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Boomy Give me a breather! 577 B&M on the back burner. Currently I have the 458 B&M Super Short to start working with, 458 B&M SA, assisting a touch with the 375 B&M, 475 B&M and 475 B&M Super Short will be in the mix before long. And you have other projects for me too! Let me sort these out first.  M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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OK I have made a decision on the test work that I do. I will no longer test any round nose design solid here. Reasons. 1. It pisses some folks off when there favorite bullet that they have shot 1000s of elephants and buffalos don't do so well in the tests. Even though that is not my fault, and I have to waste too much of my time trying to explain it to jug heads that do not wish to learn or understand what is really going on. 2. They do too much damage to my impact test boxes and when the exit the box damage to my range facilities. 3. I have tested enough of them to know exactly what they are going to do anyway, so further test work is futile. 4. There is little point in it, there may not be any round nose solids in the future anyway? Take a look, Barnes no longer makes them, I don't think Hornady makes them anymore. Both major manufacturers dropped the RN in favor of their own version of a flat nose solid. Who is holding out? Who will be in the RN market in the future? Even Woodleigh now has a supreme FN design. So in the near future there may not even be any to worry with anyway. So there will be no more arguments and wasting my time trying to explain why the round nose fmj just don't cut it. Again, ALL test work with ANY round nose solid or FMJ here at this test facility has been terminated permanently. Thank you Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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You are a good man Michael  Excited to see the results of all your babies. Especially the 458 SS I just think a 577 short packy popper would be sweeeeeeeeeeeet! 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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 You might have a good lawsuit against Woodleigh  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Boomy, I said ROUND NOSE, not Woodleigh, any round nose bullet, they all do the same. So no picking on Woodleigh! It's just that they are about the only ones left making them. Oh no my man! I love Woodleigh bullets! I have shelves full of Woodleigh Bullets! When it comes to softs they are certainly one of my favorites in many cases! But I love bullets, all sorts of bullets, I like Swifts and Barnes too, North Forks and GSC, and SH Precision, don't forget my bullets from David. Man I am a bullet freak. Hornady, Noslers, Speers, Sierras, you can pretty much find them here! I am a firm believer in matching the proper bullet to the mission at hand! On some missions one bullet may be favored over another, but on the next mission it very well be the other bullet favored for a task at hand! Some tasks there will be several bullets that may qualify! Depends on the mission! I have lot's of uses for Woodleighs! In fact one particular bullet comes to mind and it's the 340 gr 416 caliber soft that Woodleigh makes. I used it in 2005 in Tanzania in one of my Win M70s in 416 Rem. It hammered everything and performance was superb (I already knew this because I had tested it rather thoroughly before hand-Test work not valid my ass) and when I came up with the 416 B&M my thoughts were heavy to that bullet, and in fact had decided that if the 416 B&M could have only one bullet it would be that fine 340 gr 416 caliber bullet! That would hammer bears, lions and anything with thin skin! Put it in a 18 inch 416 B&M and have a handy, fast, bear and lion fighting rifle with the 340 at 2450 fps! Yep, I love Woodleighs! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael458, Got some exciting news yesterday. The owner and maker of Beartooth Bullets might be joining us here! He's really excited about the work you are doing, and when I told him about the TBP thread and your testing, he got excited and very interested. He wants to know how much work you have done with Cast bullets, as I know there was much about them ealier on in this thread, and wants to see what you guys will think about BTB after your testing. He's a really good guy with a lot of knowledge and a kind heart. He will shoot you straight and tell it like it is. He has had them used against many Buff, including one very memorable case where two bullets struck the skull and spine of a buff as it charged, dropping it on the spot. Sure he can tell us more, but I find that fantastic performance for cast bullets! I own a pile of them, and I know they work great on NA game, but have never thought they would work on frontal shots on Nyeti. Have a little video for you. http://beartoothbullets.com/WMV_Files/45-70-525.wmv -Extremist "Pain is weakness leaving the body" -Instructor Victory in life is dying for what you were born to do. "I hope you live forever" -300 "Never judge an enemy by his words, he might turn out to be a better shot then a writer" http://www.gscustomusa.com | |||
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Michael, You’ve most likely made a very good decision to exclude RN solids for your future testing…it should eliminate wasteful discussion as to why they perform in the field but fail in the testing boxes. Yesterday I was perusing the full thread and thought I’d post a few pearls of commentary that I found which might explain to some recent participants why the testing is being conducted as it currently is and perhaps why the testing material is now very consistent in its composition and extremely tough on all bullets that are subjected to it. Unfortunately Alf, as most know, has eliminated his posts from the thread or I could have included a few of his posts that also lead to your current testing process. I have also annotated one of your early posts in red so that perhaps everyone can understand that you truly do not hate RN solids, just that you believe you have found a more reliable bullet with the FN solids… I also apologize for the length of this post:
Again, I appologize for the length of this post. There are other pearls within this thread, if you have not yet done so I do recommend that you fully read this entire thread with an open mind as it has been created fully with an open mind. Jim  "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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First, let me once again give thanks to Michael et al for all this very good and important work. I am, as yet, unable to contribute much but hope I will be able to in future. I plan on returning to Africa next year for my first DG hunt, for buffalo and maybe elephant. The rifle will be a 458WM. From this thread, I have concluded that some of the better bullet choices would be Barnes TSX and Barnes Banded Solids (please correct me if I have mis-interpreted). I confess that I have neither read nor absorbed this thread in its entirety, but I have a question. For these two bullet types, in a 458WM, what bullet weight(s) would you all recommend, based on this test work. Thanks, Hugh | |||
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Hey Hugh Glad you are back with us! You are more than welcome, and no thanks needed! I look forward to your contributions! Well I will give you what I think and have done with 458 Win in past years, and in recent years the 458 B&M which is the same case capacity as the Win. Both coming up a tiny bit short on capacity with 500s in my opinion. Now in both cartridges we can get 2150 fps with the 500s with little or no issue or problem, with most bullets. The Woodleighs and Hornadys and maybe the Swift, might have to look on the Swift I don't recall. But I have always felt that a 450 gr bullet would do just as good and get that little extra thump to between 2200-2250 fps with ease. So that is the combination I have been using for the Winchester and my 458 B&M. I have not tried the 450 TSX of late, I have had such good luck with the 450 Swift I just have not needed to or felt the need to do so. I really should get some 450 TSXs in the near future and give them a workout. I have zero doubt as to their excellent performance, I just wonder about bullet length in my 458 B&M and that is all, I have to be under 3 inches overall. So a 450 TSX might push that a bit. As for the solid part of the issue I have had extremely good results with the 450 Barnes Banded. I could not ask for better, and with very little tweaking can get the Swift and the Barnes Solid to the same POI at 50 yds in all my rifles. I think recently someone had a good load for a 458 Win and the 450 TSX, and with the extra mag length you would have in a 458 Win then you could go with either the 450 TSX or Swift I think and be in great shape! All backed with the Barnes Banded. Other choices that are also great for the solids would be the North Forks. As long as everything works well in the gun, you would be set to jet with these bullets! Stay tuned and keep me posted! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Thanks Michael. Your advice is much appreciated. Hugh | |||
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Hugh Welcome. Capo Thanks for bringing some of those things back. We are at 60 pages on this thread, it's huge, not everyone reads through the whole thing anymore, I wish some would try to read a little closer, before jumping the Gun so to speak! It does get terribly frustrating to repeat things over and over. I suspect my terminating all round nose tests will most likely end any issues, since about 99.9% of the BS concerned the "Almighty RN". Well, that problem is done with. Thanks again. Extreme I would welcome Mr. Beartooth as most know. I don't shoot as many cast bullets as I used too, hardly any these days, but they are fun to shoot, and give great alternatives. I think there is much we could all learn from the cast bullets. We have some excellent folks right here with us that have a lot of experience with good cast bullets, Whitworth and JWP475 come to mind, RIP does quite a bit of cast bullet shooting I think. Sam and Corbin do some cast in their doubles I believe too. We have Sharpsguy where we did the tests for him, which Where are you Sharps, have not heard from you in a while, still out there? So there is a tremendous amount of interest and knowledge here concerning cast, so Mr. Beartooth please step up! In fact I believe I might have some Beartooth bullets around here somewhere, let me see, no, not down there, wait maybe they are up here on the shelf, why sure, here they are;   HEH Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Finished up a little test work today. First I found some .500 caliber bullets at midway recently, and of course I can never pass up some new bullets, and especially solids. Satern 380 gr solids. Went over to the website listed and it's more of a machine shop, and I could not find anything about the bullets. So...................  I suppose they are ok and of course for minor jobs on thin skin they would be ok, but a little rough around the edges I think. I have not measured meplat size, I think it's a wee bit short. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Now moving on to the 470 Capstick tests that I have been talking about. I had 3 bullets to test, 500 Hornady DGS, 500 Barnes Banded, and some Old Stock Trophy Sledghammers. I bought the T bullets several years ago, bulk packed by Midway, good deal, cheap in other words. I really had not shot many of them, having had so many issues with my 470s. Many know I have bitched, moaned and groaned about the 470 Capsticks I have had for several years, first one thing, then another. Last of the major issues is that I felt strongly the barrels were oversized, well it's going to be pretty obvious to even you after today's post. Let's start with the 470 500 gr Hornady DGS. This is a bullet that is really growing on me. I had bad luck with the 458 480 version, can only figure I got a bad box since they were some of the first ones on the market, had an extremely good test with the 500 gr 458 version and just this week the 570 gr .510 did a fantastic job in Sams Double. Mike has had decent tests I think with the 470 DGS and I suspect it's close on meplat size, if he had a faster twist I think the bullet would do better, or if it had just slightly larger meplat I think it would help. If I had any rifling in my barrel it might have also done better!!!!!!!    Of course the performance is no slight on the bullet in my opinion. There is Not One Tiny SCRATCH of engraving on this bullet. I can run my thumb nail across it and it's smooth as a babies but! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael You certainly do have an oversize barrel !!! Just a question, if the bullets didn't engrave the rifling, did they spin at all or do you think they were like a ball fired out of a shotgun ? Just fired straight on, no spin ? | |||
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Next up is the 500 Trophy Sledgehammers. Like I said, I got these years ago, can't tell you much about them at all. Midway had them bulk packed in repackaged Midway boxes, in fact did not even advert them as T bullets. They gave some light engraving and while I have not taken time to measure them they must be slightly larger than the Hornady or the Barnes.    http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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500N I can't see how they could have had any spin on them with no engraving???? What has fooled me for a few years on these guns, I have shot literally hundreds of rounds out of them doing load data when I first got them. Looking back each gun has had over 400 rounds shot through each of them. Now, I do load data on these at 50 yds. I have never had a bullet hit sideways in the paper, and accuracy has been excellent in some cases, and far more than adequate in all??? How can that possibly be when we see there is no engraving on the bullet? I would have never even known this had I not done some test work a couple of years ago with some other solids! I can't explain it. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Now boys, this is going to knock your socks completely off! It did mine for sure. I wish Sam or someone had been testing with me that could attest to this, because I am quite sure some of you are not going to believe this, I know I wouldn't myself had I not seen it with my own eyes! I have no good explanation of how this could occur. This is the 500 Barnes Banded, and I am starting first with close ups of the bullets that once again have NO ENGRAVING at all, not a scratch on them!    http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I thought I would show what is done with these bullets after the tests. Well, first all the information you see on the little posts is inputed into a spreadsheet that is kept for each caliber. I have separate data sheets for each caliber, and then for each cartridge within that caliber. For instance, all .458 caliber bullets are on one data sheet, then separated by cartridge, 45/70, 458 Winchester, 458 B&M, 458 Lott. Then our new sheet with all the bullet measurements as has been posted here, data is entered. Then the bullets are placed in an individual plastic bag along with the label you see on the posts.  Then each bullet test is placed in a larger bag organized by cartridge and placed on the board for later review when needed.  All data is backed up on another computer, and in addition an external hard drive. Just FYI http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Michael, You seriously need to have that barrel slugged! Edit Added:And, you are very meticulous my friend! Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Michael When I recovered bullets, I used to write a note on where they went, entry to recovered postion, load data / velocity and what they it on the way through, then wash and dry them before putting them in a bag like you with the notes and send them off to Woodleigh. Makes interesting reading when you look back at them. | |||
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Michael Re spin, I wonder whether they do spin a bit regardless of the lack of engraving because of the air in the barrel / the rifling ? | |||
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Michael... You are the Smithsonian of recovered bullets.  577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Jim Oh no doubt it needs to be slugged. Sam is going to help me with that next time he gets down here. Hell I have had the guns for years, I am in no hurry. And it ain't like I will be taking them anywhere anyway! 500N Oh yes, I do the animal tissue bullets like that too, when I can. What I have been meaning to do, and have neglected to do, is enter the animal tissue bullets on the same data sheets. I have all the info about them, but just never took the time to enter into the data sheets. Yes, good stuff. Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Well according to RIP he investigated these rifles and says they have 1;10 twist rates, pretty fast, and a good rate in my mind for them. Maybe they are getting something just passing down the barrel, ?????????????????? http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Have you seen my load data sheets Jim? http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Only your results sheet logs if they are one and the same. If not please share. Your results sheets are equally meticulous for the data that you capture...but the plastic baggie storage is truly neat. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Yes, I think they might get something. Anyway, all interesting. Re your records, you are very meticulous. I found it is so important to write everything down as the odd time i didn't, by the time you go back to do it, either I've forgotten some details or they are blurred - or the recoveries got confused So I started to actually bag and write on the sticker on the outside of the bag as soon as they were recovered. Made life a lot easier. | |||
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Michael, a 1:10" twist rate would be great but geez, what on earth did they spec for the bore and groove dimensions? Have you measured the maximum diameter of the bullets that show slight engraving? Perhaps a .473" bore and .483" groove diameters? Or something close but equally ridiculous. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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Oh yes, I sent you one of the terminal data sheets I think. I have not sent you a Load Data sheet. They can get rather extensive. Then start adding the pressure data sheets. Whew! I even keep all field notes, even after they are entered in the data sheets. Oh, and every single rifle has it's own file, with every target shot, and load data put in the file on every load tested. 500N I simply must get the data entered after every session. If I don't, something might happen to it, so I make it a point to do that immediately after a session, or risk getting lazy. Just make it part of the routine after a day on the range! M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Jim The only true .474 caliber bullets I have are the Swift A's. My Woodleighs come in at .4725, zero engraving, Barnes at .473, no engraving, I don't recall the T bullets, but light engraving. I think you and Sam might be thinking along the same lines. There is no telling, I thought a lot of the folks at the Custom Shop, but when it got to these rifles they didn't have a clue. NOw how about those Barnes? Is that crazy? M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Mike Why not try some 476 Westly Rich. .476" bullets ? or swage down a few 475 No.2 .483" bullets ? (Both of those are from Woodleigh) It might give you an answer as to the correct bullet diameter based on the engraving you get. . | |||
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Michael, this is totally off the wall, but wrt the 470 Capstick, have you measured the bullet diameters before and after shooting? Hugh | |||
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500N Sam thinks the same as you do, try some .476 bullets. It sure could not hurt eh? Hugh Yes, I measured bullets before hand, in fact a couple of years ago when I actually discovered it. I have just been so busy with the B&Ms and other rifles I had put them aside, until having a notion to do these tests. All Woodleighs shot look like the Hornady, oh I have not measured the Hornadys, but will, I think Mike measured these to .4735 or something? Will have to look. If so then the bore is really over. I think Sam and I will slug the barrels soon and see what's what with them. I would not be surprised at all if Winchester didn't put the wrong barrels on these guns. Since RIP says he has some experience with at least one of the guns, I have two of the guns, that's 3 out of 125 guns. I don't think there is just a fluke chance that there would be 3 rotten barrels, or even two and I got both of them? Nahhh, no way. Winchester put the wrong bore size on them, that's the only thing that makes sense. M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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The Hornady bullets measure .4735". | |||
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Michael, As the 500gr Trophy Sledgehammer Old Stock is the only bullet with light engraving…if time permits perhaps measuring a couple of unfired bullets along with the two fired bullets will put us on track for identifying your bore and groove dimensions. Jim "Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid" John Wayne | |||
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I am very intrigued with the idea that a rifle with a 1 in 100" twist or greater would fire a flatnose bullet and get 60" straight penetration in Michael's medium. I am calling a bullet with no engraving the equivalent of a 1 in 100" twist, or greater. Basically, Michael's 'no engraving' bullets are flat-nose knuckleballs. Baseball pitchers want the reverse, they want veering and zooming, which they get with their no-spin roundballs. But getting back to physics, Do flathead cylinders fly straight without spin? Is that what these tests are showing? Flathead cylinders don't need gyroscopic calculations? +-+-+-+-+-+-+ "A well-rounded hunting battery might include: 500 AccRel Nyati, 416 Rigby or 416 Ruger, 375Ruger or 338WM, 308 or 270, 243, 223" -- Conserving creation, hunting the harvest. | |||
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Tanzan I told you it would be hard to believe. If I had not done it and saw it, I would call to question! Goes to show until it is done, hard to predict a solid. I was going to repost that Barnes this morning as I believe it needs some attention. I expected all three of the solids to go flying anywhere and everywhere, I put a load of phone books on top to hopefully slow them down if they exited from the top. There was only one that exited the top, one of the Hornadys, and it managed to escape somewhere??? The rest were stable enough to stay in the box? HOW? I can't tell you, they should not have been anywhere close to being stable enough to do what they did, none of them. I can only place this phenomena square on the superiority of a flat nose design even under some horrible circumstances can and does sometimes even stabilize itself! I have no other answer for this. http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Yesterday I got a PM from one of our lurkers (and by the term lurker I mean no malice, nor disrespect and have really enjoyed our conversation) here with a great story about shooting some buffalo with a 500 Jeff and 600 gr Woodleighs at I think 2200 fps or slightly better. His story relates very much to some test work I did a few years ago with the same bullet in my 510 Wells. One must be careful about the velocity of some bullets and match that to the mission at hand. We know that SOME--not all--Woodleighs when run too fast will flatten like pancakes, sometimes turning inside of themselves on heavy game, or even some lighter game. I had to learn this the hard way myself, even after doing test work on the bullet. I like to have versatility on a hunt if at all possible. I had worked up loads for one of my 458 Lott in I think either 2003 or maybe 2004 for a trip to Zim, buff and ele on the menu. But I had also got a 400 Woodleigh PP up to a bit over 2500 fps to shoot to the same POI with the 500 Barnes and the 500 Swifts I was shooting. I figured to use the 400 Woodleigh on lighter critters if an opportunity came up. It did, shot an impala at 140 yds running away from, right up the rear. Expansion was so violent I thought I could see the insides blow without tearing skin, like a prairie dog. Impala down on the spot, broken, exploded inside, but the bullet expanded so wide that penetration had been severely limited and never reached the vitals. It was an ugly affair that I recall vividly. Not a clean kill by any stretch! The bullet had performed exactly as it did in the test work, but I had not counted on penetration being that limited, and of course one always considers a broadside shot for those instances in your minds eye, not a rear shot! I made my mind up quickly to SLOW that bullet down a lot and retest, which I did, and found that a max muzzle velocity of 2150 fps was more in order for very good terminal performance. Same here I had decided on the 600 gr Woodleigh. I had not taken proper notes when I tested this bullet some years ago, but at 2250 fps I decided it was a little too much expansion for buffalo, great bear and lion, MAYBE, but I think this bullet would be far better off at 2000 fps than higher velocity.   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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Since I was cataloging some of the 470s this morning I figured to post some older test work done several years ago with another 470 Capstick I had, before the two guns I now have from Winchester. All soft points. First up is another lesson on velocity--Some Bullets, Velocity is not Always Your Friend! Not only that, but sometimes it does not take much more velocity to get into a bind! In this case 50 fps and 25 yds difference!   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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| One of Us |
Here is very typical Swift A Frame Performance. Not much to say about that!   http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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