Oh, and by the way, I am having some sort of printer issues, and the print on the labels is ugly, my apologies for such sorry work!

Michael

Next up is from my "Hero Cartridge" one might say, the 500 Nitro and the 570 BBW #13 by CEB, copper 70% meplat.







I need not say too much, the performance speaks for itself I think!

M

Now we wanted to test some at higher velocities, the 510 Wells was able to do that.

In this instance, this day, extra velocity did not mean more penetration? Whether that is a trend or not with this profile one really can't say, I somewhat doubt it myself. Regardless there of, there was more trauma inflicted of course. And really, once one goes this deep in this medium, pretty much does not matter from there.






Michael

And the really hard test for a bullet, testing it's construction, it's material makeup, and it's ability to penetrate hard, bullet destroying material, the ultimate "Reasonable" test,

The T'Rex!












Proud to say that the 570 BBW #13 CEB Copper, passes the T'Rex test with flying colors!

Sometimes we take some photos from the range work, but I almost always forget what is what if you take several photos. Here are some photos of the #13s at the very end of penetration and you can see how they are headed straight forward as they were found.

Either 500 gr 470s or 570 500 Nitros, I forget?











Hey, I just saw in this photo about "Feeding Your Pet"---I say feed your pet elephant or buffalo, a New BBW #13!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And of course of SPECIAL NOTE----21st Century Style!

Several Entire Generations of Shooters have been fooled into thinking a Round Nose Full Metal Jacket is the Best thing on the planet to feed your Pet Elephants!

Oh my, that was good, you have to admit it!

Speaking of "OLD" things! Sam had a Original Kynoch Load, and we gave it a whirl in the 500 Nitro!

And last but certainly not Least--the New MIGHTY 577 Nitro, with new life breathed into it's soul, a new Mighty Bullet that now the 577 Nitro might just live up to it's reputation of old for real however now;












I believe that with these bullets, that a 577 Nitro might now actually build a reputation that is deserved!

M

That's all for now boys and girls!

However, stay tuned, if what Sam and I have planned for you this week turns out the way we think that it "Might", then you are in for a new treat, never before seen in public! Stay tuned, one never knows what might turn up here on the one, the only,


T-B-P!



HEH

Michael

As shooters and hunters we make many choices as we move forward. What rifle? What Cartridge? What apparel do I need for the next hunt? What Powder to use for my loads? How much velocity do I need?

However, all combined it comes down to the "BULLET" we choose that can and "sometimes" does decide whether the entire affair is either a great success, with shared smiles, back slaps, and handshakes, and most important, that Ice Cold Celebration BEER after the grand event--or a miserable, worrisome, thought provoking, failure!


Come now, really, what would you choose?






If you are a double sorta chap, what would you choose?

Michael

Heh michael, quick question.
Been kinda pouring thru the above tests, and trying to figure out whether you have determined that the % of meplate dia. for optimum straight line penetration remains consistant even when velocities drop dramaticly, as with bullets fired from handguns. . . . .
Or does changing velocities change optimum meplate dia?

By the way, I'm glad to see you haven't been washed away with those storms you guy's back there been getting.

Hey Dennis.

Well, that's hard to be 100% sure on that, as one would have to do a lot of testing at a few different velocities to check that out proper.

My gut tells me that optimum meplat size remains somewhat constant, from at least 1800 fps up. What one might find, in particular with handguns, is that optimum meplat size might be a larger percentage when velocity drops below 1500 fps or so. You might find that 70% to 75% is optimum meplat size for penetration at those velocities or much less, in particular with handgun.

For the time being, until proven different, I hold the position that between 65% and 70% is optimum for straight and deep penetration depending on Nose Profiles, for rifle cartridges capable of 1800 fps and up.

Michael

Thanks Michael, I will continue to order my handgun moulds with that in mind.

As I have said before, best informational thread I've seen anywhere.

Big D

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I believe that with these bullets, that a 577 Nitro might now actually build a reputation that is deserved!

M

Now now doc M

the 577 has its reputation because it works either with the solids or with a monometal, it just gets the job done.
i am glad to see you are in the big bore class now and stop playing with those medium bore 500's

what have you and sam cooked up now ?

cheers

peter

Michael... Seems you are taking the danger out of dangerous hunting by making bullets that will work flawlessly on the right shot!
A side note it looks like a bit if blow by on the 510 wells test bullets. Can you measure the base band? Maybe up the diameter of the base band by a half thou to ensure a good seal.

Boomstick,

I will answer that question on the blow by. In the 510 Wells the lower band was below the neck of the case so there was nothing touching to seal at the base until the bullet started moving. This is why you see blow by. Band diameter was .509.

Sam

Thanks for the reply. Being DR specific these are beaut's!

Hey Dennis,

Michael is correct in the optimum meplat range being 65% to 70%.

However I think I’ll do Michael one better…from my tracking and analysis of the thread.

I’ll define optimal performance as being maximum penetration while maintaining within-mass straight-line penetration with minimal within barrel bearing surface. So with this definition in mind, slow twist rates will do better at 70% while fast twist rates will do better at 65%. And so that we have a “ball park” to start with, a 14” twist rate will be best at between a 67% to 68% meplat.

I’ll also note that some really slow twist rates…think hear older double barrel and lever action rifles…may need a meplat in the 72% to 74% meplat range for optimal performance. But I’ll still support Michael’s meplat range statement.

Anyway, that’s my opinion and I’m standing by it!

Will now hunker down while awaiting the flames!!!

No flames Jim.

I have a habit of having LBT moulds made up and good to know what works best.

Heh, do give me a holler when you get back in the area and we'll go argue stuff over coffee.

Dennis I'll email you before we leave and will phone after we arrive. Look forward to jawboning over a cup.

I have range cleanup duty this morning! Always fun, and get out of the office a bit.

Concerning primary the entire BBW #13 Program--Sam is changing the final bands, adding two more bands in the dead space between top and bottom band--4 bands total. He may make them a little smaller reducing bearing surface for the modern doubles. Bullets will be copper for these, and traditional weights in given caliber.

.510=570 gr
.474=500 gr
.458=500 gr

Now, before we make a run of these bullets, is there anyone out there that wants to add to this order????? The more we add, the better the price will be in the end.

Right now, I am not sure what the price is going to be in the end, but if you have interest in the bullets I can try and get a firm price for us, depending on how many.

If you are interested (this is not a commitment yet) just say so, and how many you are interested in, then we get a price and we go from there.

Most are not interested in my .500s, as there are not that many out there, other than folks I have direct contact with. I am ordering 1000 of the 500 gr Brass #13s for my 50 B&Ms and 500 MDMs--and another 1000 of the 425 coppers for the lever guns.

Also, Once everything is sorted out I will be doing a #13 in .474, 458, and probably 416 too. The .474s will be lighter for the B&Ms, 458 will be 450 grs, and 416 will be 350 or so. These will be the smaller multi bands, I think it's 6 bands or so. All more or less for the bolt guns. If you have interest in any of these let me know too.

Also I will be taking the BBW profile too in some bullets. But this is going to be some time to do, #13s first, BBW profile next. Personally I will be using the #13s and the BBW profiles in the future for all my work, in conjunction with the North Forks. Those 3 profiles are the ones I am going with from now forward.

Michael

Michael,

I think the .458 bullets for the doubles will be 480 grain to match the weight used in the old cartridges.

Sam

sam and doc. M

had a bit of fun yesterday with the last 12 bore bullets.

this is with normal remington slugs:


and this is with the brass 690 grains slug sam made for me, it now travels 1900 fps, and you can feel it is there.


this is getting fun now

peter

Peter

An excellent show! Well, from that mild recoil level, we need to go up in bullet weight, and higher velocity looks like to me?

HEH!!!!!!!

The normal remington slugs look like nothing, maybe a big 22 LR.

Business is beginning to pick up with the real bullets!

Bullet order placed by the way. Request for 560 gr Hollow Base Coppers!

Michael

Michael

Count me in as very "interested"!

PM sent.

Great job guys!!

.500 caliber from 450-grainers up to 550-grainers interest me.

.500 caliber from 450gr up to 510gr...plus that nifty upcoming HP Spitzer…is my interest zone!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Peter

An excellent show! Well, from that mild recoil level, we need to go up in bullet weight, and higher velocity looks like to me?

HEH!!!!!!!

The normal remington slugs look like nothing, maybe a big 22 LR.

Business is beginning to pick up with the real bullets!

Bullet order placed by the way. Request for 560 gr Hollow Base Coppers!

Michael

thanks doc M

i am looking forward for that, as you can see it will help me getting the bullets upto those 20-2100 fps which should be the sweet spot for these bullets and elephants.

fun part of the shooting is that with sams bullets we are close to the 100 fp of free recoil and thanks to the outdated stock design it actually handles pretty good in a 7 pound gun
so i will let you and boomy shoot it like that

best

peter

Hey Don

Got you covered buddy!

RIP, I know exactly where you are going! And what you are thinking. With the 500 MDM I thought the same, I needed a 550. Well, I am going to be honest with you, you don't need anything more than the 500 gr! That's what I learned with the 500 MDM, I got little or not much more with a 550 than the 510s. Now with a #13, take a look at the 540 I think, that I tested in the 500 MDM, and then a look at the 500s in the 50 B&M. Not much, I know the 500s were at 66 inches, I think maybe I recall the 540s at 70??? I can look it up for sure, but not much more. Anyway, hell we can get anything done you want that's the beauty of the thing!

Jim, got you covered too.

I have already ordered 1000 of the 500 gr Brass #13s and a 1000 of the 425 Copper #13s in .500 caliber. I don't know the exact cost, does not matter much as I got to have them! 500 gr Brass I will use in the 500 MDM and the 50 B&M, and the 425 Copper #13s are designed specifically for the 50 B&M AK in the lever guns, and in particular will work thru the damn Marlins!

Peter, that was my thoughts EXACTLY, the 560 Copper would get you to 2000 plus, and with a proper designed bullet will be enough, and will enhance your 12 bore beyond anything it has ever known in it's history!

Honestly the heavy load just did not look like it was hammering hell out of you! Of course one has to know how to handle the big bores, and you obviously do handle it well. I looked viable to me and handles well enough for the mission at hand. Boomy is a big boy, that gun won't even move for him! Me, I am a puny, scared little rat of a fellow, might knock me completely backwards! HEH HEH........


Boys, it really amazes me how much we have accomplished in the last year. Thread is coming up in November this year, 1 year old. I thought I knew something when I started it then, but as we move forward, even as much as I have done with this before, I didn't know crap! Getting there! I can tell you this too, because of this thread, I have found some great friends, and been reaquainted with some older friends! This has brought a wealth of experience both to me, and to you, by having not only my ideas as input, but their ideas as well. Along with many of you guys and your ideas and thoughts. This has been an effort on everyone's part here, not just me or a chosen few, everyone has had tremendous amount of input and ideas and we have come far. Had it not been for Sam and Corbin, we would not even be looking at new double rifle bullets, it would not be part of my equation, or within my expertise. Had it not been for Tanzan, I would have probably put off the 338 tests. Buffalo sent samples all the way from Denmark of several bullets, included GSCs, others have sent samples that we just don't have access to everywhere. It's been an amazing collaboration of shooters to pool our resources so that we could all share in the wealth of information I think is here. Thanks to all for this, and thanks for all the experiences we have gained through it.

Michael (Doc M)

Michael

Re: BBW #13, count me in for 1 box 570 gr. for my .500 Nitro and 1 box 750 gr. for my .577 Nitro. Both are modern (V-C) doubles. I plan to use RL 15 powder.

If they regulate well, I'll order a lifetime supply.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
As shooters and hunters we make many choices as we move forward. What rifle? What Cartridge? What apparel do I need for the next hunt? What Powder to use for my loads? How much velocity do I need?

However, all combined it comes down to the "BULLET" we choose that can and "sometimes" does decide whether the entire affair is either a great success, with shared smiles, back slaps, and handshakes, and most important, that Ice Cold Celebration BEER after the grand event--or a miserable, worrisome, thought provoking, failure!


Come now, really, what would you choose?






If you are a double sorta chap, what would you choose?

Michael

Michael,

I expect that your question was rhetorical and you really didn't expect an answer. But being the contrary sort of guy that you respect and love, I thought I would take a shot at it.
Here are my choices and reasons behind them.

If I was choosing a bullet for buffalo I wouldn't select either. I prefer to use a strongly constructed soft for buff in all cases. If I was hunting a trophy bull elephant or a single hippo on land esp. a Botswana bull ele, I would chose the FN solid. I would be mindful that I might have to pass up a shot where a shoot through could hit another elephant.

If I was hunting tuskless cows, tusked cows or actually any elephants in a herd situation then I would chose the RN solid. Still more than enough straight line penetration for any reasonably angled shot and a much less chance of a shoot through.

465H&H

You have spent a lot of money, obviously put in many hours and presented your case very well, I found it very interesting, but pretty much as I would have predicted and but I assure the same old aguements will continue, so other than for your own satisfaction it may have been all for naught.....

Like Alf, I place a lot of importance on SD, but the monolithic and bonded cores have changed the equasion to some extent, but at the same time I find monolithics in 375 etc to be way too long and tend to tip when they meet mass..I believe a monolithic should be lighter than the norm with more velocity to be effective. I believe that the heavy for caliber cup and core or bonded core bullet should be heavier than norm, such as the 350 gr. .375 and 450 gr. 416 Rem and they have the penetration and show the benifit of SD. these two heavy weights are my all time favorit soft for buffalo, hands down and I like both the PP and the RN. The PP has more penetration btw, and is at its best for bachalor bulls. The RN is herd shooting. The solid is for Charging and running away bulls for me and my mind is made up, with a soft on top and followed by flat nose solids.

I really like those Woodleigh softs on buffalo as they are more ragged than the Swifts and cause more internal damage in my experience and have proben themselves for decades albiet they are velocity specific to a point. I also and a dyed in the wool believer in the GS Customs flat nose solids and I do love those North Fork cup points on buffalo..I have done some testing in stacks of dry magazines as the dry mags tend to tear up bullets wherein wet magazines tend to create nice pretty mushrooms..The best test media is a buffalo IMO.

All of the above is only my personal take on the subject.

Amazing however that about all of TODAYS bullets do a great job, yet we get in these conversations that can escalate into WW11 ! when actually most of these conversation have no real merit today. Using the wrong weight bullet or a improperly designed bullet for buffalo is the culprit today, it is surprising how many folks will show up with a .375 or whatever with a bullet primarily designed for plainsgame, and they usually work but I wouldn't make book on it.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
You have spent a lot of money, obviously put in many hours and presented your case very well, I found it very interesting, but pretty much as I would have predicted and but I assure the same old aguements will continue, so other than for your own satisfaction it may have been all for naught.....

ray

i think you need to read the whole tread as we had some quite supprising results that pretty much destroyed the idea of SD.

a 370 grains bullet of same shape as the 500 grains bullet except it were hollowed out, and at the same vel. it penetrated as well as teh 500 grains, now remember same bullet same vel same rifle only difference were the weight, and it penetrated the same......

go figure but SD is apparently not SD anymore

best

peter

HI 465HH

Good to see you around! I was hoping someone would bite on that one, but I had to wait for someone "Contrary" enough to jump on it, and it's my bud 465 HH! Well respected and loved no doubt! HEH.

Now here is a shocker, I am not going to argue with you of course, we discuss things you and I, and I am not even going to disagree with your choices, on the basis that you choose, they are sound.

WHAT?? Have I lost my Mind?

No people, it's not a right or wrong thing, it's just a different hunting "Philosophy" that 465HH and I have. Neither right nor wrong, just different, and both a compromise in many ways, just as a lot of things in shooting are compromises.

I would choose for buffalo one of many excellent strongly constructed expanding bullets also, and have many times, Swifts, Woodleighs, non cons, and probably some I can't remember. But in my case, today I would back those up with a big flat nose solid, of proper proportions of course, 65%-70% meplat. Yep, fellow has to be careful on shoot throughs, but you have to be careful anyway with most of the strongly constructed expanders, as it is more than just a possibility that they too may pass through. On from the rear shots, even the very best of expanding bullets, "may" not reach the vitals? Some can, some times, but not all the time, and nothing you can count on.

There in lies the compromise. While 465HH is willing to compromise penetration with solid shots because of pass throughs, I am not, but I must compromise and be more cautious because of it! It's a choice, and a difference of philosophy and that is all.

On tuskless, cows in herds, there is nothing wrong with 465 HH philosophy once again. He is choosing the RN because of it's limited penetration. As tuskless and cows are not big body bulls, the deepest penetration is not needed and the RN will most of the time get the job done, without pass through. I think I would investigate something that I would have a little more confidence in, a strong non-expanding cup point possibly, possibly the Woodleigh Hydro, but I would want to put the hydro to the T'Rex before decided to give that a go. Penetration of the hydro is considerably less than it's counterpart with a flat nose, and from limited tests here they all appear to give dead straight line penetration. So this might be a good choice for in between my philosophy and 465HH. Me? Hell, I am going with the deep diver of course! There might be a big ass bull in that herd that slips in behind me, and I might just want to blow a big flat nose from the front to the rear of him! Again, just a different philosophy!

Now, when it comes to the big bull elephants, and the hippo on the dirt, both 465HH and I are spot on the money! Hammer down hard and hammer down deep---and one always does ones best to know what is on the other side, and for that matter, what's behind you too!

Well done 465 HH, well done!

Michael

If you don't want a pass thru on herd animals why wouldn't you want a good expanding bullet over a tumble solid. That RN solid might just do crazy things and penetrate straight when you don't want it to. If you have to put a follow up shot at a running away animal then you would want the most penetration you can get. I'm going to stick with a big flat nose deep penetrating solid and if I kill something behind what I'm shooting at I'll pay the fine. If I worried about pass thru it will be a good soft in the other barrel.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by srose:
If you don't want a pass thru on herd animals why wouldn't you want a good expanding bullet over a tumble solid. That RN solid might just do crazy things and penetrate straight when you don't want it to. If you have to put a follow up shot at a running away animal then you would want the most penetration you can get. I'm going to stick with a big flat nose deep penetrating solid and if I kill something behind what I'm shooting at I'll pay the fine. If I worried about pass thru it will be a good soft in the other barrel.
Sam

srose,

The reason I would go with the RN solids in certain cases is that I have put over 100 of them into buff and elephants and have yet to see one go off course, at least to any degree that I could measure. All have gone plenty deep enough to get the job done. I have complete confidence in them. Most of the time they are stopped by the hide on the off side. Since the hide acts as a tramploine the RN pushes against it and is stopped by its streatching out. The FN on the other hand cuts trough the hide then continues on its merry way.


465H&H

Ray

Good to see you back! Well damn, think of all the money I could have saved, all I had to do was "Ask Ray"!

Oh well, that's the way it goes I suppose! Now Ray, maybe you should have read Page 1 of the thread, and you can plainly see, I have been doing this a very long time, and I have been doing it for myself, and to further "my" knowledge, last November I decided to share what I find here on AR, for better, or not, depends on the individuals ability to absorb and discern information.
I know I continue to learn, and for some folks, you are correct, it's all for naught!

As for SD, that's almost not even a factor anymore. Only in comparison between bullets that are exactly the same in other aspects, and as Peter points out, not even in that case sometimes! As we have proven here.

To help you catch up, here are the factors that are of importance to deep and straight line penetration, in order of importance;

Nose Profile
Meplat Size
Twist Rate
Velocity
Construction
And "Maybe" SD now, but as time moves forward I question that?

If we move to expanding bullets, conventional/premiums and non conventional, once again, SD is not much of a factor, and the way a bullet is designed to perform during terminals is far more important in the transfer of trauma, and penetration. So SD has little value here either.

Ray, today there are hardly no such thing as a bad bullet. If we look we can find a fit for most everything, while one bullet may fail in one arena, it may very well excel in another, we must make the right choices for the mission at hand. While I have used both Woodleigh and Swift on buffalo, and had excellent results with both, today I would rather go non conventional than either of those. Non Conventional? Let me catch you up quickly on that. A brass or copper HP that actually sheds it's petals, and the remaining slug continues to penetrate, many times exiting the animal, causing far more trauma, and tissue damage, than if the petals did not shear and penetration being limited. Another "Excellent" Non Conventional design, one that you mention yourself, NOrth Forks Expanding Cup Point!!!! Of which I have invested a good deal of effort and money in, for my very own .500 caliber rifles, I do mean .500, and not .510 by the way. And, in addition to those I will be doing the same in 474 caliber that will fit my 475 B&M and 475 B&M Super Shorts, both with new North Fork FPS and CPS in two different weights for each cartridge, and available to all, as are the .500s currently. I agree 110%, the North Fork Expanding Cup Points are extreme bullets! If you go back a few pages you can see this, North Forks have been tested here EXTENSIVELY and this led me to work with North Fork to develop new bullets specifically for my B&M Series rifles, these bullet enhance a cartridge far beyond what one could have envisioned for it to begin with!

There is no World War II here, sorry this is not your typical crap you will find "upstairs" on some other forums, this is a forum made up of shooters/hunters, and Big Bore is our thing.

OH, and one more thing, Michael does not come to the dance with a 375 anything, not even my very own, 375 B&M. 375 is not my thing! No offense to you 375 folks out there, just not my thing is all! The good life starts at ".458" and I used to stop it at .510, but boy these new BBW #13s that weight 750 grs and come in .584 caliber sure are looking grand are they not?

Well Ray, I reckon that's my story, and I am sticking to it!

LOL

Glad to see you back once again, and a big welcome to the "Terminal Bullet Performance", which I see we have now turned over to page 98, and 70505 views!

Do stay tuned, more to come!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The FN on the other hand cuts trough the hide then continues on its merry way.
465H&H

God knows that why I love them too! Big 1/2 inch holes for blood to pour out of both ends! Dear god in heaven forgive me, I do miss poking holes in buffalo this year! The very thought of hearing that big meplat hit flesh is, well..............I best not say I suppose, this is a family type forum!

465,

Hey if you like them stick with them! I have to say the bullets I have shot my buffalo and elephant with have been RN solids also and they got the job done! I will never shoot another one if I can help it!

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The FN on the other hand cuts trough the hide then continues on its merry way.
465H&H

God knows that why I love them too! Big 1/2 inch holes for blood to pour out of both ends! Dear god in heaven forgive me, I do miss poking holes in buffalo this year! The very thought of hearing that big meplat hit flesh is, well..............I best not say I suppose, this is a family type forum!

Like these, although it is just a .470 hole. There are more in the head and chest and of course exit wounds also. Kept shooting until I was out of ammo.

I will take pictures of the North Forks. Recovered 1 cup point from the big buffalo. Bent up pretty good. Two solids from the big buff also, one looks perfect, the other is bent on the nose. Not sure what it hit and after tracking, shooting, tracking, and killing that 49" monster right before dark I did not get involved in the necropsy.




Here is the rest of the buff. At 49" I guess I have a little bragging rights.

Oh yes, that's what I am talking about! Hey, .474 holes will do! I can live with that!

Non Cons, I found out in 2007, such as the Cup Point, and do you guys remember that funny bullet with the cuts in the meplat? I shot several buff with that thing, and after it got to the other side it would do all sorts of twists and turns, but it had already done it's job, as a non con.

In the heat of battle, and shortly afterwards, bullet digging is really not at the top of the list, even me! I saw that buff, he is a dandy! But aren't they all!

It's like I told you before you left, might as well shoot all those bullets, hell don't need to bring any home with you and be aggravated with the weight! And, putting those to work on buffalo is the best thing I can think to do with them!

Excellent, just excellent

Well, it's dark here in SC, and old people got to have their rest you know! Sam and I have a big day tomorrow on the range, and lot's of prep work, and lot's of ciphering going on tomorrow!

So we will catch you then!

Michael