I have a couple of 375 H&H one even has at least a 24" barrel.

I will gladly shoot whatever you have.

quote:

I have a couple of 375 H&H one even has at least a 24" barrel.

God almighty what a musket! 24 inches! Good lord!



Michael

You can bayonet game at a safe distance that way.

The mere sight of my 30" Palma rifle would put you down for the count.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
You can bayonet game at a safe distance that way.

The mere sight of my 30" Palma rifle would put you down for the count.

Bayonet Good one!

Oh the sight of a rifle with a 30" barrel would just send me to the grave, I have no doubt!

Again my friend, damn good work and presentation. I think you could add to this by a photo of the loaded cartridge and the gun too! Hell we all like rifles, even I would like to see pics of the Doubles!

Michael

I would think the only advantage one would get from a rifle that short would be in an extreme up-close situation.They would be at a disadvatage otherwise,especially with open sights,IMO-like using the handgun in "call of duty".Then there is the danger of a misfeed with those flat-nose bullets or getting the scope in the eye with that short LOP.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would think the only advantage one would get from a rifle that short would be in an extreme up-close situation.They would be at a disadvatage otherwise,especially with open sights,IMO-like using the handgun in "call of duty".Then there is the danger of a misfeed with those flat-nose bullets or getting the scope in the eye with that short LOP.

Why would one have a miss feed with a properly tuned bolt gun???

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would think the only advantage one would get from a rifle that short would be in an extreme up-close situation.They would be at a disadvatage otherwise,especially with open sights,IMO-like using the handgun in "call of duty".Then there is the danger of a misfeed with those flat-nose bullets or getting the scope in the eye with that short LOP.

Why would one have a miss feed with a properly tuned bolt gun???

I don't believe there exists such a thing as a "properly tuned bolt gun".A properly tuned shooter-yes!

Do you remember the guy who cracked the stock at the crack of the shot? His name has three letters and starts with R.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I would think the only advantage one would get from a rifle that short would be in an extreme up-close situation.They would be at a disadvatage otherwise,especially with open sights,IMO-like using the handgun in "call of duty".Then there is the danger of a misfeed with those flat-nose bullets or getting the scope in the eye with that short LOP.

Why would one have a miss feed with a properly tuned bolt gun???

I don't believe there exists such a thing as a "properly tuned bolt gun".A properly tuned shooter-yes!

With all due respect I totaly dissagree with the statement in bold

Shootaway

I have to ask have you ever handled a Winchester M70 big bore rifle with an 18 or 20 inch barrel that comes in between 6.5 and 8 lbs depending on wood or synthetic stock??????

I have, and do, on a regular basis. Feed and function? 100% plus with all the flat nose bullets I have ever fed them and the ones I use on a regular basis, weekly, are the various Barnes Banded, North Forks, and our own designs in .500 caliber. Many 1000s of rounds of these bullets fed and functioned through Winchester M70s. Some of which are so slick you are not really sure sometimes you even picked up a round and chambered it, and have to check because it fed so smoothly you could not feel it. I feel absolutely no danger at all in facing down the deadly perils one might find in the bush with one of these in my hands and a proper flat nose solid. HEH! LOL.

So what you need to do is get yourself a proper rifle and quit messing with garbage!

Michael

Do you remember the famous inaugural speech by one your presidents.The one that starts with,"ask not what your country can..."? Now,substitute the word rifle for country.

Thanks Michael, I'll conclude this post with the pic.

The only .375 I have sports(so sorry M458)...a 34" tube! Before you go visit your grave sight just yet, I built this beast nearly 10 years ago for military applications. It's a ultra long range rifle. Carbon fiber wrapped barrel, .9"+ at the muzzle, heavy duty 3-12 scope with 56mm objective, lapped 3 times, no iron sights, titanium fireing pin, heavy spring, 4oz trigger, no pretty wood and a blueprinted and custom tuned action. Not your cup of tea at all. It is a 375RUM, and I get 265 grain GS's out of it at over 3200fps. It has only been used on deer, since it has never seen it's intended purpose (I've built others), but it hits like a freight train. So forgive me, but it's not my big bores....though even one of my leverguns has a 24" pipe! I just like the longer barrels, but that's only MHO. I have a heavy hand, and arm, and not very good with lightweight and short rifles. Though I do own a few. One of my absolute favorites is a 500S&W single shot Handi Rifle with a thick 20" barrel, fiber sights and not scope or mount. It is just a breeze to handle and shoot. Also my 4lb. AR with 16" barrel, but that thing feels like a toy, really.

Now I must agree with Michael and Mike. A tuned action can make a world of difference. Yes, the rifle cannot function properly without the shooter doing his part, but it's nice not to have a 15 second workout every time you must reload. I have shot a nicely tuned Winchester70 with CRF, and they are one of the finest rifles you can put your hands one...but I have to rate Schuerman Arms as the #1 in my books. His actions are just perfect. So increadibly smooth you think it has no fireing pin in. They feed sideways, upside-down and anything inbetween. And strength, nothing even comes close. One particular thing of note is that his bolts are .8" in a 1.4 diameter reciever, allowing the round being fed up further into allignment with the bore. His locking design allows for a shorter action with the same length cartridge, shorter bolt travle (nearly an inch) and larger case body diameter to action diameter then any other rifle. So yes, the action makes a big difference.

OK, here's the pic:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Do you remember the famous inaugural speech by one your presidents.The one that starts with,"ask not what your country can..."? Now,substitute the word rifle for country.

I know "What My Rifle Can" Long before it goes out!

Michael

Extreme

Regarding your 375 rifle, I got zero issues with something like that. Different purpose altogether. And no it's not my cup of tea, but double rifles are not my cup of tea either and many other things, but that don't mean they are bad or useless, just different and all mighty fine. I am not long range sorta chap. I find it interesting, but just not my deal. So no problem from me at all, and most of the time I am just F%*$*ing with the guys with the long barrels is all anyway! HEH!

Love my Winchesters, but that's not to say there aren't some very fine custom stuff out there for sure.

I can tell you that fine looking bullet you show there what it's gonna do! Tumble in my medium! HEH HEH. But I realize that it has a totally different purpose in mind than what I would use it for, so for it's design and purpose it is a fine looking bullet.

Michael

Just curious Michael458, have you ever played with the Schuerman action? Here's a link: http://www.schuermanarms.com/ I'm in the process of helping put together 3 rifles by Schuerman (he does all the work for his actions, no parts) for family and friend, and I would just like to know if you have any input. Thank you.

I am just having some fun,Michael.I am sure your bullets and rifles work well.

Just seen your post. Yes, it will tumble, but I would really love to see how it does. The penetration, even through bone, and amount of damage. Plus, I would like to see if it stays straight. I can see this going side profile at 12" and turning news print into pulp. I am really interested in seing how it stands up to your test vs real hunting bullets. One actual account I have that brought up my inquisition was that we have one guy who buys the shorter version of this bullet, at 291 grains, and shoots moose with it! I told him he was not really in a good position, and he told me "nonsense, they drop 'em like they 'post too. No more then 7 paces I've seen".

I like joking about the barrel length too, because if you ever did see the thing (and survived) you would really get a laugh. Long action, long barrel and it sticks out like a sore thumb. I've carried this thing by sling over my shoulder going throug the woods and it snags on every branch you pass. That and it makes our shotguns look short, so my father pics on me about it all the time. My 50BMG has a 36", but at least it looks proportionate. Now one guy I talk too has a 40" barrel on his 338! So I feel better.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am just having some fun,Michael.I am sure your bullets and rifles work well.

I know! And you know how I am about it too, all of you do by now! So go ahead and poke some fun at my short guns! But rest assured, that's all that's short about me!!!!!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Just curious Michael458, have you ever played with the Schuerman action? Here's a link: http://www.schuermanarms.com/ I'm in the process of helping put together 3 rifles by Schuerman (he does all the work for his actions, no parts) for family and friend, and I would just like to know if you have any input. Thank you.

Extreme

No, I never even heard of Schuerman. But I am ignorant about a lot of things. I will go check it out when I get a chance later today.

Thanks
Michael

I don't know if y'all have seen this (I am sure some of you have) but it is among the most comprehensive testing of expanding bullets that I have seen. I particularly like the visual representation of wound-channel and penetration depth:

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-...listics/methods.html

Enjoy!

Hey 3.5

Yeah, we have seen it and it is a good body of work, very extensive and some right along the same lines as what we are doing. He touches a bit on solids and makes some really good observations, which drive right along side by side to what we have done thus far with the solids, and some of the exact same conclusions, but no where near as extensive with the solids as what we have been doing I think. For the expanding bullets it is very extensive study and very good.

Never hurts to keep bringing that to the front either! As some new lurkers here may have not seen it.

Thanks!
Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Just curious Michael458, have you ever played with the Schuerman action? Here's a link: http://www.schuermanarms.com/ I'm in the process of helping put together 3 rifles by Schuerman (he does all the work for his actions, no parts) for family and friend, and I would just like to know if you have any input. Thank you.

Extreme

No, I never even heard of Schuerman. But I am ignorant about a lot of things. I will go check it out when I get a chance later today.

Thanks
Michael

Extreme
Just now getting 2 seconds to look at Schuerman. Nice looking work. I really like the looks of that rear ghost ring sight arrangement. When I have more time I would like to dive a little deeper and take a closer look at that.

Thanks
Michael

M458 (if I may),

I have seen his rifles before and worked the action, looking it over carefully...They are second to none! Just a few quick notes of observation.

First thing you notice right away is how smooth is action is. No resistance what so ever. No loose rattle, no sticking or galling, and very little firing pin camming at the end.
The next thing you will see is that he uses 3 lugs, and they extend from the bolt body instead of the usual cut lugs. This does four very good things.
-One, the bolt need not travel the length needed to pass the lugs in the receiver by the length of the bolt lugs...so add that distance, say 1", and the action and bolt travel is that much less!
-Two, this allows for him to keep the bolt from rotating and having only the internals rotate to lock the lugs and cam the firing pin. So he now has a controlled round feed AND full case head support (Remington's 3 rings of steel)! No rifle does that.
-Three, the action has no raceways! No cutting necessary to allow the lugs to ride. This makes the action stronger and/or thinner. It also allows the acton to be turned perfectly concise and square; less chance for mistakes or inaccurate machining. It also allows him to use a full .875" bolt! Which intern allows the cartridges from the magazine to come up nearly all the way to in-line with the bore! Feeding of anything is not an issue at all.
-Four, this now allows the larger bolt to be much stronger. The lugs extend into precise recesses that allow full support of the lugs and some fantastic strengths...interesting point is that the lugs are like wedges. Blocks if you will, that do not have stress points or shear lines that give a place for fractures to form. This also allows the use of much tougher steel.

Why do I bring this up? Well, if you get a chance to call him, ask him about his strength test! I'll do a quick sum-up:
He built a jig to hold the actions and took it to a place that does static hydraulic testing with pressure sensors. This will determine the ultimate yield strength of the action, not the PSI, but actual pounds. First up, Remington 700 Mag length acton. Standing vertical, the hydraulic ram exerts force upon the bolt face...it completely fails and catastrophically collapses, shearing the lugs and bolt handle at 45,000 pounds. Next up, the Weatherby Mark V! Stands strong well past 45K! Fails in the same manner, shearing all 9 lugs and bolt handle around 80,000 lbs. Now comes a intentionally unnamed action, it 50BMG! Apparently this manufacturer has some issues with Schuerman testing his action. This lasted until 100K and the Ram maxed out...moved to a bigger press! Somewhere between 100-120K it also fails...same way.
Now the Schuerman action. It stands steady right up to 120,000lbs, then the jig he built to hold the action falls apart. So he checks the action...no, it wasn't just fine, it was done...but no catastrophic failure! He took it back to the shop and cut away the receiver. Measuring showed a gain in 1/10" of headspace, but the action held up. So he went to pressure testing. Starting at 70K psi, he had a lab work up in 5K increments all the way to 125K psi...he finally could not get the action open. He had to remove the barrel and pry the brass out of the bolt to get it to come loose...it did, and that action is in action to this day, 100% fine. I am just so impressed by his work, I cannot say enough about them.

Apologies for the hijack, but when I watched this show I could not help thinking about this thread, for some unknown reason.



Carry on!

Oh no, we're using the wrong bullets!
Thanks Charles.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
I am just having some fun,Michael.I am sure your bullets and rifles work well.

I know! And you know how I am about it too, all of you do by now! So go ahead and poke some fun at my short guns! But rest assured, that's all that's short about me!!!!!

Michael

You mean you're 6'6"??

He is infront of a charging Nyati!

North Fork is running a special for AR members.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...111041131#6111041131

Lots of good test results on the North forks.

"Comparative Bullet Anatomy: Barnes Buster"
Hack-sawed one, just wanted to see how they filled this closed copper jacket with lead,
FN nose and flat base with a dimple/recess in base.

Oh! Say, can you see the pinholes in the centers of the noses and inside the base dimples?
Not always visible externally, those central tiny craters.
Occasionally there will even be a smear of lead on the center of the nose and in the center of the base.
Molten lead must go in one end and gas is vented out the other end,
and somehow the jacket ends are sealed shut without any voids inside the lead?

What do these pinholes do to the structural integrity of the FN when performing as a penetrator?

Any Barnes Buster nose failures been seen?

















Yep,
at first fuss I got a meplat of 57% for the Barnes Buster .458/400-grainer:
Marginal for good FN penetrator shoulder-stabilization.
I am getting stuff together to test this:

Will a 1:10" twist make it penetrate any better than 1:20" twist does,
if both bullets have the same MV of about 2000 fps,
and the impact medium is SIM-TEST or wetpack or live game?

Doc M's results seem to suggest the answer.
I just want to add a little more to the basic research.

Doc RIP

Excellent data and info on the Barnes Buster. Actually this is an excellent bullet in which to test twist rates and terminal stability!!!! Excellent because it has a "marginal Meplat for caliber" percentage, at 55-57% of caliber. From tests with the 458 B&M-1:14 and the 45/70 1:20, there sure is a difference, in the .500s from 1:18 to 1:12 there is a difference, both cases, the faster twist winning the race. I very much strongly favor the 1:10 twist making a big show in your tests, even 1:12 will be a difference. With the "marginal meplat size" for terminal stability it is not capable of self terminal stabilization on it's own, faster twist rates required for optimum performance.

Now, interesting you note how does it hold up during terminals? I think put it up against the "concrete block T'Rex" and let's see? I will make a plan for that (if I don't forget).

Michael

Doc M,
You went right to the bullseye of the matter:
A concrete block impact ought to stress it some!

I suppose the Barnes Buster is designed for use from about 1400 fps to 2400 fps, or less, MV.
Not really meant for concrete, but that would be a good interrogation method to make the bullet talk.

Buster's image as a tough bullet may breakdown further if the pinholes in his nose make him more prone to fall apart.
The 57% meplat was bad enough, now this?

Ol' Buster has been good for science, however.

I would like to know how they cap him off at the nose and base and usually succeed in hiding the pinholes ...
though not quite always,
but the weights of the bullet are uniform enough to suggest there are no voids in the lead filling of the thick, copper jacket,
closed on both ends.

Congrats on the musk oxen, sorry the .416 B&M ammo got lost.
Good lesson on splitting the ammo between bags, relearned.

RIP

Excellent, and YES the entire point of the concrete block test is to provide STRESS on the bullet, for comparison from one bullet to the next, testing CONSTRUCTION of said bullets, and of course integrity of said or given bullet. If my blocks hold out I also would like to do some on an angle, to simulate those bending solids we see photos of. So far all have been straight on hits.

I see nothing wrong with the Nose Profile of the Buster. It has been a great bullet to work with because of the "Marginal Meplat Size". In the .500 and the .458s it has shown us how "Twist" can be a very "MAJOR" factor in straight line penetration. If we recall tests with the .458 version the 1;14 twist of the 458 B&M performed better than the slower 1;20 twist of the 45/70, both giving the same velocity, velocity not a factor, only twist rate. In the tests with the .500s once again same velocity 1;12 twist proved to out perform 1;18 twist rate. Then with the 50 B&M and roughly 300 fps more velocity and 1;12 this test out performed the slower velocity by good measure, velocity and twist rate being the controlling factors here!

With the marginal meplat and not being able to "Self Stabilize" the Barnes Buster has been excellent for our test work, and shown us much!

One issue I have, and it is preliminary and requires more work on my part, is Accuracy has not been quite up to par just yet. I am not so satisfied in that department thus far, at least for sure with the 458 B&M. I have only tried two loads for accuracy thus far, so I am still looking and have not had enough time to investigate that thoroughly enough at this point.

I will put this to the block t'rex for construction tests, see what happens. The rest I will leave for your tests.

I intend to investigate the Hornady DGS a bit more, especially the 500 gr in 458 caliber. I also have loaded and ready to test some in .510 and 470. As we know I was astounded at the good performance of the 500 gr 458 over the 480 gr 458 in my last tests? Therefore have had to reevaluate my thoughts on the DGS completely. Preliminary thoughts are that the meplat is close to marginal, but with proper twist that can be overcome. I like the nose profile of the bullet, nothing wrong in my opinion there. But, all bears a great deal more tests, and evaluate at that point again.

How about the Sim Test? When will that be online and ready? Spring has sprung? I suppose you are working with the "Find the Time" factor on that!

Michael

You guys have heard me "rant and rave" on this subject a few times, but after my recent experiences in the arctic I simply must go there once again. Subject: Differences between simple Hunters and Shooters!

My little muskox shoot was one of those simple "hunts" where we were not the only ones in camp. Several hunters were there, in fact I think a total of 8. Well, I missed the first 3 days waiting on ammo, so had just a passing with 4 of the guys, so can comment little on them. My friend and I being two of the 8, left two nice guys in camp for my last couple of days to get acquainted with a bit. Both, simple hunters. Nice guys, intelligent, one fairly experienced, the other getting started. Neither of them "shooters".

The more experienced of the two has hunted Africa, buffalo, elephant and so forth. Really did not even get details on what rifle or ammo, bullets or anything. Not sure he even knew to be honest. But there was little common ground to speak on such matters, he more interested in other subjects I think. His friend, the other chap, however being less experienced was very interested in rifles, bullets and what have you. Both getting ready for a trip later this year to Africa. Well my boy has himself a brand new Kriegoff (Spelling?) in 470 Nitro that he is going to use! Well brings my thoughts direct back to Mike and his test work really fast! So I am telling him about this work and he has great interest, while the the other guy has little. Our chap with the 470 had bought himself a "case" of 470 ammo, but did not know what he had, manufacture, bullet type, nothing. Of course I am telling him how good the North Fork bullet is and how it performed so well for Mike, and some of Mikes experiences and so forth. He is very interested, and really wanted to get off on the right track! Other guy, he says "Oh just bring the rifle over and we will get it shooting", totally missing the point altogether! And had no interest at all? In fact this guy had lost his rifle on the way to the hunt, or should I say the Airlines had lost it. He had zero concern about it and just used someone elses (as I had to) without a care, made no difference to him and he had no interest in what he used to do his hunt at all. While myself I was distraught and damn near come close to coming home without hunting at all without my ammo and rifle! Honestly, it was close. I almost flipped a coin, and stated I had no interest in just shooting with another rifle, and held out to the end to do so. In the end I decided I had come this far, I was not coming back again, so ended up shooting with another rifle, very much against my will. While the other guy it made no difference to him at all about the rifle he used. While there is nothing wrong with either one way or the other, it does show a huge difference in those that are in the field. Of the 8 hunters in camp, I am quite sure I was the only "shooter" there.

But all is not lost, the one fellow with the 470 was extremely interested in my rantings, took my card and I expect to hear from him soon!

Michael

Tanzan

You out there anywhere lurking? If so, take note. I had loaded the 225 gr Barnes X for my buddy to use on the muskox in his 338 Winchester, as I recall around 2850 fps or so. I was not present for his two muskox, but he got two without any issue. I used his rifle with the 225 X and they worked perfectly. Only one shot each, 1st one down in 10 yds or less, second one down in 10 ft or less. Not really a point or need for second shots at all, and I never shoot only once, but did so with both of these. Complete pass thru, no need to dig bullets. Trauma to targets was evident, both took them hard! My buddy says the same on his two. I think you can use the 338 225 Barnes TSX with great confidence! My conclusions from the test work also!

Michael

quote:

Tanzan

You out there anywhere lurking? If so, take note. I had loaded the 225 gr Barnes X for my buddy to use on the muskox in his 338 Winchester, as I recall around 2850 fps or so. I was not present for his two muskox, but he got two without any issue. I used his rifle with the 225 X and they worked perfectly. Only one shot each, 1st one down in 10 yds or less, second one down in 10 ft or less. Not really a point or need for second shots at all, and I never shoot only once, but did so with both of these. Complete pass thru, no need to dig bullets. Trauma to targets was evident, both took them hard! My buddy says the same on his two. I think you can use the 338 225 Barnes TSX with great confidence! My conclusions from the test work also!

Michael

Yes, thank you for the note. From an earlier post on this list I found your muskox report and picture. Very nice.

I understand your concern about using 'your' rifle. For me, it always means more in a hunt to use one's own equipment and one's own loads. I used to fletch my own arrows, too, but don't have time for bowhunting or opportunity to practice these days.

And yes, it's nice to hear the report on the 225 in .338WM. They are a pretty bullet in that light calibre and just about do it all, anywhere (no elephant, but 'if-needed' would work for buffalo). At the moment we now have 185 grainers (for longish impala and antelope 250yards+--no way buffalo), plenty of 225s and some 250s, all Barnes. It will be August or Sept before I will be able to tune the loads to the rifles in Africa. But we have a lot of confidence in all of the rounds, expecially with those tests way back at pages 13-18 or so!

My 'big concern' these days is knowing the limits of the 416 mono-solids in 1 x 16.5" twist. Not that I have much choice except to use the 350 grain Barnes Banded Solid.

If and when you load up some 338 stuff again, you should know that Barnes has two new bullets for 2010-- a 265 grain TTSX (that's the blue-tip versions) and a 285 grain TSX. Both are about 1.79" long, but should still fly straight in a 1x10" twist, and once they open up, straight penetration would be a given. I would expect them to be candidates for 'over-18" penetration' in your newprint-magazine tough medium.

Doc M,
No doubt I qualify for the title "Shooter" also.
However, I prefer the more uppity "Rifleman" if I must be called a name.

I am waiting on Brian at SSK for the .458 B&M, 1:10" twist, 20"-long barrel.
I have an H&R 1871 Buffalo Classic 45/70 Govt. with 1:20" twist, 32"-long barrel.
It should be easy enough to work up loads for the 400-grain Buster at 2000 fps MV in both of those.
Then maybe I can get the .458 B&M up to 2400 fps.
First verify your observations of twist effects on penetration by Buster,
then see how higher velocity affects Buster in the fast twist.

Will do the spring cleaning in the garage and get a Sim-Test refrigerator installed there.
Then a load of Sim-Test.
That will be manageable to haul back and forth to the range with the I-STAB (Iron-Sim-Test Artificial Buffalo).
Dang, if only I had more play time!

Good .338 poop from 416Tanzan,
I may finally venture into some TTSX bullets to see if those .338/265-grainers are accurate in a .338 Lapua, versus 300-grain SMK, versus 250-grain Nosler BBT.
Cup and core or monometal, which will be most accurate?
My .338 Lapua barrels are 1:10" twist,
one a 28"-long Lothar Walther on a Dakota,
the other a 23" long Ruger take-off barrel installed on a CZ 550 Magnum. Hey!
It was very accurate as a Ruger MkII .338 WinMag, and had the threads cut off, was re-threaded and screwed onto the CZ with all the Ruger roll-stamping turned below the wood line of the stock.
Stick that in a CZ Kevlar stock and it is "shooter" and "hunter" to satisfy any but the most discriminating "rifleman."

Back to Buster, a most interesting bullet:
accuracy trial coming here too, wondering about how concentric Buster is with that lead-filled thick copper jacket closed on both ends by sorcery?
Howdaydoodat?

416 Tanzan

I think one has a reason to have concern in 416 with anything slower than 1:14 twist rate! I know now that I cannot "reliably" stabilize for terminal penetration various 400s in my 416 B&M and the velocities it can run 400s, 2250-2300 fps. Taking a proper 400 gr Solid--Barnes and North Fork with a 1:14 that stability can be increased with velocity above 2400 fps! I would venture to say (not 100% sure of course) but with a 1;16.5 twist one would need some velocity to stabilize a proper nose profile and proper size meplat. I would also want some velocity to make sure the 350s remained stabilized too. If I ever build another 416 B&M for myself I will do a 1;12 which as I understand is commonly available. My 416 B&Ms were built around 350 or less bullets to begin with, so I do not have many concerns on that front.

I will take a look for some of the heavy 338s TSXs and see what we see. I think you are right, penetration would be great with those!

Michael

Doc RIP

I know that you qualify in the same category as myself. And as always you have such a way with words! I also agree that "Rifleman" is a much better term than shooter, and sure that you qualify for that fine term. However, in my case the connotation of "Rifleman" might lead someone to think I had termed myself "Rifleman" because of a great shooting ability, which I am afraid I might come up a bit short on myself! I will however "endeavor to persevere" to live up to the term "Rifleman" maybe someday!

I have not spoke to Brian now in a couple of weeks! Probably will give him a call this week and try to remember to see how he is doing with your 458 B&M. Your test with the Buster will be excellent. In some of my 20 inch 458 B&Ms I have pushed 2370 fps with various 400 gr bullets with 70/RL 7. I would think you could touch 2400 fps without having to worry too much about pressures, but it will be close to the top end! I did send you all the data you need right? If not let me know, I surely did!

As for the Busters and getting the "Lead In", I don't know Howdaydoodat? Magic I think!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
416 Tanzan

I think one has a reason to have concern in 416 with anything slower than 1:14 twist rate! I know now that I cannot "reliably" stabilize for terminal penetration various 400s in my 416 B&M and the velocities it can run 400s, 2250-2300 fps. Taking a proper 400 gr Solid--Barnes and North Fork with a 1:14 that stability can be increased with velocity above 2400 fps! I would venture to say (not 100% sure of course) but with a 1;16.5 twist one would need some velocity to stabilize a proper nose profile and proper size meplat. I would also want some velocity to make sure the 350s remained stabilized too. If I ever build another 416 B&M for myself I will do a 1;12 which as I understand is commonly available. My 416 B&Ms were built around 350 or less bullets to begin with, so I do not have many concerns on that front.

I will take a look for some of the heavy 338s TSXs and see what we see. I think you are right, penetration would be great with those!

Michael

With the 400 grain in 416 and a good meplat, it is not so much velocity that is needed but a shorter bullet length. That is why the lead- core flat-nose do all right. And that is why I use 350 grain flat-nose, even though driving the bullet at 2650+ fps.