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Very interesting bit of marketing sort of like Cabela's and Bass Pro Shop. I think I will get some Ramshot X-Terminator next time I see it. If there is a Ramshot equivalent of AA-2460 ...  Rip ... | |||
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Nice, Thanks for the leg work RIP, appreciated, I am one of the stricken that has to do without AA [Western?] powders, they're unobtanium in these parts, the lower pressures with them do indeed look very nice, 'and' if they're temp stable too boot it really is a hard pill to have to swallow to load the 458WM without them. BTW, I've read writing like yours for near 35 years now, you wouldn't happen to be one of those PHD lab coat guys would you? ; ] | |||
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RIP; For THE MISSION: some tests of the 480 DGX (pre-bonding) from my Ruger #1; temp +7*C; Win brass and WLRM primers. Fired 21 May, 2019; 67 grains RL-15 = 1798 fps (instrumental -- add 15 for correction to MV.) My goal was to duplicate a mild load fired from my former Ruger #1, .45-70 LT. That velocity from the .45-70 LT shot into a ragged hole at 100. Fired June 7/19: Temp @ +12*C; 84 grains H335; WLRM; COL = 3.54" (not compressed); 2326 fps corrected to MV Fired June 11/19: Temp @ +21*C/70*F; 82 grains H4895 (max, compressed)2353 fps/5900 ft-lbs, corrected to MV. COL = 3.585" As mentioned, my pre-bonded 480 DGX are 1.34" All that for the "What it's Worth" column  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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I tried the Max 2460 loads noted in this data with a 500 DGX s few years ago. Oheler 35 Chrono Browning Safari grade 24": 80F It was about 65 FPS slower than the data noted here. The 2230 load I have used for years was spot on relative to the data here. Thought I would gain something the 2460. Did not happen with my firearm. Still with 2230..in 458WM standard form. I took a 500 gr inter bond to 2225 FPS with 73 gr 2230 @ 90F A 500 swift to 2180 FPS with 73 gr 2230 @ 70F A 500 swift to 2203 FPS with 73.5 Gr. 2230 @ 70F with no pressure indications. I wanted non compressed crimped loads. Fast enough for me. I really like the 450 Swift approaching 2300 FPS with 2230. EZ
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"Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Nah, just an old MD burnt-out by over 40 years in the fire. Working on a PhD in Gunnacology now. Rip ... | |||
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That is some good info there EZ. That AA-2460 has been reformulated since 2016. You might find it different if you try it now. Maybe I heard you report on this slowness of AA-2460 previously, maybe why I never tried it until I got a heavier bullet like that 544-gr FNGC. Glad I finally tried it. Yes, 2 grains more AA-2460 than AA-2230 might make for compressed AA-2460 versus non-compressed AA-2230, to get to the same velocity with a particular bullet weight. But the AA-2460 might do it at lower pressure. So, I like it for "tropical loads" and heavy bullet loads. I doubt I will use it much for 400- to 500-grainers, AA-2230 shines there for sure, less likely to be compressed. But for 480-grain tropical loads and heavier-than-500-grain loads AA-2460 seems perfect. Rip ... | |||
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Worth a lot in gunnacology circles. Thanks. Rip ... | |||
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RIP; That non-bonded 480 DGX completely penetrated two boxes of media (hard-cover books and dry magazines), plus two 1 & 1/2" planks (total = 15.5 inches) before being intercepted by a rock ledge. It left a perfectly round .458" imprint on the rock. Never found the bullet though. That was from the .45-70 Ruger LT at a bit over 1800 fps MV. Distance to face of 1st box was 5 yards. In contrast to that, a 500gr Speer GS only penetrated 6.5" into the fist box, losing 38% initial weight at 310grs. (One of the 350 TSX penetrated to the last panel of the 2nd. box and retained 100% weight.) The 500gr Speer was leaving the muzzle at about the same speed as the 480 DGX. I did a ballistic profile of the 480 DGX at an MV of 1810 fps, and a B.C. of .285; at 500 yards it's still making about 1229 fps under "moose hunting conditions" of the "Far North". As you say, that would work like a FT solid and penetrate from "stem to stern", or visa versa, on a moose (or elk) at 1229 fps impact. That is, if one could hit a moose in its vitals at that range with a drop of nearly 7 ft, and sighted at +3.3" at 100. Just hold 3/4 moose high! I'll be getting more of those 480 DGX (bonded, I hope) somewhere "down the road"; God willing. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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Oooops! Mistake of memory! That's at 300 yards... NOT 500!! Holding 3/4 moose high is at 400 -- still enough ooomph for moose/elk, etc. My apologies... Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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RIP, you say you never mail ordered powder before? Well here's your chance. Midway USA has free shipping and free Hazmat on Western Powders (Accurate, Ramshot, Norma) until Aug. 31 with a $99 purchase. It only takes 4 of the one pound cans to make the $99 threshold. The coupon code is AUGUSTPOWDER | |||
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Admiral, I will do that, thanks. 8 pounds of AA-2460 on the way. | |||
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Bob, I must be regaining my sanity. The 480-grainer at 2150 fps and tropical load pressure is the current bee in my bonnet. Classic 450 Nitro Express, the game changer. If the British hadn't banned the .45-cal in the colonies circa 1907, there would not have been such a huge redundancy of double rifles of other calibers. I can fix this Lyman cast bullet by casting it harder and sizing it .461" in 92/5/2/1 alloy with two coats of powder-coat:  I never got that bullet sorted out before. Can do now. Have learned some lessons from the Saeco "544-grain" FNGC. Rip ... | |||
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The "480-grainer" is the only gas check here:  | |||
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Lyman's take on the .458 WIN:  | |||
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Here is the interesting part on the next page:  | |||
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But wait, Lyman also has a BP/muzzleloader bullet of same diameter as the .45-Rifle line-up. It is the one on the right below:  | |||
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The "Parker Hale Whitworth" bullet harkening back to the muzzleloader origins of the .458 WIN:  No metallic cartridge handloading data for that one in the Lyman manual. We have to fix that deficiency. But that semi-spitzer/roundnose gas-checked "480-grainer" with a BC of .477 will be easier to get on a moose at 400 yards. Rip ... | |||
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What next.   | |||
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tsturm, Thanks for THE MISSION support. We are winning. All the SAAMI .458 Lott infidels have turned tail and left the battlefield. From here out it will be a game of Whack-A-Mole if any of them pop up from their holes.   I picked up that Lyman mould for the PH-W 475-grainer years ago with a few others whilst browsing at BIFF'S GUNWORLD on Dixie Highway, just north of the Knob Creek Machine Gun Shoot. Biff is the patriarch of the "Guntucky" crew.  I have never used the mould, thought of it as an intermediate-weight bullet I hadn't any use for just yet. I now see that it is perfect for a SAAMI-satisfying 480-grainer at 2150 fps. Full Nitro Express. Top of the desired velocity range for a cast bullet, pressure lowering weight, tropical! Completes the circle from Joseph Whitworth to Alexander Henry to John Rigby to Winchester Arms and back to Whitworth. Seating depth of 0.410" ought to make for about 0.840" of throat-filling nose projection from a 2.500" case: 3.340" COL Use it at close range as a charge stopper for any dangerous varmints, or a brush-huntin' deer and hog buster. The pointier 480-grainer with supposed .477 BC for moose at 400 yards, might not be restricted to SAAMI specs. Hopefully they shoot close to same POI at 100 yards. Likely. Yep, back to the loading and shooting benches for testing the heavies and lights with a proper scope, and then this intermediate-weight .458 WINner. Doing good has no end and is its own reward, like Whack-A-Mole. Rip ... | |||
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When the .458 WIN is allowed the same longer action length and the same higher pressure as the SAAMI .458 Lott, the .458 WIN blows the .458 Lott out of the water. The SAAMI .458 Lott is the ship of fools in the real world. Rip ... | |||
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I know something about that but, as with 458WM, I was the baby for a while ... and the other two were girls | |||
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HA! I am a second son and could whip my big brother, but my little brother could whip me, except for in a foot race. He could never catch me.  But really, 4sixteen has got it bassackwards. The .45-70 Gov is the first born, the .458 WIN is the second son, and the .458 Lott is the baby brother of the three. In that family the baby boy or youngest brother is the sissy, unlike in sambarman338's family and my family. Rip ... | |||
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Yes, RIP, I was thinking of the Lott being the baby despite it's size; and though my 'little' sister came a lot later, she finished up the tallest of the three. Have I got an inferiority complex? No, but both my sisters are taller and my daughters have deeper voices  | |||
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Wow 143 posts on a dead subject..Im not a particular fan of the 458 but its probably killed more elephants than RAID has killed bugs, that's worth more than 10,000 posts me thinks! Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Atkinson, Thanks for coming to play. This is the .458 WIN Love Fest, may never end. Sort of like "Mighty Four Five Eight, how do I love thee? Let me count the ways ..." New frontiers in handloading here. Just ask Bob Mitchell, if you don't mind listening to someone younger than you. Rip ... | |||
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Paul, Another illustration of how the Double-Seyfried-Schtick 2-Piece Picatinny (DSS-2PP) allows great practicality in scope mounting. Here are a couple of short scopes mounted low and well forward, and front scope ring nowhere near crushing the objective lens housing: 2.5X20mm Leupold Ultralightweight 6.5 oz 1X20mm Sightron, 3 oz. heavier, with greater FOV and image brightness, actual power ~1.25X | |||
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Leupold 2.5X, could be mounted further forward, but not desirable due to effects on FOV/tunnel vision:  | |||
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Sightron 1X, as far forward as possible due to the step-flare of tube in front of ocular bell, acts as recoil stop against back of rear ring:  | |||
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The two scopes together for size comparison:  The secret to scoping a .458 WIN: Have a backup scope, lots of backup scopes. Rip ... | |||
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 Since the Pre-'64 M70 H&H action is just a .30-06-length action opened up at the factory, the Classic/FN H&H-length action is longer and a few ounces heavier. My .458 WIN LongCOL featherweight will be a little under 7 pounds and kick a bit, An African rear sight might get it up to 7 pounds. Rip ... | |||
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Here is another scope option with the DSS-2PP base, a Leupold 2.5x28mm Scout scope. It is amazingly just an ounce heavier than the 2.5x20mm Ultralight (6.5 oz). That would make it 7.5 oz without the rings and lens caps. 13 oz in Low QRW rings and flipup lens covers. 12 oz for the 2.5x20mm Ultralight. But I repeat myself. It could be moved one Picatinny slot further forward, but not necessary. This has enough eye relief for the worst stock crawler, and the FOV is maximized at this location:  Rip ... | |||
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RIP, do any mount bases share common screw-hole distances? I'm toying with buying yet another old FN Mauser .30-06 and converting it to 9.3x62, 425WR or possibly even the 458 WM (though Atkinson disputes their strength for magnums). Anyway, the one I've got my eye on has a Tasco bridge mount in place but the rings have minimal screws and may not stand the recoil. Is anyone else familiar with Tasco bridge mounts? These ones appear to have grub screws in the sides indicating some lateral adjustment, which is important to me. Thanks - SBM | |||
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I am not familiar with those Tasco Bridge Mounts, must be several varieties. I googled and this looks suitable for .22 rimfire:  The rounded cross-slots are not good, they are poor recoil stops. Only 3 base screws instead of 4 is also not good. Show us an image of what you are talking about and I am sure we can pass judgement. Rip ... | |||
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Another DSS-2PP application: Leupold M8 6X36mm Compact. Mitch Carter used a Leupold fixed 6X on his .577 Tyrannosaur and shot one-hole 3-shot groups at 100 yards with maximum loads. Maybe this will hold up, especially with 4 Weaver rings:  | |||
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These Weaver low rings add less than 0.100" to the top of the DSS-2PP, gets sight height down to 1.5":  | |||
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Good thing I beveled off the rear edge of the DSS-2PP, or this would not have worked:  | |||
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Shop mule! Ready to go sheep hunting or paper punching with the .458 WIN, this scope weighs only 8.5 oz. The 4 Weaver rings and the flip-up lens covers add only 6 more ounces:  Phil's .458 WIN Ol'Ugly used 2 Weaver rings with the 6.5-ounce 2.5X20 Leupold. 4 of those "steel-strap" rings ought to be able to hold onto an 8.5-ounce scope. Rip ... | |||
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Thanks RIP, the mounts for centrefires have the holes at the ends of the bridge, so it's not that top one is not anything like it. From others I've seen online (but can't find just now), I think the Tasco mount is a bit like the Lynx, with capstan-shaped studs sticking up from the base; these are gripped by grub screws in each side of the rings, providing the lateral adjustment. I don't supposed it rates next to your four Weaver rings  I see now your comments in red and guess that if mounts are made for commercial Mausers, the holes for military ones might be in the same spot, though provision for the clip boss might vary this. However, now you mention it, the Tasco' bridge over the boss does look a bit like the one on Leupold's STD, so maybe there is a chance they would be similar. I think the STD base I have on another FN Mauser has only one screw at the back, too. | |||
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I have a Modelo Argentino .338-06 that has one of those three-hole (one hole at rear of base, two at front), one-piece, Leupold bases for the JR-type rings, which at least has windage adjust on the rear ring. I have left it alone, have not got a DSS-2PP figured out for that one yet! A recoil stop on the bottom of a one-piece Picatinny rail, J-B WELD, and 8x40 screws would make that solitary rear base screw less of a worry. I suppose the hole spacing on the milsurp Mausers could be variable, depending on what jig the gunsmith used. Good luck getting yours sorted out. Maybe you can design and fabricate one for a milsurp, three-hole Mauser, similar to the drawing in your book? Hey, lookie here: Are there two holes at the rear of this base? More than one way to skin a cat:  https://www.emma-rifles.co.uk/...-piece-bridge-mount/ "HILVER / BURRIS / TASCO ONE PIECE BRIDGE MOUNT. Stamped AUSTRALIA and 1954 this is to take windage adjustable rings. Unfortunately no box or other clue as to the exact action this is designed for. Looking at the screw positions it is similar to an Enfield rail but the action profile is different and the holes are slightly out of line. I suspect it may be from an underlever action (?) with the high recess / cut out to the back of the 2 rear action screw holes which are approx. 10mm centres. The two smaller front mount fixing holes are actually off set to the left hand side and approx. 7mm apart. Google brings up several possible options, one of which is an Enfield No4 MK1. If the base is ‘reversed’ this may well fit but at this moment in time I do not have a rifle in stock to check against. ANY ACCURATE information on these or any other mounts is always welcome. If anyone has an original suppliers action / mounts list a copy would be wonderful! " | |||
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