I picked up a Browning Safari Grade 458 Win a few months ago and have been giving it a work out. It weighs 7 lb 13 Ozs and using any and all factory loads it doesn't kick as bad as my 458 Lott using 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps. The Lott is punishing off of the bench but the Browning is not too bad but definately not a pleasure.

465H&H

My Ceska 550 Safari Magnum has 25 inches of barrel and its weight is 9.26 lb.

Oscar.

Sure will do!
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Sure will do!
Matt

Thank you¡¡¡

Oscar

I own the CZ 550 American Safari 458 Lott. I know it can kill any animal in the world. When it leaves the barrel the bullet has over 6000 FT LB of Energy.

Really does not make a difference all you accomplish even if the bullet is moveing 2500 2600 fps is putting a 458 caliber hole in the game you are shooting at

As promised, I've test fired 6 loads involving my CZ 550 in .458WM at SAAMI COL of 3.34".

All components were the same except for the powders used.

Winchester cases trimmed to 2.498"

COL = 3.34"

Crimped into the cannelure of the 500-grain Hornady RN Interloc.

Primers were WLRM

Muzzle velocities are corrected to muzzle. Hornady's B.C. was input along with ambient temp. Crony was at ten feet from muzzle. Loads were fired before noon today.

One shot fired per powder. All were compressed to some degree, but only W748 was to the limit.

All were close to "book loads" or loads deemed perfectly safe from past experience. For example, 78grs of IMR4320 is one grain less than Hagel's load in WW brass. 80grs of AA2460 is well above Accurate Armes site, but gave approximately the same velocity as their 74gr load, which was very low pressure in their test setup. Also Hornady's load for AA2230 (78.3grs) is well above AA's recommended load of 72grs.

So there are too many variables with rifles used to make exact comparisons with loads developed in a lab using test barrels.

All of the loads I fired today are deemed safe in my rifle (only). Being a CZ, it has a 25" barrel, and the freebore for these loads was about 3/4-inch.


Results (Ball powders):

83grs W748 = 2076 fps (very mild and disappointing)

78grs H335 = 2200 fps - exactly! (by far the best powder used. Exact same results as when loaded to 3.51") This load could be safely increased by a couple of grains at 3.34".

80grs AA2460 = 2202 fps. Second best powder. Showed slightly more pressure signs than H335.

Results (stick powders):

78grs IMR4320 = 2161 fps (best of the stick powders tried. Could be increased by one grain, or more. Could perhaps reach 2200 fps.)

78grs Varget = 2154 fps (Very coarse. Same velocity as Hodgdon's manual using 4grs less)

76grs IMR4064 = 2104 fps (This powder represents one of the reasons why some have believed the .458WM to be barely capable of 2100 fps!) A very poor choice of a stick powder for the .458)

Though not included in this test, H4895 is perhaps the best, or very close to "best" stick powder for the .458WM and 500-grainers.

Also, not included was the famed AA2230, which may very well be the best overall powder for the Win Mag. I've never used it simply because AA powders were not being brought into Canada for some inane reason. I believe they are now being imported again, and I will give it a try as soon as I get my hands on some.

Another powder that looks good to me is TAC, being nearly identical to H335. H335 is THE powder recommended by Hornady for both the Win Mag and the Lott with their 500-grainers. Hornady claims it's the most consistent and very stable under extreme temperature changes. I find it to be the very best that I've tried so far with both 450's and 500's. Extreme spread with the 500-gr Hornady is 4 fps! And it's consistent each time I use it.

This is NOT an exhaustive test by any means, but it does, I think, prove a couple of points: 1) The .458WM at a COL of 3.34" is capable of shooting at least some 500's at 2200 fps from normal length barrels without undue pressure.

2) There's little question also that the right ball powders are the best choice. Along with that I'd personally recommend the WLRM primer. In lab tests it proved to be "hotter" than the Fed. 215, and also burned "longer". In my tests, using both, WLRM primers proved to give more consistent velocites (hence, pressures)as well.

Some of this will appear (and some does already appear) in my manual on the "great" .458WM.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Also, not included was the famed AA2230, which may very well be the best overall powder for the Win Mag.

AA 2230 is the nectar of the Gods for a .458 Win Mag!

Excellent post 458 Only, thank you very much for it.

Oscar.

Great info. Does anyone know why there would be such a difference between the AA load for 2230 at 72gr and the Hornady data at 78?
Matt

Hi MattMck I have already read your post about buffalo hunt. I like it very much.

Regards,

Oscar

Thanks Oscar, I will add more pics soon.
Matt

quote:

difference between the AA load for 2230 at 72gr and the Hornady data at 78

I shoot 72 gr of AA 2230 in my .458 WM behind 450 gr NF both solids and softs. My cases show NO signs of high pressure here. It consistently gives me 2250 fps. It is also a very accurate load in my rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Thanks Oscar, I will add more pics soon.
Matt

I'll take your word and expect to see those pictures soon.

Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

difference between the AA load for 2230 at 72gr and the Hornady data at 78

I shoot 72 gr of AA 2230 in my .458 WM behind 450 gr NF both solids and softs. My cases show NO signs of high pressure here. It consistently gives me 2250 fps. It is also a very accurate load in my rifle.

I started the post for this reason, then I check that with the current gunpowder and a proper barrel length you get performance very close to the 458 Lott.


Oscar.

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Great info. Does anyone know why there would be such a difference between the AA load for 2230 at 72gr and the Hornady data at 78?
Matt

I'll suggest a few:

1) The AA load was very low pressure (53,808 psi)whereas the Hornady load was probably close to max. The standard max psi for the Win Mag is 62,540 psi.

2) Different test procedure: AA's test was with a pressure barrel whereas Hornady's loads were tested in a pressure barrel and fired in a commercial rifle - a Ruger 77.

3) Different goals. AA's was to load with no compression whereas Hornady's evidently was to attain an MV that would still be under max psi but end with either 2150 or 2200 fps. 2200 fps is not therefore max, but 2250 in a 24" commercial barrel would be over max (or over what they considered a max with a safety margin).

Hope this helps.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Thanks 458, I have yet to chrono my loads but I have been led to believe that out of a 24 " barrel there is very little velocity gain from 72gr AA2230 to 78 gr, do you think this is so?
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Thanks 458, I have yet to chrono my loads but I have been led to believe that out of a 24 " barrel there is very little velocity gain from 72gr AA2230 to 78 gr, do you think this is so?
Matt

There are many variables, of course, as mentioned... including your particular rifle. I would think, however, that an additional 6 grains would make a very significant difference.

What make and model is you .458WM?

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

IIRC, my Hornaday Manual shows 2250fps with their max load of AA 2230.

I load 500gr Woodleigh solids over 72.5 grains of AA 2230 in Norma brass and use Fed 215 primers. The bullets are crimped in the cannelure. (Can't recall the weight of the load I use for 500gr Woodleigh softs offhand, it is different though close.)

My rifle is a double with ~26" barrels and my load runs 2145fps corrected to the muzzle (in both barrels.)

Using the same load with North Fork 450's, I get 2220fps, but the NF's are loaded out and crimped in the band that leaves just about one calibre of bullet in the case. Obviously, OAL is no issue for me. Leade or freebore is generous in my rifle, and even loaded out the NF's are more than .1" off the lands.

Both loads have worked very well for a number of elephants.

Disclaimer: These loads in my rifle are safe in only my rifle. If you wish to use any or all of the information I have provided, you use it at your own risk; start 5% to 10% low and work up.

(Edit to add that both my Woodleigh solid load and my NF solid load were pressure tested in a test barrel and tested well below max - but heed my disclaimer and warning!)

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
Thanks 458, I have yet to chrono my loads but I have been led to believe that out of a 24 " barrel there is very little velocity gain from 72gr AA2230 to 78 gr, do you think this is so?
Matt

I would add this to the foregoing:

At 71.5grs AA2230 Hornady shows 1950 fps from their 500gr.

At 72.8grs AA2230, Hornady got 2000 fps from their 500's.

1.3grs gave an additional 50 fps, so .5grs (72grs) might give an additional 20 fps.

So, it's very possible that you're NOT getting close to the 2159 fps that Accurate Arms received in their test lab from 72grs. You might be getting less than 2000 fps. As I say, there are too many variables to make an accurate guess. The only way to know for sure is to use your chronograph.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
IIRC, my Hornaday Manual shows 2250fps with their max load of AA 2230.

JPK

Hi JPK:

The Hornady max load of AA2230 for their 500's is 78.3grs at 2200 fps.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Another matter of importance is that Accurate Arms used Hornady 500gr RN in their test setup. The same bullet that I used. Those bullets are considerably shorter than monos (all copper or copper + zinc). That means that less powder would be used in monolithics to attain the same psi, and less powder could be used due to less volume remaining if a COL of 3.34" is maintained due to monos being significantly longer in the same weight.

That's NOT a concern in singles, doubles or MY rifle because of the long magnum-length action and really long freebore. But, my purpose for these tests was to show that at SAAMI COL the .458WM is STILL capable of attaining 2200 fps from 500's without undue pressure from several powders. Yet, I still want to do the same test using H4895, AA2230 and possibly TAC if it's available in Ontario.

This may be of value to those whose magazines ONLY allow a SAAMI COL. That's my only purpose, plus I wanted to know as well.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

My rifle is a CZ ZKK 602 458 Win Mag.

I think the larger case capacity of the Lott is an advantage. If you have a "magnum" length action the bullet can be seated further out in the Winchester case increasing powder capacity.

I aggree,
In long actons like the CZ the Lott functions more reliably. The win mags rounds dont rattle around in the long magazine.

That said if I said if I had a std length action like a Mauser 98/FN etc I would not cnage it to a lott, I would leave it as a Wim Mag.

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
My rifle is a CZ ZKK 602 458 Win Mag.

How nice it is unmistakable the trigger straight. Thanks for the photograph.

Oscar

Are there any 458 Winchester supporters that would recommend a 458 Winchester over a 458 Lott, to a new rifle buyer?

As in a brand new rifle no because CZ in the lott is the cheapest option into a 458 class rifle but if your in the market for a used rifle and its a really nice 458 win then yes Id suggest it

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
As in a brand new rifle no because CZ in the lott is the cheapest option into a 458 class rifle but if your in the market for a used rifle and its a really nice 458 win then yes Id suggest it

What if a new rifle is available both in 458 Win and 458 Lott at the same price. Which calibre would you recommend?

In other words, if all else is equal is there any reason to buy the 458 Win over the 458 Lott. And as we know all else can't be equal if the choice is between 458 Win and 460 Wby and 450 Rigby/Dakota.

So what are the advantages of the 458 Win over the 458 Lott

We build alot more lotts then winchesters for clients I prefer the winchester but all else equal same price id go for the lott because reloading supplies are easier to come by same price as winchester and you get a little more for your money

quote:

Originally posted by MattMck:
My rifle is a CZ ZKK 602 458 Win Mag.

That's essentially the same rifle as mine, except for the stock and mine has the deep magazine. There's a pic of mine on the header of my web site.

Something I didn't mention about the loads with the Hornady 500gr at 3.34" is that they fed from the magazine to chamber perfectly.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

quote:

Originally posted by Express_Rifles:
As in a brand new rifle no because CZ in the lott is the cheapest option into a 458 class rifle but if your in the market for a used rifle and its a really nice 458 win then yes Id suggest it

Thius is where I come out too. If you have found a nice second hand 458wm, you are set and should live happily ever after. If you are commissioning a rifle, might as well go for the Lott.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McGuire:
Are there any 458 Winchester supporters that would recommend a 458 Winchester over a 458 Lott, to a new rifle buyer?

I think that's a moot point for several reasons:

There are advantages both ways. I handled a CZ 550 in BOTH .458 Lott and .458WM at the same store and CHOSE the .458WM for these somewhat personal reasons (why I suggest to folk, even in my manual, that they should make up their own mind as to what they should choose based on their own goals and criteria):

1) I've always liked the .458WM

2) I wanted one for a long time in an M70 with a 22" barrel.

3) Either they were not available at the stores I visited or were (comparatively) too expensive. I did buy a used Ruger 77 with a 22" tube at one point.

4) I really wanted a bolt-action .45-70, and thought this was the most practical solution.

5) I wanted to use it for hunting North American big game like moose.

6) I'm just a fan of .458" caliber.

7) The .458WM could be loaded (in my view) to "hot" .45-70 levels more conveniently than .458 Lott.

8) The CZ I purchased .458WM had better wood in it than the Lott.

9) More components were available (where I live) for the .458WM than for the Lott.

10) Lott ammo and brass (Hornady) were very expensive compared to .458WM.

11) The only commercial brass available in our area is Hornady.

12) There is an abundance of .458WM brass around from friends, club members and shops in our area.

13) The difference between the two in ballistics isn't worth arguing over:2200 fps vs 2300 fps in 500's.

14) In the ammo I make for hunting: 350gr TSX at 2750 fps - there's no need even for that! Indy gets 2700 fps from the same 350 TSX, 3" less barrel, 2grs less powder at standard cartridge length in an M70.

15) All things considered, I'd still opt for the .458WM for myself, and not because it can equal a Lott by seating out bullets! Would I recommend it over the Lott to others? No! Neither would I recommend a Lott over the Win Mag!

As stated above, IMHO, it's a moot point.

That's my take on it anyway.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I think I should add this one point: I don't relate to debating the advantage of 100 fps! But there is a very significant difference in recoil between those two velocities (2200 vs 2300)in shooting 500's in my rifle! And, I don't think it's worth it!

If I were 20 years younger and wanted (for whatever reason) more velocity than 2200 to 2250 fps from a standard .458WM from 500's, I'd opt for the .460 WBY! In fact, I've been tempted to have mine rechambered to the .460. But reality sets in when I ask myself, "Why?"

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

458 Only, your takest few arguments and I am so right now I feel a bit silly for having bought a 458 Lott. In principle, I really liked my caliber 458 Lott, but I am not satisfied that there is a real difference between 458 Winchester Magnum and the Lott.

Greetings,

Oscar.

I agree with Phil. Properly loaded to 2100+f/s with a good 500 grs bullets, the 458 Win will take any game on earth under any conditions. Mike LaGrange has more ele experience than all on this forum together.. He knows for sure what works.. Talked with Ron Van Heerden (former Nat.Parks warden) two weeks ago on my last hunt in RSA. He seemed to agree that the 458 Win loaded to 2100 f/s was about on par with the 470 NE, and he has used the 470 for more than 2000 elephants.. Those old wardens have lots of practical experiende which cant be ignored..
Myself I would still go with the Lott, but only because I could keep pressures lower and that using 550 grs bullets was an option..

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win
Mike LaGrange - with 6000 elephants under his belt - claimed the standard 458 was his favorite and perfectly adequate for any game under any conditions. Harry Selby traded in his 416 Rigby for a standard 458 and Finn Aagaard claimed that most of the bashing of the 458 - including Jack Lott's - was due to poor shooting.
Even Jack Lott said that all he was after was and honest 2150fps with a 500 grain bullet and the standard 458 with today's modern loads easily gives that.
If you want more velocity the Lott is a great round but if you honestly think 100-200 fps makes that much difference why not go to the 460 WBY ? It is everything the Lott should have been.

Sure it made a difference, a bad difference at Winchester.
They being gone is due to bad decisions, in the cartridge
and gun realm. This was 1st major screw up,
of the two, other being the short mag debacle.

If it was so important for WIN to have a 458, it should have
been the Lott or similar length case way back when.
And it would have given them nearly all the market.
And would have gotten them and the shooting fraternity into the idea
that big guns need little longer actions, and that carrying around
a gun with action 1/4 inch longer won't hurt you, and also would
have promoted the correct idea that an elephant gun should be
9-10 lbs, not 6.5-7 lbs.

In fact they really should have adopted Elmers baby, 475 OKH, now
the 470 Chapstick, and they still have most sales and would have
picked up a lot of other sales where guys were going bigger
than 458. Oh well Weatherby appreciates them for being stupid.Ed

With the many thousands of .458 Win Mags in use and in gun cabinets all over the globe, I don't fear in the least that it's going to go away any time soon, any more than the ancient .30-06 has gone into obsolescence due to the multitude of 300 magnums available.

And my oh my, hasn't the 475 OKH and the 470 Capstick been a roaring commercial success. And I fully expect the 700 KILLEMDEADERnDEAD will be every bit as commercially successful!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Fine thread...thanks to all.

Implicit in much that has been written here but not directly addressed is an issue Terry Wieland brought up in Dangerous Game Rifles: the ease of downloading the Lott due principally to its larger case. And I mean loading WAY down, both bullet weight and powder charge. To, for example, whitetail ballistics.

Haven't tried it, but it is certainly doable and sounds like fun. Be the first kid on your block to shoot a 180gr. bullet at 2400fps from a 458 Lott!

So daring to say that WIN screwed up by not
taking up a long 458 case means what I do has
no merit.That is silly. I'm not "commercial".
I'm not Ruger or Rem or CZ, or Wea, etc, of which you
must be to be a "commercial" success case.. Any long case that
Win would have went with would have given them 98% of
the big bore market. But the short case getting bad reviews
about compressed load problems, etc, slowed sales like the
wheels falling off of a truck.The 458WIn is a fairly great case
that needed .35-.40" more length, and WIN screwed up by
not doing it. The Capstick wasn't a "commercial" success just
because A-SQ was not a Ruger, REM, etc. But if there would have
been long 458 or 475 WIN, They'd have sold many hundreds
of thousands and in the millions in all makes. And
been the big bore standard by which all big cases would have
been judged. As it is,those wildcatting 458s try to match or outdo
the Lott, so it has become the standard to judge by, not a short
case that .........

wpsuth- You are so right, it is so much easier to get loads to
fit specific needs when the case has the right proportions
of length and diameter, like the Lott gets close to. And with
more volumne you can make loads, with more power, that start
easier, getting to peak pressures slower, but giving more velocity,
due to higher average Mean Barrel Pressure, and have less
felt recoil, in the properly designed gun.You can make deer
loads with lighter weight spire point bullets that can shoot as
flat as a 30-06, still with much more weight compared to 06..Ed