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Michael, Since your mind is wandering about doubles I think you should look at the Sabbatti 500NE that Cabelas is selling. This is a very light weight gun at 8 lbs 12 ozs I think. Priced at $5000 this is a very inexpensive double. Get someone like JJ to cut the barrels and regulate it and you would have a 500NE double at maybe 8 lbs. Sam | |||
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Ouch !!!  I'm not recoil sensitive but that would hurt. | |||
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Peter I know this was addressed to Michael so I hope you don’t mind my commenting… Michael has been kind enough to provide me samples of the various SST FN and HP monometals that he uses. Of great interest is the fact that the shank diameter and groove diameters typically are .011” less than the band diameter and the band diameter is typically .001” less than the spec bullet diameter… So for his 500 MDM and 50 B&M cartridges with their .490” bore diameter and .500” groove diameter the bullet shank and groove diameter is typically .488” diameter and the band diameter is .499”…both slightly less than the barrel dimensions but the bullets are very accurate. I have talked with North Fork Technologies and they will accommodate slight changes from their bullet standard…I believe it requires a 5-box order and perhaps a setup charge for their CNC machine if the dimensions are substantially different from their standard bullet. Now this is presuming that the barrel is cut within +/- .0005” bore and groove diameters throughout the barrel length…and if so, I believe for the barrel specifications that you’ve provided you’d be fine with a FN monometal, bore-riding driving-band style, having shank and groove dimensions of .448” diameter and a driving band dimension of .464” diameter. And for your DR you should stay with the narrow driving band style bullets manufactured by GS Custom, North Fork Technologies, and S&H Super Precision. With these dimensions only the narrow driving bands would touch the barrel, never the bullet shank, so you should see zero adverse effect upon the barrels. Of course Michael could have some SST bullets FN and HP monometals manufactured in .465 caliber with narrow driving bands rather than the wide driving bands that he typically uses then I would certainly recommend them as well. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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sam damn are you out to hurt the poor man ? i am not even sure i would want a 450/400 3.25 at 8 pounds, much less a 500 NE. best peter | |||
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jim i dont mind you commenting at all, fact is i really appriciate you doing so. i agree with you that it shouldent be to much of a problem to make this work. and i should hopefully have some time to contact north fork next week. NOW next big question, what can we do with my conventionel rifled, tapered bore 12 bore double. It goes from an large 11 bore to a 12 bore.  the driving bands would be impressive.....best peter | |||
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500N and Peter I can't say how the recoil would be on a 8lb 500 Nitro IN A DOUBLE, but in my .500 MDM they come in at 8.25 lbs with 21 inch barrels and drive 550 gr bullets at 2200 and 510 gr bullets at 2300 fps. At first it was a little hateful, but after about a 800+ rounds in 3 guns it's not so bad, of course much of this being test work, load data, terminals, accuracy, all sorts of things like that, most were benched and I always use a sissy pad at the bench. The other day shooting Sams doubles neither of us needed or used a sissy pad for his rifles, I found them very very pleasant to shoot, and a heap of fun. Thanks to Peter for pushing me to do so, and thanks to Sam for providing! HEH HEH!!!!! No, if I ever had to be "Double Wide Trash" I would have to do a 500 something. Of course easy to do a 500 Nitro! First let me tell you, that it might be possible, in my small mind, that a 500 Nitro (or similar) just might be about the finest cartridge or similar cartridge that can produce the same or similar bullets at those velocities that in my mind has ever been devised. But it must be a combination of Rifle-Cartridge-Bullet to make the system work. Cartridge alone, does not do it. Now as stated the first time in my life I ever shot a 500 Nitro was Tuesday in Sams rifle. But I have plenty of experience in other areas that I believe I can draw some fair conclusions about what would work well in the field. So 500 Nitro has always been IT for me. But never really a "Double Wide" sorta chap, and being a "single wide Winchester M70" type chap, I made a 500 Nitro for my bolt guns! A little different of course, instead of .510 it's .500, it's rimless and fits and functions 3 down in a Win M70 perfectly, and it is a rather capable cartridge, with the right bullets of course. So I love my Platform, the cartridge has the capacity , and I have the right bullets, and not only met my goals, but exceeded somewhat if desired. I could get real interested in something along the lines of a 500 MDM-R! WHAT? 500 MDM-R. Maybe a 500 Nitro squeezed to .500, probably shortened to 3" or so, with 21 inch barrels! Hmmmm! Well, just a thought! Thanks, glad to have you over here 500N, welcome. Jim You are far more qualified to answer Peter than myself, so glad you did! Oh yes, I could spec any sort of grooves I wanted on the bullets, that's not even an issue. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Peter, Ha Ha…now you’re trying to get me into trouble. For the jumbo bores I recommend that you jump over to this thread and pose the question to Rob (robgunbuilder ) and Ed (hubel458): http://forums.accuratereloadin.../4711043/m/848109883 Those boys are into some really big stuff relating to bore cartridges and Rob in particular may have a bore-riding driving-band bullet style that would fit your needs. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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While I did not have time to hacksaw the barrels off of Sam's rifles, I did manage while his back was turned to slip a couple of 577s and a 500 Nitro in my front pocket while he was not looking! Walked in the house with those 577s in my pocket, made my wife's eyes get real big too! HEH HEH HEH!!!!!!! Hell, had one in each pocket too!!!!! Figure to "double" my FUN! Oh yes, Pun intended in several different directions!   Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, It’s not nice to fool “she who must be obeyed”! Payback can be pure hell!!! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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You Pirate! | |||
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Jim i have been following the 12GFH for a long time and those guy's must be buildt sturdyer than me. no the other rifle is a black powder 12 bore ele gun, but the fun thing about it is that it has conical bores conventionel rifling damdest thing i ever saw so i am trying to figure out what i will try to feed it besides round ball. best peter | |||
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This might be a good place to pose this question. If elephants are not on the menu, considering the quaility of expanding bullets available today like the Swift, TSX, North Fork, and GSC, are solids even necessary anymore? I can envision a buffalo hunt with one TSX in the tube and two or three more in the magazine depending on caliber. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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Well, from my perspective - talking about our Buffalo, yes, I like to carry a couple for insurance. A Buffalo's horns can stop a SN Bullet. A Buffalo's jaw bone, probably the hardest / densest bone in the body can stop a SN and FMJ Bullet even when fired at 10 feet into the bend. I tried it after being told it would. End to end on a Buff, I know a FMJ can do it, with a SN I tend to shoot for the hip joint as it pulls them up quick smart whenever i have done it and allows for a finisher or put down shot if it hasn't gone down already. And of course when it's coming at you, not that any SN have not worked for me but a FMJ should keep going whereas a SN will pull up, often before the chest cavity is reached. That's just my HO from personal experience, others will have different opinions. | |||
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I'm surprised Sullivan managed to shoot most his elephant with that gun/bullet. Must have been lucky to place bullets off target as required to correct veered penetration-a mere 1200 times in the field  Karl. | |||
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Valid point. OK, how come for years people have been using Woodleigh's yet all of a sudden they seem to "veer" according to the test box. OK, we have a few real world examples from people on here but my experience has been different - albeit on one type of large DG. Talking generally here. That is the problem with forums, one person's experience becomes the standard - be it FN, GSC, Woodleigh, Hornady. Yes, we can all provide experiences where something hasn't worked as it should have, but I really don't put much faith in the veering being shown in this test box. Just my HO. | |||
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Pretty much everything 500N says I go with too concerning a need for solids. While he may prefer something else, I will go with a proper FN solid. I think that there is more reasons than ever to use a good solid. Naturally I much prefer a good FN solid over anything else. I shoot and use solids for nearly every single hunting mission. I have always used a good expanding bullet up front for buffalo, the first shot, the shot where the buffalo is unaware most of the time, lot's of times the broadside shot. What happens then? 9 of 10 times that second shot is going to be at a fleeing buffalo, and few if any good expanding bullets can guarantee to reach the vitals at that point. A good FN solid can do this. It can also be relied upon to break bone. A few years ago on a little test shoot in RSA with several .500 caliber, most of the bullets then were untried bullets at the velocity I could run them at. Untried, but not untested as I had tested every single bullet before hand, just as you see many here. However, not one to take chances, and this needed to be tested too, I backed every shot with a little round nose solid, the first in several generations to get to where I am now. All of the bullets I used were a success at the velocity I ran them, only because I had done preliminary test work and did not over run the bullets. If an animal did not go down immediately I followed up with one of those solids. Again, most of the time your shot is at a fleeing animal. Wildebeast, zebra, eland, and giraffe are not small animals, many excellent expanding bullets will also not reach the vitals on these animals with 100% consistency. Some can and will of course, but a good FN solid will increase that potential quite a bit. I thought it worked so well on that trip that I have incorporated flat nose solids into every hunt from then on, and with great success. So for me I not only use solids for elephant, hippo, followup shots on buffalo, but followup shots on all other game in which I have shot since 2006. Of course todays FN solids hit animals hard in addition to proper penetration, it is a noticeable effect on all animals. I also see our variety of solids continue to increase in number too, which is extremely encouraging. For instance in 458 caliber Barnes has a banded 500 gr bullet great for the 458 Lott, 450 gr Banded Solid for 458 Winchester and my own 458 B&M, and low and behold a small 330 gr Banded that works in EXCELLENT combination with my 458 B&M and lighter 350-400 gr bullets shooting to the same POI. Woodleighs new mono, in 400 gr 458 caliber, and I understand there are a couple more in that caliber! Long Live the Great Solid Bullets of the World! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I find it hard to beleive the old timers followed such faulty technology so long and achieved the bags they did, if the above test is an indication of how their bullets performed everytime. I find it hard to believe so many of them survived in fact with 577's veering off course at just 14" of penetration. This is a slope leading to a 45-70 with FN being a better choice than a traditional 577nitro. Karl. | |||
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You are missing the point of doing test work. I have never said that the round nose bullets don't work. Just that the flat nose designs are superior and do work. Wet newsprint and no other medium simulates animal tissue. It is a reasonable medium in which to test bullets in a consistent way that in most circumstances can be "CORRELATED" back to a medium (in this case animal tissue) that will allow you to test ONE BULLET AGAINST ANOTHER BULLET. Yes, it can be "Correlated" If you read this thread, you will see how bullets compare from this test medium to animal tissue, and I have correlating data between the two. I did not start doing this yesterday! Reasonable Medium! Defined as a reasonable test medium in which to correlate data and information from test medium to mission parameters. If our mission is to study hunting bullets then shooting cold rolled steel is not a "reasonable medium" then is it. If we are testing armor piercing bullets, then of course testing in steel is a proper and reasonable test medium. I believe that wet print test mediums are a reasonable medium in which to test hunting bullets. As are several other mediums. Are they an exact simulation? NO. I am nearly sick to death of hearing this "My FMJ worked for 1000s of elephant and buffalo and now they don't work anymore". Jesus H Christ! Try to understand this; If a reasonable medium is used, and in this case it is. This is to test one bullet, or one bullet design against another. If one bullet fails the test, while the other bullet continues to succeed in the test in the same consistent conditions, then what is determined by the test? It may very well determine that one design, or particular bullet just might be the better design, depending on the mission at hand! Now in the case of the good old round nose solid or fmj that has killed dinosaurs since the beginning of time and then even before that, the tests do not say that they will fail in the field all the time or even a lot of the time. The tests tell us that the "POTENTIAL" IS there for them to fail at some point in time. Does anyone deny this??? Will you tell me that there is zero potential that a round nose solid could veer off course in animal tissue, or that one never has??? The tests also tell us that there is a greater "POTENTIAL" for a Flat Nose solid to SUCCEED. Does anyone here deny that a flat nose solid stands a better chance or Potential to succeed??? Know this, I mean a proper flat nose solid, with proper twist rates for it that will stabilize it, not all FN solids are created equal, so don't tell me about some solids made 20 yrs ago that broke or made of the wrong material. Proper meplat size is at least above 60% meplat for caliber. If you throw back this stuff in my face, then there is vast differences in the 470 Woodleigh and the 458 Woodleighs nose profile, with the 470 nose profile of the Woodleigh being the worse design ever, with the 510s and the 577s not too damn far behind, and are well known to fail much of the time. So don't start throwing crap. Try to open your mind and actually read what I am saying, and not anymore than that. I believe a proper FN solid is Superior in design than the old standby round nose, regardless of maker. I did not and have never said that a round nose will CONSISTENTLY FAIL EVERY SINGLE TIME IN THE FIELD ON ELEPHANT. I have shot more elephant with Round NOse SOlids than I have Flat Nose SOlids---but I am a 100% convert! I have shot more buffalo with flat nose, and there is a hell of an impact difference to begin with, and penetration is exactly what it is suppose to be. Now those that don't care for looking at flat nose solids, great, have to it with my blessing. They will continue to work for you, most of the time. For me, I make other choices and that is all. No more, no less. Please do read what I have to say carefully and get what I say correct. Thanks Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Karl This thread is approaching 60 pages of information to this point, there are a hell of a lot of things here, and no one, including myself has taken the stance that the "SLOPE IS LEADING TO A 45-70 with a FN being better than a 577 Nitro with a RN". Now if you can go through all the pages here and have read this fact bring it to my attention please! Can I ask you a question? Is there a difference in vehicle technology today than there was 100 yrs ago? Is there more technology today than there was 100 yrs ago? How about the computer that has you linked from where ever you are sitting now, is that better today than it was 100 yrs ago? If the answer to ANY of these questions, and the other 1000 analogies that could be applied, any one of them, then why is it so DIFFICULT to understand that a change in Nose Profile of a bullet cannot be an improvement over what was around 100 yrs ago???? I totally do not understand that concept? Also in your analogy of the 45/70 compared to the 577 Nitro, did you see any photographs or test work done between those two cartridges? Do you see that anywhere in this thread, if you have read the entire thread? No, what you do see on the same page are some Flat Nose 577 caliber bullets that were tested. Now I ask you this, do you see in those tests anywhere where I say that the Flat Nose is better than the RN on animal tissue? You might, but I don't think so, the reason goes without even having to say, one should be able to see that for themselves. Even the most die hard Woodleigh FMJ fan does admit to the deeper and straighter penetration of a proper designed and stabilized FN solid over a round nose design. Even some of those DIE HARD fans so scared of the "New Technology" that it is pronounced too good and gives too much penetration. Read the thread and what it is about before you make assumptions that are erroneous please! Thank You Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, well test the 45-70 with FN and tell us all whether it beats the 577 nitro's result 14" straight line penetration before tumbling don't look too hard to beat from where I am sitting. You seriously telling us you think Sullivan took all those elephants with a bullet that would perform that badly? Either he is lying or your test needs tweaking. Karl. | |||
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I need to send MM some hammerheads! #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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Karl Just go read for yourself. No, I can beat 14 inches with any 338 caliber Barnes TSX. I can take a 250 gr 338 Barnes FN and get 60 plus inches of penetration. I can take a good flat nose bullet in a 45 Colt and beat that, or any number of things to do that. Any comparisons you make are your own,not mine. How about we compare the two bullets tested, the 675 Flat Nose and the Woodleigh FMJ? What would be wrong with that? I really can't speak for Sullivan, I was not there at the time. And I am not telling you anything, you did not read my post? But obviously you are not interested in reading the thread, or you could very easy see I am not telling you anything about Sullivan, or his elephants, or the bullets he used. Thank you for your participation. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I am sorry Karl, If I could read better I would have tuned right in to what you really want. Since you are not so happy about the tests, your favorite bullet obviously didn't do as well as you would like, You want me to change the tests so that your favorite bullet will do better. Can you tell me what reasonable test medium that might be? NO, I don't want to hear elephants. Elephants are not test medium, they are noble animals that should be taken in a human manner with the best equipment and bullet available "At the Time". It must be a test medium consisting of non-animal tissue. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael I don't believe wet newspaper simulates animal tissue. I haven't shot that many solids but can't think of hearing anyone say they have veered consitenly at 14" after penetration. Sorry, your tests do not gell in the real world from what I can see and have experience. Test medium - ANIMALS, the only real world test medium. OK, we have it good here in that we can whack Buffalo and test bullets which is what Woodleigh does - plus a few other animals for good measure like pigs, sheep, kangaroos. BTW - No need to shout or get heated, just having a healthy discussion. leave the heat for JPK, peterdk, Warrior and others | |||
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Live aminals? This is grotesque. And no, it doesn't do the job- Whelen proved this 100 years ago .. not only is every animal different EVERY emotional start is different .. a scared, young, pig does not offer the same results as his sedated twin, nor the same results when dead. #dumptrump opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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500 N Please read the notes in red. Those were stated just above, not but minutes ago in my previous post above at 6:21 PM. You are not listening to what I am saying. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK | |||
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Boomy It's a waste of time with the majority, this is why I do not post there and some other places here. Big Bores is mostly shooters that understand the concept without emotional and nostalgic attachments to bullets. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Especially when shooting them with a CRF bolt gun ... | |||
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                    Yes, I will continue to do test work exactly as I have done for 15 years and I will continue to shoot animals based on that test work and yes I will continue to make the right decisions. Others must make their own decisions based on whatever parameters they desire. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I wonder why Sullivan seems to get charged more than most people? Maybe he's shooting Woodleigh RN solids! | |||
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Our Boy Sam sent me an email a little while ago. I had made some mention about the .500 caliber 400 gr Sierra and the 500 gr Hornady being excellent performers within their velocity envelope, and excellent choices for the 50 B&M Alaskans, the lever guns. But in the bolt guns the large lead meplats catch on the bottom of the feed ramps of the M70s in 50 B&M SS and the 50 B&M. He just sent me some photos of some sorta thing he made that I can reform the noses of these bullets to a more rounded profile! Oh my god, did you read what I just said? I am taking a perfectly good flat nose and "ROUNDING IT". YES I HAVE LOST MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!  HEH!!!!! I will get a photo posted later. This just enhanced the 50 B&M Super Short and the 50 B&M quite a bit as these are excellent bullets with excellent terminal ballistics! How do I know this? Wow, I tested like crazy these bullets (along with every single .500 caliber bullet I could get my hands on) for the rifles and learned upper and lower velocity envelopes before going to the field to shoot live game. I learned the upper limits on the 400 Sierra was right around 2000 fps before the jackets started shedding and bullets started coming apart. For the 500 gr Hornady I tested up to 2100 fps and it held together still, but was starting to loose out at that, so I set that at the upper limit, with around 2000 being a big hammer. Took both on a shooting mission, along with some others in 2006 and put metal to flesh then. Of course my "so called" tests had been exactly valid and worth every penny. All bullets performed exactly as they had in the tests and I shot 18 animals in 4 days time doing the test. The only failures I had were the round nose solids we had designed for the rifles at that time. They veered of course and went in all sorts of directions. If I had known then, what I know now, I certainly would have documented, measured, those failures, but at the time all I did was observe them, and proceeded to make changes in the bullets, by increasing twist rates and adding weight to the bullets, but most importantly putting a flat meplat on them of 60% of caliber or better! That changed everything, and gave validity to the cartridge and rifle combination. Now Sam has made a great stride for the rifles by being able now to reliably use these two bullets in the M70s! Thank You Sam!!!!! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Let's see now, I count a very very small, but loud, handful of folks that ALWAYS denounce any test work because the Round Nose didn't do well in the tests. One rarely hears from this same small minority about "How Well the Flat Nose Designs Done in the Test Work", I wonder why that is? Just curious of course. I mean here we are wasting time on how poor the 577 Woodleigh did, when I think we should sit back and forget about that, and look how well that Sam's designed Flat Nose did in the 577, even at low velocity! Why is that not discussed by this crowd? Forget the failures, look at the success! Now I can very easy predict how well that particular flat nose bullet will do on buffalo, elephant and hippo! I know it for a fact before I ever leave home for the field! I know for a fact, the bullet that has been successful in the test work, WILL BE SUCCESSFUL in the field on buffalo, elephant, and hippo! How do I know this to be a fact? Been there done it several times! You see, that's the way I do it, test first, field work following up! Seems right to me????? If I am a betting fellow, and I am watching the horses, I would not bet on the horse that comes in "Dead Last In Every Race"---I think I will bet on the "Horse that Tends to win the Race every time". I suppose that's not much of a gamble is it?? Oh, wait a second, who really wants to "gamble" on a very expensive hunt, in which it is "possible" to loose more than a few dollars? So I guess it's not a gamble at all, if you look at it that way! Hmmmmm, points to ponder I suppose! Good Night All, past my bedtime! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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What is not widely accepted is the fact that you can get by with .28 SD with a flat nose solid. Any hope for yet for a 577 B&M? 500 Jeffery cut to 2.25"??? Single stack in a Win short action. If you want you can give it a .5" meplat for a 85% meplat to diameter ratio  Cut the case off at the shoulder and   577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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i still like sams design a lot, still has an old school look to it as well. ok guy's question. are these designs protected ? the reason why i ask is that i will get my own cnc lathe withinn the near future, its job will mainly be screws, pins and small stuff for the guns but i might take a whirl at this for the fun in the down time on the machine, just dont want to be stepping on any toe's. im just trying to get an idea of what i can and can't do with this best peter | |||
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emails are easy to misread in their tone. And others of us are following and wondering why things sometimes appear 'heated'. Perhaps one can add some perspective in order to understand how roundnose solids have succeeded in the past: In evaluating the "14 inch" test result of Michael, people should remember that the medium typically translates out to 50-100% extra penetration in animal tissue. Plus, if a solid starts to veer at 14" but only hits the bottom of the box at 36" then it has not moved too far off course during the following 22". That means that in the real world of animals a person might have seen 'pretty straight' penetration for 50 inches, more than enough for many a brain shot or heart shot. Michael's tests do not call in question someone who has successfully used a bullet for 1000 DG shots. What they say is that in that grey area where the shot was slightly off course and needed to stay absolutely straight in order to succeed, in those cases a properly twisted Flat Nose of proper bullet length can be expected to provide extra insurance of straighter penetration out at the 30-50 inch range. Solids have failed in the past, and will fail in the future. These tests help us to understand just how and where they might be failing. Let's cut down another tree and thank the newspaper industry for their contributions to our pursuits. +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Michael that's quite a wide range of results! Thanks again for sharing. Nice documentation. Rusty We Band of Brothers! DRSS, NRA & SCI Life Member "I am rejoiced at my fate. Do not be uneasy about me, for I am with my friends." ----- David Crockett in his last letter (to his children), January 9th, 1836 "I will never forsake Texas and her cause. I am her son." ----- Jose Antonio Navarro, from Mexican Prison in 1841 "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man." Thomas Jefferson Declaration of Arbroath April 6, 1320-“. . .It is not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.” | |||
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Guys I must explain something. 416Tanzan brings up excellent points, but right up front it is easy to misread my tone, and it may appear to be heated when I capitalize words and emphasize some words, I think that is taking as "screaming". It's not. The problem is I am trying to bring some words to the front, catch the eye, so that some of these guys will read this a little more throughly and attempt to understand what I am talking about. Exactly like last night! Only a couple of posts apart, a few minutes apart, one fellow did not read my post, and posted without reading. I reposted it minutes later, emphasized in red, urged him to please read what I had said before going off. It is terribly frustrated to have words put back in my mouth, that I had already addressed and they don't read what I post! So I have to do it over and over and over. Of course I know I go too much in depth, posts are mostly too long, and I have not learned to keep it short. My fault. 416Tanzan I see you have read and understand exactly SPOT ON. Thank you very much for your take and remarks, maybe those that have questions will get it. Rusty Very happy you to have you and thank you. I am not the only one here doing the testing. Mike joined me some time ago and personally I think he is doing some fantastic work on his end. RIP is getting back in the test game soon with some new test medium call Sim-test, and we are all awaiting that! There is a lot of info here, we have all learned quite a bit about many things, this is not just a "Solid" thread, there are lot's of bullets being worked with. Hang around, join in, and would appreciate your input. Thanks Again Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Peter I can't answer your question especially concerning the major manufacturers of some bullets, the design might be protected, I don't know? But if I had a CNC machine I would make any damn thing or design I wanted for my own personal use. Trying to sell them to others might be a problem. But if it was for my personal use they could kiss my grits! Of course if I had a CNC machine I would have everything broken, and in taters in minutes, unless it was idiot proof! They don't allow me to have tools like that. One of the worst things that could happen around here is if I got my hands on a drill or moto tool! Man I can tear some things up with one of those! You should see me with a bastard file! But they took those away too. When it comes to things like that, I just come up short of talent! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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