Got my 300-grain TSX bullets from MidwayUSA, they made good on the sale price even with the backorder.
They will be loaded with H4198 like Bob does it.

Then the 480-grain DGX loaded with AA-2460. I won't run out of that thanks be for the 8 pounds of that from MidwayUSA also, during the AUGUSTPOWDER sale.

The 300-grainers might not be "Tropical" loads, but the 480-grainers will be, and 3.340" COL or less.
Then on to more cast bullet loads: 486-grainers and 544-grainers.
The 480-grain DGX loads will be the basis for the 486-grain cast bullet loads, at similar velocity.
We already have the 544-grain cast bullet loads,
just need to shoot them for accuracy,
without breaking the scope.

.458 WIN Bobbarrella CZ-Shilen will work at establishing some standards of uniformity for these bullets,
with the help of a chronograph and that 6X-Four-Ring-Circus.
It's a backup for the 3-9x40mm Nikons, and 2.5x20mm Leupolds on all my .458 WINs.
Repairable or replaceable as warranted all.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
The Weaver erector tube spring is ingenious and might be the strongest system of all.
It is like a long piece of spring-tempered, heavy-gauge wire folded to make a cradle under the front of the erector tube,
and then two legs run along the underside of the erector tube, bowing out as with flat springs, about 90-degrees apart, so they respectively oppose the elevation and windage adjustments.
Then at the rear/ocular end, each leg of the spring gets poked into a hole in the side of the erector tube, to anchor the spring solidly to the erector tube.
Apparently a heavy yoke runs along the top of the erector tube, and has an articulated attachment to the outer scope tube at the rear/ocular end.

That's an interesting analysis, RIP, but I'm not sure Weaver even used that spring for very long. His drawing showed a rather slim erector tube as it would have to be to accommodate that spring around it and I must admit that until you commented, I'd assumed Weaver reduced the diameter of the erector tube for the drawing to make its action more obvious. (Looking at some of Kollmorgen's patent drawings, it's hard to tell that the erector tube is not a tight fit in the outer scope.)

However, though that spring looks like a comforting cradle, it holds an ugly, misbegotten mini-me that has, like the cockroach, somehow managed to leave descendants everywhere.

Certainly, Weaver eventually found some problem with the original concept and this appears to have been wear or damage to the bearing surfaces, hence their move to the carbide balls of their Micro-Trac T-Model scopes.

Whatever springs are used in image-movement scopes*, they are the whipping boy for a concept that flies in the face of physics. Though leverage is normally concerned with transferring movement into power at or near the fulcrum, the pivot can also predicate outcomes at the other end. When a sporting rifle is fired, it moves up as it recoils to the rear because the pivot point is below the line of the barrel. This invites trouble when makers put another pivot inside the rear of the rifle's scope.

Hingeing a long object inside the scope, with the bulk of the object suspended ahead of the hinge, guarantees that the inertia of the object's front end will cut it loose when the rifle recoils.

Old reticle-movement scopes have springs too, but they only hold up a small reticle ring against the turret screws. Properly located, this ring is held securely against the main, longitudinal recoil thrust and has no leverage aspect wrenching at it as the barrel rises. These old springs can come in various forms and many are connected to the outer scope, not the moveable reticle. Even if some springs can be twisted as well as compressed, the punishment they might suffer under recoil is probably less than 5% that of those in scopes with constantly centred reticles.

*Other than Pecar Champion types

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I think that turning the scope around to get the reticle in the centre was just a way to make sure the scope was mounted right after someone had fiddled with the knobs.

Getting the reticle centred is a wise place to start, to save optical problems and running out of clicks, but the usual method I hear of now is to count the clicks from end to end then wind back half way.

No, I am talking about where the scope/mount alignment to the bore is fucked so aa centred scope will be way off.

And I am not talking about rotating the scope but rotating the front lens and in particular cheaper scope where the optical centre does not match the actual physical centre of the lens.

You've got me there, Mike. Some old Tasco scopes seemed to be all right but I've also seen some I'd be reluctant to give my grandson to strap on a broomstick.

The old ones were quite good. I am not talking about optics and as I mentioned the optical centre of the objective not being the mechanical centre had a plus.

Actually with the optics themselves I have never been real fussy. In fact a mate mine reckons I would be OK with some sort of shitty plastic for lenses He on the other hand is very fussy but I just don't see much difference except with high power scopes.

Great sharing of thought and knowledge here indeed. Making a case for the short, light scopes life expectancy.
One of the "problems" people often had with Burris was the limited mounting distance. There was, is, not much room in front of the adjusting screws to put rings. I now see that as an advantage.

Yes, Fury, space to put your mounts can be a problem. I seem to recall some makers even have different versions of much the same scope, to cope with differing needs.

Then there's the problem of some scopes being too long. As Atkinson has pointed out, one of the biggest threats to keeping zero is bumps to the scope.

And, since the objective end tends to be farther away from protective control, that's where the bad bumps happen. So, for reliability we should choose the smallest, shortest scope applicable, with the least amount protruding ahead of the front mount.

On European break-action rifles, the problem can be the opposite, of course. There you see extreme ocular-end protrusion.

Paul, Mike, and Fury01,

Good Morning from Western Kentucky.
About 4:30 AM Friday here, CST USA.
It is 15 hours into the future in Victoria, Australia, about 7:30 PM Friday, 8-23-2019.
Thanks for the scope-scholarly support of THE MISSION.

I tossed and turned with a dream/nightmare of a sub-8-pound bare-weight .458 WIN LongCOL on a Model 70 Winchester Classic: 3.6" box.
I have ordered a McGowen No.4 stainless sporter that is supposed to be 0.650" diameter at either 26" or 28" length, 1:14" twist.
I just know it is as light as I want to go.
It is going to have the Wisner African rear sight and an NECG banded front sight,
so I might even have to make the barrel shorter than 25" to make weight.
I worry less about making any sort of minimum muzzle diameter at whatever length.
It will do.
But the barrel has to be long enough, with sights, to balance, or not, a 2.0-pound B&C stock, red with black web. Ooh-lah-lah.
Might have to use that Aluminum EGW Picatinny chopped into a DSS-2PP scope base too, or not,
to stay under 8 pounds without scope and ammo.
Gotta have a scope base, so that is counted in the bare/empty weight of the rifle.
Attaching it with lag bolts and Quikrete is the plan.

Rip ...

Good morning RIP, and everyone;

For THE MISSION: Updates.

August 16/19 (Friday): same load as previous week -- 300gr TSXs = 2975 fps (corrected to MV) 81.8 grains H4198, Rem brass, WLRM primers. Bright sunny day; temp: +19C/66*F.
Also: 330gr Barnes Banded (no longer available): 70 grains H4198 = 2620 fps (corrected to MV) -- 3 into a ragged hole @ 100 yds.

Note: The previous week (Aug.6/19), the same load for the 300 TSXs gave 2935 fps (corrected avg.), but it was a very dark day! A difference of 40 fps from the v. dark day to the bright sunny day!

August 20/19 (Tuesday of this week): 450 TSXs over 82 grains H4895 - new can. (max compressed load at 3.72" COL, not crimped) = 2383 fps (corrected to MV - a very good consistent load - 4x firing of Rem brass. WLRM primers. No unusual stress on the brass.) Ambient conditions: bright sun/temp:+22C/71-72*F.

Same day as above: 470gr hardcast with GC: 68 grains H4895, Rem brass 4x firing, WLRM primers; COL @ 3.29" = 2120 fps (corrected to MV). Actual instrumental = 2097 fps and 2119 fps. Apart from a small cloud of smoke, they shot well, but not on target as the rifle was sighted for the 300 TSX load.

My current thinking is: I'd like to give the 470gr hardcast more tries for accuracy. If good, then they will be sighted for a bear hunt this fall. I might slow them a bit if needed for good accuracy. If good enough, they'll be used as is.

RIP: Seriously, may I commend you again for being such a master craftsman and creator with a great imagination!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
RIP: Seriously, may I commend you again for being such a master craftsman and creator with a great imagination!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Where Ron really leads the pack is his photography and posting pictures and also old articles. He is a one man resource and in addition we are fortunate that he also puts in the effort.

Well folks

reamed my left hand smithson 22 inch 458 just to day five down one in the tube one day at a time down here in utah it's loose in the chamber not battle rifle lose but dam close to that

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
... I tossed and turned with a dream/nightmare of a sub-8-pound bare-weight .458 WIN ...

Rip ...

I can understand that, RIP.

I met JFE at the range yesterday and he let me try his new, customised CZ 458WM, which seemed pretty light but apparently weighs 9lb. Well, I've fired 458s before without complaint, except from my thumb-strummed nose on using a Lott, but even from my improvised standing rest this new one rattled my back teeth with the factory 510-grain SP.

We have another mate who uses a 7.5lb Brno .458. He finds the recoil no worries when hunting sambar but I'd hate to have to sight it in.

Were I to shoot much with a 458 at the range, I'd want it to have the ballistics and mass of an English 450NE.

Thanks Bob:

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
August 16/19 (Friday): same load as previous week -- 300gr TSXs = 2975 fps (corrected to MV) 81.8 grains H4198, Rem brass, WLRM primers. Bright sunny day; temp: +19C/66*F.
Also: 330gr Barnes Banded (no longer available): 70 grains H4198 = 2620 fps (corrected to MV) -- 3 into a ragged hole @ 100 yds.

Noted: 330-grainer works great with a modest 70 grains of H4198 for 2630 fps in 24" Magnaported .458 WIN barrel. What was that COL?

Note: The previous week (Aug.6/19), the same load for the 300 TSXs gave 2935 fps (corrected avg.), but it was a very dark day! A difference of 40 fps from the v. dark day to the bright sunny day!

Chronograph variation with ambient lighting changes? Might be so.
My Caldwell Chronograph G2 has been restored to me. It has artificial lighting built in.
Use of that might make for less variation?
I am not ready for Magneto-Speed or Lab Radar yet. Not until I kill 4 more optical chronographs.

I have loaded up some of those 300-gr TSX bullets with H4198, 3 shots each from 76.0 to 81.0 grains.
Hope to shoot tomorrow.
Bob may push the envelope, but I work just short of the ragged edge of the envelope.
Bob is my envelope.

My loads will be different from "Bob Loads" in using Hornady brass and F-215 primers instead of Remington brass and WLRM primers.
When I went to load I had already primed all my brass with F-215, did not want to waste them.
I have noted little difference between WLRM primer and F-215 in the past.

I did use a drop tube.
Also I seated and crimped in two operation.
So I started off at 3.325" COL for the 76.0 grain loads, and by the time I got to 81.0 grains, using the same die settings,
the COL ended up at 3.335" for the compressed 81.0-grain charge. COL average for all charges therefore 3.330".
Who knows the pressure?
I will stop shooting if any funny business as I work up, in my rifle, Bobbarrella Shilen-CZ with 25" barrel.


August 20/19 (Tuesday of this week): 450 TSXs over 82 grains H4895 - new can. (max compressed load at 3.72" COL, not crimped) = 2383 fps (corrected to MV - a very good consistent load - 4x firing of Rem brass. WLRM primers. No unusual stress on the brass.) Ambient conditions: bright sun/temp:+22C/71-72*F.

My 450-grain North Fork OFP solid/monometal copper loads in the past:
H4895 81.0 grains, 3.485" COL, Hornady brass/F-215, 58*F, 24-7/8" CZ barrel: 2382 fps MV (2370 fps 5-yard instrumental)
AA-2230 81.0 grains, 3.485" COL, Hornady brass/F-215, 63*F, 24-7/8" CZ barrel: 2411 fps MV (2399 fps 5-yard instrumental)
With hBN coated 450-grain TSX:
AA-2230 84.0 grains, 3.680" COL, Hornady brass/F-215, 41*F, 25" Shilen barrel: 2469 fps MV (2457 fps 5-yard instrumental)

Same day as above: 470gr hardcast with GC: 68 grains H4895, Rem brass 4x firing, WLRM primers; COL @ 3.29" = 2120 fps (corrected to MV). Actual instrumental = 2097 fps and 2119 fps. Apart from a small cloud of smoke, they shot well, but not on target as the rifle was sighted for the 300 TSX load.

No doubt, H4895 is a great powder for heavy bullets, cast or jacketed. I am going to try AA-2460 next outing with the 480-grain DGX.
Then I will use it with hardcast (486-gr RNGC) for comparison to H4895.

My current thinking is: I'd like to give the 470gr hardcast more tries for accuracy. If good, then they will be sighted for a bear hunt this fall. I might slow them a bit if needed for good accuracy. If good enough, they'll be used as is.

I gotta hunt with hardcast lead too. Selous used them on everything before he knew better.

RIP: Seriously, may I commend you again for being such a master craftsman and creator with a great imagination!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
you are most kind to your student.

Mike,

You too, thanks. I am working on a PhD in Gunnacology, area of specialization: .458-caliber Rifle.
Thesis will prove .458 Winchester Magnum is best.

Rip ...

Stradling,

Great to have your stream of consciousness rearing its head here again.

quote:

Originally posted by stradling:
Well folks

reamed my left hand smithson 22 inch 458 just to day

Pictures, or it didn't happen.

five down one in the tube

Cool, a sixshooter.

one day at a time down here in utah

Nice place to be. Sure as hell beats Colorado. I hope your State Cops stop any vehicles with Colorado plates. Always grounds for reasonable suspicion.

it's loose in the chamber not battle rifle lose but dam close to that

Well, I guess that is all good then.
Don't be a stranger.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I met JFE at the range yesterday and he let me try his new, customised CZ 458WM, which seemed pretty light but apparently weighs 9lb.

The usual weights for CZ factory rifles, all using the same "slim" barrel profile and the Lux walnut stocks which are lighter than the Phat American walnuts and laminates (add about a half pound for those):
.375 H&H: 9.5 lbs.
.416 Rigby: 9.25 lbs.
.458 WIN: 9.0 lbs.

Well, I've fired 458s before without complaint, except from my thumb-strummed nose on using a Lott, but even from my improvised standing rest this new one rattled my back teeth with the factory 510-grain SP.

Get a bite-guard mouthpiece like boxers do.

We have another mate who uses a 7.5lb Brno .458. He finds the recoil no worries when hunting sambar but I'd hate to have to sight it in.

Wow! that is light for a BRNO. Is that a medium action or a long action (ZKK 602)?

Were I to shoot much with a 458 at the range, I'd want it to have the ballistics and mass of an English 450NE.

What do we reckon those classic British double rifles weighed?
About 10 to 11 pounds? Some modern .450 NE rifles might be under 10 lbs?
The forerunner .450 BPE/NFBPE 3-1/4" rifles with drawn brass after 1872, varied a lot, about 8 to 10 pounds.

Even an 8-pound .458 WIN (bare/empty/dry) will be getting close to 10 pounds when scoped and loaded, field ready.
Hence the foolish idea to get one under 8 pounds bare/empty/dry, to beat 10 pounds field ready.
It may be capable of greatly exceeding the original Cordite .450 NE ballistics,
480-grain bullet at 2150 fps from a 28"-barreled double rifle at 17.0 tpsi ((38,080 psi).
But you can easily govern the .458 WIN down to those external ballistics at low-for-bolt-action pressures,
in a much shorter barrel than 28"!
Win, win, with the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

The Unholy Grail of the .458 WIN Crusade: Under-8-pound rifle.

M70 Classic long action with 3.6" box: 3 pounds
B&C Medalist stock to fit: 2 pounds
Limit for 24" barrel with iron sights: 3 pounds
Total: 8 pounds.

Get Medium Sporter #4, McGowen contour .458 stainless barrel:
Estimated weight with full knoxform and cut to 24" length = 2.65 pounds, with 24" muzzle diameter of 0.687".
Add weight of Wisner African rear sight and NECG banded front sight.
Add weight of scope base.
???
Chop off the knoxform to a featherweight contour, and shorten the barrel at the muzzle as needed to make it happen.
Chop-chop.

Rip ...

Jah, 300-grainer at 2900 fps is .378 Wby territory.

Rip ...

You touch on an interesting subject to me. It has been a while since there has been much discussion on big bores and length/weight.
How light can you get single shot vs a bolt for DG? Michael 458 was big on short and light and I think more people need to look at the merits of this ethos. What can a DG set up weigh in 458 Win vs 375 HH vs 400 Whelen vs B&M vs some other short action wildcat? Does anyone have a sub 7lb. 400 Whelen? I know SAFARIKID has or had some serious big bores that are light and IIRC he had a light 458 WM but his guns tend to be costly but great value customs. Bijou Creek has and can come up with some good stuff for this category of boomers.

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You touch on an interesting subject to me. It has been a while since there has been much discussion on big bores and length/weight.
How light can you get single shot vs a bolt for DG? Michael 458 was big on short and light and I think more people need to look at the merits of this ethos. What can a DG set up weigh in 458 Win vs 375 HH vs 400 Whelen vs B&M vs some other short action wildcat? Does anyone have a sub 7lb. 400 Whelen? I know SAFARIKID has or had some serious big bores that are light and IIRC he had a light 458 WM but his guns tend to be costly but great value customs. Bijou Creek has and can come up with some good stuff for this category of boomers.

8lb. sounds good to me.

That is part of the attraction of a 416 Ruger out-of-the-box, 7.8 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338:
I met JFE at the range yesterday and he let me try his new, customised CZ 458WM, which seemed pretty light but apparently weighs 9lb.

The usual weights for CZ factory rifles, all using the same "slim" barrel profile and the Lux walnut stocks which are lighter than the Phat American walnuts and laminates (add about a half pound for those):
.375 H&H: 9.5 lbs.
.416 Rigby: 9.25 lbs.
.458 WIN: 9.0 lbs.

Well, I've fired 458s before without complaint, except from my thumb-strummed nose on using a Lott, but even from my improvised standing rest this new one rattled my back teeth with the factory 510-grain SP.

Get a bite-guard mouthpiece like boxers do.

We have another mate who uses a 7.5lb Brno .458. He finds the recoil no worries when hunting sambar but I'd hate to have to sight it in.

Wow! that is light for a BRNO. Is that a medium action or a long action (ZKK 602)?

Were I to shoot much with a 458 at the range, I'd want it to have the ballistics and mass of an English 450NE.

What do we reckon those classic British double rifles weighed?
About 10 to 11 pounds? Some modern .450 NE rifles might be under 10 lbs?
The forerunner .450 BPE/NFBPE 3-1/4" rifles with drawn brass after 1872, varied a lot, about 8 to 10 pounds.

Even an 8-pound .458 WIN (bare/empty/dry) will be getting close to 10 pounds when scoped and loaded, field ready.
Hence the foolish idea to get one under 8 pounds bare/empty/dry, to beat 10 pounds field ready.
It may be capable of greatly exceeding the original Cordite .450 NE ballistics,
480-grain bullet at 2150 fps from a 28"-barreled double rifle at 17.0 tpsi ((38,080 psi).
But you can easily govern the .458 WIN down to those external ballistics at low-for-bolt-action pressures,
in a much shorter barrel than 28"!
Win, win, with the .458 WIN.

Rip ...

I believe the said 7.5lb Brno is the 602 and I don't recall that he's done anything drastic to lighten it.

My .450/.400 is about 10.25lb and I think .450 NEs are supposed to be a bit heavier than that, maybe 10.5.

Good morning Bob, and good afternoon to the Wizards of Oz down under.

Allow me to present the best I could do yesterday at the public range, it was clouding up when I got there and sprinkling a little rain when I left.
I got error readings on some shots and turned the LED lights of the Caldwell G2 on and got some more errors, then rebooted everything (turn off, wait 30 seconds, turn back on),
and then the chronograph seemed to be working properly, with the artificial lighting.
But the data wipe-out came right on the 80- and 81-grain charges of H4198.
I got the 78.0 and 79.0 readings recorded, which were slightly better in accuracy than the higher charges,
but all showed no pressure signs, for what that is worth.

The Leupold 6x36mm Compact was near spot on by eyeball bore sighting at 50 yards, only a couple of inches of windage adjustment since mounting:
4 nickle-plated Weaver steel straps on the DSS-2PP!
So I fired all the 300-grain TSX bullets with no further adjustments.
Here is the best I got with those:

For THE MISSION, one grain increase of H4198, and 41 fps increase in velocity, and group opens up a bit,
blame the load or blame the nut behind the trigger:



Not as fast as Bob is getting, different primer, different brass, and 0.005" longer COL.
And the variables of fluctuating lighting of the chronograph.
Jeez! I am back to having to shoot 4 optical chronographs before I can justify LAB RADAR on my budget.

So the H4198/300-gr TSX combo was just a little slower than I expected.
However, the AA-2460/480-gr DGX combo was a little faster than I expected, for my "Tropical Load":



That is a 3-shot 0.57-MOA equivalent at 50 yards (multiply group size in inches by 2 and then divide by 1.047 inches per MOA).
Generally, the busier the writing on the target, the more enthusiastic I am about it.

The 480-grain DGX was shooting about 9 inches lower than the 300-grain TSX at 50 yards,
but the windage was right on,
so I one-time adjusted the elevation on the little Leupold 6X and left it there after that.

Finally a try at 100 yards with the 544-gr FNGC, a home-made cast bullet.
It shot about 5 inches low at 100 yards, when the 480-gr DGX was shooting 2 inches high at 50 yards,
no change in scope setting:



The quest continues for a cast bullet to match a jacketed bullet in accuracy, velocity, and with similar trajectory in the .458 WIN, for THE MISSION without end.

Rip ...

So, now I am hot to trot with a 480-ish-grain cast bullet to more closely match the trajectory of the 480-grain DGX & DGS bullets of Hornady.
That might even be useful.

Speaking of trotting, I was stupid enough to go into the woods wearing ankle-high socks and sneakers.
Should have worn lace-up boots, pants bloused, and gaiters sprayed with permethrin!
I got into an awful batch of chiggers or (cringe) the mythical "turkey mite" on August 3, 2019.
Chiggers are larvae of the red bug, I hear, and "turkey mites" are actually larvae of the deer tick, so the experts say.
Well, there were wild turkey feathers galore where I was trotting about.
Something got onto my anklet sock tops and followed them down into my shoes. LITTLE BUGGERS!
Looked like smallpox of the ankles and feet!
I am healed now, with pockmarked ankles:



That was at a private rifle range, out at a farm/hunting property in Kentucky.
For THE MISSION.

How was that for a "trick or treat smell my feet" experience? Enough podiatric parasitology already? Back to gunnacology.
Rifle weights and recoil are always a better topic for discussion than chiggers.

416Tanzan:
take your 7.8-pound .416 Ruger and bore and chamber the barrel to .458 WINRuger and it will be getting darn close to 7.5 pounds, eh?
A re-barrel to .458 WIN with No.4 sporter from McGowen trimmed down to featherweigh contour will surely do it.

Actually, the standard, factory barreled-action weight here is 5.5 pounds:



The factory Zytel and Tupperware stocks weigh 1.5 pounds. Way lighter than the Hogue or laminate stocks.
.416 Ruger Rifle weight with 1.5-pound stock: 7.0 lbs.
Rebarreled to .458 WIN it would be under 7.0 lbs.
Ouch.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Speaking of trotting, I was stupid enough to go into the woods wearing ankle-high socks and sneakers.
Should have worn lace-up boots, pants bloused, and gaiters sprayed with permethrin!
I got into an awful batch of chiggers or (cringe) the mythical "turkey mite" on August 3, 2019.
Chiggers are larvae of the red bug, I hear, and "turkey mites" are actually larvae of the deer tick, so the experts say.
Well, there were wild turkey feathers galore where I was trotting about.
Something got onto my anklet sock tops and followed them down into my shoes. LITTLE BUGGERS!
Looked like smallpox of the ankles and feet!
I am healed now, with pockmarked ankles:



That was at a private rifle range, out at a farm/hunting property in Kentucky.
For THE MISSION.

Looks nasty. I'm torn between saying Get thee to a quackery and 'Physician, heel thyself'.

Rip,
1.04 MOA cast bullet at over 2k FPS; your work is done!! It’s simply alloy density variation past that.
Dang on that etymology experience. Hate those things.

Only slightly off topic, has anyone noticed that Hodgdon lists a load for the 375 H&H (for a "light" companion to your 458) 235gr at 3006 with CFE 223?

Paul,
I have heeled myself.
Permethrin-saturated combat boots next time, long pants and gaiters too!
Deer tick larvae do not usually carry Lyme disease, they have to feed on an infected animal, e.g. mouse or deer, to get infected, IIRC.
There are stirrings about some other tick-borne illnesses possibly being transmitted through the ovaries to the eggs of ticks.
There are more tick-borne illnesses than you can shake a (s)tick at!
I'll get a Lyme test if I get demented, if I can remember to do so after I am demented.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip,
1.04 MOA cast bullet at over 2k FPS; your work is done!! It’s simply alloy density variation past that.
Dang on that etymology experience. Hate those things.

Fury01,
Thanks for THE MISSION support.
It would be done if I did not need to come up with more material for THE MISSION!
Yep, that load deserves a dedicated rifle with no copper fouling its bore.
IIRC you did well with AA-2015 and a 475- to 500-grain cast bullet?
I am thinking 480-ish-grain cast bullet next, to carry on the crusade against the nonbelievers in the .458 WIN, those .458 Lott-toting infidels!
They are in the same class with mosquitoes and ticks.

Use that 480-grain DGX/DGS at 2150 fps, even in a 20-inch barrel,
to match a 480-grain hardcast bullet.
That would be a jolly good trainer and All-Around Game-Getter with cast bullet to erect any shooter's pinky finger.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by pavementends1:
Only slightly off topic, has anyone noticed that Hodgdon lists a load for the 375 H&H (for a "light" companion to your 458) 235gr at 3006 with CFE 223?

CFE prevents that copper fouling?
You are suggesting a set of training wheels for the .458 WIN with 300-grain TSX, using the 235-grain speer in the .375 H&H?
I like it except the Speer's BC is 0.301, quite a bit higher than the 0.230 of the .458/300-grain TSX.
The Barnes .375/235-grain TSX has a BC of 0.270
and would be better at those higher velocities,
not a fragmentation grenade.

CFE might be a good powder to try in the .458 WIN with 300-grain TSX too, eh?
Keep the barrel cleaner so as not to mess with powder-coat-painted cast bullets.

Rip ...

4sixteen,

Thanks for supporting THE MISSION,
by suggesting a good load for the .458 Lott that is over 200 fps slower than a good load for the .458 WIN with same 300-gr TSX bullet.
Though you offer no load specifics for the .458 Lott, that's OK.
Hodgdon's 2019 ANNUAL MANUAL does not show any data for the .458 Lott either.
They do show submaximal loads for the .458 WIN with 300-grain TSX ranging from 2355 fps (30,600 CUP) to 2793 fps (51,300 CUP),
all at 3.200" COL, in a 24" barrel of 1:14" twist,
with CCI-250 primer and Winchester case.

That is way less pressure than the .458 Lott is allowed by SAAMI (62,500 psi) in order to compete with the .458 WIN at lower MAP (60,000 psi).

We like to load the 300-gr TSX in the .458 WIN a little bit longer, adding about 0.130" for COL of 3.325 to 3.335"
(versus the Hodgdon COL of 3.200")
and add a few grains more powder.
Why heck, the more adventurous among us might add even more powder and get pressures up to what is allowed in the .458 Lott.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Paul,
I have heeled myself.
Permethrin-saturated combat boots next time, long pants and gaiters too!
Deer tick larvae do not usually carry Lyme disease, they have to feed on an infected animal, e.g. mouse or deer, to get infected, IIRC.
There are stirrings about some other tick-borne illnesses possibly being transmitted through the ovaries to the eggs of ticks.
There are more tick-borne illnesses than you can shake a (s)tick at!
I'll get a Lyme test if I get demented, if I can remember to do so after I am demented.

Rip ...

Glad to hear you're coming good, Ron.

I don't know much about ticks. Fortunately our sambar country doesn't seem to have them and I don't go near the coast hunting hog deer much.

The scrub cattle I shot in the NT had plenty, though, and big ones, maybe 1cm long. I was told they don't bother people but I know the ones down south do. People say they carry Lyme disease, too, but scientists deny that we have it here.

Rip
If your going to dedicate a rifle to cast, it should be that Ruger #1 you are building. Then push those long red pigs right out till they snuggle with the lands. Dead critters here Rip comes.

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
If your going to dedicate a rifle to cast, it should be that Ruger #1 you are building. Then push those long red pigs right out till they snuggle with the lands. Dead critters here Rip comes.

The 1:18" twist might be even better for the cast bullets.
I had thought of that as a BP/paper-patch rifle, but it might become a "flying red pig" specialist.
It will have some comforting weight to it if 28" of non-tapered octagon barrel can be preserved.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by 4sixteen:
Barnes Manual #1 300gr .458 WM data lists IMR 4895 so used that for reference to develop my .458 Lott hunting load. Objective is to achieve around 2600 fps with the case pretty much full for better speed uniformity. I get good accuracy at 2600 fps with 80.0 gr (safe in my .458 Lott rifle only).

4sixteen,
Thanks for that recipe.

BARNES BULLET RELOADING MANUAL NUMBER ONE
.458 WIN
Winchester case
F-215 primer
(No COL or barrel length specified)
300-gr Barnes Bullet
IMR-4895:
74.0 grains >>> 2367 fps (starting load)
78.0 grains >>> 2573 fps (maximum load)

Switch to .458 Lott case, add 2 more grains of same powder to maximum shortCOL charge of .458 WIN. Get about same velocity. Very sane.
Ought to be safe in any SAAMI .458 Lott rifle.

That would be a very good use for my lone .458 Lott which is 8.0 pounds naked, Ol'Warthog the Whitworth.
But since my Lott is a re-chambered .458 WIN, a .458 Lott Like Jack Built, not the SAAMI .458 Lott,
I won't have to compress the H4198 to compete with Bob's .458 WIN loads, using my .458 Lott,
with same distances from breech face to groove and bore diameters as a SAAMI .458 WIN.
Crimp on first groove of 300-gr TSX for COL of 3.500" in the .458 Lott.
Crimping on the second groove would make it too long for my 3.6" box, which is just barely 3.6" long, opened up by Gunsmith.
For THE MISSION.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
You touch on an interesting subject to me. It has been a while since there has been much discussion on big bores and length/weight. ...

Interesting to me too, especially as applies to .458-caliber rifles capable of .458 WIN performance.

BARREL LENGTH:

Bolt Action: 20" to 25" would do it for me. No more, no less. My various "four-fifties" vary from 25" down to 19.75" for a misbegotten .458 B&M (I ordered 21" from SSK).
But the "Proprietary," Cosmic-Squirrel-Secret-Throated .458 B&M is not capable of .458 WIN performance. It is a toy.

Single Shot/Falling Block: Add 4" to the bolt action lengths, for same overall lengths of the rifles, no more, no less, if I had my druthers.
I have a 22-incher (wish it were longer), have a 28-incher in the works.

RIFLE WEIGHT:

On bare/empty rifle weight, same for both bolt action and single shot:
My real rifles are 7.25 pounds (maybe too light) to 9.75 pounds (maybe too heavy).
The happy median is 8.5 pounds, bare and empty.
The .458 B&M Toy weighs 7 pounds and 1 ounce.

A review of recoil levels to compare for various loads seems to be reasonable,
before getting into the specifics of how light and short a rifle should be.
The sort of load (bullet weight and velocity) are probably going to have some effect on desirable weight and length of rifle chosen
for all but the most hairy-chested of us.

As a basis for comparing the buttpad thump, start with a standard 10-pound field-ready .458 WIN, scoped and fully loaded, all up.
These loads would come from a 25"-barreled .458 WIN that weighs 8.5 pounds bare/empty, and 10.0 pounds scoped and loaded.
10-pound, 25"-barreled .458 WIN
Free Recoil Rifle KE (ft-lbs), Free Recoil Rifle Velocity (fps)

[b[300-gr[/b] TSX-FB (COL 3.330"), 78.0-gr H4198, 2810 fps MV: 46.4 ft-lbs, 17.28 fps

350-gr TSX-hBN (COL 3.440"), 81.0-gr H4198, 2810 fps MV: 59.0 ft-lbs, 19.49 fps

400-gr GSC HV (COL 3.395"), 82.0-gr AA-2230, 2510 fps MV: 61.3 ft-lbs, 19.85 fps

450-gr TSX-hBN (COL 3.685"), 82.0-gr AA-2230, 2450 fps MV: 70.2 ft-lbs, 21.30 fps

480-gr DGX (COL 3.340"), 77.0-gr AA-2460, 2290 fps MV: 67.7 ft-lbs, 20.90 fps

480-gr DGX (COL 3.340"), 72.0-gr AA-2460, 2150 fps MV: 59.6 ft-lbs, 19.58 fps ... TROPICAL LOAD ... (est. powder charge, all others verified)

500-gr Hornady-RNSP (COL 3.325"), 71.0-gr BENCHMARK, 2130 fps MV: 62.1 ft-lbs, 19.98 fps

500-gr TSX-FB (COL 3.780"), 83.0-gr AA-2230, 2340 fps MV: 77.2 ft-lbs, 22.30 fps

544-gr FNGC-HardCast (COL 3.485"), 72.0-gr AA-2460, 2150 fps MV: 72.2 ft-lbs, 21.50 fps

487-gr RN-Linotype (COL 3.375"), 36.0-gr AA-5744, 1440 fps MV: 24.0 ft-lbs, 12.44 fps ... Accurate, fun plinker in any .458 WIN.

Rip ...

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
Rip
If your going to dedicate a rifle to cast, it should be that Ruger #1 you are building. ...

Gunsmith had the barrel in his lathe ... yesterday.
More work is needed to establish a Tropical Load with AA-2460 for the 480-ish-grain cast bullets and 480-grain DGX&DGS bullets.
Whatever it takes to slow them down to only 2150 fps in any barrel from 20" to 25",
and any COL from 3.200" (primary cannelure crimp) to 3.500" (secondary cannelure crimp) in the .458 WIN.
A LongCOL load with that bullet weight could be either very low pressure at 2150 fps,
or significantly faster than 2300 fps at lower pressures than the .458 Lott could do it.

By golly! That 480-gr DGX is set up to give a 3.500" COL in the .458 Lot with 2.8" brass, when crimped on the primary cannelure!
Seating depth is 0.620" in the Lott or WIN, with primary cannelure crimping.
By seating that bullet only 0.320" deep in the .458 WIN (plenty deep with a secondary cannelure in the right place), using the 2.5" brass,
The .458 Lott can be whipped again.

Rip ...

I can't hardly wait to see that new long rifle sir!!