To throw a little more pepper in the stew I know a PH who swares by his .458 Express!
http://www.458express.com/
Matt

quote:

To throw a little more pepper in the stew I know a PH who swares by his .458 Express!

Wow, I increasingly see more useless to 458 Lott, because if you want to increase power, better pass a 458 Winchester Magnum to the 458 express or increasing slightly more a 470 Capstick or the 460 Weatherby Magnum.

Oscar.

Everytime I see a reference to the 458 Express I feel the need to reming folks that it was developed because SA and other southern African reloaders do not have access to US or Aussie powders, which boost the performance of both the Win Mag and the Lott. The material below, taken from the 458 Express website linked by Matt reveals performance on par with or short of Lott performance and hardly better than a Win mag.

"The following loads were tested and reloaded numerous times by Professor Koos Badenhorst.

Powder Bullet (grains) Grains Velocity - (Fps)
S 335 (South Africa)
300 Impala 86-88 2700
350 Spartan HP 88-90 2530
400 Woodleigh 84-86 2420
400 Spartan HP 84-86 2400
425 Rhino Soft 83-85 2350
450 Spartan PX 80-82 2250
450 Barnes Solid Copper 76-78 2275
475 Dzombo 78-80 2260
475 PMP Solid Copper 76-78 2250
500 Swift A-frame 80-81 2250
SAFETY FIRST!!!

The very best attribute of the .458 Express is the fact that the South African propellants work in this caliber producing velocities of 2250 fps with a very safe working pressure!"

JPK

A few minutes ago, I had my supplier set aside another 100 .458WM cases for me - Winchester brand. This is the same store at which I bought my CZ. It's perhaps the largest such store in Ontario, and certainly one of the largest in Canada.

While doing that, I asked if they had any .458Lott brass on hand - they had 150 Hornady brand.

I pressed the issue to ask the cost of the Lott brass in Hornady make: 'twas $53 per 50. The .458WM brass (Winchester make) was $41 per 50. Difference? $13.68 per 50 (including taxes)in favor of the .458WM.

Another question I asked: "How many of each do you sell?" The ratio was 5 to 1 in favor of the .458WM.

Question: I'm wondering if the shortage of .458WM brass, and the seeming abundance of Lott brass, isn't due to the popularity of the .458Win Mag., and the fact that owners are hoarding, which obviously isn't the situation here in this part of Canada at least?

It's recorded that King David was anointed by the prophet Samuel to replace Saul as king of Israel because "Man looks on the outward appearance but God sees the heart". But it was David who killed the giant Goliath, not Saul, who was about 6'-5"!

If I may be so bold as to apply that principle to cartridges: The .458 Winchester is not visually impressive, granted, but it has slain all of the "giants" of Africa and Asia countless thousands of times.

And it has outlived many of its critics, who are now deceased, and will continue to outlive many more of it's critics. Betting against the .458WM doesn't have great odds... it can do, and has done, anything it's younger brother can do with a "lot" less fuss, pain, noise and bother! The Lott has a "lot" of catching up to do... Will it make it? Let's see... well, here in Canada, at least, if it's already losing at a ratio of 5 to 1... Yep, those aren't good odds at all!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
IIRC, my Hornaday Manual shows 2250fps with their max load of AA 2230.

JPK

Hi JPK:

The Hornady max load of AA2230 for their 500's is 78.3grs at 2200 fps.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Guys,

Don't believe anything Hornady says about loading the .458WM. Their 78 grains of AA2230 is out of wack with other data.

I believed them and loaded some rounds with 77 grains of AA2230 and 500 grain Barnes banded solids. The one shot I fired showed 2376 fps (instrumental, not corrected to muzzle) from my 22" barrel. Pressure was way too high--had to whap on the bolt to open it and the extractor marked the case real shiny.

In my rifle I found I could get 2218 with 72 grains and 2234 with 72.5 grains and there is no reason to try to "max out" and get more. In fact, if I hunted with this bullet weight, I'd probably drop to 71.5 grains.

CAUTION: Maximums in your rifle may be lower. Mine has a lot of freebore.

Hello 458 Only, I have loved your post and especially Bible references. You are quite right, if something has always worked why change it or criticise it?. I bought the 458 Lott by whim, I discovered that cartridge by chance, but it was my first intention to acquire a 458 Winchester Magnum or 416 Rigby. Both cartridges I also like. Moreover the 458 Winchester Magnum plays the ballistics and benefits of the 470 N.E which downed many elephants.

A greeting

Oscar.

Dude/Sir...its the American Way...bigger ,better, and FASTER! The Lott is faster. Just like the .300WM and the .30/06.

Honestly, the choice is yours. I Bought the Lott...it does everything the .458WM does and more.

Thanks for that important info Indy.

Several months ago, I spoke with one of the technical reps at Hornady re AA2230. I'll not give his name, but "he" said that there is considerable variation in the burning rate of AA2230 from lot to lot. With some lots they could safely attain, within specs, 2300 fps from their 500's in the 24" Win Mag, with others 2200 fps was max. And he added: "When we can get it".

My strong impression was that they were not completely happy with that situation.

My emphasis has been all along that there are not only variances in powders, but also in rifles. There's no way that we can exactly duplicate what the pros experience in their labs... there are too many variables. Even from rifle to rifle chambered in the same cartridge, model and make there are differences.

There's no doubt in my mind that SOME .458Lotts will readily attain 2350 fps from certain 500's and 24" tubes, while others may have difficulty getting beyond 2250 fps. The same holds true for the .458WM. Some, as in Hagle's example, will safely hit 2250 fps from certain 500's with a 24" barrel, while others will struggle with their setup to go much beyond 2150 fps.

Until we have exhausted all possible combinations of components and barrels, we can't honestly pontificate what the results will be. Even the pros don't do that! It's simply too expensive and impractical. That's why they constantly emphasize: "These were our results with our test components in OUR lab. Based on OUR test results, these are our recommendations"... or language to that effect.

In my manual, I emphasize the same thing, in so many words.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Hello 458 Only, I have loved your post and especially Bible references. You are quite right, if something has always worked why change it or criticise it?. I bought the 458 Lott by whim, I discovered that cartridge by chance, but it was my first intention to acquire a 458 Winchester Magnum or 416 Rigby. Both cartridges I also like. Moreover the 458 Winchester Magnum plays the ballistics and benefits of the 470 N.E which downed many elephants.

A greeting

Oscar.

Thank you Oscar.

And a hearty greeting to you as well!


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by .458 Only:
[

Thank you Oscar.

And a hearty greeting to you as well!


Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Do not deserve, you speak wisely, and secure than by experience. If you allow me I will question you has written a manual recharge?. can I get it in Spain?. I would like to begin to recharge shortly and I have not yet no manual.

A greeting

Oscar.

Hello 458 Only, I have visited your blog and I have seen I was after that I read your comments when I started the topic in the Forum.

Oscar.

Bob,

What are the reasons you would advise a shooter to buy a 458 Winchester instead of the 458 Lott.

Leave out of the equation a special deal on some used rifle.

I simply can't see any pluses in the 458.

And what of people who can't get this 2230 powder?

I that end bag as conclusion is that you we should consider using the 458 Lott as a 458 Winchester Magnum, but working less pressure. Benefits at the end are very similar. Am I wrong?

Oscar.

I'd say that the 458 Lott has more power then the 458 Win. But the 458 Win can kill an elephant, so can the 458 Lott. If the Lott shoots a solid between his eyes it would only take one shot. Where as the 458 Win would probably take at leist two shots. Unless you go for the heart.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
If the Lott shoots a solid between his eyes it would only take one shot. Where as the 458 Win would probably take at leist two shots. Unless you go for the heart.

A PH I hunted with a few weeks ago was almost stepped on by a big jumbo. one shot to the brain with a light and handy 458Win Mag saved him and his clients.
I know this as I went to recover the meat.
A light weight and faster handling rifle is most probably easier to achieve with a Win Mag.

We really need both say about these two gauges and many others in the world of hunting. And it is also difficult to lay doctrine, because what a circumstance works correctly in another not both. There are no fixed rules worldwide hunting.

Oscar.

quote:

I'd say that the 458 Lott has more power then the 458 Win. But the 458 Win can kill an elephant, so can the 458 Lott. If the Lott shoots a solid between his eyes it would only take one shot. Where as the 458 Win would probably take at leist two shots. Unless you go for the heart.

Spoken like a true armchair hunter theres nothing really a lott does that the winchester can except shoot 550 grainers but the lott does lose speed also and is dwarfed by the Rigby and Weatherby which the lott could never come close to being

quote:

If the Lott shoots a solid between his eyes it would only take one shot. Where as the 458 Win would probably take at leist two shots.

I just say that that statement makes NO sense.

But why would you buy a 458 Winchester instead of a 458 Lott?

Eventually, I believe that to not make mistakes and not give more laps ideally a 458 express and so you can shoot the rest of 458s.

Oscar.

quote:

Eventually, I believe that to not make mistakes and not give more laps ideally a 458 express and so you can shoot the rest of 458s.

Try to get brass for that in spain or infact anywhere besides africa and maybe austraila if bruce still turns brass for it you want a low pressure 458 go rigby

quote:

But why would you buy a 458 Winchester instead of a 458 Lott?

Why....Personal Choice good light backpack gun recoil isnt to bad and the actions you can build them on.

Express; I not understood you response. I am not sure if you mean the difficulty of acquiring brass of 458 express in Spain. Here you are right, but I speak of United States, where the subject arms this year light my backward country .


An Express greeting.

Oscar.

P.d: I I conformo with my Ceska 550 Safari Magnum in 458 Lott , but I like to participate in the Forum and to learn from you .

I live in the United States and Have never seen or placed an order for a 458 express it boils down to all it is a 3 inch lott

It's kind of humourous that when one talks of the 375 Weatherby having a 150 fps advantage over the venerable (and rightly so!) 375 H&H, the answer is why bother? The 375 H&H has taken thousands of elephants, cape buffalo, etc.

When one mentions the 150 fps advantage of the 458 Lott over the 458 Win Mag, somehow in a more powerful rifle than the 375 H&H (the 458 Win Mag) the 150 fps increase is mysteriously essential ???

Again when one mentions the 404 Jeffrey (400g at 2150 fps) it's always been a great DG round and isn't beaten about the head and shoulders though the 416 Rigby (400g at 2400 fps) has been around for ages ...



Chuck

In one of Jeff Cooper's books he states that in a heavy rifle the range of 2000fps to 2400 seems definative, where 2400 to 2700 as in the 460 Weatherby does not. However I agree the 416's at 2400 seem to get no critisism, I prefer the 100+ gr of a 458 and the increased frontal area of a 45. With the correct bullet a 500gr 458 at even 2100 will not bounce off any beast.
Matt

I have read in publications specialized in weapons and hunting of my country that for example the 460 Weatherby Magnum was criticized because by its excessive speed their shells are desvian to crash against the craneo elephant and did not go to duly damage the brain of the animal leaving him wounded. That is why the author of this article to preferred his old and loyal Winchester 70 in calibre 458 Winchester Magnum, which said know their benefits and limitations. He said that the placement of the bullet is the most important thing.

Oscar.

Indeed, bullet placement and bullet performance transend any calibre issues.

quote:

but "he" said that there is considerable variation in the burning rate of AA2230 from lot to lot. With some lots they could safely attain, within specs, 2300 fps from their 500's in the 24" Win Mag, with others 2200 fps was max. And he added: "When we can get it".

My exoerience has been the opposite. Every lot of AA 2230 that I have loaded came up with the same velocity at the same charge weight in my rifle's two barrels.

I have tested it for velocity changes from ~50*F to ~100*F and saw no velocity changes in either barrel as well.

I would rate AA 2230 as very consistent from my experience with it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
If the Lott shoots a solid between his eyes it would only take one shot. Where as the 458 Win would probably take at leist two shots. Unless you go for the heart.

This is pure bunk. A well placed .458" solid from either cartridge will have the penetration to pass fully through the brain and the skull as well.

~2050fps is enough, which is what the 470NE delivers in vintage rifles using vintage loads (the historical load, which is slower than Federal's quoted velocity.) But ~2150fps from the WM delivers significantly more penetration and knock down/knock out effect as well, and is easy to achieve in any 458wm.

I've killed eighteen elephants with the 458WM, and each elephant hit with a well placed brain shot died instantly.

JPK

As far as brass for the Lott goes, another advantage is to fireform 375H&H brass, had to resort to this when I first bought my #1 in 458lott as Lott brass was not readily available in Aus at the time, bought the rifle in 03, ran over a couple of thousand rounds through her since then and shot everything from foxes, Deer, scrub bulls, dozens of camels and a truck load of donkies, bullet placement is everything as far as I am concerned, but I like to have the power there if it is needed, same reason as having a high performance truck, the power is there if you want it. as far as that goes I just myself a RSM in Lott as well, I just cant fault the cartridge.

Wow, difficult is sometimes understand what you mean in English. I occasionally I not come to understand the meaning of the post.

Best regards

Oscar.

I am finished this thread, but I insist on that I have read recently online more criticism of calibre 458 Lott that positive things. Something is?. In my country are saying "When the River sounds, water takes".

Best regards

Oscar.

P.D: And thank you for making this thread so interesting and your participation.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Bob,

What are the reasons you would advise a shooter to buy a 458 Winchester instead of the 458 Lott.

Leave out of the equation a special deal on some used rifle.

I simply can't see any pluses in the 458.

And what of people who can't get this 2230 powder?

I don't think I could add to what I've already written, except for this caveat: I've never said I'd recommend the 458WM over the Lott, NOR the Lott over the Win Mag. I gave a 15 point summary of MY reasons for choosing the Win Mag, and added that each potential buyer must decide for THEMSELVES.

But to summarize: I think that the difference between 2200 fps and 2300 fps amounts to 0 as far as heavy/dangerous game is concerned. It's the choice of bullet and placing it correctly that has top priority.

But the distinction between the recoil of a 500gr at 2200 fps and 2300 fps IS significant in my experience with the same rifle.

The issue of pressure has been mentioned more than a few times: The Win Mag CAN attain 2150 to 2200 fps at less than max psi with the right combinations of components and rifle. The right components means stable powders in tropical heat. H335, as one example.

It too has been pointed out, that if one wants a handier rifle than my 11 lb CZ (all up), then a 458WM may be the way to go, but the added cost will be in recoil!

If I were to choose today, instead of 18 months ago, would it still be the Win Mag? There's not a shade of doubt in my mind that the answer is YES (because of the 15 reasons already given). That hasn't changed. I'm not in the least impressed by hyperbole or emotional arguments!

Facts are facts: the Lott has a maximum of 100 fps advantage over the Win Mag, all things equal - which they never are! Load the Lott with a 500gr Barnes Banded at 105% density with the best powder BL-C(2) and, according to Barnes, it gives 2264 fps. Load the 458WM with its best powder at 105% (TAC) and it gave 2194 fps. Difference = 70 fps! BOTH were shot from Wiseman 24" test barrels!

If someone wants to argue that that's not the best powder in the Lott, then it could be argued that TAC may not be the best powder in the Win Mag either! AA2230 probably is!

I think more than enough has already been said for those who want to honestly look at the facts.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

but "he" said that there is considerable variation in the burning rate of AA2230 from lot to lot. With some lots they could safely attain, within specs, 2300 fps from their 500's in the 24" Win Mag, with others 2200 fps was max. And he added: "When we can get it".

My exoerience has been the opposite. Every lot of AA 2230 that I have loaded came up with the same velocity at the same charge weight in my rifle's two barrels.

I have tested it for velocity changes from ~50*F to ~100*F and saw no velocity changes in either barrel as well.

I would rate AA 2230 as very consistent from my experience with it.

JPK

I'm glad that's been your experience JPK!

I was attempting to answer a question posed as to why the difference between Hornady's manual(78.3grs of AA2230 @ 2200 fps) and the AA manual (or site)of 72grs at 2159 fps. I suggested that Hornady was loading to near Max psi whereas AA was rather low psi at 53,808 psi. Also, they were not always able to get that powder and when they did it showed a variance of up to 100 fps at the top end - or language to that effect.

Just reporting - I've not been able to get it (so far) here in Ontario, but I haven't tried lately as I've been busy with other testing and shooting. Some day soon, I hope to get my hands on some.

Then, when monos are loaded they create more pressure with less fuel, being much longer than bullets in the same weight (Hornadys and Woodleighs), so it's entirely possible to attain relatively high MV's using less powder.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Not all monos create higher pressures. I believe you will find that true driving band bullets, like the North Fork and the GS Custom create less pressure and similar weight cup and core or "banded" monos. Take a look at Gerrard's site for more and despositive info.

JPK

I have been shooting my 458 Win all this week and will be carrying it next week during our Brown bear season.
The more I experiment with larger rounds like the 416 Rigby, 458 Lott, 500 Jeffery and 505 Gibbs - the more impressed I become with "little" 458 Win.
One advantage the 458 Win has over the Lott is that it requires a shorter bolt throw - this may appear to be nit-picking to those who have never had to face a real short-range charge but I assure you that in those situations it seems to matter a lot. Karamojo Bell and numerous African PH's also have stated the same.



Compared to the larger 458 Lott the 458 Win does not look impressive - neither does the 45ACP when compared to the 44 mag - but both have proven track records as stoppers when it counts.

.458 Only

Good load info.

Back in the day, before some of these new powders were around a lot of people used IMR 3031 for the 458 Win Mag.

If possible I think it would be intresting to see how IMR 3031 would do in your rifle, compaired to the powders you have already loaded.

My standard load has always been 70 gr of IMR 3031 behind either 500 gr Hornady or TB bullets and in my 20 inch barrel it gets around 2050fps - which for my use here in Alaska has been sufficient.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
One advantage the 458 Win has over the Lott is that it requires a shorter bolt throw - this may appear to be nit-picking to those who have never had to face a real short-range charge but I assure you that in those situations it seems to matter a lot.

458Win,
In that case ... what are your thoughts on michael458's 'wildcat' the 458B&M? Even shorter bolt throw and 2100+fps from a 500gr from a WSM length action.

Would you run one if your life and that of your clients depended on it?
Cheers...
Con