I have read several articles and have concluded that the advantage of 458 Lott over 458 Winchester Magnum is fictional. What do you think of you?.

I bought a 458 Lott and I have been guided by the figures that are available on several websites, however there are others who have compared both cartridges and have concluded that there is really only a difference of 100 feet per second, which is no big deal. What do you think?

In conclusion, making 458 Lott just as well do 458 Winchester.

Oscar.

IMHO, having owned two 458WMs that were rechambered to Lott, I found between 230 and 260 feet per second advantage with 500/510gr bullets.
When you compare the pressures evenly the Lott is waaaay ahead. It is a fantasy retold occasionally by gun writers who are having writer's block.

Rich
DRSS

I guess it only makes a difference if you need the extra 700 to 800 ft.lbs. The 458 Lott is what the original 458 win mag was supposed to be ballisticaly but never made it.

Hello Oscar,
It's kind of like having two for the price of one. If you don't need all the extra that the Lott provides, use the 458WinMag round. Think of it as "reserve" power if needed. I have bolt gun Lott and since bought Ruger No.1 in Lott and that can be quite an impressive experience with full house loads. For a 45 caliber round, it ranks right at the top for performance w/ many of the older classic rounds of big bore.

you can load a lott down to a winmag .. the converse is not true, unless you have your bullets set to lott length

and the ole "150fps dosen't matter" .. great, let's play that game

150fps doesn't matter
so a 450 dakota is as good as a 460 weatherby

150fps doesn't matter
so a 450 rigby/lott is as good as a 450 dakota

150fps doesn't matter
so a 458winmag/450 NE is as good as a 450 rigby/lott

150fps doesn't matter
so a super stunt loaded 45/70 ruger only load is as good as a 458winmag/450 NE

150fps doesn't matter
so a 45/70 marlin load is as good as a super stunt loaded 45/70 ruger ony

150fps doesn't matter
so a 45/70 bp load is as good as a super stunt loaded 45/70 marlin

Therefore, if 150fps "doesn't matter" then the 45/70 is easily the equal of the 460 weatherby,in 6 easy steps

and claiming that a 458 winmag (nominally 500gr at 2150 at 3.34"OAL) is as good as a lott (nominally 500gr at 2300 at 3.65"OAL) is just as ridiculous.

Anyone who claims they can get 2200+ fps, and be withing spitting distance of a lott, needs to try EXACTLY the same techniques on a lott, and see if they only get 2350 or closer to 2400.

within boundaries, here is no replacement for deplacement, all else being equal.

Can the win 458 Win shoot a solid at 2350 FPS
My 458 lott can and the SP at 2280 FPS.
I don't think so.

The 458 Lott is a better cartridge for a reloader whomlikes to play around.

In addition, what a 458 Winchester can do with its arse hanging out, the 458 Lott can do in cruise mode.

Of course the same can be said of the big 45s (Wby, Rigby, Dakota) compared to the 458 Lott. However, the big 45s are more limited in what actions they can go in, brass is much dearer.

I guess the question I would ask is...." what is the advantage of the 458 Winchester over the 458 Lott"

Thanks for your answers, I also thought that if 458 and 458 Winchester Magnum Lott do the same. Why do you need the cartridge sheath 458 Lott bigger?. I've been satisfied with your answers. Thank you very much.

Oscar.

It is a simple provable fact that the 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place.

In it's infancy the 458 Win Mag worked as advertized in 30" test barrels, and with fresh ammo at Winchester's test range. In the real world in the hunting fields of Africa, the place where the cartridge was designed to be used, it had some real problems, with dud, and hang-fires at som inopertune times, that gained it the name of DANGEROUS TO THE SHOOTER, rather than a DANGREOUS GAME cartridge.

The problem was the powders available in the mid 1950s, and the lack case capacity, to reach it's potential. Even with the powders available then, there wouldn't have been a problem at all it they had simply use the full length 375 H&H case blown out, or THE LOTT CASE.

The fact is the LOTT will do what the Win Mag was supposed to do, while creating less chamber pressure, and allowing bullet seating choice, without crush seating that cakes powder. Today the powders are available that can be used to avoid those problems in the 458 Win Mag, but it took 45 yrs to come up with the powders that made the Win Mag viable today. If the Win Mag had either been loaded with a lighter bullet,or been loaded in a full length case (like the LOTT). The 500 gr bullet should have never been used in the Win Mag,but if the LOTT case had been used, the problems would have never happened.

I have a 458 LOTT, and a 458 Win Mag! I load the Win Mag with 400 gr bullets, the way it should have been in the first place if that short case was to be used. I load the 458 LOTT with a 480 gr bullet to the exact ballistics of the 450NE 3 1/4" the cartridge the 458 was disigned to replace when the ammo became unavailable, to be used in a bolt rifle.

If Winchester had used the full length case(LOTT CASE) to start with the 458 fiasco would have never happened, and Winchester would have been the champion of Africa for the last 45 yrs, instead of THAT BASTARD dud Cartridge reputation it was tagged with.

...................

Hello, I would like to ask another question. How can I reproduce the 416 Rigby with 458 Lott calibre ballistics? Is it possible?. I am going to have gunpowder Vectan Tubal 3000 or Tubal 5000, I can do it with this gunpowder?

Thank you,

Oscar.

400gr at 2400 fps in a lott? 400gr bullet?
YES, thugh i dont have a load for you ..

use a tough bullet

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
400gr at 2400 fps in a lott? 400gr bullet?
YES, thugh i dont have a load for you ..

use a tough bullet

Thank you.

Oscar.

There was a book on bolt actions writen by fellow with a name something like Stuart Otteson. In the section on M70s he seemed to indicate that Winchester was going to drop the 375 H&H in the Post 64 action and keep the Post 64 action at the shorter length of the Pre 64. Perhaps the seeds for the 458 Winchester being on that standard length case were sown with that in mind.

I suppose another reason would have been to keep bolt travel the same in the 338 Winchester and 458 Winchester.

But maketing department in Winchester prevailed and the post 64 action was made longer and the 375 retained.

Gentlemen, how many of you have actually experienced a .458 WinMag fail to perform?????
How many of you have actually experienced a .458 Lott perform????
How many of those failures were good shots????

Basically it boils down to this.

It has been well established for 100 years that a .45 caliber 500 grain bullet at 2150 or so is perfectly adequate for any dangerous game. It is easy to load a .458WM with such a bullet to 2200 fps in a 22" barrel.

With a Lott you can get maybe 100 fps more with the same bullet. This means you get 9% more muzzle energy and 9% more recoil. The 9% more energy is not needed--you don't kill ele and buff with shock--and the 9% more recoil is just more propensity to flinch.

Oh. It's harder to short stroke a .458WM.

There is no reason to drop to 400 grains in this caliber. 450 flat nosed solids at 2250 will out penetrate 500 grain round noses and they have noticeably less recoil. They will shoot through a buffalo from stern to stem and give all the penetration you need on elephant. I suspect that the new 500 grain North Forks will as well.

Of course, if you want to, it is no trick to fire a 350 grain TSX at 2700. That's a "pointed" bullet. Sort of a .375 H&H on steroids--with 5700 foot pounds of energy.

So that's the choice. It's like 30-06 and .308 (except with less difference in velocity). The game will never notice.

All the old wives tales about caking powder simply aren't relevant in 2009. As for saying the .458WM "should have been" the Lott, one has to ask, "why?" Just as it is, it's a better stopper than the .416s, such double calibers as the 450/400 and .450-3-1/4", and is about in the same league as the .470 Nitro Express.

Perhaps they should have invented the Lott first. The WM could have been their "improvement." They could have called it the ".458 anti-short stroke," though I confess I have never short stroked any bolt rifle.

Mike LaGrange - with 6000 elephants under his belt - claimed the standard 458 was his favorite and perfectly adequate for any game under any conditions. Harry Selby traded in his 416 Rigby for a standard 458 and Finn Aagaard claimed that most of the bashing of the 458 - including Jack Lott's - was due to poor shooting.
Even Jack Lott said that all he was after was and honest 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet and the standard 458 with today's modern loads easily gives that.
If you want more velocity the Lott is a great round but if you honestly think 100-200 fps makes that much difference why not go to the 460 WBY ? It is everything the Lott should have been.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If you want more velocity the Lott is a great round but if you honestly think 100-200 fps makes that much difference why not go to the 460 WBY ? It is everything the Lott should have been.

But a couple of differences. The 460 (or 450 Dakota/Rigby) are more restrictive in available actions. The 458 Lott lets you shoot 458 ammo. Sort of like 375 Wby and 375 H&H but even here the 458 Lott is a better deal than the 375 Wby. If someone has a top end custom blue/walnut M70 then but better to have 375 H&H engraved on it than 375 Wby. But I suspect the 458 Lott would be the preferred calibre over 458 for the high end custom gun.

The 458 Lott will also be superior for the handloader who likes to play around.

But in the final analysis what advantage is there in having a 458 Winchester instead of a 458 Lott?

My next rifle will be a .458 win. Use AA 2230 and 500 grain Swifts and I'll feel perfectly comfortable with it.

I've seen what 74 grains of 2230 and a 500 grain Hornady solid will do to a buffalo. It got my attention, and the buffalo's, too.

458WM w/450gr bullet at 2250-2300FPS. It'll take anything that walks.

I can only get 2220 fps out of my 22.5" barreled 458WM with the 450 A frame, while at the same time keeping the chamber pressure below ~ 62 ksi.

I can see that there are many people passionate by cartridge 458 Winchester Magnum, and I'm happy the debate taking place in this thread. Thank you.

Oscar.

Although there is no doubt the 458LOTT will out perform the 458Win Mag, I am still happy to build a light weight 458Win mag shooting 480grn Woodleighs at around 2150fps.
The 480grners at this velocity have worked well on big game from the 450NE's.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Although there is no doubt the 458LOTT will out perform the 458Win Mag, I am still happy to build a light weight 458Win mag shooting 480grn Woodleighs at around 2150fps.
The 480grners at this velocity have worked well on big game from the 450NE's.

Yeah, the Lott will probably add a pound or more over a 458WM action.

But you can use the 550 gr. bullets in the Lott. They're kicking fools!

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Although there is no doubt the 458LOTT will out perform the 458Win Mag, I am still happy to build a light weight 458Win mag shooting 480grn Woodleighs at around 2150fps.
The 480grners at this velocity have worked well on big game from the 450NE's.

Yeah, the Lott will probably add a pound or more over a 458WM action.

But you can use the 550 gr. bullets in the Lott. They're kicking fools!

Yes,
With a 458Lott for Jumbo, I would use the 550grn Woodleighs- in a heavy rifle.

The ability of the Lott to use 550 grain bullets is the one advantage the Lott has over the Win. You can't use it in the Win and get meaningful velocity but you can get 2,150 fps with the 550 grain Woodleigh bullet in the Lott even out of a 22" barrel. I can assure you that it is an awesome thumping and penetrating combination. I recovered two of these bullets from the stomach contents of elephants after frontal brain shots. What? At least 60" of penetration? It makes a 458 a near 500 Nitro Express. Down side is that recoil is high.

465H&H

quote:

Down side is that recoil is high.

Oh yeah.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
Gentlemen, how many of you have actually experienced a .458 WinMag fail to perform?????
How many of you have actually experienced a .458 Lott perform????
How many of those failures were good shots????

Back in the 50s when the 458 Win Mag came out I bought the first one sold in El Paso county, of Texas. I had several hang fires, and out and out duds with the factory ammo. At first I thought it was the rifle not hitting the primers hard enough. but the dents in the primers were as deep as they were in my mod 70 375 H&H, and so I decided the primers Winchester was useing were bad so I pulled some of the bullets, and fired the primed cases in the rifle to see. They worked fine! Those cases I reloaded 40 rounds with about the best powder available at that time IMR 3031, the worked fine for a while. However after bouncing around in my Jeep over the rocks and cactus on West Texas, and New Mexico, in 105 degree F heat for a while I started getting hang fires and a couple of duds again. I pulled the bullets, and the powder was caked so tight it wouldn't pour out of the case. I finally found a fix by lowering the powder charge some, and subsituteing 400 gr bullets, seated out as far as I could without them walking out of the case from recoil, and still fit in the magazine. The result was a fancy belted 45-70! I sold the rifle and went with my 375 H&H, which was 150 precent more reliable!

In a few months I started hearing about these failiers in Africa, by the Game departments, and hunters who had problems with the 458 Win Mag as well. I think Lott had the right idea, and if Winchester had gone that way in the first place, the 458 Win Mag would have lived fine, and the LOTT wouldn't have been needed at all!

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
I have read several articles and have concluded that the advantage of 458 Lott over 458 Winchester Magnum is fictional. What do you think of you?.

I bought a 458 Lott and I have been guided by the figures that are available on several websites, however there are others who have compared both cartridges and have concluded that there is really only a difference of 100 feet per second, which is no big deal. What do you think?

In conclusion, making 458 Lott just as well do 458 Winchester.

Oscar.

Go for the .458 3" instead!

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:
Basically it boils down to this.

It has been well established for 100 years that a .45 caliber 500 grain bullet at 2150 or so is perfectly adequate for any dangerous game. It is easy to load a .458WM with such a bullet to 2200 fps in a 22" barrel.

The 480 gr bullet at 2150 was the bench mark, and in those large cases it was easy to get the 2150 way back at the turn of the 20th century, but in 1958 when the 458 Win Mag came out it wasn't so easy. It took 50 yrs to get powders that would allow a workable 458 Win Mag. The full length 375 H&H case would have solved the problem in 1958! Tht ia why the LOTT case should have been the 458 Win Mag, not that stump of fancy 45-70!

quote:

With a Lott you can get maybe 100 fps more with the same bullet. This means you get 9% more muzzle energy and 9% more recoil. The 9% more energy is not needed--you don't kill ele and buff with shock--and the 9% more recoil is just more propensity to flinch.

You don't need the so-called EXTRA 100 fps in the lott, the balistics that were advertized for the win Mag are fine, because the 458 Win Mag was designed to take the place of the 450NE 3 1/4", which got the 2150 fps with a 480 gr bullet. That was the benchmark they were trying to achieve. There is noneed even today to go above the 450NE 3 1/4" ballistics today, but they couldn't get even that in 1958, but it would have been easy in the lott case.

quote:

Oh. It's harder to short stroke a .458WM.

There is no reason to drop to 400 grains in this caliber. 450 flat nosed solids at 2250 will out penetrate 500 grain round noses and they have noticeably less recoil. They will shoot through a buffalo from stern to stem and give all the penetration you need on elephant. I suspect that the new 500 grain North Forks will as well.

Again that is TODAY 50 yrs later!

quote:

Of course, if you want to, it is no trick to fire a 350 grain TSX at 2700. That's a "pointed" bullet. Sort of a .375 H&H on steroids--with 5700 foot pounds of energy.

It wouldn't have been a trick in 1958 with that bullet, but the fact is in 1958 when the 458 Win Mag was failing, the 350, and 400 gr bullets were soft and made for the 45-70, not a good choice for what the 458 Win Mag was designed for.

quote:

So that's the choice. It's like 30-06 and .308 (except with less difference in velocity). The game will never notice.

All the old wives tales about caking powder simply aren't relevant in 2009. As for saying the .458WM "should have been" the Lott, one has to ask, "why?" Just as it is, it's a better stopper than the .416s, such double calibers as the 450/400 and .450-3-1/4", and is about in the same league as the .470 Nitro Express.

I have a news flash for you, those were not old wives tales, friend, they were a fact!

WHY? Because it wasn't worth crap in 1958, and that is when it should have been the LOTT case, and if it had been this thread would be irrelevant today!

quote:

Perhaps they should have invented the Lott first.

That is what I've been saying all along!

quote:

The WM could have been their "improvement." They could have called it the ".458 anti-short stroke," though I confess I have never short stroked any bolt rifle.

No they could have lumped in with the very long lived "SHORT MAGNUMS" of a year ago, and called it the 458 WSM! At least it would have made more sense that the short mags they did bring out.

The cartridge is fine today, but the problems could have all been avoided with the full length case in the first place!

Why is it completely over looked that all Jack Lott did was reinvent the 450 Watts magnum long as the 458 Winchester is the 450 Watts short

Mac,

You are forgetting one fact regarding Winchesters decision to use the 2.5" case for the 458 Win. Here is what I wrote about this issue in African Hunter Magazine:

Winchester recognized the demand and answered with the 458 Win. Many critics have said that if they had designed the cartridge to use the full-length of 2.85-inches of the 375 H&H case instead of the 2.5-inch case, the problems of limited case capacity and powder compaction would have not occurred. In effect we would have had a 458 Lott or 458 Watt. Since this occurred over 50 years ago, most if not all of those who knew what Winchester was thinking are gone to their happy hunting grounds and are not available to enlighten us on their reasons for selecting the 2.5-inch case. The best we can do is to make some educated guesses.

During the post WWII period there were few actions available that could handle the 2.85-inch case. The Winchester Model 70 was available and could have easily handled the longer case. World War II put the Mauser Company out of business and consequently their magnum length action was no longer available. So why would Winchester select the 2.5-inch case? The reason may have been that while rifle/ammunition-making companies make profits on sales of rifles, the real profits come from the sale of ammunition for those rifles. By designing it on the 2.5-inch case, any action suitable for 30-06 Springfield length cartridges could be used to build 458 Win rifles. Browning and FN soon produced rifles on standard length Mauser actions. Custom gun builders built thousands on surplus military Mauser actions. That opened a huge increase in ammunition sales for Winchester. Cheap ammo and a reasonably priced rifle, including the Model 70, led to heavy sales as African game departments could afford a suitable rifle and this cartridge for handling dangerous game. In my opinion, rather than being poorly designed it appears that Winchester used good business sense in selecting the 2.5-inch case considering that the problems with compaction were probably entirely unexpected

465H&H

The .458WM has been killing the big and nasty stuff for over 50yrs, and will continue to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by husky:

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
I have read several articles and have concluded that the advantage of 458 Lott over 458 Winchester Magnum is fictional. What do you think of you?.

I bought a 458 Lott and I have been guided by the figures that are available on several websites, however there are others who have compared both cartridges and have concluded that there is really only a difference of 100 feet per second, which is no big deal. What do you think?

In conclusion, making 458 Lott just as well do 458 Winchester.

Oscar.

Go for the .458 3" instead!

Impossible, I had to save nearly two years to buy the Ceska 458 Lott, I am content with this caliber. I think it is enough for all wildlife on the planet.

Oscar.

ovny,
I see
-but,

It would be a NEW large bore project!

Myself came back from a buffalo hunt in Zim 2007, with a near death experience, decided that a .505 would be better than the .404 I used on the Buffalo.

Now I have a .505 Gibbs

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
World War II put the Mauser Company out of business and consequently their magnum length action was no longer available. So why would Winchester select the 2.5-inch case? The reason may have been that while rifle/ammunition-making companies make profits on sales of rifles, the real profits come from the sale of ammunition for those rifles. By designing it on the 2.5-inch case, any action suitable for 30-06 Springfield length cartridges could be used to build 458 Win rifles. Browning and FN soon produced rifles on standard length Mauser actions. Custom gun builders built thousands on surplus military Mauser actions. That opened a huge increase in ammunition sales for Winchester. Cheap ammo and a reasonably priced rifle, including the Model 70, led to heavy sales as African game departments could afford a suitable rifle and this cartridge for handling dangerous game. In my opinion, rather than being poorly designed it appears that Winchester used good business sense in selecting the 2.5-inch case considering that the problems with compaction were probably entirely unexpected

465H&H

Well it didn't turn out to be a very good buisness decision, because no matter if there were thousands of actions available for the design, if the cartridge that didn't work as intended ! Even Remington reccognized the fact the the 244 Rem didn't work well, and changed to something that did right away, by re-nameing it, and changeing the twist in the barrel on their 6MM rem (the same cartridge but useing a 1/9" twist). Winchester could have done the same, and If not the full length case could have made the 458 win mag a little longer, and replaced the 500 gr bullet with a 450 gr or 480 gra that would allow more powder capacity. However they didn't do anything but wait 50 yrs till they finally made the 458 LOTT a factory round after powder was already available to make the 458 Win Mag work. That doesn't sound like much of a plan to me!

I can testify that the 60s and 70s factory softpoints were crap. I and family members gave up on the caliber after several instances of poor penetration. If you chase a well hit zebra for two days and lose a buffalo or two you don't soon forget.

quote:

Originally posted by Mikelravy:
I can testify that the 60s and 70s factory softpoints were crap. I and family members gave up on the caliber after several instances of poor penetration. If you chase a well hit zebra for two days and lose a buffalo or two you don't soon forget.

Actually they did do something about it and changed the powders in the early to middle 60's. If you read the results from those that use the cartdige and had the problem of compaction and the more serious problem of crimps giving away, it becomes evident that the total number of problems was quite small, although that isn't much comfort if your the one having the problem at the wrong time. But all this is moot to the question at hand because we are comparing what is available now in factory loads or handloaded with modern powders and bullets. I still maintain that only when you want to use the 550 grain bullets in the Lott do you see a significant improvement in using the Lott over the Win.

465H&H

and same business bigwigs thought that the post 64 was a good idea, too.

see what a great idea that turned out to be?

quote:

Gentlemen, how many of you have actually experienced a .458 WinMag fail to perform?????

Rae59, how dare you ask for evidence!

This, Sir, is the INTERNET!

Bob

The majority of this thread is a history lesson, and interesting in it's own right. I appreciate the voluminous knowledge of Mac and others on the evolution of the .458 Win Mag.

But the question is, what's the story today?

I'm going to buy one for two reasons...I'm 66 and don't need the snot kicked out of me by a Lott for another 150 fps when the current crop of powders such as AA 2230 and good 450 and 500 grain bullets in the Win will do the job about as well as a .470 or the Lott, and it's relatively easy to find decent factory loads for the caliber, although I will roll my own.

I chroney'd the current Norma offering of the 500 A Frame from a buddy's Sauer with a 24" bbl and got an average of 2150 with an SD of about 10, IIRC. That's good enough for me and my next buffalo.

My PH on my recent hunt was loading 74 grains of 2230 and a 500 A Frame and had no pressure signs whatsoever. He's been using that load for several years and swears by it. Whe I get started, I'll work up toward it and see what happens.