.

Chicken soup for the soul of a .458 WIN shooter with a standard .458 WIN rifle of 3.4" magazine box length:
COL of 3.340" and pressure equaling the MAP of the SAAMI .458 Lott.
The .458 WIN throat shines in many ways.

Rip ...

Interesting, I don't have my big bore load book handy, but do compress H335 a good bit to seat the 500gr Partition in the crimp groove, I do use a drop tube, iirc it's a flattened ball powder, I have cooked the rifle and ammunition in the 105 degree Oklahoma sun for several hours without any ill effects, velocity[increase] wasn't an issue, seems pretty stable at that level of compression while giving single digit extreme spreads at 2155 fps.

I need to get that thing up on the banks of the Limpopo, chase some buffalo and find out, also see how the 500gr partition works, I cant find any info on the web as how they perform on heavy game, and I bought a pile of those bullets.

quote:

I will use the Oehler 35P next time, AND A NIKON SHOTGUN SCOPE!!!

I'm about to put a 3-9x40 Nikon Inline (100-yard parallax) on my wife's new 270.
Bang for buck is still impressive and she likes the clarity and 5" eye-relief.

Nikon Shotgun with shorter parallax is also good for dangerous game rifles without need for 300-400 yard coverage.

At the range today, shooting what I promised, well... almost anyway.

As an aside, if you live in Canada order your .458 Win brass well in advance of a hunt, or stock-pile 'em, as it's now a "big deal" to find any. Winchester .458 brass is on "back-order" at Winchester. The guy who supplied me with brass for my CZ550 eleven years ago, lives in Saskatchewan and only has Norma cases at $72 Cdn for 25!!! The only other source I have is local but they must get it from Alberta! It's Hornady brass at $105 Cdn for 50 delivered!!!!!!!!

And I still have a "stock pile" of .45-70 brass (new and once fired), but nothing to use them in!

Oh well... back to events of this early morning:

Ambient conditions: Temp @ 20*C/69*F; overcast with heavy rain on the way. (I was packing up when the first drops arrived. Just hit the highway and it was torrents of rain on the way home.)

Chrony at 15'
Bullet: 300 TSX, crimped into bottom cannelure.

Rem brass (once fired in the CZ eight years ago).
WLRM primers
81.8 grains H4198
3 shots: corrected average = 2935

shot 1 = 2918; shot 2 = 2914; shot 3 = 2914. Add 20 to each for correction to muzzle.

Win brass: from 10 years ago used in my CZ, and since last summer used in my Ruger #1 (Well used!!)

WLRM primers
82 grains H4198
300 TSX crimped into bottom cannelure.

shot 1 = 2927 fps; shot 2 = 2921 fps; shot 3 = 2920 fps. Corrected average = 2942.6 fps. But! Those 3 shot into a ragged hole .788" c. to c. as best I could measure it.

But, I think that the last 2 fired were negatively affected in recorded fps by very black clouds that had moved in reducing light significantly. Anyway, that was the most accurate load to date firing those 300 TSX's.

I still have quite a few Remington, once fired, cases, so will go with those for now. Later, I'll have to rob a bank and order some Hornady brass!!!

Another thot: The once-fired Rem brass, used in the CZ, measured significantly less at the head after firing in the CZ than in the Ruger. The Ruger obviously has a slightly larger chamber. So, we must be careful in comparing results of one rifle with another in the same chambering. Especially is that so in expecting the same or similar results as those obtained in ballistic labs, like Hornady or Nosler. I've known that for years and have had long discussions with head ballisticians over that point, and other points as well.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I don't know what's going on with what I post, but this is a second attempt to make a post with all details. The first one appeared leaving out the data for the Win brass loads, ascribing them to the Rem loads!

quote:

Originally posted by jerry mcdonald:
Interesting, I don't have my big bore load book handy, but do compress H335 a good bit to seat the 500gr Partition in the crimp groove, I do use a drop tube, iirc it's a flattened ball powder, I have cooked the rifle and ammunition in the 105 degree Oklahoma sun for several hours without any ill effects, velocity[increase] wasn't an issue, seems pretty stable at that level of compression while giving single digit extreme spreads at 2155 fps.

I need to get that thing up on the banks of the Limpopo, chase some buffalo and find out, also see how the 500gr partition works, I cant find any info on the web as how they perform on heavy game, and I bought a pile of those bullets.

Jerry,
Your H335 is highly recommended by many.
My dislike of HEAVILY COMPRESSED ball powder may be due to superstition
generated by all the old stories about faulty .458 WIN factory loads with ball powder congealed to a solid lump.
But the ball powders are a little harder to ignite compared to stick powders, IMHO.
Anyway, I have found something better than H335, IMHO: AA-2460 and AA-2230, IMHO.
I.e., it is all just IMHO, your mileage may vary, etc.

A review of some pressure data related to H335 from the Lee manual,
and the Nosler manual 7th Edition's loads related to their 500-grain Partition and monometal brass Solid,
follow below, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Western Powders data for comparison, and extrapolation to 480-grainer:

The wishful extrapolation, wishing for a pressure testing:



450-grainer with 76 to 77 grains of AA-2460 is also suggested by this fanciful extrapolation of "tropical loads."

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I'm about to put a 3-9x40 Nikon Inline (100-yard parallax) on my wife's new 270.
Bang for buck is still impressive and she likes the clarity and 5" eye-relief.

Nikon Shotgun with shorter parallax is also good for dangerous game rifles without need for 300-400 yard coverage.

Right-on, right-on, right-on.
You only pay for great eye-relief with somewhat limited FOV and internal adjustment range.
Good trade-off, best scope for the money for a "huntin'rifle."
Just no longer called the SLUGHUNTER (discontinued) and no more 50- to 75-yard parallax: PROSTAFF P3 SHOTGUN 3-9x40 is what Nikon calls the improved version now.
Similarly the InLine is called the MUZZLELOADER now.

Best Bang for the Buck:





HO HO! Page 143, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
Ambient conditions: Temp @ 20*C/69*F; overcast with heavy rain on the way. (I was packing up when the first drops arrived. Just hit the highway and it was torrents of rain on the way home.)

Chrony at 15'
Bullet: 300 TSX, crimped into bottom cannelure.

Rem brass (once fired in the CZ eight years ago).
WLRM primers
81.8 grains H4198
3 shots: corrected average = 2935

shot 1 = 2918; shot 2 = 2914; shot 3 = 2914. Add 20 to each for correction to muzzle.

Win brass: from 10 years ago used in my CZ, and since last summer used in my Ruger #1 (Well used!!)

WLRM primers
82 grains H4198
300 TSX crimped into bottom cannelure.

shot 1 = 2927 fps; shot 2 = 2921 fps; shot 3 = 2920 fps. Corrected average = 2942.6 fps. But! Those 3 shot into a ragged hole .788" c. to c. as best I could measure it.

But, I think that the last 2 fired were negatively affected in recorded fps by very black clouds that had moved in reducing light significantly. Anyway, that was the most accurate load to date firing those 300 TSX's.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

The load data is golden, thank you, Bob.
You are a great MISSIONARY for THE MISSION.
I will get onto the H4198 and 300-grain TSX whenever I can get some of those bullets.
Might fiddle with the Nosler 300-grainers sooner than that!

And thanks for pushing the 480-grain DGX early on.
Perfect for the Tropical Load suggested by sambarman338.

I think I have stumbled into the greatness of AA-2460, like a Missouri Mule who showed himself.
Seemed a natural for the 544-gr FNGC, but by golly it will do well with 400-grainer through 600-grainer, I SWAG.
H4198 for 300-350-grainers.
AA-2230 for 350-500-grainers
AA-2460 for 400-600-grainers.

Yes, I have about a hundred of those old Barnes Original 600-grainers in my stash,
to punish myself with, for THE MISSION.
Barnes #3 manual recommended H4198 as the powder of choice for the 600-grainer.
Must have been the most accurate, it was not the highest velocity load.

600-grain Barnes Original RNSP
56.0 grains H4198
24"-barreled .458 WIN, SAAMI pressure and SAAMI COL compliant
2024 fps MV.

Twice the bullet weight and two thirds of the powder charge used in Bob's latest load.
Makes Bob's load seem conservative.

BTW, the same manual showed the .458 Lott used a 26" barrel:
Pressure 2,500 psi higher
COL 0.260" longer
Barrel 2 inches longer
and MV was all of 96 fps higher than attainable in the .458 WIN with shorter barrel, less pressure, and lesser COL.
with more powder having been burned (H4895 74.0 grains) to further increase recoil with the .458 Lott.

Of course, allow the .458 WIN same 3.6" COL and 62.5 Kpsi MAP like the .458 Lott, and in same barrel length as the .458 Lott:
Lott loses to the WIN.

Rip ...

I was told by Western Powders that Accurate 2230 and Ramshot X-terminator are the same powder now that they are both made in Florida as of 2016. The old X-terminator was made in Belgium.