The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Lott and 458 Winchester Magnum. Does it really make much difference?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
One of Us |
If there was one powder to use for the .458WM, what would it be? Using 500gr bullets. | |||
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| one of us |
I have tried IMR 3031 and it is a powder that I encourage ANYONE to stay away from when loading the 458wm. It delivers low velocity for pressure in 24" + barrels according reloading manuals and my experience and it is EXTREMELY TEMPERATURE SENSITIVE in my experiements with it. Testing it from ~90* down to ~30* revealed extreme velocity drops up to 200+fps in my rifle. In my rifle, it also showed substantial variability load to load. My rifle has two barrels and the results were consistent from both barrels. A powder to steer clear of, imo. IanD, I have come to love AA 2230 for 500gr bullets and NF 450gr bullets, which has provided good velocity at midlin' loads in my 26" barrels rifle. I get 2145fps corrected to the muzzle and my load pressure tested well below max. H 4895 burns cleaner, but is inconsistent in my rifle with 500 grainers. Works well for NF 450 grainers in my rifle though. H 4895 is an Aussie manufactured Hogdon Extreme powder and is designed to be temp insensitive. Seemed to be so in my limited temp testing. AA 2230 was also temp insensative in my testing from ~100*F to ~50*F with any differential due to temps undetectable and obscured by moderate round to round variances. I will try H 335 some day, but I've been so happy with AA 2230 that I haven't cracked the jar. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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| <Mike McGuire> |
If the velocity goal is 2150 f/s with 500 grain bullets is it true that the 458 Lott can do this with ease compared to the 458 Winchester and at less pressure. | ||
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| one of us |
Mike, If a Lott chamber is cut with short throat, whilst a 458WM chamber is cut with lots of freebore ... does the relative ease statement still apply? I'm pre-morning coffee so it may be a blonde question. Cheers... Con | |||
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| one of us |
Mike, With AR2206H my 458WinMag topped out at around 2070fps with 500gr. I reckon I could have cracked 2100 fps if I tried but every additional grain of powder was netting me 15-20fps and I was already feeling a bit uneasy. It's just so much easier in the 458AccRel and cruising along at 2230fps. Cheers... Con | |||
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| one of us |
IanD: The best powder I have tried for the .458WM and 500 grain bullets was AA2230. I like it better than H4895 because it's a little denser. In theory H335 should be about as good as AA2230, but I haven't tried it yet. I will try it shortly. Also, like H4895, it is a Hodgdon Extreme powder (temperature insensitive). Mike McGuire: You wrote, "I just can't see any argument supporting a 458 Win over the 458 Lott." Go back and read 458 Only's post or look at the Barnes web site. The Lott only beats the Winchester by 50 to 70 fps (not 200 fps) and requires equally compressed loads to do that. The difference is irrelevant. I'll take the shorter action, lighter weight, and lower recoil (in part due to lower powder charges) of the Winchester. The only thing wrong with the .458 WM is that Winchester loads it with their W748, which is a very crummy powder for it. Again, see 458 Only's load results. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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One of Us |
First was the 458 Winchester Magnum which was not suitable for the dangerous, hunting because generated much pressure, their bullets penetrating not enough, now is the 458 Lott is that isn't enough, best 458 Express. What we should do? Perhaps buy the latest market. That difficult situation. Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
458 Dakota, factory 500gr loads clock 2400 +/-fps from my rechambered CZ. My loads beat that by a little. You can crank it up to as close to the 460Wbee as your shoulder can stand, since they are the same case capacity. I shot thru a Cape Buffalo with mine. Rich | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes they said that but that was old powder and old bullets everyone of my safaris except 1 has been taken with a 458 winchester and I never felt I didnt have enough | |||
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| one of us |
If Winchester had made their original offering in the dimensions of the Lott a wildcat in the dimensions of the Win Mag would have followed very shortly. The ability to fit into more rifles is a real plus. The 50 Beowulf isn't exactly a great round, but in the AR platform it's top dog. Same with the 40 S&W, 45GAP or the 357 Sig since they fit in 9mm pistols. The 458 Win Mag is a pretty impressive round that can fit in any old 30-06 sized gun. As availible as the Lott is now it seems to be a no brainer in the longer bolt actions. As for heavy recoil it can always be loaded down to 2,150. If 458's were not such a small market I would expect to see factory offered "controlled recoil" ammunition. | |||
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| one of us |
I believe that they may indeed have looked at both ... but they were called the 458Watts and 458Watts short at the time. Cheers... Con | |||
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| One of Us |
All we talked about what leads to a word: consumption. You have to innovate, to renovate the market and policy of man is to see something that has always worked far longer works. As stated in my country "Renew or die." Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
And seen the whole thread, I ask in relation to the caliber 458 Lott. Is it a proper bore to stop the charge of a buffalo, an elephant, a rhinoceros or a hippopotamus? And with this question I terminate my contribution to the thread that I started. Thank you very much and sorry for the inconvenience, Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
In answer to your question, definately, YES! 465H&H | |||
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| One of Us |
Thank you very much, Regards, Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
The "Long Action" is a myth by Winchester. The M70 came out at the height of the Depression. Nobody had the extra $$$ laying around to design and build a couple different action lengths. They are all the same length. It's why a lot of M70's were rechambered to 458 Watts, Ackley, etc in the fifties and sixties. 465H&H has a gorgeous P64 in 458 Lott I was privileged to shoot a few years ago. They could have done the458WM at 300Wm length and made 2100 safely. The bean counters were beginning the takeover of the engineering department. Rich CZ's for me, they work | |||
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| One of Us |
Anyone can "prove" their particular bias to themselves quite easily. We do it all the time when we make acquisitions, the women we marry, etc. I think we all understand that. But to "prove" that we "need" a 450 Dakota or 460 WBY, is impossible. Furthermore, to try to show that we have a superior intellect in doing so is highly suspect as well. So, the debates here do not show intellectual prowess nor are they related to need: it says something about who we are, and perhaps our preferences, but in no way does it make a statement about superiority of person or equipment. People can rant all they want about "what should have been" but it's all "monday morning quarterbacking"! The fact is that Winchester chose to make the 458WM based on a 2.5" case... and the cartridge has far greater potential today with modern components than it ever had "back in the day". AND, there are many thousands of them out there which will NOT all be rechambered to the Lott! They are appreciated for what they are. It not only equals, but effectively surpasses a number of the British Big Bores of the late 19th and early 20th century. Those are hard facts that, for some at least, seem hard to swallow and digest. If someone prefers a 450 Dakota, 458 Lott, 460 WBY, etc, that's their business... I've no problem with it, but when attempting to justify their acquisition by constantly trying to degrade the 458WM by tiresome references to outdated data, while ignoring present reality, that's downright dishonest! Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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| One of Us |
I wasn't speaking of "higher pressure" as in "more pressure than" Hornady, for example... but just higher pressure relative to a shorter bullet of equal weight due to less volume available... NOT a bad thing at all! In other words: equal pressure is available using less propellant due to less volume available in the case after the bullet is seated. That makes a more efficient case, in a sense, and within bounds. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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| one of us |
I don't care for the 460WEA, 450Dak, 458 Lott, etc---- anymore than the 458WM.They are not big enough. What might have been-----Winny might still be in business with better decisions.Better decisions= more markets. Rich is right the bean counters screwed it up. The height of stupidity is to take a previous case and action, the 375H&H in Mod 70 which feed fine, guys carried it ok, and to make a 45 cal, cut the case back .35". The action was still a long action with a little shorter mag box in place of the 375H&H mag box. Action same. The bean guys probably fugured that with cases shorter guys wouldn't make their own so they'd sell more factory ammo. And you say the 458WM has the 2100-2200 potentisl with the better powders out today, well if it'd been originally like the Lott, etc, it would have done it back then, safely and a little more and the bad press wouldn't have been a factor that helped competition, and hurt Winchester sales.People who like 458WM will do fine with them, but the company screwed themselves up.That's where it made the difference. It'd be nicer right now, if a 3-4 good decisions would have been made, one of which having the 458WM like the Lott ................ and Winny still in business......Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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| One of Us |
Do what Rigby cartridge refers you the 416 or the 450?. Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
I am checking that many people do not like the 458 Lott, however in older post Forum people were quite excited about this calibre. What bad experience did someone with 458 Lott?, what has changed?. Fail to understand that you could changed. I would like to have a powerful weapon and as I am going reading views I am seeing my appreciation towards 458 Lott is declining.  Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Don't feel bad about having a 458 Lott, Oscar. It's an excellent cartridge, and in the CZ 550 you have an excellent rifle as well. The debate is not to put down the Lott, but to show that the 458 Win Mag is an excellent cartridge as well... Some people just don't get it... OR REFUSE TO! End of discussion for me. I've wasted too much time here already, and I've more important things that need to be done. Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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| One of Us |
"not big enough." For what? One has to be very insecure if they think .458's aren't "big enough" for eles, or whatever!  Bob www.bigbores.ca "Let every created thing give praise to the LORD, for he issued his command, and they came into being" - King David, Psalm 148 (NLT) | |||
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one of us |
There is nothing wrong with the Lott. Shoot it well and it should serve you well. ------------------------------- Some Pictures from Namibia Some Pictures from Zimbabwe An Elephant Story | |||
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| One of Us |
What is certain is that 458 Winchester Magnum has worked for a long time, and even was (is true) the successor of the British double rifles. In practice playing the ballistic NE 470, but perhaps its weakness is that the sheath is too short for the type of powder that was used at that time and that this factor bound to the temperatures of the African continent that the pressure becomes too , temporarily knocking out rifles, which in dangerous hunting situations was tragic. I've also read that at one time were used inappropriate bullets that were not well-shirted and firing on the skull of an elephant, the shirt became detached from the core of the bullet, preventing it from reaching the brain of the elephant with consequences equally tragic. But today with new powders and bullets available, 458 Winchester Magnum I think it is fully capable of breaking down (pointing as should point) animals that walk on land. Greetings, Oscar I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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| One of Us |
Never herd of a 450 Rigby Smart guy.Im suprised with all them exotic locals you have hunted Alabama | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores 458 Lott and 458 Winchester Magnum. Does it really make much difference?
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