A subsonic knitting needle...
Good for poking things at 600 yards

quote:

That is enough for plinking, rabbits, squirrels, crows, home defense ect

I would agree.

It's one of my theories that a lot of KE with a short penetration depth translates to a big wound cavity. Or at least something is going to get stopped or torn all to hell! I just haven't had occasion to test that theory.

Anyway, I would want the lower velocity for the above uses. The higher velocity I would reserve for funsies.

Thanks, Gerard. I'm glad you recognized what I was referring to about spin and penetration. Sure wish we could send you some nice cornbread.

Michael.
I have been away some time.. but debate continues here I see..
What about the 320 grs 9,3 Woody FMJ - did you test them again with the new "dobblebox"?

Ulrik

Hey Pal, yes, it appears this thread really will never have an end! There are so many bullets, and so little time! The 9.3 Woodleigh FMJ has not left the building yet, but is on schedule. I feel like there are some priorities, and I try to place the priorities on some of the things other people send to be tested. I have to go out to the field this afternoon to look at a track of land, or I would be testing today. Tomorrow I want to test Sharps loads at 48 yds. By the time that is done I will need to build two more new boxes of medium. I have not put a lot of priority on the 9.3 of late, as I am not hunting it anytime soon. I also want to retest the 286 Barnes, but I think I already know the results there, small size meplat on that one.

I will not forget it!

RIP

No I don't think those will need testing, but if we get our hands on some of the big VLD HPs with the slits cut in the petals specifically to shear at ultra low velocities............?????

Hi Michael.
Can I send you some 400 grs Barnes Banded FN solids for the .416" to test??
And maybe some GS 330 grs HV bullets as well..?

Ulrik

Ulrik

Don't send 400 Barnes Banded. They just come in to Midway yesterday on backorder, I should have them this week. I will be testing next week I think with them in Rigby and 416 B&M. Also will be putting a few 416s to the T'Rex test for giggles!

The GS 330s yes, please do send some samples. I would love to test those. 416 correct? Can compare with out 330 brass Noncons I think! That would be great.

Michael

There is NO WAY that I would shoot an aluminum bullet in any firearm I own. Have you ever heard of aluminum oxide? It is a premium abrasive and it is used in the metal finishing industry as the abrasive on sanding discs and belts. I buy several hundred aluminum oxide sanding belts every year, so I'm not guessing.

Just a thought--

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
There is NO WAY that I would shoot an aluminum bullet in any firearm I own. Have you ever heard of aluminum oxide? It is a premium abrasive and it is used in the metal finishing industry as the abrasive on sanding discs and belts. I buy several hundred aluminum oxide sanding belts every year, so I'm not guessing.

Just a thought--

Good thought.
Something worth thinking about.
I do not like the idea of a steady diet of allyoominium bullets either.
Maybe one shot every now and then to clean the barrel.

Gerard said that aluminum bullets foul little.
Probably because they remove any traces of other fouling with their aluminum oxide surfaces obturating and scraping along the barrel. Better than JB Paste!
Shootaway can save some elbow grease if he can get some allyoominium bullets in .458 caliber.

Every piece of aluminum remains shiny because it forms a thin molecular layer of aluminum oxide on its surface, that you can see through, basically arresting further oxidation deeper in the metal, stopping corrosion.

HARPoon Technology:
Michael,
I have seen pics somewhere of those long Whisper bullets hollowpointed and with slits in the nose that cut completely through the ogive all the way down to the bullet shank.
Those would definitely open at 1000 fps.
Might open in flight and work like a mini-grappling hook ... have to figure a way to attach a fishing line to the base of the bullet though ...
As you were.
Whenever the interminable terminal-testing resumes.
Doin' good ain't got no end.
The double negative makes a positive, an affirmative.
Doin' good has an end.
It is an end in itself.

(THIS HAS BEEN A) Letter Rip, from Berry's Lick

Hey Sharps, thanks for the heads up! I don't always remember everything, but Brian mentioned yesterday they are coated in something to keep them from being abrasive????? I don't know. I know for sure he mentioned that David made some in zinc, and they were supposed to clean a barrel out too????? Don't know about that either? At any rate I won't be shooting many, just to test.

RIP

Shootaways rifles would be totally shot completely bare of rifling in one shot of those! Instant smoothbore shot rifle!

Michael

Michael,
If you really want to test those .458 B&M Whaler loads, I am willing to wait until a whale carcass washes up at Myrtle Beach.
I could be there in 24 hours for the testing, once the rifle is ready and the ammo is loaded.
I doubt you will be able to get a 10"-twister built any sooner than I am, so don't even try!

SSK did not have the barrel in stock, Pac-Nor is making one.
I did not look at Shilen, SSK preferred barrel maker. Brian does approve of Pac-Nor and Shilen.
I will not repeat what he thought of another of my favorite barrel makers.

Letter Rip

My theory goes like this (Alf can ad the scientific names and Warrior can pretend to understand and argue.):

You need enough static stability (SF) to keep the bullet axis aligned when stagnation pressure develops on impact. The higher the impact speed, the more SF is needed. The bullet will collect a wobble as it transitions from flight to tissue. The bigger the wobble, the more difficult it is to dampen the wobble and the quicker the bullet will tumble.

Once the bullet is submerged in the target, wobbledampening is required.

Wobbledampeners are:

Shoulder stabilisation.
Dart stabilisation.
Absence of flow pressure on the shaft.

Having all three is first prize.

If dart stabilisation cannot be achieved, you had better have the other two.
If dart stabilisation and shoulder stabilisation are absent, you are on thin ice.
If neither dart nor shoulder stabilisation are at work and you started with too little SF, the bullet will do a Warrior on you. (Duck and dive, change direction or just lose coherency)

More Info 1
More Info 2

In this thread take note of the opinions of Mark Young, JPK, Saeed, michael458. The common characteristic that all of them require is linear penetration. It does not matter what the solid looks like, as long as it goes straight. Note the comments about lucky shots and the fact that 400 Nitro Express' opinion reveals superficial knowledge and little understanding of the requirements that are placed on solid bullet performance. Being able to reload the recovered bullet is not a requirement.

Pontificus E

quote:

Rasputin, am I detecting a suppressed intolerance here that is surfacing now?

This is the seventh or eighth time I posted that. You only see it now? Non comprhension/reading problem/blind? What?

Boomy,
I only made ally bullets in 30 caliber. It was a stalled project - the interested party had no idea what the cost of tungsten carbide rod would be. I thought they did. The bullets were supposed to be carriers for tc centers.

. ,

Given that Alf has done a . on us again, I will supply the answers I asked for in red above.

Yaw of Repose and Yaw are two different things.

Yaw is greatest close to the muzzle and dampens out as distance is covered. There are two yaw cycles, fast precession and slow precession. Yaw is an oscillating motion and can be as great as 6 degrees close to the muzzle.

Yaw of repose results in angle of attack and is a static condition relative to the flight path. The difference in angle of attack of a typical 168gr 30 cal bullet, fired from a 1:10" twist or a 1:14" twist, is .01 degrees at 1000 yards.

All the charts . quoted from p197 McCoy, read to 1000yds.

On page 198 McCoy says that at flat fire range, the angle of attack is insignificant and buried in the yaw that results from the twist that is chosen.

All of this is in the context of extreme range application of spitser/vld bullets.

Jay,
Yes, the bullets were drilled to accept tungsten rods. I loaded them in a 30-06 and got just shy of 4000fps from them without the cores. They were useless at anything over 200m. Even a 6x45 did better at 200 than these. The fouling was zero though and that was amazing.

Pontificus E

quote:

In evaluating the 6.8 SPC for the military,

Why would you take up where Alf . left off? What point are you trying to make with an example of 500 plus yard shooting when we are discussing DG bullets? You remain, as always, an out of context village idiot.

sharpsguy

quote:

There is NO WAY that I would shoot an aluminum bullet in any firearm I own. Have you ever heard of aluminum oxide?

We have turned bullets from a T6 alloy. There is only one way to convert the surface of the bullet to aluminium oxide and that is a specific series of chemical treatments. One of two acids are involved, depending on the type of oxide that is required (decorative or abrasive). Using plain turned aluminium bullets carry no risk. It is just aluminium that is in contact with the bore. How do I know? I used to refinish firearms and I ran an in house chemical blackening as well as an electroless nickel plating setup. I farmed out the stripping of existing anodised pistol frames and, after modification or refinishing, had them anodised again in the color of the owners choice. Example below. Anyone who has bullets anodised to create an aluminium oxide surface needs his head read. It is easy to check. An anodised ally surface is electrically non conductive.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
All y'all,
Allyoominium bullets make spectacular fireworks when
shot at rocks, according to Robgunbuilder.
They are so light they have poor BC, since SD drives BC too.
CQ gangsta buster at hypervelocity? Maybe.
Barrel of monkeys for plinking.

Jay might have the perfect bullet for .458 B&M Whaler loads.
777 grains and 3.25" long. !!!

McCoy-Davis Pointed Bullet Optimum Rifling Twist Ballistics,
a calculator from the Defunct Accu-Load program,
predicts that a 10" twist is optimum for accuracy right around
1100 fps, +/- 100 fps, for a 3.25"-long .458 bullet,
with a 2"-long nose of 10-caliber ogive.
Hypothetically speaking, heh-heh.

That leaves 1.25" of bullet to seat in the case.
That leaves less than an inch of .458 B&M case
in which to stick 41 grains of powder ...

From Quick Load:
777-grain .458-caliber 3.25"-long bullet, 20" barrel

41 grains H4831SC: 1074 fps/ 23,843 psi
41 grains Benchmark: 1404 fps/ 56,304 psi/ 99.9% propellant burnt/ 44.5% ballistic efficiency !!!!!

Recoil from 777-grain bullet in 6.5# rifle?
1074 fps or 1404 fps?
Decisions, decisions ...

What does Quickie Load say about that bullet over 700 grains of 20N29 down a 45" barrel ...??

Gerard--I'm not saying that you are incorrect about the formation of aluminum oxide. In fact, I will accept that you are correct. Having said that, we both agree that aluminum oxide is a very efficient abrasive.

I use aluminum oxide abrasive belts in my work, primarily in grinding steel. In grinding parts from ALUMINUM PLATE, not anodized, I found that aluminum plate wore out the aluminum oxide belt about ten times faster than steel.

Having seen and experienced that, I can tell you that I don't want an aluminum projectile anywhere near my rifle bore.

You have to increase the belt speed and reduce the cutting pressure. If you are wearing belts out faster on ally than on steel, the cutting conditions are wrong. I manufacture parts for orthopaedic fittings from a variety of materials and ally needs different speeds and feeds compared to steel.

RIP

No No, I am waiting on your rifle to be finished. Brian and I talked some about barrels yesterday. All the .500s are PacNor, Shilen on most of the others I think. I trust Brians judgement 100% on these matters, never been let down! He sees a lot of barrels a year!


As for the whale, I am watching, will keep an eye out for one! Minute I get one on the beach I will call you, but be quick, lot's of "yankee" tourists here you know!

Michael

Are you saying that 3000fps plus or minus is a user friendly velocity to run an aluminum bullet down a steel barrel?

I'm not looking for an argument or pissing contest. I'm just a country boy who has forged and made knives for 40 plus years who has worked with a bit of aluminum and doesn't like the idea of that metal going down one of my rifle barrels.

Sharps

I think that's the point--3000 fps +. Bad on barrels or not, I don't know myself, I never even heard of one before Boomy. Or if I did I really didn't pay much attention. What they are good for, I don't know. I am interested to test them and find out. It is my belief that they are so light for caliber that penetration will be very short in comparison to the same design bullet in brass or copper. I think one of the things we are looking for is the "explosive" effect the velocity will have for the first 6 inches or so, IF it makes it 6 inches??? In the end, I don't think it is a bullet that we can hunt with, that's my opinion--BEFORE the test! Test may show us something different?????? Who knows??? I don't??? When I get them, I have to see! I don't think Brian or JD would let me do anything that would hurt one of the barrels. And I am sure they would not do so either.

Michael

All y'all,
Any junior highschool scientist knows a skin of aluminum oxide forms on pure aluminum as soon as it is exposed to air.
That skin is stable, molecular thin, and protects the pure aluminum beneath from further oxidation.

Gerard's T6 alloy: Is that an aluminum-titanium alloy like aircraft aluminum?

Macifej,
Is your bullet designed for 3000 to 4000 fps anti-materiel/sniping uses?
You should a 13" twist for 3000 fps and a 14" twist for 4000 fps.
Better go with a 1:13" twist for best versatility with your .458/777gr brass LRV.
See, I can play this slow twist game too.
But I still need a 10" twist for whaling with your bullet in the .458 BMW.
That twist will make 450-grain FNs penetrate even better at close range.

Michael,
Your pictures of the .510 Whisper bullets are corrupting me further.
SSK's .510 Whisper is the cartridge made from cutting off .338 Lapua brass, sort of a 500 Mbogo Mini-Me.
Planned .510 Whisper: CZ 550 Magnum with 4 down in the box,
NECG express sights with pop-up H&H moon bead, barrel band sling base, one fixed and 3 folding rear express leaves.
Pac-Nor stainless 1:9" twist No.6 (heavy)sporter, 23" long.
B&C Kevlar stock from CZ, bigger brother of the stock on the SC-made M70 Winchester Extreme Weather SS stock, which is also made by B&C.

A .458 B&M Whaler and a .510 Whisper.
Short and light, long and fat.
Mutt and Jeff.
Opens up a new can of "fun," for a "shooter."

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
Ulrik

Don't send 400 Barnes Banded. They just come in to Midway yesterday on backorder, I should have them this week. I will be testing next week I think with them in Rigby and 416 B&M. Also will be putting a few 416s to the T'Rex test for giggles!

The GS 330s yes, please do send some samples. I would love to test those. 416 correct? Can compare with out 330 brass Noncons I think! That would be great.

Michael

Will do that..
Please test the 400 Banded solids at low (2100 f/s), medium (around 2300 f/s) and high (2600 f/s)..
Looking forward to see results..

All the best
Ulrik

Gerard Schultz’s derivation of Stability Factor (SF) values for straight-line penetration with FN Solids.

"With FN bullets we recommend a stability factor in EXCESS of 2.5 for reliable linear penetration. The 300gr FN has a stability factor of 2.39 to 2.44 from 2000fps to 3000fps. Again not ideal." The importance assigned to this miniscule difference between 2.44 and 2.50 is truly astonishing. When shown that the 9,3 mm FN bullet penetrated straight at a SF value of only 2.04 shot in a 9,3x62mm, Gerard then quickly back-paddled by saying the SF of 2.5 only applies to the .375 “ bullet, and not to the .366” bullet due to increased velocity in the .375 H&H and stagnation pressure. By implication we would have difficulty then if we were to shoot the very same 9,3 bullet at 9,3 x64 mm velocities (similar to the .375 H&H) to guarantee, as Gerard hints, to achieve “reliable linear penetration". Huh? Incidently, increased velocity does not contribute much to increased SF values, as it is the twist rate that must be increased to affect a practical increase in SF values, so we need to rebarrel. When I asked Gerrad about this view or perception that he holds, he remarked .... "Not a perception or a view - a specification we have set ". So this creates the impression that it is really something far more serious and definitive.

Now we also know that Solids are very seldom retrieved, as they were actually designed for maximum penetration in large dangerous game such as buffalo and elephant. Since we also know that FN Solids penetrate as straight as can be, it is rare that they tumble or that we still find them in smaller soft skin game up to the size of kudu, etc. Since Gerard is not a buffalo hunter, I take it that his so-called tests were done mostly on soft-skinned game in the Eastern Cape, from which observations were made about differential penetration depths based on different SF values, and the subsequent formulation of SF requirements for straight-line penetration. But before we move on, let us just ponder on 2 statement made today by Will and Ganyana in the thread ... "9.3X62 Solids for Buff?" on the use of Solids:

a) By Will .... "You don't want to use solids on buff. They will zing right through on broadside shots and wound any others in the background. It just pisses me off when I see PH's tell their clients to use solids. It is just a dumb shit thing to do."

b) By Ganyana ...."If you are only planning on shooting your buffalo 'up the rear' then you may well need a solid. The regular woodleigh Solids in my 9,3 (286grn at a MV of about 2380fps) will reach the heart on a 'texas heart shot'. "

It then follows logically that FN Solids on soft game with straight pass-throughs cannot be assessed in this study, not so? The million dollar question then becomes how many of these FN bullets actually stayed inside the animal or tumbled, and thus how big the body of evidence (sample size) really was for each variation of different twist rates, reworked to the more refined parameter of SF values, to give Gerard the required statistical confidence level to derive the break-points? I have asked for a simple matrix summary, but to no avail.

Gerard claimed that he shot several thousand head of game over the last 18 years, and that obviously is in support of his above observations, by the naked eye if you will, since no actual measurements seems to exists. If we put the claim of shot animals at say a mere 3,000 just to be conservative, being the several thousand referred to, over a period of 18 years we get to 167 animals per year. This was certainly not shot for the pot, unless the Schultz family consumes an antelope every second day - not even a family of 4 lions can do this. This is also a full time job that leaves little room to do some actual work to earn a living. Remember these figures are on average per year, even if occasional culling is done, these figures still boggle the mind.

I have not counted how many I have shot myself, but must still be well under a 100 head of game over a 30 year period, included in which I was participating only once to assist with culling.

Now could this be a lie?

Or, could this be a damn lie?

Or, could this actually be the truth?


You mull it over.

Warrior

WOW! I'm gone for something like 2 weeks and you guys are 16 pages further...this one's turning into the next "12 Gauge from Hell" thread! I cannot keep up!

So lets just go back to posting pictures of bullets, shops, safes, book collections and Fine Spirits! Michael, you got my attention! Knob Creek is my absolute (no pun) favorite! Second would be Buffalo Trace, then comes the warm Sake!

The South African I would bring is my soon-to-be wife! She speaks English perfectly, but man do I love when she doesn't

Warrior, I am so glad you made that post! I'm glad you sorted Gerard out, but I think he moved his responses to another thread, you should go get him there: http://forums.accuratereloadin...931034621#6931034621

I'll PM you my cell#, we should talk sometime (have very little time for forums, sorry). I would love you hear from you.

OK so being that the aluminum bullets are not PURE aluminum AND coated right after I guess we shal be OK.
With all of these going down 458 SOCOM barrels if there were an issue I guess we would have heard. Maybe a call into the manufacturer will be a good idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

a) By Will .... "You don't want to use solids on buff. They will zing right through on broadside shots and wound any others in the background. It just pisses me off when I see PH's tell their clients to use solids. It is just a dumb shit thing to do."

b) By Ganyana ...."If you are only planning on shooting your buffalo 'up the rear' then you may well need a solid. The regular woodleigh Solids in my 9,3 (286grn at a MV of about 2380fps) will reach the heart on a 'texas heart shot'. "
Warrior

Well Warrior

There are a couple of things I will pick out of your post to address. The rest is neither here nor there to me, either way. But I would put so little faith in the two mentioned comments above as to not even be worthy of mention as they are taken out of context somewhat being used here! The two, Will and Ganyana are pretty good blokes as far as I know, but that don't make them the end all of anything. In fact I almost called Ganyana to the mat this morning concerning a comment about advising his clients to NOT shoot more than once if he thought it was hit well! THAT IS VERY VERY VERY VERY WRONG!!!!!!!!!!! You never shoot once and see what happens, no matter if you think or even KNOW it was a perfect shot! NEVER. And that is not only for dangerous game that's for EVERYTHING. My training goes back to other areas of shooting for more than 30 years, when in a gun fight you never stop shooting until the problem is either solved, or you cannot possibly shoot anymore! PERIOD END OF STORY! If you can shoot, you shoot! And the best thing in world is to be shooting a solid as backups! Vast majority of the time, that animal is headed north, and you will need to shoot up the south end, long way from south to north, and it takes a good solid to do that! I have started doing this on ALL animals in the last 3 years and it works! Solids are not just for dangerous game anymore, a proper solid fits perfectly with second and third shot scenarios on everything I intend to hunt. To state that one need not fire a second, 3rd, 4th shot or whatever it takes to solve the problem, just because you think it was a good shot is a terrible mistake! What if there is a bullet failure of sorts? The factors involved with a shot not being perfect are numerous! Shoot until the problem is solved, or you cannot shoot again!

The statements made are plain stupid, and amateurish and not made by a shooter. First, one should know what is on the other side of a broadside buffalo, and I have yet to have to shoot a buffalo broadside with another buffalo standing there, even with a soft point, I wait for it to be clear before shooting. And should one HAVE to do so, be ready to handle both of them! But in a hunting situation, there is no need to have to do such a thing to begin with! Bull Shit! And Damn POOR advice!

Use proper softs up front for buffalo and everything on down, and a good solid for second + shots included kudu, elk, moose and anything of any size! Solve the problem before you stop shooting, always!

Michael

Extreme

You marrying a South African gal? Been with mine now for 10 years!



Gerard

Is there someone in the US that I can get some GSC bullets?

Michael

quote:

But before we move on, let us just ponder on 2 statement made today by Will and Ganyana in the thread ... "9.3X62 Solids for Buff?" on the use of Solids:

So exactly what is the point here of these statements from WHO? Yes, I know exactly who they are and bad advice is bad advice regardless of experience hunting, or if you are a PH and writer!!!!!


I have been watching that dribble since it come up! Some nut bag still living 100 yrs ago wants to only use solids for buffalo reading taylors books no less. I don't think anyone has told him about the bullet advances made in the last 100 yrs. Dribble about not using solids and I agree, not for the first shot of course, but from that point on you can't rely on the best of softs to get to the vitals from the rear of a buffalo! Damn dribble, crap you see up on the African Forum! Then the part about shooting once only if it LOOKED like a good shot was the last straw for me!

Too bad some would think that was something to regard!

Michael

quote:

So exactly what is the point here of these statements from WHO? Yes, I know exactly who they are and bad advice is bad advice regardless of experience hunting, or if you are a PH and writer!!!!!

Miichael458,

You want to know the connection or the context in which I quote these two gents? Well that is quite simple .... it is the context of Solids providing extreme penetration over Softs on large DG where far more penetration is required than on smaller soft game and here comes the connection .... Gerard did nor perform his tests on buffalo to evaluate reliable straight-line penetration, but on smaller soft game, which is moot. Solids can not be fully evaluated where the bullet just zips through.

Case in point, a big thing is being made by Gerard that the .416/410 gr FN is not as stable (in-target that is) as the 380 gr version. In your own test this bullet went 60 inches straight en only then veered off or tumble to be found at 63 inches. In my books this is excellent and the last 3 inches cannot be blamed on insufficient SF. So, this makes it difficult to believe and to support the notion that a higher SF is needed to make the 410 gr reliable. We have the same story with the .375/270 gr FN and the 300 gr version.

I am not convinced yet of the theory that it is SF, and that has nothing to do with the bullet that works as intended. It works for other reasons. I do not believe there is a practical and measureable difference between a bullet arriving at the target between 2.0 and 2.5 SF value (and the way these values creep up over distance anyway) as they are both "stable" enough as it is.

Just consider this again ... the theory .... 2.44 is not good enough, but 2.50 is .... what crap is this !!!

Then the 9,3 Wdl 320 gr FMJ that did so well in your tests have a SF value well below the 2.0 specification, like in the order of only 1.52.

Also my custom turned 9,3/286-gr Solid Bronze bullet with a meplat of 4.4 mm, has a SF value of only 1.75 and it gives reliable straight-line penetration. Here it is on the far right.



This is why I cannot buy into this notion of Gerard.

Warrior

Hey Warrior,
Gerard says 2.5 is good. You say 2.44 is good enough.

You have not been building FN bullets with a flawless record for more than ten years.

You have not done any comparative testing of FN bullets. Gerard did comparative testing of FN bullets when you were still wet behind the ears.

Gerard has personally shot much more game than you. By your own calculation about 30 times more.

I will take Gerard's opinion over yours any day. Besides, you lie about too many things.

hmm .. i need some of those 607gr bullets .510, please! i wanna hit a boar with one, at 1800!

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I might not have enough samples to work up that far? I don't think the 458 B&M would get us to there???? If I have enough will try some in the Lott. Jim, you lurking out there somewhere, quickly throw the Quickload on that and see what we can do with the 458 B&M and the Lott, what powders?

Michael

Hey Michael,

As requested, here are a couple of loadings that meet or exceed 4000fps:
458 B&M, 86.5grs max case capacity w/100gr SST Aluminum HP, 18” barrel:
• 86.5grs of HLil’Gun = 4339fps & 4181ft-lbs @ 61779 psi
• 86.5grs of H110 = 4134fps & 3794ft-lbs @ 56545 psi
• 86.5grs of H4227 = 4100fps & 3733ft-lbs @ 57904 psi
458 Lott w/101.6grs max case capacity w/100gr SST Aluminum HP, 18” barrel:
• 86.5grs of HLil’Gun = 4359fps & 4219ft-lbs @ 60638 psi
• 98.0grs of H110 = 4289fps & 4289ft-lbs @ 61119 psi
• 98.0grs of H4227 = 4264fps & 4038ft-lbs @ 61226 psi

Thanks Capo.
Well seems like 4,000 FPS is not out of reach for the B&M or Lott with these special purpose aluminum bullets and the 45-70 shoots them @ 3,000

quote:

Originally posted by capoward:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I might not have enough samples to work up that far? I don't think the 458 B&M would get us to there???? If I have enough will try some in the Lott. Jim, you lurking out there somewhere, quickly throw the Quickload on that and see what we can do with the 458 B&M and the Lott, what powders?

Michael

Hey Michael,

As requested, here are a couple of loadings that meet or exceed 4000fps:
458 B&M, 86.5grs max case capacity w/100gr SST Aluminum HP, 18” barrel:
• 86.5grs of HLil’Gun = 4339fps & 4181ft-lbs @ 61779 psi
• 86.5grs of H110 = 4134fps & 3794ft-lbs @ 56545 psi
• 86.5grs of H4227 = 4100fps & 3733ft-lbs @ 57904 psi
458 Lott w/101.6grs max case capacity w/100gr SST Aluminum HP, 18” barrel:
• 86.5grs of HLil’Gun = 4359fps & 4219ft-lbs @ 60638 psi
• 98.0grs of H110 = 4289fps & 4289ft-lbs @ 61119 psi
• 98.0grs of H4227 = 4264fps & 4038ft-lbs @ 61226 psi

quote:

My theory goes like this (Alf can ad the scientific names and Warrior can pretend to understand and argue.):

You need enough static stability (SF) to keep the bullet axis aligned when stagnation pressure develops on impact. The higher the impact speed, the more SF is needed. The bullet will collect a wobble as it transitions from flight to tissue. The bigger the wobble, the more difficult it is to dampen the wobble and the quicker the bullet will tumble.

Once the bullet is submerged in the target, wobbledampening is required.

Wobbledampeners are:

Shoulder stabilisation.
Dart stabilisation.
Absence of flow pressure on the shaft.

Having all three is first prize.

If dart stabilisation cannot be achieved, you had better have the other two.
If dart stabilisation and shoulder stabilisation are absent, you are on thin ice.
If neither dart nor shoulder stabilisation are at work and you started with too little SF, the bullet will do a Warrior on you. (Duck and dive, change direction or just lose coherency)

Thanks for sharing your theory, Gerard.
I'll have to mull this over for a while.
I'm just beginning to halfway understand some of these matters.

Y'all gonna have to excuse my tirade above concerning the quotes stated! That is a personal pet peeve of mine, and I think I forgot to take my meds this morning!!!!!!

Anyway, with that said, Warrior, I'm really not heavy on this SF thing between you and Gerard. I am not that familiar with what you guys are on about. What I think we must suffice to say is that we, which would include you apparently, all concur that GSC Bullets are in fact some of the best we have to hunt large dangerous game with. Although I have not used them in the field, I believe that I would have great confidence in them. The design is good, and Gerard has put tremendous effort into as much research as possible to get them there. No, a kudu or some other thinner skinned critters are not buffalo, but these too represent more data and one can learn from study of these as well. Before I put bullet to buffalo with my 50s, I put them to wildebeast, giraffe, kudu, and zebra to do a bullet study in 2006. This lead to many changes in my .500 calibers, one of which was to confirm my tests in the wet print and lead to a faster twist, from 1;18 to 1;12. Also this lead to a big change in the nose profiles of my solids. So bullet to flesh is a good thing, and it won't always be buffalo. Eland are pretty good test subjects and I watched a couple of my round nose solids take a 90 degree turn and exit in the wrong direction from entry.

I think you have stated your case here, and if possible at all I would like to move on and leave with the SF behind. Thanks in advance.

NOw, most important, the bullet you show on the far right looks pretty good to me! Basically looks like a barnes type profile? Nice bullet, what have you tested it in? Oh, When I say barnes profile, more like a bigger bore, 416 up. The barnes 9.3s are not good bullets in the test medium at all!!!! That meplat is far too small on that bullet.



Again, Gerard, in case you miss my question above, anywhere here in the US I can get some GSC? Anyone else know where I can get some???

Buffalo, 416 Barnes Banded 400 gr have been sent out today. On the way.

Jeffe

Need some .510s with the slits in the petals? How many? I will see if I can get some, I can get you an order for 500 pretty easy? , OK I will put in an order for 500 of them and send you a bill?
I always order 500 at a time!

Jim

I knew I could count on you! You Da Man! Good lord man, that's a lot of juice for the 458 B&M? OK will see how many I get for samples and take it from there.

Oh, Boomy, be quite, see what you start? Troublemaker! How many pages are going to be devoted to aluminum bullets now??? And what we going to do with them anyway?


Let me see, what did I do with that bottle of meds?

Michael

The use of aluminum is a verrrrrry useful idea!!!

Turn your beloved big bores bolts and doubles or shotguns into low recoil home defense guns.
Use aluminum bullets to train yourself not to flinch.
Turn squirrels, rabbits or crows into an explosion of red mist fur and feathers.

Shoot DWG Dangerous Water Jugs for shits and giggles.

Let your kids shoot you beloved big bores for low recoil training exercises.

Many uses...

quote:

Oh, Boomy, be quite, see what you start? Troublemaker! How many pages are going to be devoted to aluminum bullets now??? And what we going to do with them anyway?

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The use of aluminum is a verrrrrry useful idea!!!
Turn squirrels, rabbits or crows into an explosion of red mist fur and feathers. [QUOTE]

Boomy, if you throw enough stuff out there eventually you will get one to stick, or in this case peek my interest, shame on you! HMMMMMMMMM.............................

Michael

I want to see a you tube video of a crow being hit by an eco-friendly recycled aluminum bullet @ 4,000 fps!!!

Rob makes an aluminum 12 gauge slug that could kill all kinds of stuff.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
The use of aluminum is a verrrrrry useful idea!!!
Turn squirrels, rabbits or crows into an explosion of red mist fur and feathers. [QUOTE]

Boomy, if you throw enough stuff out there eventually you will get one to stick, or in this case peek my interest, shame on you! HMMMMMMMMM.............................

Michael

For Capoward,

Would you do a Quickload on comparing Ramshot Hunter over two calibres? I will need to load up some of the bullets in this thread "blind", and then take them around the world for testing. Hopefully, one powder for all.

Barnes 185 TTSX in 338 WM with Hunter
(guessing about 76-78grains for 3100 fps and 60000psi. what's QL say about the 60k and 64k psi levels?)

Barnes 250 TSX in 338WM with Hunter
(looking for 2600-2700 around 60k)

Also,250 banded solid in 338 WM with Hunter
(Michael said we gotta have some in our back pocket and I think he's right.)

Barnes 350 TSX in 416 Rigby with Hunter
(probably 103-105 grains for2650-2700 fps?
my Norma brass weighs either 328 and 340 grains)

Barnes 350 banded solid 416Rigby with Hunter.

(PS: I have to load up expected final loads to transport (airplanes don't like loose primers and powder these days), but will test and build up and reweigh powder as necessary for the rest of the lot, fret not.)

I've appreciated this thread and it has helped me 'bite the bullet'. I'm still happy with the 350 TSX and BS for the 416 Rigby, but I just sent this year's order in for our 338WM.

We have lots of 225 TTSX and are very confident now with that bullet after these tests. However, because we already have a passel of 225 TTSXs,
I've ordered boxes of:

185 TTSX .338
nice small-medium+ game bullet with great trajectory and energy out at 300-400 yards.
Also lighter recoil for guests who sometimes shoot a rifle.

250 TSX .338
went with TSX over MRX because of price and flat tip. I'm guessing that it will do 17-20" in Michael's tests with full weight retention, should he shoot one. This will be the bullet of choice up the spout of the 338 when walking the forests (and 416 nearby). If we run out of 250, or are in a 'low-buffalo area', we still have lots of 225 TTSX for this role. And that, too, is one impressive medium cal bullet, with a nice trajectory to 350yd.

250 BS .338
nice to have something that will penetrate 50+" straight in test medium. Don't expect to shoot too many, but very nice to have and to be confident of their reliability.

Would have considered Gerard's stuff, of course, but its not easily available in US at the moment.

Michael,
What is the twist of your 9.3B&M?

quote:

Is there someone in the US that I can get some GSC bullets?

The process has started.

Pontificus Erroneus

Michael.
Need your postal adress. Pls email me..

Maybe I should send you a couple of the 400 grs Speer AGS solids for the .416 as well. I have a few in stock. Ganyana says they are the very best penetrating bullets ever.. FN design and very short for weight should be good.. Would you like to test a few..?

Good Morning Gentlemen!!!!!!! At least on my side of the world!

Tanzan

I am very pleased that I have been able to help you with some of your choices. Some of which are my choices too! For instance, because of the 338 Tests we conducted, my hunting partner is going with us for muskox in April, he is taking a 338 WInchester. I am loading up the 225 Barnes X for his load on that hunt.

I have a box of 250 Barnes X that came in last week. So I will test those, either this week or next week for you.


Gerard

9.3 B&M Twist??? I don't know, I will find out. That's always been one of the things I leave up to Brian and JD at SSK. Until very recently for standard calibers I really have not paid attention. The only one I got involved with was the .500 calibers. I will find out and let you know! I really like that little 9.3 B&M, such a nice little rifle to carry! We did turn the contour down a notch from the 416-50 B&Ms. Was perfect for it too. I must soon do something with that rifle. I have two stocks being done now, one maple, one english walnut. Both WSM size, decided to build another 50 and a second 9.3 B&M with those.



Buffalo

Does a bear crap in the woods? Of course I want to see a couple Speer AGS solids! And of course I'd like to test! THANK YOU!



OK, test day today! Finally boss has given me a pass, so today is test day! I hope to get started early this morning. Priority and first in line is Sharps Black Powder loads at 48 yds. What follows next I don't know yet this morning, have to look at the list. I also have to do a print inventory, I am quite sure I am getting down to only a few boxes of medium left.

Friday and Saturday might be test days too. Not sure right now, and not sure exactly how much I have to test right now. I know I want to play T'Rex a bit, since I have plenty of chewed up medium and such to make a T'Rex Box, which is somewhat haphazard anyway.

Michael