jet --
you might take 20 mins and look for winmag vs lott brass.

if you are planning on reloading, you would find the lott does the same velocity as any 458 winmag can... at lower pressure... and therefore SLOWER recoil

if those words are just read, i have provided you valuable infromation. if you pay 20 mins looking, you might laern a thing

hint - i have heard that winchester themselves no longer makes winmag, even on a seasonal run. call them and ask

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
My PH on my recent hunt was loading 74 grains of 2230 and a 500 A Frame and had no pressure signs whatsoever. He's been using that load for several years and swears by it. Whe I get started, I'll work up toward it and see what happens.

My load of 2230 was a couple of grains lighter. I stopped when I got the velocity I thought was needed, instead of trying for the maximum velocity.

You know, one thing not mentioned here is that chronographs were basically not widely available until about 1961. Before that the ammo companies routinely lied, in some cases, about velocities. Most egregious was the .22 Jet so-called pistol cartridge, advertised by Remington as getting 2460 fps. Chronographs showed about 1800. When cornered about this, Remington lamely explained that the 2460 was in a 30" rifle barrel. The only firearm actually available, however, was a S&W revolver. Other cartridges which were "restated" included the .243 and the .264. So Winchester could have been fibbing about the .458's velocity all along. One favorite trick was to offer rounds only in 22" barreled rifles while quoting ballistics from much longer barrels. I have heard, BTW, that the old English double cartridges are actually about 100 fps slower than the fabled 2150 for the same reason.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
jet --
...

if you are planning on reloading, you would find the lott does the same velocity as any 458 winmag can... at lower pressure... and therefore SLOWER recoil

if those words are just read, i have provided you valuable infromation. if you pay 20 mins looking, you might laern a thing

hint - i have heard that winchester themselves no longer makes winmag, even on a seasonal run. call them and ask

Mike Bellm and I did a .458 Lott Encore pistol for grins, showing the versatility of the cartridge. One handable (barely) with 350 grain bullets and 70-ish grains of RL7. I did it because A: It's Funny on the level of "you call that a forty five? THIS is a FORTY FIVE!" and B: I had brass and dies anyway because my "serious" .458 hunting rifle is a Lott not a WinMag. I don't load for WinMag just like Winchester doesn't and I already had a Lott reamer, two of them actually.

Yeah, loaded to be usable as a pistol you can't really go a Lott (pun intended) past hot .45-70 Encore pistol loads before it gets to be less than comfortable to shoot but it IS funny and entertaining to shoot. 18.5" pipe so it's stockable without being a SBR too for brush gun purposes and you don't lose THAT much velocity. Added case capacity doesn't hurt at all there as a carbine.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
you can load a lott down to a winmag .. the converse is not true, unless you have your bullets set to lott length

and the ole "150fps dosen't matter" .. great, let's play that game

150fps doesn't matter
so a 450 dakota is as good as a 460 weatherby

150fps doesn't matter
so a 450 rigby/lott is as good as a 450 dakota

150fps doesn't matter
so a 458winmag/450 NE is as good as a 450 rigby/lott

150fps doesn't matter
so a super stunt loaded 45/70 ruger only load is as good as a 458winmag/450 NE

150fps doesn't matter
so a 45/70 marlin load is as good as a super stunt loaded 45/70 ruger ony

150fps doesn't matter
so a 45/70 bp load is as good as a super stunt loaded 45/70 marlin

Therefore, if 150fps "doesn't matter" then the 45/70 is easily the equal of the 460 weatherby,in 6 easy steps

and claiming that a 458 winmag (nominally 500gr at 2150 at 3.34"OAL) is as good as a lott (nominally 500gr at 2300 at 3.65"OAL) is just as ridiculous.

Anyone who claims they can get 2200+ fps, and be withing spitting distance of a lott, needs to try EXACTLY the same techniques on a lott, and see if they only get 2350 or closer to 2400.

within boundaries, here is no replacement for deplacement, all else being equal.

Never thought to put it quite that way but you're slaying me here. Not quite tears in my eyes but quite well put.

I bought a Model 70 458 around 1970/71. They were then Super Grade and 22" barrel. I bought a box of Winchester factory ammo loaded with the 500 grain FMJ. It did 1960 f/s across an Oehler 10, the chronograph with a conducting grid on small paper screens.

I pulled one of the bullets and melted the lead out of it the remainder weighed a bit over 220 grains. Of course I would not have gotten all the lead out but even so most of the weight would have been jacket.

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
Why is it completely over looked that all Jack Lott did was reinvent the 450 Watts magnum long as the 458 Winchester is the 450 Watts short

Depending on your timeline (and there is argument on this and the developments were more or less parallel) you could put .450 Ackley in there too but how's this relevant to what's the better and more versatile case?

quote:

Depending on your timeline (and there is argument on this and the developments were more or less parallel) you could put .450 Ackley in there too but how's this relevant to what's the better and more versatile case?

Well with all the feathers flying about the lott is what the winchester was suppose to be is only true to the extent of Winchester was presented both both 450 watts long and short they opted short thats basically the run down of it can it. All that seems to be flying around is the same old bs that was said in the 50s 60s with newer powders the winchester is a contender

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:

quote:

Depending on your timeline (and there is argument on this and the developments were more or less parallel) you could put .450 Ackley in there too but how's this relevant to what's the better and more versatile case?

Well with all the feathers flying about the lott is what the winchester was suppose to be is only true to the extent of Winchester was presented both both 450 watts long and short they opted short thats basically the run down of it can it. All that seems to be flying around is the same old bs that was said in the 50s 60s with newer powders the winchester is a contender

It's one of those things that will be around forever like the belted or non-belted magnum argument and usefulness of short mags, aye? I went with Lott because I mostly do non-magazine rifles so WinMag being shorter was of no advantage to me and Lott brass is easy to come by compared to a number of comparables. To each his own.

Just like the debate on the 416 remington

Oops, I did not intend to create as much controversy, but I am delighted with the topic.

Oscar.

The Lott -- We all know this -- was developed to address the issues of compressed charges in the Win Mag in the African heat.

.458 Win Mag or Lott are the most popular calibers on the African continent for DG.

Win. Mag. will chamber in a Lott. Modern powders "fix" the compressed charge issues in the Win. Mag. -- But the Lott is still a larger case.

500 gr @ 2,200 fps. That's the criteria to load for. Both calibers meet this. You think you need a "flatter trajectory" -- then you need to let that nasty ol' elephant get a bit closer before you take that shot.

You man enough for that? Or you gonna whoosie out from a distance?

What powder would get 2200 f/s with 500 grainers if you have available Alliant, the Australian powders sold by Hodgdon and Vitavourri (spell??)

Soon I'm going to start reloading and in my country is only found in Gunpowder Tubal version 3000 and 5000. I also have a license, recharge, and have limited the purchase of piston 100 per year and 1 kg of powder per year. What do you think?

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
The majority of this thread is a history lesson, and interesting in it's own right. I appreciate the voluminous knowledge of Mac and others on the evolution of the .458 Win Mag.

But the question is, what's the story today?

I'm going to buy one for two reasons...I'm 66 and don't need the snot kicked out of me by a Lott for another 150 fps when the current crop of powders such as AA 2230 and good 450 and 500 grain bullets in the Win will do the job about as well as a .470 or the Lott, and it's relatively easy to find decent factory loads for the caliber, although I will roll my own.

I chroney'd the current Norma offering of the 500 A Frame from a buddy's Sauer with a 24" bbl and got an average of 2150 with an SD of about 10, IIRC. That's good enough for me and my next buffalo.

My PH on my recent hunt was loading 74 grains of 2230 and a 500 A Frame and had no pressure signs whatsoever. He's been using that load for several years and swears by it. Whe I get started, I'll work up toward it and see what happens.

Jet, there is nothing wrong with the 458 Win Mag today, nobody is saying otherwise. What is in dispute is did the 458 Win Mag have problems in it's infancy, or is this an old wife’s tale?

The fact is it did have some serious problems, that could have been fixed with a little more powder capacity, or a lighter bullet seated out farther. The fix for more capacity could have been fixed and still be used in a regular action, by simply using the 416 Rigby case shortened, and bottlenecked. Or used the full length 375 case in the pre-64 mod 70. If the cartridge had been very successful, as it would have if that had been done others would have made long actions as well.

People are talking out both sides of their face on this subject! It seems that those who were not even born yet, or were 10 yrs old like you seem to think that anything that happened in the 1950s are all fairy tales, and judge a thing on today's concept. The fact is when it came out the 458 Win Mag had problems that should have been remedied at THAT TIME, rather than waiting 50 yrs for it to come about!

First the short case was so it could be used in a standard action because the magnum actions were no longer available from any place other that Winchester back after WWII! Well that is back in HISTORY, and that is when it was having a problem, and the cartridge needed fixing then not now.

Like all cartridges then or today, everyone wants to push them to the absolute limit. That was the problem with the 458 Win Mag, then and the Lott today! There is absolutely no need to push the Lott to anything above the old reliable 450NE 3 1/4" ballistics which was the same as the target ballistics of the 458 Win Mag. The recoil would be manageable, and the cartridge would do anything the 458 Win Mag will do today, while producing far less chamber pressure, and sharp recoil in the same weight rifle.

As I said today there is no problem getting advertised ballistics, and reliability from the 458 Win Mag, but why bother when the LOTT case is available which will create the same ballistics with less chamber pressure, and no more recoil, and is easier to make feed well?

I have a 45-70 double, and No1, 458 RCBS double rifle, a 500/450No1 Express double rifle, a 458 Win Mag bolt rifle, and a 458 Lott bolt rifle. I find the Lott loaded to the 450NE 3 1/4" ballistics to be the best of the lot. Loaded with a 480 gr Woodliegh soft or solid, to 2150 fps to be pleasant to shoot, and lacks nothing on game or accuracy. The only thing I think would be better is a double rifle chambered for the original 450NE 3 1/4" flanged cartridge.

However for folks to say the 458 Win Mag never had any serious problems, that made it dangerous to use on big "BITE-BACKS" is simply founded in ignorance. At that time if the cartridge couldn't be made reliable, then it should have been re-designed, or dropped all together! .............

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Soon I'm going to start reloading and in my country is only found in Gunpowder Tubal version 3000 and 5000. I also have a license, recharge, and have limited the purchase of piston 100 per year and 1 kg of powder per year. What do you think?

Oscar.

Like Australia, get the 458 Lott.

quote:

Like Australia, get the 458 Lott.

Hello I already have the rifle, is a 550 Safari Magnum Ceska. What I have is no ammunition, but I'm going to get in a few months of cartridge refill authorization. To me it is very expensive ammunition 458 Lott and I do not trust much to shoot 458 Winchester Magnum rifle in the 458 Lott, because I've read that over time erodes the bedroom. I think that shooting a 458 WM rifle 458 Lott has to be an emergency measure.

Oscar.

MacD37,

Since I'm the one who brought up "old wives tales," I need to clarify something. I did not mean to imply that the .458WM didn't have compression problems as originally loaded, but meant to say that these had been long solved. My apologies if I failed to make this clear.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Hello I already have the rifle, is a 550 Safari Magnum Ceska. What I have is no ammunition, but I'm going to get in a few months of cartridge refill authorization. To me it is very expensive ammunition 458 Lott and I do not trust much to shoot 458 Winchester Magnum rifle in the 458 Lott, because I've read that over time erodes the bedroom. I think that shooting a 458 WM rifle 458 Lott has to be an emergency measure.

Oscar.

I doubt our shoulder or your accountant will allow you to shoot enough .458 WM in your Lott to cause a measureable erosion problem. It can happen, but it will take several thousand rounds to do anything damaging, especially if you do a good job of cleaning. Practice is more important, shot placement is KING........Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Hello I already have the rifle, is a 550 Safari Magnum Ceska. What I have is no ammunition, but I'm going to get in a few months of cartridge refill authorization. To me it is very expensive ammunition 458 Lott and I do not trust much to shoot 458 Winchester Magnum rifle in the 458 Lott, because I've read that over time erodes the bedroom. I think that shooting a 458 WM rifle 458 Lott has to be an emergency measure.

Oscar.

I doubt our shoulder or your accountant will allow you to shoot enough .458 WM in your Lott to cause a measureable erosion problem. It can happen, but it will take several thousand rounds to do anything damaging, especially if you do a good job of cleaning. Practice is more important, shot placement is KING........Tom

Indeed, I think like you, the practice is most important to improve at all, much to our sport, which is shooting and hunting. The placement of the shot is what really kills, the weight of the shot helps, but does not impact a bullet in a vital area is useless.

It is also true that you can practice at a lower cost in the rifle 458 Lott shooting 458 Winchester Magnum ammunition, but if I can help I will. I'm very cranky with my arms jejeje .

Regards,

Oscar.

Who needs a .458 Lott?
Modern .458 Win.Mag. ammunition is loaded to .458 Lott level.Impala Europe(www.impalabullets.at) has just hit the market with a .458Win.Mag. load that equals their .458 Lott. A 300gr LS Solid at 2890 fps and 5552 foot pounds. Pressure is moderate at 53000psi. The 300gr LS, even at lower speed, has proven to penetrate cape buffalo lengthwise. An even better stopper is their 420gr RNFP Solid which travels 2430fps in the Lott and 2360 fps in the .458 Win.Mag. This is still an impressive 5204 ft.lbs.Don't be confused at the Impala homepage. The new .458 Win.Mag.-300grain load is not yet listed there. Just take the .458 Lott 300gr ballistics.

quote:

Originally posted by scarabeus:
Who needs a .458 Lott?
Modern .458 Win.Mag. ammunition is loaded to .458 Lott level.Impala Europe(www.impalabullets.at) has just hit the market with a .458Win.Mag. load that equals their .458 Lott. A 300gr LS Solid at 2890 fps and 5552 foot pounds. Pressure is moderate at 53000psi. The 300gr LS, even at lower speed, has proven to penetrate cape buffalo lengthwise. An even better stopper is their 420gr RNFP Solid which travels 2430fps in the Lott and 2360 fps in the .458 Win.Mag. This is still an impressive 5204 ft.lbs.Don't be confused at the Impala homepage. The new .458 Win.Mag.-300grain load is not yet listed there. Just take the .458 Lott 300gr ballistics.

But despite what remains more powerful the 458 Lott, true?.

Oscar.

quote:

Don't be confused at the Impala homepage. The new .458 Win.Mag.-300grain load is not yet listed there. Just take the .458 Lott 300gr ballistics.

The 458 Winchester Magnum is also in the list and the tip of 300 grains sheds a speed of 2450 feet / sec and 458 Lott 2650 feet per second. Isn't bad. You leave the link:

Impala bullets

Oscar.

wrong link. It is www.impalabullets.at
The company is in Austria,NOT in RSA

quote:

458 Lott and 458 Winchester Magnum. Does it really make much difference?

You probably could tell the difference but I really doubt the critters you shoot would.

The WM works great with today's powders and bullets, the Lott just a little better. We don't know what powders will be available next year, 10, 20 or 50 years from now. If powder choices become (stay) limited the higher case capacity of the Lott adds some versatility in choosing reloading components. So I believe the Lott makes more sense long term.

As Far AS I see it the 458 Lott is with big bores. The 458 WIN Mag cannot shoot as fast as the lott not even close. So They can cry in there milk but it cannot do it.

The lott shoots the solid at 2335 FPS and the Soft point at 2280 FPS and thats a fact. I own one.

quote:

Originally posted by jro45:
As Far AS I see it the 458 Lott is with big bores. The 458 WIN Mag cannot shoot as fast as the lott not even close. So They can cry in there milk but it cannot do it.

The lott shoots the solid at 2335 FPS and the Soft point at 2280 FPS and thats a fact. I own one.

Not even close?

I can easily load 500 grain bullets in my .458WM to 2200. I could possibly load them higher but had no need to do so. I think that's pretty "close."

Incidentally, I'm shooting a 22" barrel. It may be even closer.

I prefer to shoot 450 grain flat point solids. The one time I shot a buffalo they penetrated end to end. All I would get with a Lott is more recoil.

If you need more stopping power than you get with a .458WM, you would probably be better off with a .500 Jeffery. Upping the .458 velocity 50 or 100 fps does little or nothing that you--or the buffalo--would notice.

I could take my solid up to 2450 fps and my soft point to 2320 fps. I get recoil but it doesn't hurt.

Thats nice but the point your missing is a 458 size hole is still a 458 size hole from a winchester or lott both will do the job one wont kill faster then the other.Some people take their Ackley books to heart

Thanks, I kinda thought the bullet size doesn't
matter it was all where the bullet went to like the Heart.
The 458 bullet is big enought to do the job.

Bullet size does matter but between the lott winnie rigby webbie the difference from my experience is on the shooters end in recoil the animal will not be able to tell

What do you mean lott winnie rigby webbie

meaning of the 458's they all serve the same purpose to put a 458 hole in your target

quote:

Originally posted by scarabeus:
wrong link. It is www.impalabullets.at
The company is in Austria,NOT in RSA

O.K thank you


Oscar.

Thank-you

I don't know if anyone who has responded to this thread has read the article on the .458 Winchester Magnum by the late Bob Hagel in BIG BORE Rifles & Cartridges, Wolfe Publishing Co., or not. But the book was published in 1991 and I think the article was originally written much earlier in the 1980's. In any case, if you have access to it you should read it.

His test results were from a Browning Safari .458 Win Mag with a 24" barrel and no less than 5 loads from 500-grainers were in excess of 2200 fps! Four were from the 500-grain Hornady SP, and one of those loads attained 2245 fps! None of the powders were "modern". 4 of the loads, including the one that attained 2245 fps, were from the same powder that made the Lott famous... plain jane IMR 4320! The other powder that made 2216 fps from the 500 Hornady was 748 BR.

His comment about pressure was that he never attained maximum pressure, or excessive pressure! The main difficulty was in getting enough powder into the case to ATTAIN max pressure!

So, the "myth" again of the Winchester creating "excessive pressure" in attaining something like 2200 fps is just that... "MYTH"!!!

So, there are those who want to keep on beating a dead horse??? Have fun while you're at it! It seems Lott owners are threatened for some reason by "facts"!

I have a Lott and a Winchester in my CZ 550 in .458 WM. Those who make a BIG point in having a Win Mag in their Lott ignore the fact that you have a Lott in your Win Mag if you have a CZ! To prove that point I'm going to load my .458 WM to SAAMI specs to keep Jeffe happy and see what difference it makes!

I'll report at the appropriate time! And Jeffe, please don't bug me about it... IF it ONLY makes 2150 fps, SAFELY, I'll own up!

Hagel said his Browning SAFELY made up to 2247 fps! Hmmm...

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I will continue with my 458 Lott and I do not obsess. I'll enjoy what I have .

Oscar

Hi all, I just returned from a cape buffalo hunt in south africa and had a failiure to penetrate with my 458 Win. I brought 500gr homeloads Hornady solids over 72 gr AA2230 but had to rely on my PH for the softpoints as they are illegal in the UK. I used a Winchester 510gr soft point, 20yrd shot smack in the middle of the shoulder broadside. Tracked it for nearly 3 hours when my solid finished it off. I am inclined to blame the bullet performace rather than the calibre however, I think a Barnes would have dropped it.
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Hi all, I just returned from a cape buffalo hunt in south africa and had a failiure to penetrate with my 458 Win. I brought 500gr homeloads Hornady solids over 72 gr AA2230 but had to rely on my PH for the softpoints as they are illegal in the UK. I used a Winchester 510gr soft point, 20yrd shot smack in the middle of the shoulder broadside. Tracked it for nearly 3 hours when my solid finished it off. I am inclined to blame the bullet performace rather than the calibre however, I think a Barnes would have dropped it.
Matt

I give you my congratulations for the buffalo, and I ask you if you can and want to put a photograph of the trophy, gun and ammunition.

Thank you,

Oscar.

Those old Browning safari's in 458 had a very marginal barrel contour for the caliber. The rifles were pretty light for that caliber. I bet they would wallop you pretty good.