Hopefully !!

OK. 458 WinRuger .

I was just thinking of changing the cartridge name to
.458 Buffalo Trace, but maybe not.

Rip ...

This is fantastic stuff, even if I haven't read or remembered every post in 67 pages.

In the interest of getting it to 458, could I put another question?

Can anyone estimate how many rifles in the world might be chambered for the 458 Lott or one of the other super-charged .458s?

A poster on another forum has surmised there are probably only about 20, but I seem to recall the 458 Lott is commercially loaded by someone - and it's hard to see that happening for only two dozen rifles.

On brass,
you all need to mosey over to PowderValleyInc.com and give 'em a holler.
They have Hornady 375 Ruger Basic in stock for $44.20. they have 375 Ruger, too, for $45.08. What's not to like?

OK, so Nosler 375 Ruger is both expensive and "out of stock".

But Hornady 416 Ruger is in stock at $46.33.

Now you all get on the stick and let the Hornadys know you appreciate their hard work and forward thinking.

That's good brass at a good price.

sambarman338,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

Almost everybody and his brother has a .458 Lott.
There are surely thousands of them in the world.
Ruger chambered the RSM for it, CZ has made lots of them. Hornady makes loaded ammo and component brass for it, as did HDS and others.

The production of the Pre-'64 Winchester M70 African from 1956 through 1963 numbered only 1,226.
Many more .458 Win.Mag. post-'63,
and those caused quite a stir, or a stink, eh?
Jack Lott started building .458 Lott rifles about 1977 IIRC, two that year.
Many custom makers built them over the last 40 years.
Surely D'Arcy Echols alone has built way more than the "20" .458 Lotts that sumbuddy who don't know suggested.

Rip ...

Surely somebody has done a .458/.416 Ruger besides me.
But do theirs have a .458 Win. throat?
There are probably less than 20 .458 WinRugers in the world right now.
Speaking of the devil, Woodie has a new "custom," leather-covered buttpad:



Rip ...

"0784" was found under the receiver sight base on the right side of the bridge, rubbed a bit by the base:



Might mean the rifle was made in July 1984?

Rip ...

Here is a Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm scope in QRW rings,
The 8#6oz rifle weighs 9#12oz with scope, rings, and buttpad:



Loaded with three rounds of ammo: 10#2oz
Comfortable.
Add 3 more rounds of ammo to butt-carrier and it is 10.5 lbs.

Rip ...

One more accessory reassigned to Woodie is the
"Anderson Gun Shop--Storm Queen" lens cover on a red rubber band:



That is a creation of Harvey B. Anderson, that James Watts claimed to have goaded Anderson into doing.
James Watts seemed to have invented everything.

Harvey B. Anderson built the first .450 Watts Magnum in his shop, for James Watts, in 1949.
Anderson's name is on the copyright for the .450 Watts Magnum in 1950, that James Watts supposedly signed a release for, to Winchester.

I probably got the Storm Queen scope cover about 1984, same year I got my first .458 Win.,
maybe same year Woodie was born as Woodelle.
It took 34 years for Woodie to come out of the closet, maybe ...

Rip ...

Ha! Page 68!
Good work men, for THE MISSION.

Rip ...

Well Ron, the post count is now at top end 460 Wby velocity.

Congratulations. A job well done.

But you could only do it on a Big Bore. Imagine trying to do it for a 308 ...I am thinking the 308 is the 458's equivalent in small bores.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Here is a Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm scope in QRW rings,
The 8#6oz rifle weighs 9#12oz with scope, rings, and buttpad:



Loaded with three rounds of ammo: 10#2oz
Comfortable.
Add 3 more rounds of ammo to butt-carrier and it is 10.5 lbs.

Rip ...

A person could do some serious hunting with this.

Now for the test data . . .

All that scope need is a lit up reticle and it would be perfect.
I have heard that if you take a little dab of break and shake chem light fluid and put a little dab of it on the bottom of one of the lenses it it will make the reticle illuminate. I'm not sure whether to put it on the front or back end of the scope tho.
It would be a trial and error kinda thing.

Just to humor a certain Alaskan with Raynaud's phenomenon limited to his right index finger:

Woodie says "he" likes it, it makes "him" look more butch,
and he wants to try to beat the illuminated reticle into giving up the ghost.
I am getting worried that besides transgender, "he" might be into S&M too.



Well, the true 1X is an eye-opener, and I gotta have a backup scope of some sort.
Might as well try the Black Force 1000, 1-4x24 Matte IL SPEEDFORCE.

Woodie weighs 10#2oz as shown above.
More hefty, more butch, with the 30mm tube.
Add only 3 cartridges and "he" is up to 10.5#!
Scope, rings, slip-on buttpad and ammo carrier, and 3 rounds of ammunition add 2 pounds and 2 ounces of weight.
8#6oz becomes 10#8oz.
A 6#12oz .458 Win. rifle so dressed would weigh 8#14oz, not counting the weight of the muzzle brake that would need to be added to it.

Rip ...

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
sambarman338,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION.

Almost everybody and his brother has a .458 Lott.
There are surely thousands of them in the world.
Ruger chambered the RSM for it, CZ has made lots of them. Hornady makes loaded ammo and component brass for it, as did HDS and others.

The production of the Pre-'64 Winchester M70 African from 1956 through 1963 numbered only 1,226.
Many more .458 Win.Mag. post-'63,
and those caused quite a stir, or a stink, eh?
Jack Lott started building .458 Lott rifles about 1977 IIRC, two that year.
Many custom makers built them over the last 40 years.
Surely D'Arcy Echols alone has built way more than the "20" .458 Lotts that sumbuddy who don't know suggested.

Rip ...

Thanks, Rip,
that's more the way I expected.

BTW that JB Weld sounds like good stuff.

Is there much tunnel vision in that scope? I've only got a Monarch 4-16x42 but it's like looking through a toilet roll.

Now yer talkin ! That's the ticket !
The weight should mellow the recoil some pretty good.
In point of fact I have the effects of Reynaud's syndrome in every digit.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338

Is there much tunnel vision in that scope? I've only got a Monarch 4-16x42 but it's like looking through a toilet roll.

Absolutely no "tunnel vision" with the Nikon Black Force 1000 1-4x24mm Matte IL SpeedForce reticle.
It is like a headsup canopy display in a fighter jet.
Both eyes wide open, glowing red reticle and 1X non-magnificacation where ever you point it.
I gotta try this thing against .458 WinRuger recoil.
400-grain HV loads will start where the .458 Win. left off.
I will start with 83.0 grains of AA-2230 and see if I can get it past 2500 fps and stop at 2600 fps MV if I get there, with this 24" barrel.

Rip ...

CTF,

I bet you have a good collection of gloves!
My wife also suffers from Raynaud's Syndrome.
That is my excuse for leaving Alaska.
What is your excuse for not leaving Alaska?
Thanks for recommending the trial of a Nikon Black Force scope.

Rip ...

RIP, I'm going to predict that the best powders for top velocity loads in the .458 WinRuger with bullet weights between 350-550 grains will be CFE223, 2000MR, and RL-17 in order of increasing bullet weights.

Also, I've looked and looked all over the web, and can't find anyone who has used CFE223 in the 458 Win Mag, as on paper, it's too slow. However, though I have no time right now to try it out myself, I will go out on a limb and predict that if you do a direct comparison between AA-2230 and CFE223 with 450-500 grain bullets in the 458 Win Longclaw, you'll see an increase of 50 fps over 2230.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338

Is there much tunnel vision in that scope? I've only got a Monarch 4-16x42 but it's like looking through a toilet roll.

Absolutely no "tunnel vision" with the Nikon Black Force 1000 1-4x24mm Matte IL SpeedForce reticle.
It is like a headsup canopy display in a fighter jet.
Both eyes wide open, glowing red reticle and 1X non-magnificacation where ever you point it.
...

Glad to hear it. One of the other AR guys shoots hundreds of rounds through heavy-kicking rifles and reckons Nikon are the toughest.

Be careful with the illumination, though - practise without it, too, in case it fails just at the wrong time and causes momentary alarm costing a fleeting shot or worse.

Yup , lot of gloves and mitts !
I was born a displaced Alaskan. Had to rectify that.

Maybe others have, I have not ever had the electronic reticle light ever break down in any ir scope I've had.
Can you verify that the eye relief on the 1-4. Nikon is 4 " on 1-4 power ?

**************************************************
Magnification 1 - 4 x
Objective Diameter 24 mm
Exit Pupil 6 - 24 mm
Field of View @ 100 yds 27.2 - 110.1 ft
Tube Diameter - Other 30mm
Eye Relief 3.8 - 4.1 in
Eyepiece Outside Diameter 44 mm
Weight 16.4 oz
Overall Length 10.5 in
Parallax Adjustment No
Matte Finish Yes
Use AR (Modern Sporting Rifle)
**************************************************
See what is claimed above:

Eye Relief: 4.1" at 1X to 3.8" at 4X, specified.
But, just holding a ruler between my eye and the scope, 5" eye relief (by hold) gives plenty of view,
no tunnel vision on 1X, minimal tunnel vision on 4X.
Very useful eye relief, I really can't measure it more precisely.

Exit pupil:
24mm at 1X
to 6mm at 4X ... Bright and clear view.

FOV at 100 yards:
>110' on 1X
>27' on 4X

Dandy AR-15.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:

Glad to hear it. One of the other AR guys shoots hundreds of rounds through heavy-kicking rifles and reckons Nikon are the toughest.

Be careful with the illumination, though - practise without it, too, in case it fails just at the wrong time and causes momentary alarm costing a fleeting shot or worse.

I will primarily use the tough little Nikon 1.5-4.5x20mm for testing.
Then try a few shots with the Black Force IL, to see if the illumination function survives.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by bcelliott:
RIP, I'm going to predict that the best powders for top velocity loads in the .458 WinRuger with bullet weights between 350-550 grains will be CFE223, 2000MR, and RL-17 in order of increasing bullet weights.

Also, I've looked and looked all over the web, and can't find anyone who has used CFE223 in the 458 Win Mag, as on paper, it's too slow. However, though I have no time right now to try it out myself, I will go out on a limb and predict that if you do a direct comparison between AA-2230 and CFE223 with 450-500 grain bullets in the 458 Win Longclaw, you'll see an increase of 50 fps over 2230.

That is very interesting.
I will look into the CFE223.
I first wonder how is the ThermoBallisticIndependence with CFE223?
I then think that TBI is said to be very good with AA-2230 and AA-2460 which were reformulated for improved TBI in 2016.
I have no need to go any faster with 400-500-grainers than I can with AA-2230 in the .458 Win.
I have not acquired any AA-2460 yet, need to try that, in both .458 Win. Longclaw and .458 WinRuger.

The Western Powders data below seems to have been worked up to 100% volumetric, no powder compression.
We can surely go higher, to approach the .458 Lott
pressures.




The last line in the table above indicates AA-2460 74.0 grains, 3.305" COL with 500-gr Hornady RN, 24" barrel,
gives higher velocity (2192 fps)and lower pressure (52,864 psi)
than AA-2230 72.0 grains (2159 fps, 53,808 psi).

AA-2460 might do even "more better" than AA-2230 with a longer COL and 500-grain TSX.
But do I really need to go faster than 2300 fps with a 500-grainer in a 24"-barreled .458 Winchester Longclaw?
Not really necessary, except just for kicks.

Rip ...

Thanks RIP!

A straight factory CZ 550 Magnum .458 Win in the Kevlar/Aramid stock fits 6 of the .458 Win cartridges down in the box,
and the bolt will close over the 6 down in the box making it a fully functional sixshooter,
though a 7th cartridge could be Mauser-extractor-pinched into the chamber.
It is a 6+1 sevenshooter.

With the .458 WinRuger, it holds 5 down with a little room to spare to CRF a 6th round off the top of the box, without having to do the pinch maneuver.
So it is good and easy 5+1 sixshooter in .458 WinRuger.

And it will handle 500-grain TSX bullets at 3.780" COL, with .458 Win. brass or .458 WinRuger brass.

I have two factory barrels for this rifle.
One has been rechambered using a SAAMI .458 Lott reamer, so it uses 2.8" brass,
with no enlargement of the throat.
With the slop of the factory-throated chamber in .458 Win. the "Slug Jump" was 0.875" using 2.500" brass.
Using 2.800" brass the "Slug Jump" is 0.575".

The second barrel is a take-off .458 Win. barrel from a CZ that has not been rechambered.
It is going to replace the .458 Lott barrel on the CZ.
I sure hope I never have to have that one rechambered to .458 WinRuger.
But it would be a sixshooter in either chambering,
double the firepower of the Whitworth .458 WinRuger threeshooter.

The Ruger M77 Mark II sheet metal box is roomy enough for a 3+1 fourshooter in .458 WinRuger.
The thick-walled, integral steel box of the Whitworth Mauser is a little tighter, making it a 2+1 threeshooter in .458 WinRuger.

That factory CZ 550 Magnum in .458 Win. or .458 Lott is 9 lbs 2 oz empty, unscoped, in the Kevlar/Aramid stock.

Now, for the Featherweight .458 Win. on a Pre-'64 M70 .300 H&H action:
It only holds three down in the box with some room to spare with .458 Win., though it holds four down in .375 H&H.
The thicker-bulleted necks of the cases crowd it more than the .375 H&H shoulders.
However, it easily holds three of the .458 WinRuger cases, so it is a 3+1 fourshooter in either .458 Win. or .458 WinRuger.

So, I am now thinking of doing away with my CZ .458 Lott for a CZ .458 Win. sixshooter (6+1 seven shooter by the to-be-avoided, extractor-stressing pinch),
and a 6.75# .458 Win Pre-'64 fourshooter (3+1), using a virgin No. 4 Sporter contour barrel.
The former could be rechambered to a .458 WinRuger 6-shooter.
The latter could be rechambered to a .458 WinRuger 4-shooter.
But I sure hope I never have to do another .458 WinRuger.
The sacrifice of one .458 Win. to .458 WinRuger was almost too much to bear.

Just some notes on trying dummies in various rifle magazines, FOR THE MISSION.
Doing good ain't got no end.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Trigger Finger:
Yup , lot of gloves and mitts !
I was born a displaced Alaskan. Had to rectify that.

Maybe others have, I have not ever had the electronic reticle light ever break down in any ir scope I've had.
Can you verify that the eye relief on the 1-4. Nikon is 4 " on 1-4 power ?

What Rip shows is in line with Opticsplanet's figures, and I have seen them diverge from makers' claims on occasion.

The shortening of the eye relief from 1 to 4x is not bad in comparison with some of the good old German scopes of 50 years ago which might be 120mm at 1x but 65mm at 4x. And if the eye box is flexible enough to use at five inches (127mm), that's great. We've got a Kahles Helia C 1.1-4x (maybe 10yo) with constant eye relief but if you move back from the sweet spot it suddenly shrinks to the exit pupil.

Test the 458 WinRuger.

You may not need to cry at all. I, for one, would enjoy the idea of walking the forest with a 400gn at 2600fps. It makes those warthogs at 250-275 yards 'meat on table.'

Glassed and ranged quite a few of those yesterday at the Arusha National Park.

Doing good Men ! I have a temporary moritorium on spending. My wife and I found a perfect little piece on property we are in the process of buying.
New stock and scopes are on hold till after closing.
We are scratching together everything we can.

I'm wondering about the JB Weld being used on the scope mounts. How permanent is it? and if removed, does it take the blueing with it? I'm asking because I have a rifle that has rings supposed to be 26mm but using a 26mm scope do not get tight enough to hold the scope in place under recoil. I've tried stoning the split rings to reduce diameter but it just makes them out-of-round and also various shims wrapped around the scope to tighten, but nothing has been suitable. I'm wondering what would happen if I coated the scope with bedding release stuff and put some JB Weld on the rings, then clamped the scope in the rings.

Would that work to keep the scope in place with out making it a permanent attachment?

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I'm wondering about the JB Weld being used on the scope mounts. How permanent is it? and if removed, does it take the blueing with it? I'm asking because I have a rifle that has rings supposed to be 26mm but using a 26mm scope do not get tight enough to hold the scope in place under recoil. I've tried stoning the split rings to reduce diameter but it just makes them out-of-round and also various shims wrapped around the scope to tighten, but nothing has been suitable. I'm wondering what would happen if I coated the scope with bedding release stuff and put some JB Weld on the rings, then clamped the scope in the rings.

Would that work to keep the scope in place with out making it a permanent attachment?

I don't use JB Weld (or similar) like Ron but a 2 part epoxy glue we call Araldite in Australia. I am sur you will have something similar. It does not set rock hard, perhaps something like a hardy nylon. It is also used for "glue ins" on accuracy rifles where the action is glued to the bedding.

Mild heat will soften it and mount crews screw out.

Trichloroethane will take it off with q few applications.

On 378s and 460s I have used Araldite to glue the scope to the rings and no release agent.

If you want to bed a scope to rings then Devcon Titanium is good and with release agent. After a day of so scope is removed and then you heat cure the rings with boiling water for 10 minutes or so. Just insert the action vertically into can of boiling water..Devcon Titanium heat cured is about as hard as aluminium, not a special alloy but like the aluminium in saucepan etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
Test the 458 WinRuger.
You may not need to cry at all ...

This reminds me of the punchline of a joke I heard my father tell, about 50 years ago:
"Patience jackass, patience."
I am working this .458 WinRuger schtick, just like Ross Stayfried worked his .458 Winchester Defiance schtick. For THE MISSION!
Hate mail welcome.

This one chambers nicely, without resistance, no shoulder bulge. Of course it is a single-shot loader in the Whitworth,
but the loaded rounds if unfired can be ejected from that 3.4"-boxed, standard action just fine:



Rip ...

Here is my proposed fire-forming load to workup to 2600 fps.
It chambers snugly at the shoulder, just a slight stiffness in closing the bolt of the rifle.
It ought to make for the prettier brass like the one above for some HV loads.
This one was done without annealing.
I will anneal a batch of new brass for the initial necking up and fire-forming.
It will be improved by that, look better than this:

quote:

Originally posted by Ray B:
I'm wondering about the JB Weld being used on the scope mounts. How permanent is it? and if removed, does it take the blueing with it?
I have removed a few scope bases that were J-B Welded to actions. Used a propane torch to the bases with barreled action out of stock and wrapped in wet towels, with only the bases exposed. Try the screws as you heat.
I am skeptical of the heat resistance claims of J-B Weld. Seems to be like any other epoxy. No bluing loss underneath, with the few times I have removed it.
In fact I never had to remove it unless I was getting the rifle rebarreled, to clear the action for use of vise and wrench.

I'm asking because I have a rifle that has rings supposed to be 26mm but using a 26mm scope do not get tight enough to hold the scope in place under recoil. I've tried stoning the split rings to reduce diameter but it just makes them out-of-round and also various shims wrapped around the scope to tighten, but nothing has been suitable. I'm wondering what would happen if I coated the scope with bedding release stuff and put some JB Weld on the rings, then clamped the scope in the rings.

I use RTV silicone adhesive (clear or black) when the rings are a good fit, but if they are loose as yours, the epoxy bedding of the rings to the scope with release agent on the scope sounds like a winner. Masking tape on rest of scope and rags and Q-tips wetted with vinegar or gunscrubber will clean up any ooze before it hardens.
J-B Weld has a consistency that is easy to work with.

Would that work to keep the scope in place with out making it a permanent attachment?
With release agent on the screws and mating surfaces of the rings, you ought to be able to do it so the rings come apart, fall off the scope after hardening.

And good advice from Mike.

Rip ...

Have you tried bits of rubber from the fingers of rubber gloves, Mike?

If using Araldite on a scope, I'd look for one of the older ones that is only good to 50 C. It might not be great on summer hunts, esp. if left in a hot car, but you might actually get it off without cooking the scope.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
Have you tried bits of rubber from the fingers of rubber gloves, Mike?

If using Araldite on a scope, I'd look for one of the older ones that is only good to 50 C. It might not be great on summer hunts, esp. if left in a hot car, but you might actually get it off without cooking the scope.

No, I never tried the rubber gloves.

With the scopes/Araldite the scope just pops out and without effort, no heat required.

I have never had trouble with Araldite and heat in the summer outback. On "glue ins" mine have been to RTM Alloy stocks and the action (barrel off) and sock together put in front of electric radiator. The Araldite that way forms an extremely thin glue line. I used to have 4 the RTM Allow stocks and all done as repeaters on Rem 700s and one with a Magnum bolt face action and have had up to 358 STA and 375 and no recoil lug and no problem.

However, I did a couple of the stock with Ciba-Geigy and from memory the number was K138 which was listed as an industrial glue. Very thin like Araldite and odd mixing ratio. It set extremely hard, almost porcelain like. However, the rifles would not shoot as well using it for "glue ins" to Devcon bedding as the standard shitty Araldite.

Way back about 1970 or so I had a Sako 375 I bedded in K230 which was commonly used for bedding and a Ciba-Geigy product and was a 50/50 and easily coloured. In fact Meury Enterprises sold tubes of different colours. Shooting mid summer at Coonamble the action set back very slightly as the K230 would soften a tiny bit at 65 C.

quote:

I am skeptical of the heat resistance claims of J-B Weld.

It will withstand a 440 degree oven temperature at least a couple cycles if not more.

Thanks y'all for all the interesting MISSION support

quote:

Originally posted by Cougarz:

quote:

I am skeptical of the heat resistance claims of J-B Weld.

It will withstand a 440 degree oven temperature at least a couple cycles if not more.

That observation is quite in line with my estimation of the J-B Weld, though their package says it can stand up to 550 degrees F,
and I can beat that with a propane torch, and wet towels.

Rip ...