quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Michael458,

You have several times referred to your experiences with RN solids veering off course on game. You may have detailed those experiences in the past but if you have I missed it. You appear to have had more bad experiences than others and I think it would be valuable to us all for you to detail those experiences. If you have time please list caliber, bullet make, form and construction, chronographed velocity, barrel twist rate, species of game, distance to game, entry and exit points along with major organs or bones hit. Thanks!

465H&H

Oh 465HH, I wish I could give you good and proper measurements, and information, unfortunately for many reasons I cannot. Let me explain;

First back in the early part of this decade and the late part of the one before the only solid I was using were the Barnes Round Nose solids. I shot buffalo, elephant and other assorted critters when required for backup and or primary such as in elephant. Today, when I look back on that experience I know see in many cases I had a lack of penetration, compared to what I know and have seen these days. But, honestly at the time, I had little reason, concern, and not enough knowledge of solids to know any better or different! I was ignorant.

It was only as late as 2006 that I started to clue in to this. I went on a whirlwind shooting expedition in the RSA for 5 days testing .500 caliber bullets from the first 50 B&M version. Mostly the common manufacturers at the time, a couple of custom bullets, and a small for caliber round nose brass solid of 405 grs. I had requested this bullet, and based pretty much on the same nose profile as a Woodleigh. I was still very deep into the development stage of the 50 B&M, and requested the round nose for feed and function.

Below on the far left is a photo of the orginal bullet and a copper one next to it.


Now while I was not shooting dangerous game, and I had tested all the expanding bullets that I was shooting, I decided to back up all shots on zebra, wildebeast, and everything else I was shooting with these solids. Did I test the solids? Nah, they were solids, why would I test them? My mission was to put to the test the expanding bullets I had to work with on animal tissue. Hornady, Barnes, Sierra, Remington, and a couple of custom made bullets.

So, in 5 days I shot 18 animals from impala to giraffe. This included mostly wildebeast, zebra, and eland. So I would fire the one expanding bullet, follow it up when needed with the solids. The expanding bullets did one hell of a good job, and really few followups were required, but shot anyway. I started noticing some "irregularities" in entrance and exit of the solids? But with time constraints, and efforts to push on, it remained just a bug in the back of my head. Honestly I did not want to believe that I was having any sort of issue with the solid, as at that time if I had an issue, I did not know what to do about it? I continued to shoot. I shot a running eland bad with a 500 gr Hornady, a little too far back. So I had a full day of messing with that eland. Loaded completely full of solids now, I got a shot at it roughly at about a 100 yds from the rear, and took it. The bullet hit below the tail, center, and exited the top of the back and hit a large tree limb above the eland, both the PH and I saw it, actually saw the bullet leave the eland go up and hit the tree knocking the bark off and going who knows where. I shot again, and while we did not see this bullet leave, it appeared to exit in the wrong spot also. From that point on I knew something was very wrong and I had a problem.

Later I shot a giraffe and from entrance to exit it had veered off course. Kudu, same story. These were really bad, and it seemed 100% failure to track straight.

No, I did no official measurements at this time, I did not know I needed to do this, I was very satisfied that this was in fact occurring, PH confirmed, entrance and exits confirmed, so I took no measurements to that effect. The twist rate was 1:18, too slow. Velocity as I recall was 2150 to 2200 fps with the 405. In fact I was 110% convinced the bullets were not capable of giving any substantial straight line penetration. I turned down an excellent deal, steal more like it, to go and hammer 4 left over quota elephants because I knew I did not have a bullet that was even close to adequate, and I did not trust it at all at this point.

What to do? Still I was rather ignorant in solid tech and knowledge at this time. I ran home to JD. Still concerned about feed and function, I had not learned much about these guns yet, still early in the development of. I wanted a bigger and heavier RN solid, so I instructed JD to get David to make a new bullet, same nose, from copper, but add 2/10ths of an inch to the base to increase the weight. I calculated it would be over 500 grs, it came out to 512 grs. I went to work testing then.

There was little or no improvement in penetration, veered off course, horrible and I was very disappointed and nearly distraught. Now I had lengthy conversations with both JD and Brian, explained the problems in detail. JD suggested we drop the twist rate from 1;18 to 1;12. Still being ignorant, I did not see what that had to do with anything? What the hell difference was this going to make? I said ok, we put together quickly a 50 B&M with a 1;12 twist barrel and at the same time I had asked for a few different designs of flat nose solids, but for one to be similar to the NEW barnes banded, as I had seen that work great on buffalo in 2005.

In very short order I had a stainless 1;12 twist 50 B&M and 5 different flat nose designs, but the weight was off by 1/10th inch, all the flat nose bullets were light from 440-465 grs, samples of about 25 each design.

During the test work what I discovered the 1;12 twist did improve the straight line penetration of the 512 round nose to around 90% of it's total penetration, which was around 43 inches total, veering off course at around 38 inches or so as I recall (going on memory, not at my main computer right now), but all of the flat nose solid samples were phenomenal! I was astounded at the amount of penetration, and all were 100% dead straight, penetrations to 55-62 inches with all the samples, which are now the standard solids that I use in .500 today for buffalo and elephant. I did increase the weights, still ignorant of how much importance to put on SD, still even then. I now have all those same solids, one at 455 grs, 485 grs, 510 grs, and 550 grs. The larger bullets very much a copy of the Barnes Banded design at my request, for my personal use.

So 465HH I can't give you what you request above, at the time I did not even consider to measure such a thing, as I was not truly aware that such a thing could even happen! I did not want to believe it to be honest, and even tried to deny it in my mind, until it became so obvious that I could not deny it anymore, it was real. I have never used a Woodleigh FMJ of any caliber in the field. One that I will in the future, and intend to do so, is the 9.3 caliber 320 gr Woodleigh FMJ. I also intend to get some Woodleigh Monos, and will use them in the field too at some point.

But what I will not do ever is pollute my beloved Winchester M70s with any sort of round nose solid or FMJ solid while in the field. I have learned a lot in the last few years, and to do anything else is backing up and going backwards!

So I will never be able to take any measurements or check any round nose solids or fmj's in the field, no official data will ever be available. Knowing what I know today, I wish I had done some measurements and recorded the data, but I just did not know I needed too do this at the time to prove anything, I was satisfied with what I saw with my own eyes and that was good enough for me.

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
Oh yeh, thanks for the reminder. Jack Carter's Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer might have been the "nonmonometal-smooth-shanked" FN "solid"
that pushed Gerard over the edge into perfecting it as the GSC FN everyone else is now copying to one degree or another.

I will tell Brian to forget the barrel band sling base if that is any problem at all.
It was only an afterthought, gilding the lilly, just useless weight!

I much prefer the forward sling base to be on the very tip of the stock forend.

Yep, agree with jwp475 regarding "too much penetration" with a solid: Never! ... as long as it is in a straight line from entrance to exit ...

JackPhantomHuckleBerryHoundDog, RIP

RIP

Make sure you and Brian speak, I thought it was barrel band front sight, I don't want to get confusion going by being in the middle!

I never really had an issue with the sling stud being on the stock, as I hold that hand fairly tight holding the rifle, my hand does not see to slip or anything into it.

Agreed with JWP also, can't have too much straight line penetration, that's sorta like saying to someone "you have too much gun", of course I always tell folks that when they carry a 12 lb 4 foot long rifle that they have too much gun, but that's not what is meant by this comment.

Michael

Doc M,
I am sure glad you have finally seen the light and stopped using Roundnose solids!

Re. Brian and the .458 B&M:
I will send an email, and telephone.
I already told him if he can't find an easy fit on the front sight barrel band,
then just slide one back an inch or two from the muzzle and make it look like a Westley-Richards.

I would not mind if I had an inch and a half of barrel sticking out beyond the barrel band front sight.

That will make it easier to add a muzzle brake later, if I fracture a clavicle.

I could use a peep sight on the receiver to extend the sight radius.
I can do without any barrel hardware except that banded front sight, if I have too.
I have checked the parts in the NECG catalog, and measured the barrel myself.

I am sure it will work.
Just may be a little different.
Brian balked at 10" twist at first too, but he eventually came around.

My barrel profile is a Pac-Nor No.4 Sporter as compared to your usual No.5?

Hey, all my factory CZ .458s ... as well as my SIGARMS-Prechtl-actioned Magnum Mauser 450 Dakota ... THEY ALL USE A Close Equivalent to No.4 Sporter Contour that is about 0.670" at 25" muzzle diameter.

Cut that off to 20" and the muzzle diameter is .710" to .720" : IT AIN'T NO THANG!
It'll work,
Brian is just stalling while he catches up on everything else you been swamping him with.

Just rechecked the Ps and Qs:
My barrel is
.720" diameter at 20" length
.735" diameter at 19" length
.750" diameter at 18" length

and

NECG has a front sight band of ID:
.748" or 19.0mm
and
.728" or 18.5mm
and
.708" or 18.0mm
etc.

NECG has ID band diameters for the front sight (Masterpiece Banded Ramp) from
.551"/14.0mm
to
.788"/20.0mm
in 0.5mm or about 0.020" steps.
and a final 1.0mm increment to .827"/21.0mm as biggest.
JackPhantomHuckleBerryHoundDog, RIP

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Doc M,
I am sure glad you have finally seen the light and stopped using Roundnose solids!

Re. Brian and the .458 B&M:
I will send an email, and telephone.
I already told him if he can't find an easy fit on the front sight barrel band,
then just slide one back an inch or two from the muzzle and make it look like a Westley-Richards.

I would not mind if I had an inch and a half of barrel sticking out beyond the barrel band front sight.

That will make it easier to add a muzzle brake later, if I fracture a clavicle.

I could use a peep sight on the receiver to extend the sight radius.
I can do without any barrel hardware except that banded front sight, if I have too.
I have checked the parts in the NECG catalog, and measured the barrel myself.

I am sure it will work.
Just may be a little different.
Brian balked at 10" twist at first too, but he eventually came around.

My barrel profile is a 4 as compared to your usual 5.

Hey, all my factory CZ .458s ... as well as my SIGARMS-Prechtl-actioned Magnum Mauser 450 Dakota ... THEY ALL USE A No.4 sporter contour that is about 0.670" at 25" muzzle diameter.

Cut that off to 20" and the muzzle diameter is .710": IT AIN'T NO THANG!
It'll work,
Brian is just stalling while he catches up on everything else you been swamping him with.

RIP

I swear, you are going to have to make a plan to come visit! I have a pretty good idea we might get some shooting in between shots of goose, but I am quite sure I would laugh my ass off the entire visit! I have a feeling that you should have been a comedian at some point in your life, and that's meant as a compliment to your sense of humor!

""Doc M,
I am sure glad you have finally seen the light and stopped using Roundnose solids! ""

Yes, I have seen the light, no more shall I stalk the great beasts of the earth in darkness, NO MORE (slightly louder) shall I wonder about the field in ignorance, YES PRAISE BE, I have seen the light and the face of the light, "Is Flat"!



""I would not mind if I had an inch and a half of barrel sticking out beyond the barrel band front sight.
That will make it easier to add a muzzle brake later, if I fracture a clavicle.""

Do be careful, your rifles may be a 1 lb or two lighter, and I hear rumors that these guns without "breaks" (brakes) will do very serious damage to the human body to the point that ones head will spin around, eyes knocked out of the sockets, teeth knocked completely out of the mouth and many other horrible side effects from shooting one of these beasts! I'd hate to be responsible for that!




Hey, barrel band front sight, further back from the muzzle, interesting, I had not thought of that.

Well, touch base with Brian and make sure he understands. Don't want confusion going on, and want you to get what you want.

Yeah, Brian and JD might put up a bit of a fuss about something, but I promise every bit of it is meant for your benefit, and you know exactly how some folks are about things, so they don't ever want you to get any surprises or disappointments.

Back to shooting this week, I am going to get something going tomorrow, even if it is just "block Busting" in that piece of left over box I have, then make a new box for Tuesday morning and afternoon sessions.

Gees, I only have two 500 MDMs up there, a DPMS 458 BM SA, a 50 BM AK M71, and that is it. Getting low up there with only 4 rifles in the works. I must get something put together and get started, oh, I forgot about building a 458 Lott, so that is still only 5 rifles up there. Have to get going!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Doc RIP

Excellent data and info on the Barnes Buster. Actually this is an excellent bullet in which to test twist rates and terminal stability!!!! Excellent because it has a "marginal Meplat for caliber" percentage, at 55-57% of caliber. From tests with the 458 B&M-1:14 and the 45/70 1:20, there sure is a difference, in the .500s from 1:18 to 1:12 there is a difference, both cases, the faster twist winning the race. I very much strongly favor the 1:10 twist making a big show in your tests, even 1:12 will be a difference. With the "marginal meplat size" for terminal stability it is not capable of self terminal stabilization on it's own, faster twist rates required for optimum performance.

Now, interesting you note how does it hold up during terminals? I think put it up against the "concrete block T'Rex" and let's see? I will make a plan for that (if I don't forget).

Michael

Michael,

Pardon me if this question is redundant, but I relatively new to this thread. So rather than read through a few thousand post, thought I would just ask.

These twist rates for single barrel rifles, correct?

I received a reply from the supplier of my double "The rate of twist in all CIP made 470s is one turn in 533mm (1:20.9843). This applies to any rifle made in a CIP country (Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Austria, etc...)"

How does the slow twist rate of doubles translate into stability and strait line penetration in double rifles?

Thanks!

Jack,

According to Krieghoff my 470 is a 1 in 18.9 twist.

The large meplat of the North Fork will allow the bullet to stabilize and travel straight in all my test even in the slow twist of our rifles. The Hornady DGS are really trying to remain straight but the meplat is just a little too small to do so in my rifle. They are good, just not as good as the North Fork.

Jack

No problem at all, and you question is extremely valid and important.

Yes, the twist rates are correct and therein lies a problem we suffer for terminal penetration of most solid designs.

If the meplat of a flat nose solid is not at optimum, or is marginal in size for caliber then a slow twist rate, 1:18 or 1:20 cannot stabilize "reliably" for straight line penetration. I consider getting below 60% meplat for caliber as being marginal, less than 55% meplat for caliber is really borderline. With these borderline meplat size bullets it has been proven we can increase stability and straight line penetration with a faster twist rate.

Now what is a saving grace for the doubles and what has been proven by Mike right here, is that a better than optimum meplat for size, enter the North Fork 500 gr 474 caliber bullet with a meplat of around 70% for caliber, which will and does OVERCOME the poor twist rates that are available in those rifles! I am not a double man, so I am very ignorant on the subject and make no claims about anything considering a double rifle, but as I understand the North Fork bullet is also a double rifle safe bullet. If I was shooting a double rifle in 470 and it had 1;18 to 1;20, I would be shooting North Forks! I am very sure there are other bullets that will do, I think that Agent J, with SH Precision has double safe bullets, but I would check with him on that, GS Custom bullets, I am not sure, check with Gerard. What I am sure of, is that these bullets with 65% to 70% meplat for caliber will stabilize themselves despite the slow twist rate, proven by Mikes test work over and over.

So twist rate is EXTREMELY important, far more so than I suspected only a couple of years ago! And something relearned right here on this thread! Seems I am doing a lot of "relearning" lately? Hmmmmm?

Factors that I consider most important, and in order of importance as I see it, for terminal penetration of solids;

Nose Profile--Meplat size, % of meplat for caliber--Twist Rate--Velocity--Construction--SD

Might say the "Big Six Factors"

If I left anything out guys speak up.

No thanks needed!

Michael

Mike

THank you for saying in 3 sentences what took me a book to say the same thing!


Michael

I actually typed that Michael458 will have a more technical response, but I deleted it.

Of the big six I am not sure if Velocity should be that high. Yes I said it. Higher velocity will penetrate better especially when the first two of the big six are right. I would take 1800FPS Impact velocity with a well constructed heavy bullet over 2100 FPS poorly constructed lighter bullet.

The big 6: meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat, and the other 5 in some order.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
I actually typed that Michael458 will have a more technical response, but I deleted it.

Of the big six I am not sure if Velocity should be that high. Yes I said it. Higher velocity will penetrate better especially when the first two of the big six are right. I would take 1800FPS Impact velocity with a well constructed heavy bullet over 2100 FPS poorly constructed lighter bullet.

The big 6: meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat, and the other 5 in some order.

Mike

As you know I can be long winded!

As for the rest of your post above---You will hear no arguments from me! I not sure exactly myself where velocity should be placed, no higher certainly, I suppose we are still working that area about. When RIP gets to testing he has some rifles/cartridges that can produce high velocities, so we will get it down a little closer then.

As for the new big 6--Proper Nose profile, combined with meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat, meplat meplat.

YES

Michael

quote:

Ask the most experienced and most accurate PH or client for that matter and find one that has never placed an inaccurate bullet into a charging ele. That would be one rare duck.

H, I definately agree with you...the "heat of the moment" can do some interesting things to the individual.

Over on the Double rifle forum there was a spirited discussion as to the veracity of some of my testing/documentation/photos. I shot this little video to prove the predictable consistency of the North Fork Bullets. If I could shoot straight it would have been perfect. Enjoy.

Mike

Great! Yes, consistent, every single time, time after time after time. So consistent it is getting boring! Not said with malice, just fact! What you have been doing so extensively with the 470s has been a tremendous boost to not only this thread, but test work in general, and brought out many positive results, especially for double rifle owners and shooters! Job well done. The longer this goes, the more we learn. I tell you now, I have learned even more in just the last 6 months, and I thought I knew a little something before I started this, but I was wrong, I knew only the tip of the iceberg. I knew the basics is all! Thanks for your efforts and hard work.

This week I am back on it too!

Michael

Michael,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my question as best that you can. Can't ask for more than that.

465H&H

Jack D Bold,

Forgive me for being so anal about minutia but could you provide a little more detail on your problem with bullet veering on the bull elephant? How far away was the bull? What was the bulls head position i.e. down low feeding, head up alert, looking down his nose at you or possibly looking at someone to your side? Where was the bullet found in relation to the back of the ear, upper, middle or lower part of the ear? What was the reaction of the bull to your initial hit? Thanks for your time!

I ahve edited this post to address it to the correct poster. Sorry to both of you for my mistake.
465H&H

Some of us who frequent here have had to venture off to the double rifle area and posted pertinent information there that deserves to be here. Since we focused so much effort there, I'm not sure it would be worth re-posting it all here, so I'll just link you the page where it's all at:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...804/m/7281027721/p/2

Michael:
Did you ever get velocities using the 570 grain Sharkfin in the 50 Alaskan?

Hi MikeD

Before I left a couple of weeks ago I was working up the velocities in my Ruger #1 in 50 AK. My problem is about the time I was playing with the 50 AK I received one of the first 50 B&M AKs---down to .500. This left my load data for 50 AK incomplete, and somewhat lacking. Not having really enough of Agent J's Sharkfins to work mere data, I started with some other bullets, Woodleighs and what have you, to get the velocity up for testing. I have not finished that yet, and running somewhat behind. I am glad you brought it up however, I can get back on working that velocity up this morning, and possibly test 50 AK with J's bullets today!

I have another to test for Dean too, the 458 cal 350 Speer! Bet you think I forgot? I did, but I found my note I had made on that yesterday on the lab bench! HEH.

I will for sure be working on both these today, and posting results soonest.

Thanks for the reminder! I need a reminder once and awhile!

Michael

Thanks Michael. You should write a book on bullet performance, you have the combination of lab data and real life performance to make it really valuable.

You could post your name amungst the greats! Make a retirement career out of it! Might even need to buy a double!

This is the best so-called test in the history of AR!!

Well boys I am back! Couple of things, I was Run Off the Double Rifle Forum this morning for posting anything about bullets in double rifles because I have no experience! I told you guys about those guys, seems I was correct, almost! This is going to be a hoot!

Just this morning I had ZERO EXPERIENCE with double rifles, as I look back in my shooting career I can't ever even recall shooting one period! So I did not know all the rules to be able to post on the Double Rifle forum, even if it's about bullet performance, it does not matter, some would think I have no business posting there regardless if I have no experience with doubles. I never claimed any, and anything even about double safe bullets I have to ask someone else, and in fact just yesterday I asked Agent J about his bullets and if he felt like they were double safe. You see, I actually believed that because of the extremely good work Mike has done with the 470 and his double, that we might actually be able to help some of the double guys with better more reliable bullets! Then I get slapped across the mouth for it! I could give a f$%k about their doubles, I just thought we might be able to help someone, but they don't need any help it appears! Not all of course, just the loud ones I suppose!

Well, this morning I had ZERO EXPERIENCE with a double rifle!!!!!!

This evening I now am an EXPERIENCED DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTER in 577 Nitro, 500 Nitro, and 470 Nitro!!!!!!!!

ALL IN ONE DAMN DAY. Roughly 4-5 hours after posted I had never even shot one!

Now I ask you this, Is that kick ass or what??? WHO DELIVERS WHEN ASKED TO?????????

Who Da Man?

Oh my god, this is so funny, I can't help but LMAO at this turn of events in one day!

OK OK OK, I will tell you "Who Da Man" is! Our very own Sam---SRose!

I had forgot Sam was bringing some of his doubles down today to play. I had not forgot about Sam coming, I had just not thought about him bringing some of his doubles with him! What a hoot we had!

We did some very good test work today, in 577, 500 Nitro, and 470 Nitro and I had a blast so to speak, and had lots of fun and really really enjoyed shooting the guns! I tell you, these guns don't have any recoil either, they are too big to have any! NICE NICE NICE Guns! Dont' ask me what they were, I know shit about doubles, but they were nice! I know they were not Winchesters and that's about all I can tell you. I am sure Sam will tell you if you need to know!

So funny I have gone from zero experience to a few hours later now with experience testing 577-500 and 470 all within just a few hours! I promise, I did not plan that either, wish I had!

So question? Does this mean I can go post something on the "Double Rifle" forum, and not get run off, now that I have experience?



Sam and I had our own hoot and shoot today right here! We got some excellent test work done, we got some surprises, and we learned a little something about a cup point bullet Sam made for the 577s. Just before Sam arrived about 10 am or so, I was on the range and did some tests before. One of which concerns Dean, as promised FINALLY eh, dean! The 458 caliber Speer 350 gr bullet--I was VERY SURPRISED with the results myself! Agent J, your wonderful .510 535 gr Solid in the 50 Alaskan, I have velocity with a woodleigh at 1850 fps right now, I don't know exactly if yours will do the same or more, but is that a good test velocity for the 50 AK and what you are looking for???? If so, 50 AK is ready for tests, if not, let me know I can probably go up!

I did not have time to do photos and get anything specific posted today, but I will work on that in the morning.

Hold, I am baby sitting tonight, have to go check baby

OK went to check the baby, she is fine, just having a beer with the boys is all! HEH.

Ok where was I? Oh, will work on getting data, photos, results and all that posted tomorrow. Lot's of work involved in just doing that, but regardless of what "ONE" individual thinks, it is not a waste, it is real and it is worth every bit of the effort put forth!

Dean

A book? I appreciate that, thank you. You are not the only one to suggest such, I have actually been approached, but I am not so sure. Some time ago, year or so, I had agreed to consider, maybe actually do it, but I sorta backed out for one reason. Doing a book, I would hate to give the impression of being some sort of "Self Proclaimed Expert" or just being a "End all Pompous Ass" or even thought of or considered that. I think, at least in my mind, that I would rather not because of that. I would rather just be a student of terminal performance, as I don't know it all any way, and I learn something new nearly every single test! Just today a new revelation came to me concerning one of Sam's bullets in his 577, will report it tomorrow, but I feel like I am continuously learning something new, and this goes double especially in the last 5 yrs, far more than the previous 10 doing test work. And then I think of just the last year I have learned so much, about various solids, various NonCons, twist rates, meplat sizes, and I can go on and on about all the new things we are working on right here, with all you guys!
I do appreciate the confidence you place however, very much so, thank you. I have a post for you tomorrow too!!!!!!!!

Thank you too Extreme, but I learned something else today too! I don't need a double rifle, Sam has more than he can carry or shoot at one time anyway, if I get a hankering, I just call Sam! Calling Sam is a lot cheaper too! HEH!

Whitworth, I think it's a damn worthy SO CALLED thread too! I had no earthly idea that it would be as popular as it seems it is. Hell, I figured I would have been tarred and feathered long before now for my blasphemy, and ran completely off of AR to live a life of shame and disgrace to the end of my days! But it seems not.

Tell you what else I learned too, I have found a damn fine bunch of fellows of like mind and of like interests, same as my own. Made some really good friends here I think, and that is appreciated more than all the other!

Oh Goodness, I am in a particularly good mood, had a great shooting day with Sam, and learned a good bit while we were at it!

Now, off to other things, baby sitting before she drinks all the beer! LOL

Michael

You DA Man

The ivory towers of DR nostalgia are not in fear of logic, reason and science

You should put in your sig line "Single wide bolt trash who flirts with double wide upper lower class upon occasion"

Michael,

You bet we had a hoot and shoot and If you are as tired as I am the baby can do anything it wants to because you'll be asleep. OK guys Michael is the mad scientist with bolt guns and said they were all he really liked. I may have somewhat converted him today to real guns. Yes Michael is now very experienced with double rifles. And Oh how I would have laughed if he would have doubled on the first shot as most people not familar with side X side doubles do. I'm not sure Michael has even shot a SXS shotgun before. Well he handled them like a man and had no problems shooting them. His smile kept getting bigger as the day went on. If I had my buddy 450NE double with 20 inch barrels I know Michael would convert. I told his wife what to get him for Christmas this year. I've had some fun today and learned alot. The most fun was watching Michael turn his head around to see those empties flying through the air over his shoulder. He loved that more than shooting the guns I think. Man all my brass is bent up from hitting the concrete floor. I'd give him lessons on how to catch the brass but after getting cussed out by a friend during a buffalo shoot for picking up brass I don't want to start any bad habits. Poor Michael felt so bad for banging up my brass he gave me some new 470 brass. He just loved watching those hulls fly.
I can't wait to see all the information Michael got today and I surely won't try to tell you what all we did.
By the way the doubles I had for Michael to play with wee a Chapuis 470NE that I have hunted with a lot, The 500NE and 577NE were both Demas doubles that I got from Ken at Kebco. These guns are the same as Verney Carrone and are really good guns for the money.

Thanks Michael for a great day of fun.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:

You should put in your sig line "Single wide bolt trash who flirts with double wide upper lower class upon occasion"

That is good, but I just learned how to do the little photo thing up in the corner, a sig Line? I have not progressed that far yet!

LOL

Thanks JWP--it was hilarious I told Sam about it today too. Had to take photos of all three rifles too boot!

Nahhh, I ain't the man--Sam da Man!

Michael

I loved that! So funny.

Sam

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well boys I am back! Couple of things, I was Run Off the Double Rifle Forum this morning for posting anything about bullets in double rifles because I have no experience! I told you guys about those guys, seems I was correct, almost! This is going to be a hoot!

Mike,

Not all DR shooters are a slave to nostalgia. After all, if we did not adapt to new technology, we would still be chasing bulls with sharp sticks.

I am most appreciative of your hard work (or is it fun?) in collecting empirical data. It so blows away the "back in my day" anecdotes, it's not fair.

I for one will never shoot another animal with Woodies. And those who are still not convinced, well it's like trying to teach a pig to sing - wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Keep up the good work, and thank you!

Michael458,
What really impresses me about you is your continuous drive to learn. Not matter what is thrown at you (and double rifles are a heavy subject to get thrown your way) you take it on and learn from it. This is why we all appreciate your work so much, and why we admire your charactor, and why you should write a book. Most of us have trouble learning, especially when factoring in reason and wisdom. It takes a certain type of person to do what you are doing, and it's hard not to settle in where we find comfort first. So thank you, and you must write all this down...bla bla bla OK, so where's the good stuff? Let's see some pictures already!

quote:

Originally posted by Jack D Bold:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Well boys I am back! Couple of things, I was Run Off the Double Rifle Forum this morning for posting anything about bullets in double rifles because I have no experience! I told you guys about those guys, seems I was correct, almost! This is going to be a hoot!

Mike,

Not all DR shooters are a slave to nostalgia. After all, if we did not adapt to new technology, we would still be chasing bulls with sharp sticks.

I am most appreciative of your hard work (or is it fun?) in collecting empirical data. It so blows away the "back in my day" anecdotes, it's not fair.

I for one will never shoot another animal with Woodies. And those who are still not convinced, well it's like trying to teach a pig to sing - wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Keep up the good work, and thank you!

Jack

Oh I know that all DR shooters are not so pompous, after all here you are and Sam, and Mike too, and I am quite sure there are some more lurking around! All good fellows and proud to be associated with all of you! There are those however, as there are in any camp, as we all know! So I poke a little fun with it from time to time. So ya'll just roll with me!

In fact I am still laughing at Mike, I think you missed this, it's been a week or two. I was poking a little fun at Mike, I figured sure he had his double across his shoulder, holding it by the barrels of course (classic African Carry Mode) and had his short shorts on while hunting with his double! Sure enough, in a few minutes being the great sport Mike is, posted a photo of him in his short shorts, double across the shoulder, holding it by the barrels, but I missed the "Cool Shades" he had on by a mile, didn't figure on that! Like I said, I am still laughing at that one!

Ask Mike and RIP how much work it is, you know too, but it's worth it in the long run. I do enjoy it and it is fun, and it's especially fun when doing it with someone like Sam and some of the other guys that come around on occasion. I believe strongly in what we are doing here. I know it is viable and real. I have been to the field and I have compared bullets in animal tissue and test medium and I know for a fact the test work is and can be a great help in choosing the right bullets to accomplish a mission that one might embark upon. I do it all the time, have been doing it for many years, not for anything else but my own personal knowledge and to allow me to be MORE successful in the field and avoid POTENTIAL issues in the field. To allow me to go with what I believe to be the best bullet for a given job. So far, I have either been incredibly lucky, or I have been mostly correct in my assessments because of the test work done before hand, or a combination of both! I don't wish to do my test work in the field only and first, one tests before going on the mission, one practices before going on the mission, not on the mission!

You are most welcome and we are happy to have you with us and I appreciate your input!

Michael

Extreme

Well "SON" I swear if you keep hanging around with me and the rest of this bunch on this thread, I might make something of you yet! You certainly are showing fine potential for sure! You just keep hanging with the right crowd!

Hell, we have enough for a book or two on this thread alone! HEH.

As for the double rifle deal, I am still pretty ignorant on it. But being a terminal student, I really and truly felt like some of the things we were working on should have been very important to those with the doubles, giving them options for perhaps a better bullet in which to enhance the potential of a successful hunt. As for the bullets doing damage to the barrels, I certainly have zero expertise in that arena, and all I can go on is what either the bullet manufacturers would say, or the rifle makers themselves, or many of the guys like Mike, Sam, and Jack! If North Fork or GS Custom-Gerard, SH Precision, or Mike, Sam, or Jack say that a certain bullet is double safe then I have no reason to think otherwise, and if they are using them regular in doubles then I would go along with that, but it's not my call and leave it up to the individual. I will show today some nice bullets Sam made himself out of brass and considers them safer in his guns than the Woodleighs because of bearing surface! He is shooting them in his gun, so he is far more the expert on that than I am, and is putting his money where his mouth is! So absolutely, I am learning lot's and I appreciate!

I can tell you this, I like those double rifles that eject the hell out of the empty cases! They come out of there so fast I am not so sure one could not shoot a buffalo in front of oneself twice, then eject those big empties and kill one behind oneself with the empties alone! Poor Sam, I shot most of his ammo up just so I could turn quick and watch the empties fly out! I tell you now, one of those will poke your damn eyes out! Now who would have figured that?

Well, let me get back to work and as the day progresses I will get some photos up and some data posted!

Cheers
Michael

An interesting test would be to see how non deforming solid spheres will do in terms of penetration and straight line penetration. Old school big bores used lead balls so this does have a nostalgia aspect to it. I don't know if twist will have any affect on path or penetration. Was thinking of groove diameter balls with even a canalure to crimp on. 458Extremist says he could help get us these. I think we should start with .500" since we have the most data on that here. It would be interesting to see what a tungsten ball could do compared to a conventional bullet of the same weight. spheres also in .458" and .729" would be of interest. The .729" one would make the 12 gauge into a mini cannon! Might prove popular with shotgun people.

quote:

tungsten ball

Gonna be tough to get similar velocity with nearly double the weight of lead eh ...?? Lots of patches so as not to remove the rifling on the first shot!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

tungsten ball

Gonna be tough to get similar velocity with nearly double the weight of lead eh ...?? Lots of patches so as not to remove the rifling on the first shot!

Was thinking a copper covered tungsten spheres and smooth bore for shotgun or copper coated as well.

Easier/cheaper to patch up some 52100 hardened ball bearings. Can get em off the rack in any size and they're cheap. Non-toxic, non-deforming, non-fouling ....

Was looking for an off the shelf bronze .5" bearing for testing but no luck yet. Was thinking bronze would not hurt the barrel.
Paper patching a steel ball would be interesting but I don't know much about it.
A .458 copper sphere at high velocity would be interesting in a 45-70. I am guessing about 180 grains @ 2700 FPS.

BB's from hell!

Would be good to calculate the weight and usable case capacity for some quickload computations with half the ball in the case.

Paper Patch 3 180 grain .451 wadcutters together in a 458 Lott.
That's your close range Rabbit load.

John

Dean

I finally got the 350 Speers done for you! I have to tell you I was very impressed with the performance of these. This performance is far beyond the cost!

These are the rifles that Sam brought down and we used to do the following test work. I have my favorite picked out!



Thanks Sam